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Thread: So what's with the Elder God anyway?

  1. #1
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    Default So what's with the Elder God anyway?

    I finished replaying Defiance yesterday, after playing through Soul Reaver and Soul Reaver 2, pretty much just looking for all the signs of things that were planned for the series but didn't come, like I was talking about in my other topic, and I've just been wondering about the Elder God after watching all the scenes again.
    He again and again claims to be the engine of life, the still center of the turning Wheel of Fate, to exist "Here and everywhere. Now and always." He seems to be having conversations with Raziel across time, to know who he is when Raziel goes back to the time of Ariel's death, seeming to already know Raziel and have instructed him before.
    Yet the problem with all this of course comes with the end of Defiance. Moebius thinks Kain is dead, and while I can understand why (after closely examining everything said and with speculation), the idea that the Elder God could be surprised by Kain, and still be the "Still center of the wheel" and "Outside of time" (as he says in cut dialogue from Soul Reaver) seems impossible. The thing that makes sense is that he's faking it, that he goes along with time like everyone else, or else how could be possibly have been tricked by Kain? He should already know that Kain survives and beats him up.
    He has to be faking this, but looking at Soul Reaver 2, it does seem that he really does know about Raziel. People like to talk about Raziel's "free will", but a major flaw in the story is that this "free will" is never explained properly. What does it mean? Kain talks quite a lot about how everyone just plays out their parts in history in Soul Reaver 2.

    "You must understand, our presence here doesn’t alter history. You and I meet here because we are compelled to – we have always met here."

    So Kain and Raziel are also just playing out the parts fate has written for them. Raziel can't just choose to change things whenever he wants. Both Raziel and Kain change history at various points in the story. First Kain changes history by killing William, then Raziel changes history by sparing Kain, and finally Kain pulls the Reaver out of Raziel, and it's hard to say just who was changing history there, maybe both of them.
    Yet all of this seems to be thrown away in Defiance. Kain and Moebius both talk about Raziel having a choice.

    "Because of your re-making, you are the one unbound creature, the one among us all that truly has free will. You have a choice, Raziel -- "

    Raziel has a choice? How can he possibly choose differently than what's happened? Kain has already lived through this timeline as his younger self, fighting the Hylden when they try to conquer Nosgoth with their new age Sarafan. Why does Kain try to convince Raziel not to revive Janos when he knows already that Janos will come back? History is what it is.

    "History is irredeemable.
    Drop a stone into a rushing river – the current simply courses around it and flows on as if the obstruction were never there. You and I are pebbles, Raziel, and have even less hope of disrupting the time-stream.
    The continuum of history is simply too strong, too resilient."

    How can these pebbles possibly change history in this way? Kain bet everything on those paradox moments in Soul Reaver 2, but now he thinks that Raziel can change history when he wants?

    Raziel: "So this has all been arranged, every step of the way. And Kain thought I truly had free will."

    Moebius: "Oh, but you do. And there's the greatest triumph of all, to have compelled the one player who could choose into doing exactly what we required."

    The one player who can choose? How? Raziel is just playing out his role in history like anyone else. Raziel wanted to change history and save Janos, but instead ended up leading his former self and the other Sarafan Inquisitors to Janos. It's because of Raziel heading to Janos and trying to save him that Janos was killed in the first place.

    And all this is a problem I noticed while playing Defiance. Raziel's free will, Turel being Hash'ak'gik, Vorador supposedly being the last Vampire besides Kain, even though there were other Vampires being executed as Kain headed to Vorador's execution: "As I wandered about more, the shrieking and cheering became more apparent and defined. There was some sort of gathering to the south; for with each cheer I smelled an outpour of blood." and finally the plan for Kain to travel to Avernus Cathedral and leave the Soul Reaver for his younger self to find, even though Moebius had to get it before him, and the sword was supposed to be legendary before Kain found it. It seems as if they were forgetting just what they had established before. I know it's unrealistic to expect a series that goes on and on to be totally consistent, but it's strange how much they seemed to lose connection to previously established plot elements from the past games.
    I can understand mistakes like saying that Vorador and Kain were the last Vampires, and even the mistake with Mortanius saying his "Come to be my undead son" line at the wrong time, but things like the plan with Kain leaving the Soul Reaver at Avernus Cathedral are pretty glaring. Also, I still am bothered by how Turl being Hash'ak'gik doesn't really work when you start to closely examine the information from Blood Omen.
    I am of course a fan, but playing through the games again, I just notice all these things. I guess I kind of got off the subject of the Elder God, but whatever. I just wish this all made more sense, and that they actually explained what the hell was up with Raziel's "free will" and that they actually explained how Moebius could have been tricked by Kain. I think I know what they were going for, but they could have dropped some more clues there. But then again, with Moebius, they pretty much made the most unstoppable enemy ever, so maybe they wrote themselves into a corner with him.

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    As it's been reasoned out, all else in Nosgoth need to have two Reavers converge in order to change anything (which are just two Raziel's anyway), and of course all else would have to be fated to that end in the first place. Raziel is the one unbound who could alter things and choose on the fly. Though, he still winds up choosing a path that doesn't derail things too badly. He still winds up entering the sword, but if the thoughts on Defiance are that it's time still not completely set, perhaps, until Raziel does enter the blade, then his ability to alter things seem to be even greater, which might explain the lack of temporal flux the two times Raziel is engaged with his wraith blade self around the physical sword. What Moebius does explicitly reveal is that, at least during this aftermath from Raziel's refusal to kill elder Kain in SR2, he, and all that he chooses, is shrouded from "us," which means he and the EG. He states that every path he might choose leads to the same outcome, though, in killing Kain. That he and the EG cannot foresee that Kain is not actually dead has also been reasoned that during this shrouded moment, where time isn't completely set, even those that see the full timeline, can't pinpoint events right now. The EG might exist outside of time and in all time periods, but if there's a blind spot now due to Raziel's choices -- where so many possibilities exist that it's all basically a blur -- he won't exactly know what's happening inside of it, even though he exists through it.

    In these events, he'd possibly have to jostle in his mind hundreds of "memories" of things that never happen, and so Kain still being alive and still being able to fight the EG at this point, without the EG able to focus to know what the real outcome is, it's not so farfetched.


    As for Turel, I am not sure what's bothering you about him being Hash, or at least, labeled with the tile of Hash'ak'gik.

    Vorador is the last vampire *not yet captured,* which is probably all that he meant. To him, especially looking as depressed as he did when Raziel walks in, the others are pretty much dead already. Raziel has to remind him about Kain. Oh yeah, Kain's still out there... Given his circumstances in trying to focus on the last stand, as it were, it's perfectly understandable that Vorador says what he says. Certainly, if Moebius kills him, which is what he notes, that will end the possibility in his mind of the vampires living on, as Vorador knows he's the only one left to sire more. Kain cannot, as we find out in BO2 (until he finds a new way through necromancy a century after that time period).

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    If you have trouble figuring out how the Elder God's perception of the world works, you should totally read Burnt Norton for a cheat sheet. It was a clear influence ("at the still point of the turning world...").

    The plan for Kain to leave the Soul Reaver in Avernus was thrown away. The final story draft was instead going to include a post-credits "stinger" scene where he leaves it at the foot of the Pillars (for Moebius to find). This was obviously scrapped too, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zulgbrtzchllha View Post
    Also, I still am bothered by how Turl being Hash'ak'gik doesn't really work when you start to closely examine the information from Blood Omen.
    Worked excellently for me, to be honest, unless you're thinking of certain apocrypha from the Silicon Knights FAQ! Victims being sacrificed to Turel on the altar of the world ties the backstories of Blood Omen and Soul Reaver together quite well indeed.
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    The Hylden-
    I guess your explanation makes sense, but that's still the whole problem. The game doesn't explain this stuff at all. We get a few hints, like Moebius saying "Raziel is shrouded from us", but there just aren't even enough hints to really put everything together. The first time I beat Defiance, I thought it was cool seeing Kain and Raziel finally take down Moebius and beat up the Elder God, but I was completely confused because it just seems to go against so much that was established in SR2. I'm not saying that they should have explained everything, just that there should have been enough hints for us to piece everything together. Instead, it seems like we fans have to just piece everything together and try to figure it out ourselves.

    Turel being Hash'ak'gik seems fine at first. It even seems that they're sticking to what was said before:

    "And Hash'ak'gik spoke to the world, and all who heard trembled.
    "'Bring me your first born, and shed their blood on the altar of the world, so I might take nourishment from them.
    "Do this without question, or suffer my wrath for eternity.'
    "And its will was done."

    Everything seems fine. Blood sacrifice? Well, Vampires need blood. The "first born" part even works for Raziel being something of a reference there. But the more you dig into Hash'ak'gik in Blood Omen, the less it actually works. The blood sacrifice is clearly actually a reference to the Spirit Forges. "Shed your blood for me, and these artifacts will be yours." Piecing everything together, you can see that the Spirit Forges are tied to Hash'ak'gik. The voice isn't the same, but it is similar, not that it really means that much of course since Ottmar sounds like Vorador, since they only had so many voices. But the Spirit Forges also have statues of demons in them, just like Hash'ak'gik's forces.
    These places are ancient, dating back at least to the time that Hash'ak'gik's cult was powerful in the past. While it's not stated in any way, the game also suggests that the book Kain finds in Avernus is old as well. Hash'ak'gik speaking to the people and terrifying them into worship has to date back to the old times when his cult was more powerful.
    So the blood sacrifice is about the Spirit Forges. Somehow he's getting something from these blood sacrifices, and he and his forces give out trinkets like flays and such to encourage this. So when Kain uses these things to make his life easier, he's actually helping his enemy.
    So this is the problem. Azimuth was supposed to have summoned Turel with one of Moebius's time streaming devices (the one you find in Blood Omen after killing her), and used him for the worship. But the problem is that the cult of Hash'ak'gik is obviously much older than her. Hash'ak'gik's words must have been spoken quite some time before Vorador killed the Circle even, so it doesn't link up.
    I could also provide information to show that the game does in fact also make it quite clear that Mortanius is being possessed by Hash'ak'gik, but I don't think it's totally relevant to this. If you play through Blood Omen again, you'll see that the idea of Turel being Hash'ak'gik doesn't work out as well as it seems. The more you examine everything unfortunately, the more it seems it doesn't work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aevum View Post
    The final story draft was instead going to include a post-credits "stinger" scene where he leaves it at the foot of the Pillars (for Moebius to find). This was obviously scrapped too, though.
    So, Kain was suppose to save Nosgoth in the final story draft? What about the Elder God?
    In the meantime, you'd best burrow deep.

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    Re: Elder's Claims---
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulgbrtzchllha View Post
    "the still center of the turning Wheel of Fate,"
    We see the truth of this in the spirit world, which is still and Elderized. Either 1) he's taken over the reality core (and is simply done), and now his growth is headed out into the material realm to conquer it next.... or 2) he's infesting spectral as part of an ongoing "inward siege" of some Deeper Wheel Region we haven't seen yet which he's busy surrounding, choking, clogging up, ripping open, feasting upon, and using the energies for some endgame transformation that leaves the world a dead husk. (We really should follow a soul's transit through this freaking wheel as part of the finale that shows empowered souls tearing down EG's infrastructure and returning the Wheel to working order again. That'd be the poops).
    "Here and everywhere. Now and always."
    These are his expansionist wishes, him reaching for the stars. But his persistance is making them more true every century, so they count as "junior facts" already and if he removes all challengers like Kain, they'll become true facts.
    "Outside of time"
    I like this better as the truth. You're denying yourself a great villain if you don't let him have this. He's proven he does see out into the whole maze of time, knows the paths of events future and past. There's just some things that rearrange the maze on him is all, and the new paths are then as new to him as to everyone else (but he soon gains the advantage again by climbing up above the timeline and getting a good look at the new shape of history). Moe's and Elder's ignorance in Defiance is because Raz was making quick free-will decisions and they couldn't keep up. Spirit Forge snapped Ariel back from the distant future. It may have slapped & dizzied EG too.

    he's faking it, or else how could be possibly have been tricked by Kain?
    I'm willing to let the pillars+reaver and the spirit forge+reaver be major "players" on the same level as Elder "God," meaning that Raziel's actions at the spirit forge may have created a flashbomb that blinded EG with power (he even cries out like he's being blinded or affected by the light of truth that defeats false histories similarly to how paradox changes can catch him offguard). Paradox might have some close cousins is what I'm suggesting. Jr. Paradox events, or other species of powerful disturbances that also disrupt a Time-Spanned character's ability to predict things. EG greedily grabs at the pillars in SR2 to lay claim to a powerful weapon that could banish his arse in a stranger eon, so he's telling us the vampires are still "players", still contenders who have a chance or else he wouldn't be guarding the Forge & Pillars. He knows those constructs are on a par with him, like another "god." So I'm giving permission for one "god" to surprise another in this series. Use one godlike power to get past the foresight of another godlike power. Canon Lovers hear this and say: "But that's non canonical!" Because that's all they can say. They're trapped within the canon the way humans have no free will in LOK. Which brings us to...

    Raziel's "free will", but a major flaw in the story is that this "free will" is never explained properly. What does it mean?
    A doubled soul, wraith fused to wraith blade like a nonstop personal paradox resonance, always halfway outside of time because one of the Razzes was in its proper time but the other wasn't, yet they walked the world together as proof of the impossible, tracing a circular path through time that allowed him to approach the infinite and cross over into the timeless realm and back again. (He switched to the Ouroborous circle path that sustains itself. This freed him from the linear mortal existence that's slaved to the Wheel! -- he became his own wheel and thus a threat to EG, in the same league and capable of seeing & hurting the squid. His soul re-emerged from the abyss unfated, in contrast to those that undergo the Wheel of Fate treatment. The circle path exempted Raziel from having his Fate Thread cut short by the gods because they can't grab hold of the "ends" of his endless loop. So gods are powerless against him. He's free from their control unless they trick him into submitting to their control on his own. So Elder had to puff up and convince Raziel that Elder was his boss, a lie. Unable to kill Raziel, all mobius could do was stitch over Raz's golden thread with false histories to turn the vampire hero into EG's hero for a while. Couldn't alter the hero part. But Raz was fooled into not accomplishing all he could have. They had to resort to Influencing him rather than Fating him. But the time that remained was Raziel's to be truly free, as soon as he could learn to claim it by asserting himself fully). Ta-da. Free will. The later free will stuff in the series makes sense to me, in fact the biggest problem for the Raziel Free Will model comes earlier on: how did Raz manage to kill Melchiah (a world-changing event) before he got hooked up with his resonating double-soul???

    So Kain and Raziel are also just playing out the parts fate has written for them. Raziel can't choose to change things whenever he wants.
    His free will was always there, it simply didn't show up or exert itself for the longest time. The easiest way it all makes sense is to say that most of the time Raziel was on autopilot. Ignorant of history, unclear of what his mission should be, and clueless about what he wanted to change. And when you're on autopilot, you're going to merely FULFILL HISTORY. You're going to stumble about, doing whatever. Doing what you've "always done." It was only when he saw the way things really were (Spirit Forge) that he knew how to do something different and free. Then Free Will took center stage and he demonstrated his full power. He ruined Elder's day WITHOUT needing to cross two soul reavers to do it.


    "So this has all been arranged, every step of the way. And Kain thought I truly had free will."
    Every Step Raziel walked was prepared by Moebius in advance. Moeby had all the time in the world to prepare, to craft a false history path for Raz to walk, herding Raz along a counterfeit circle path his whole life, all to render the vamipre champion harmless. The completeness of it is impressive, and it had better be, or else Raziel snaps out of his funk sooner, realizes he's a god, and smacks the crap out of Moeby and Friends.

    Moebius: "Oh, to have compelled the one player who could choose into doing exactly what we required." ...The one player who can choose? How? Raziel is just playing out his role in history like anyone else.
    But he could have stopped walking Moe's false path at any time. He woke up at the end, but he could have woken up earlier and struck even more of a blow against the dark forces. That's the tragedy. The hero was supposed to hold aloft the reaver while ancient vampires could still see the hero not succumbing to the curse. (The mural of vampire hero standing tall while his infected brethren were doubled over in pain.) So Moeby was gloating at how Raziel had failed to break away from the "pointless round of existence" Moe had tricked him into. It took Raz 98% of his life to get out from underwater and escape a sea of confusion. If he'd made different "random" choices that led to him figuring things out sooner, he could have lowered that amount of wasted time to 70% or so. Imagine the warpath he'd have gone on then, taking it to the true enemy! (and perhaps even finding time to "champion" the true vampire species as intended.)

    and finally the plan for Kain to travel to Avernus Cathedral and leave the Soul Reaver for his younger self to find, even though Moebius had to get it before him, and the sword was supposed to be legendary before Kain found it. It seems as if they were forgetting just what they had established before.
    Tricky. Maybe Kain was starting to play a game of chicken with history, denying Moeby easy access to the sword this time around, fulfilling a new Moby-Lite timeline in which the vampires called the shots all the way around the reaver loop? It'd risk fatal paradox, but it may be necessary to secure the win. Let Moe have paradox power again and you risk losing all the vampires' progress.
    Also, I still am bothered by how Turel being Hash'ak'gik doesn't really work when you start to closely examine the information from Blood Omen.
    I've looked into making Turel a false god-- say there was an older Original Hash cult which the hylden took advantage of by casting Turel as the Neo Hash appearing to them in the flesh. There could yet be a "real" Hashakgik out there too. And he'd be greatly annoyed.

    I hope this confuses.
    Last edited by TheSquid; 11-16-2014 at 05:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Balance Reaver View Post
    So, Kain was suppose to save Nosgoth in the final story draft? What about the Elder God?
    Nope. Thrown away, at least for Defiance. Here's the source: http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=53#p53
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    It's been confirmed that the events of Defiance are what make Blood Omen 2 possible. Kain remembers everything from Blood Omen 2 in Defiance. Therefore, history was not changed. There is no mention whatsoever by anyone that history was changed in Defiance. The idea of Raziel being able to change history whenever he wants goes against everything stated in Soul Reaver 2, and I don't understand what you're saying about Melchiah. Raziel killed Melchiah and the rest of his brothers because he wanted to, and because he was fated to, just like how Kain damned the Pillars because he wanted to and because he was fated to. Just because someone is fated to do something doesn't mean that they don't also have a real motive for doing it.
    And Moebius and the Elder God couldn't have been tricked for a while after a time change. All of history changes, past and future, so when this new timeline comes along, that means that Moebius and the Elder God already have had centuries or millennia to prepare. So what, they suddenly just forget all the planning they've done for centuries?
    I also don't understand your complaint about canon. That which is stated in the series is what matters to the series. It's not like I'm going to start bringing up time travel laws from Chrono Trigger and say that they apply to Legacy of Kain.

    I don't mean to be insulting at all with what I'm saying by the way, since I know it can be hard to tell with text, but really, what you typed is one of the major problems I see with the fans. People get ideas in their heads and instead of providing evidence within the series, they seem to just get caught up in their own theories and forget what's actually stated in the series. It's one of the major reasons I quote the games constantly.
    This whole "free will" thing I see keep being brought up is just a perfect example. We are NEVER really told what this means, but so many fans seem to just assume that Raziel can just change history whenever the hell he wants. They just plain didn't explain this at all. The Soul Reaver paradox? But that only happens when two of them meet and try to consume each other. So why should Raziel be able to change history without it? And as was stated in an official interview, Defiance sets up Blood Omen 2, so history wasn't changed in Defiance.

    Like I said, please don't take this too harshly. It's just that I've never been happy with how Defiance ended and how we're just left with so much unexplained. It's one thing to not answer questions to leave things free to interpretation, and it's another to just start throwing stuff into a story and to not explain it. Especially after the games before all did a great job having thing make sense. It would be like if in SR2, instead of showing the vertigo and Raziel refusing to kill Kain early in the game, that instead they just had it show up right at the end and they change history with no set up at all except for maybe one or two lines that you have to dig for.

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    This whole "free will" thing I see keep being brought up is just a perfect example. We are NEVER really told what this means, but so many fans seem to just assume that Raziel can just change history whenever the hell he wants. They just plain didn't explain this at all.
    http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/view...6&t=1581#p4124

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    Here's something that rarely gets considered. Most people assume every moment of every characters life it preordained, but it's not like that. It's more like the fixed points in Doctor Who, with the main difference being that they're far more abundant in this series. Here's how Daniel explains it:

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Cabuco
    As I mentioned before, The Wheel of Fate isn't a moment to moment, second by second kind of thing.

    Let's say you're destined to kill an intruder at some point in the next 3 months. It doesn't matter if he climbs through a window, kicks a door in, tricks his way in, etc. At some point you'll recognize the intruder and act. Unless how you kill him is prophesized you could strangle him, knife him, electrocute him etc.

    The wheel marks major points, and up until that point, you're free to do whatever you like.
    Let's say you try to break from it. You move away and become a hermit with no technical home. Problem solved, right? Well let's say you get hungry not having a job or home and someone invites you into their home for a meal. At that instant someone breaks in, attacks the nice people who took you in and you kill him. Technically you killed an intruder. Interpreting 'intruder' as your home was a mistake. Let's say you have a stun gun. This way he won't die!
    You shock him and it turns out he has a weak heart, really bad cholesterol, has a massive coronary and dies. (D'oh!) Or he collapses into the kitchen knives (D'oh!) or he falls neck first into the cutting board and breaks his neck on the way down. (D'oh!)
    The Wheel of fate also has to do with your personality and beliefs.
    Let's say you commit to doing nothing when the nice family is attacked. They're all brually killed in front of you (including children) and you're massively injured and left for dead.
    Well what benefit was denying fate at this point? You might get so angry as you heal up in the hospital that you commit to taking action, as much as necessary to protect those you care about, Wheel be damned. Then that same guy comes into your hospital room late at night to finish off the last witness. Are you gonna lay back and let him kill you? Your fate is tied to your personality and intellect, your ability to act and your beliefs in that action.

    It was all of these permutations that Kain saw when he looked into Moebius time streams. As a man, he would have no chance of understanding it all, of finding the correct series of permutations that would lead to the resolution of Defiance. But as a vampire, he had time, endurance, and the mental fortitude to sort through the time streams.

    Killing Raziel to the point of destiny was his shot at having the coin land on its edge. It created the most 'blank spots' in the time stream. And he knew he could act in those blank spots.

    Hope that helps you understand how it works.

    Thanks,
    Daniel
    EDIT: @Raina, looks like you beat me to it.
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    So I guess my understanding of fate in this series has been totally wrong all along. Far from there being about four or so timelines that have existed in this series, there are instead infinite timelines. I really don't get this at all. So there are infinite timelines that all share the same major events? Is this supposed to explain how you can play the game differently each time? What about all the people Raziel and Kain choose whether to kill or not? The consequences of their deaths don't matter? There are infinite timelines where people say and do different things all leading to the same major events? What?
    And as I keep saying, the series says pretty much nothing to really indicate this, except when Kain talks about gazing into the timestreams. I thought I understood this series, but now it's not making any sense. So each cycle Raziel goes through is different? Or is Cabuco referring more to time changes? Raziel can alter history to not enter the sword at one point, but he's still going to have to enter it no matter what.
    Does anyone understand what the hell this all means? Someone who can explain this? The Hylden? You seem to be the most knowledgeable LoK fan here.

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    Unfortunately, I have to say that I do disagree with Daniel's statement on how time works. I see no way that the timeline would be able to differentiate between a "major event" and a minor one, and to allow a being only so much will, but then constrain him/her at a crucial juncture. That would indicate a flexibility and recklessness of sentience and will, even emotion, as if the timeline is just a lazy overseer, or one over its head and can't keep up with all within itself.

    If all are bound to fate, their paths predetermined, then that means all of their path, not just the picked and chosen portions of it.

    Everything every being does affects all around it, from the smallest of beings, to the largest. While I don't believe in a bound, rigid fate in our own world, I do see that if a timeline existed where all was bound to it, then everything mechanically would be accounted for. Every movement affects something around it, which affects something else, down the line. From even things not alive, the tiniest of particles. A rock being blown with just a tad more force falls and starts an avalanche. An electron blowing out of an atom at one moment instead of another. Just an example, though there's nothing to say we have to include atomic particles in the land of Nosgoth's make-up...

    Just keeping it to living beings: let's say you wake up in Nosgoth, you get out of bed and go toward the outhouse; on your way out of your bedroom, you're a bit grumpy, and move with enough chosen force that it blows off a piece of dead skin from your hand. That dead skin piece falls to the floor, in the path of a spider on its merry way. Due to the piece of skin, it alters its course around it, and when you return, you see the spider, since its new course put it in your sights. So, you step on it and kill it. End of spider. If you walked with a little less force, the piece of skin would not have blown off at that moment, and the spider's original course would not have been altered. The spider might have gone on to make babies and a whole new generation of spiders. Perhaps one of those spiders makes a web and someone almost walks into it, panics, slips and falls, cracks open his/her head and then dies. That whole event led to the death of that person, with just the smallest of reasons for it. So, either it's the spider and its generations to come, or the human and its. But time cannot account for which is the larger of events and all of that course, whichever one it may be, has to be plotted along a predetermined loop, or it would not be a predetermined loop. it would invite chaos. Just that one example could cause enough death and destruction to utterly undermine time. What if that spide wound up in William the Just's path? Or in Kain's before the assassins got him? Time won't allow it because of the severity of the change, right? How far along that chain does time have to watch out for and when does it allow the spider and the human to choose what they will?

    If a leaf falls from a tree at one millisecond sooner than the next, it might blow in a different direction before it lands. So, either one spot will get a leaf that will turn to compost and feed some growing grass, or another spot will. Whichever spot gets the leaf will affect all the life in the area to come. Time cannot be so malleable that none of the small stuff matters. Whether it's the poor farmer who does, or doesn't squish a spider one day, or Kain killing William the Just, these events matter. One alteration in killing, or not killing William, will affect a larger portion of time and, in the case of the paradoxes we see, cause probably greater strain on time if it had to alter around it, but no change, inherently, can be allowed.


    Raziel is the variable. I see the talk of potential ripples by his actions and Kain seeing the potential possibilities in time as just that. Because of Raziel and what he might choose, there are echoes of things that never will be, but might be if Raziel chose another route, and it's the variable that blurs that portion of time if Kain, or Moebius, try and focus in on it. I don't think that would be happening were it not for his presence; nor do I think that because those echos are visible, that this means there are other timelines existing along the loop. It's like a pebble in a pond, as the Seer described Kain. A ripple that doesn't alter the pond, but is just visible before the water becomes still again and the ripple vanishes.

    Love the water metaphors in LoK's time explanations

  13. #13
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    Oh thank you. I felt like I was the only one here who felt like Cabuco's answer didn't make any sense. I absolutely agree with what you say about every minor thing affecting history. Every choice made, every being, every random little thing has consequences that might start off small, but can with time grow beyond anyone's imagining. The idea that, for example, Kain could decide to say one thing to Raziel "one time" and something different "the next time" just doesn't make any sense. All of history already existed. For example, by the time Raziel was thrown into the Abyss, Kain had already had his adventure in his youth, speaking with the Oracle, summoning Vorador to finish off Malek, deciding after chopping down a tree if he wanted to switch to a more practical weapon or keep going with the axes in case he ran into more trees and that would then make him have to sit through the annoying loading time again (oh man, memories...). It's not like when Raziel goes back in time that these time periods haven't existed yet, so how could anyone choose differently?
    I'm not sure if this is the intent, but I get from the games that Raziel has a sort of bubble around him. That when someone like Moebius or Kain try to view him with the Chronoplast, that they can't, there's a foggy area and they can't see anything in there, so they have to watch everything around that time and place. This is the only way I can see Moebius being tricked. How I imagine it is that Raziel's "bubble" is in Avernus, Moebius sees Kain fly to Avernus and enter that bubble, and Kain doesn't emerge in any way, so Moebius assumed that Raziel tore the heart out and destroyed Kain with the Wraith Blade. Kain was actually in the Demon Realm, but Moebius didn't know to look for Kain and maybe can't see into that Realm, so he doesn't know to look for Kain, and so, Kain kills Moebius. I mean, that's the only way I can see this making sense, and my theory would also mean that the Elder God is a fraud. He doesn't exist outside of time, he's faking it, manipulating Moebius to get information out of him, while acting like he already knows everything. Because otherwise he should "remember" Kain returning from the dead and beating him up. The Elder God can't travel in time, so he can't warn Moebius. As for him taking Kain to the future, I could see this as him suspending Kain, or some small time spell.
    And this is all why I'm so confused how all these characters talk about Raziel being able to choose. How can he choose differently? Kain already remembers fighting the new age Sarafan and meeting Janos, so why does he suddenly think that Raziel can just decide not to return the Heart of Darkness to Janos? Was Kain hoping for another paradox moment? And Moebius says that Raziel was the one player who could choose, but it's still the same thing. I just do not get what's supposed to be going on here. I love this series, but I think they kind of screwed things up when they wrote Defiance.

  14. #14
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    For the record, and as much as it frustrates me to say it, I've also been unable to digest those rules of time as outlined by Daniel. I can't see a way to reconcile his comments with the information given in the series.

    "We are compelled ineluctably down pre-ordained paths," "history is irredeemable", "you must understand that every creature is bound to one predestined path," it's all a very clear and unified message in the games.

    The following from Soul Reaver 2's producer sums up my understanding of the nature of time in Nosgoth:

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Bennett
    Initially, Raziel naively believes that history is fragile and may be altered easily. He gradually comes to understand, however, that there's a 'conservation of reality' at work, and that history is essentially immutable--that it requires a kind of 'temporal wildcard' to change its course.
    Now if history is mutable even without paradoxical events, and we as an audience have no means by which to identify the "major" and "minor" events to be accounted for in the timeline, the narrative of LoK becomes meaningless. Wibbley wobbly, timey wimey. Perhaps you can explain how these ideas apply to the series, Vampmaster. I'm open to reason, but they don't make sense to me.

    Aside from that, it's pretty straightforward. Raziel and the Reaver have the potential to reshuffle history, shown in Soul Reaver 2. As I understood it, Defiance doesn't contradict or undermine the rules of Soul Reaver 2 in any way. Part of the tragedy of Raziel's character is that we never really see him exercise his power in Defiance, because he has no interest in listening to reason. Suppose he had caused a paradox by accidentally entering the Reaver in Avernus, as almost occurred. Would Janos have been resurrected then? No, not likely. That came down to Raziel's choice, ultimately. I don't believe destiny compelled him to rip out Kain's heart instead, not entirely. His own vengeful rage, and the Hylden soul energy from Turel, cancelled out the free will he might have otherwise exerted.

    Under the right conditions, the capacity was there to reshape history in whatever ways he and Kain desired (e.g. not resurrecting Janos, for starters). Kain wanted "the resolution [they] both can live with, that will best serve [their] futures." That hypothetical scenario never has a chance to be explored, because Raziel picked a fight. His potential was largely wasted, things didn't go according to Kain's plan, and the story thread ends there for that reason. Moebius even acknowledges this: "And there's the greatest triumph of all, to have compelled the one player who could choose into doing exactly what we required." That's how I interpreted it, anyway.
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