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Thread: By the Numbers

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flintmelody View Post
    I would say that deal makes perfect sense to MS. To buy some control over what is probably the best rival to Uncharted. Paying money to stop PS and PC gamers getting to play the new game this Christmas to sell more consoles is a bit of a nasty thing to do. It's not like TR is a platform centred series like if you want Mario you know a Nintendo console is best. In fact if TR was that way then it has far more ties to both PS and PC than Xbox. Much as it makes sense for MS, the deal is the reason we are not happy so buying an xbox is like paying the school bully.
    erm..no-one will be playing the game THIS Christmas!
    Why nasty? That implies malice. Are you saying that MS took the conscious decision to be spiteful? This is the point of view that I have trouble understanding. They didn't do the deal to make peoples life miserable. That may have been a result for some, but they made the deal to sell consoles not to spitefully attack people.


    Quote Originally Posted by Flintmelody View Post
    It's not just making the deal, it's about not telling us when the exclusivity is over, it's about being indirect with every phrase.......... don't give any straight answers in the Q and A thread here and then say they didn't intend to mislead with GamesCon. Their I love MS type language is saying we are going to treat you worse in future to the rest of us. Is like owning a supermarket, throwing food at any customer not wearing red and still expecting people to come and buy from you. I have to think the impact would have been far less if they had been upfront.
    I don't understand why this is such a point of contention. You can't announce an exclusivity deal where money has changed hands and then undermine it. You as a consumer might not like it but that's how these things work. Can you explain why you expect any different? Supermarkets don't put tins on the shelf with a sign that says that if you come back tomorrow you could buy the same stuff for half the price do they?


    Quote Originally Posted by Flintmelody View Post
    Surely MS can never be considered an underdog.......Maybe CD will see our concerns, say no deal next time and re-focus on moving TR forward with all our consoles without prioritising one. Much as the finances are one thing anyone at a games developer wants their product and brand to be liked.
    I think MS can be well and truly considered an underdog as far as new-gen console sales. I think the PS4 is out selling the XB1 3:1 IIRC. Overall in TR sales, maybe not according to the figures in the OP.

    Unfortunately CD may not have much say in the matter as SE are the distributor and make the deals. As I have said, regardless of the concerns voiced if it's sales meet expectations from the deal there is a good possibility they will do it again.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tecstar70 View Post
    I think MS can be well and truly considered an underdog as far as new-gen console sales.
    On reputation as well...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tecstar70 View Post
    erm..no-one will be playing the game THIS Christmas!
    Why nasty? That implies malice. Are you saying that MS took the conscious decision to be spiteful? This is the point of view that I have trouble understanding. They didn't do the deal to make peoples life miserable. That may have been a result for some, but they made the deal to sell consoles not to spitefully attack people.
    Okay you got me on that. I meant that Christmas in the post not this one. It was late when I wrote it.

    It is spiteful though to hold us ransom for the price of a console. You don't get to play the game when it comes out unless you pay us 300. That is why are they are giving CD money so they can get that leverage over us. As I said with the Mario example Nintendo consoles and Mario are always linked so yes Nintendo consoles are likely to get exclusives and first plays. This is very different to buying a big advantage in a series that has been multiplatform for over 15 years and if anything was mainly in the PS favour. The deal does make business sense to MS and I think CD deserve more of the blame for selling out because they didn't have to agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tecstar70 View Post
    I don't understand why this is such a point of contention. You can't announce an exclusivity deal where money has changed hands and then undermine it.
    You can respect your fanbase if you make a deal or not. If you have been planning this for a while how can you not have prepared your PR response better? Maybe it was not having Meagan about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tecstar70 View Post
    I think MS can be well and truly considered an underdog as far as new-gen console sales. I think the PS4 is out selling the XB1 3:1 IIRC. Overall in TR sales, maybe not according to the figures in the OP.

    Unfortunately CD may not have much say in the matter as SE are the distributor and make the deals. As I have said, regardless of the concerns voiced if it's sales meet expectations from the deal there is a good possibility they will do it again.
    MS own a massive proportion of the PC market with Windows. Is like saying a supermarket is an underdog in clothing. Sony have been doing well in consoles but not so much outside of that. If we consider tech in a wider frame then Sony are the underdog. There is a good possibility that it will happen again and that is why if us PS/PC gamers want a better TR future we have to battle CD/SE hard to get that. With luck maybe CD choose do right by the fans, feedback to SE and the exclusivity contract goes unsigned next time. If it ain't that good well at least we tried.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flintmelody View Post
    Okay you got me on that. I meant that Christmas in the post not this one. It was late when I wrote it.
    No probs. i guessed it was something like that!

    Quote Originally Posted by Flintmelody View Post
    It is spiteful though to hold us ransom for the price of a console. You don't get to play the game when it comes out unless you pay us 300. That is why are they are giving CD money so they can get that leverage over us.
    Fair enough, you personally feel held to ransom and I can understand that. I don't believe that MS's motivation was spite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flintmelody View Post
    The deal does make business sense to MS and I think CD deserve more of the blame for selling out because they didn't have to agree.
    CD may not have had much say in it, more likely SE would be the main culprits.


    Quote Originally Posted by Flintmelody View Post
    You can respect your fanbase if you make a deal or not. If you have been planning this for a while how can you not have prepared your PR response better? Maybe it was not having Meagan about.
    So taking into account my previous comments, what could have been in the PR response that would have made a positive difference?


    Quote Originally Posted by Flintmelody View Post
    MS own a massive proportion of the PC market with Windows. Is like saying a supermarket is an underdog in clothing. Sony have been doing well in consoles but not so much outside of that. If we consider tech in a wider frame then Sony are the underdog.
    In this particular point being made PC gamers are a minority as far as TR2013 is concerned but yes the potential PC marketplace is far greater than the consoles.


    Quote Originally Posted by Flintmelody View Post
    There is a good possibility that it will happen again and that is why if us PS/PC gamers want a better TR future we have to battle CD/SE hard to get that. With luck maybe CD choose do right by the fans, feedback to SE and the exclusivity contract goes unsigned next time. If it ain't that good well at least we tried.
    Not going to argue with that. The shoe could be on the other foot next time round and it could be Xbox owners having to wait.
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  5. #30
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    @Tecstar70

    I understand where you're coming from and I know that I agree with some of your points but we're never going to see eye to eye on this subject. You've stated you have an X1 meaning that this deal has no negative affect on you. Because of that, I have to wonder if you'd be so happy-go-lucky if you had bought a PS4 instead. My guess is that you wouldn't be.

    Do I think that Microsoft made the deal to gut punch the fans of the TR series? No. They did it to sell more boxes and attack Sony in any fashion they could. I'm used to Microsoft throwing punches below the belt whenever possible.

    Do I think that Crystal Dynamics had a say in the deal? No, but they are affiliate with Square so I no longer support them or even care what they think of their fanbase. The fact is, they had time to prepare better PR than that pile of crap they served us.

    Do I think Square gives a crap about the fans? Absolutely not. TR wasn't their brain child, they bought the rights to it and demand a return for their investment. Square only cares about their wallets and will do whatever it takes to fatten it even if that means accepting shady deals and retardedly alienating more than half the fanbase of a series they now own. I think the deal will hurt the Tomb Raider series far more than Square execs realize but they won't blame their own stupidity... they'll cancel the series as it doesn't meet sales expectations with less than half the fanbase supporting it.

    So in short:

    Microsoft = Underhanded businessmen.
    Crystal Dynamics = Puppets without control of their work that has crappy PR.
    Square = Greedy retards.
    The TR Fanbase = Screwed
    The TR Series = A casualty of stupidity and system wars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Telekill View Post

    So in short:

    Microsoft = Underhanded businessmen.
    Crystal Dynamics = Puppets without control of their work that has crappy PR.
    Square = Greedy retards.
    The TR Fanbase = Screwed
    The TR Series = A casualty of stupidity and system wars.
    THIS!!!!!!
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  7. #32
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    agree with the short version part.
    SE already complaint about TR9 being a failure because it didnt meet their expectations. this deal just indicates how greedy they really are. damn, EA is harmless compared to SE now.
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Telekill View Post
    @Tecstar70

    I understand where you're coming from and I know that I agree with some of your points but we're never going to see eye to eye on this subject. You've stated you have an X1 meaning that this deal has no negative affect on you. Because of that, I have to wonder if you'd be so happy-go-lucky if you had bought a PS4 instead. My guess is that you wouldn't be.
    Agreeing to disagree is sometimes the only way
    Actually, honestly and truly if the position was reversed I would be a bit miffed that I had to wait an extra few months for the game because that is what I truly believe will happen. If it ended up not coming out on my platform I would be annoyed, you are right, but probably more mystified as to why not. If I didn't get RotTR but did get the following TR game on my platform would I buy it - yes, absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telekill View Post
    Do I think that Microsoft made the deal to gut punch the fans of the TR series? No. They did it to sell more boxes and attack Sony in any fashion they could. I'm used to Microsoft throwing punches below the belt whenever possible.
    Spot on, that is the reality of it but "below the belt" implies they are not abiding by the rules. Yes its frustrating and annoying, but is there a rule that says they can't do this? It feels very unfair, certainly, so maybe i'm being too literal. (Bloody historians always try to break things down!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Telekill View Post
    Do I think that Crystal Dynamics had a say in the deal? No, but they are affiliate with Square so I no longer support them or even care what they think of their fanbase. The fact is, they had time to prepare better PR than that pile of crap they served us.
    I do think this is unfair on CD who may not have had any choice in the matter. From what I can tell most game devs are passionate about their games and their work and usually want as many people to see it as possible. I don't know, but do they have a choice whether to affiliate or not with SE? Don't shoot the messenger just because you don't like what the message says. On the subject of messages, you didn't answer my question on this point: So taking into account my previous comments, what could have been in the PR response that would have made a positive difference? I fail to see what CD/SE/MS could have said that would have made this situation more comfortable for people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telekill View Post
    Do I think Square gives a crap about the fans? Absolutely not. TR wasn't their brain child, they bought the rights to it and demand a return for their investment. Square only cares about their wallets and will do whatever it takes to fatten it even if that means accepting shady deals and retardedly alienating more than half the fanbase of a series they now own. I think the deal will hurt the Tomb Raider series far more than Square execs realize but they won't blame their own stupidity... they'll cancel the series as it doesn't meet sales expectations with less than half the fanbase supporting it.
    Well I think I think SE care about the customer in terms of producing a product that people like and will buy as well as being successful and making money. Of course they want a return on their investment. ALL companies do. I would say it is CD who care about fans more as they are aware that they are looking after a beloved franchise and have exhibited such awareness on this forum. I find terms like "shady deals" funny. It implies some illict dealings when in fact it appears no more than a business agreement. Again the implication is that it's illegal. Maybe that's just me.

    In terms of alienating half the fanbase, you are concluding that every PS4 and PC owner is alienated. Now technically that is true in terms of availability to buy the game but that does not mean when it does come out (and your "half the fanbase" point illustrates exactly why it will ) that they ALL will not buy the game. How much this deals hurts the franchise will not be seen for at least 2 years IMO.

    If SE did cancel it, this could be Lara's "Chosen One" moment. Things have to get dark before they get light. Another company could pick up the remnants of CD and the TR franchise and do things differently. (I doubt this will happen, but never say never)

    Quote Originally Posted by Telekill View Post
    So in short:

    Microsoft = Underhanded businessmen.
    Underhanded? Can't agree. Unpopular. Yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Telekill View Post
    Crystal Dynamics = Puppets without control of their work that has crappy PR.
    Puppets, probably like a lot of software devs who are tied to a publisher. Nothing unusual here. Their PR will be guided by SE remember so any view of crappiness isn't necessarily going to be their fault. Again, what could their PR have done differently within the boundaries of the deal?
    Quote Originally Posted by Telekill View Post
    Square = Greedy retards.
    Greedy. Maybe. retards. Bit strong that. Don't really like that term aimed at anyone, whoever they are. Misguided maybe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Telekill View Post
    The TR Fanbase = Screwed
    Depends what you mean by screwed, but I'll take it you mean "not getting the game". Not necessarily screwed. Annoyed, disenfranchised, but most likely will just have to wait a few months. If you mean something different feel free to qualify what you mean.
    Quote Originally Posted by Telekill View Post
    The TR Series = A casualty of stupidity and system wars.
    This is really an prediction, because until December 2016 it will be impossible to tell how much of a casualty it is. If the game is crap, then if that is because of the MS deal then yes - a casualty (although I don't see why MS would want to stick their nose into how the game is made so if it is crap it WILL be CD to be held to account). If it doesn't sell on PC/PS4 when it is released then yes- a casualty. If it sells -loads on all platforms throughout 2016 - not a casualty, a success.
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  9. #34
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    Microsoft has always been underhanded when it comes to the video game business.

    Before, if an exclusive was released on Xbox (original...and perhaps 360) that was a timed exclusive, they would somehow work out a rider in the negotiations that the other console versions could not have the same bells and whistles as the version released for M$ consoles.

    Of course, their shenanigans with Xbox One prelaunch and their retraction thereafter to try and say: "We listened to you, the gamers!" is just sheer PR stunting. They ticked off and drove away more Xbox fans with that maneuver than just about anything they'd done in the past.

    And M$ is not looking to try and help make TR a "better game experience". They're just desperate to sell their flailing system to a larger base.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Martok View Post
    Microsoft has always been underhanded when it comes to the video game business.

    Before, if an exclusive was released on Xbox (original...and perhaps 360) that was a timed exclusive, they would somehow work out a rider in the negotiations that the other console versions could not have the same bells and whistles as the version released for M$ consoles.
    Why is this not a business strategy that makes sense? Isn't creating a compelling reason for someone to choose your product over someone elses what all companies try to do? It might not be good for the consumer who favours the other product but why is it underhand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Martok View Post
    Of course, their shenanigans with Xbox One prelaunch and their retraction thereafter to try and say: "We listened to you, the gamers!" is just sheer PR stunting. They ticked off and drove away more Xbox fans with that maneuver than just about anything they'd done in the past.
    Totally agree. They really messed up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Martok View Post
    And M$ is not looking to try and help make TR a "better game experience". They're just desperate to sell their flailing system to a larger base.
    I don't know what they mean by a "better game experience". I suppose time will tell, but yes they are desperate to sell their system.

    Interestingly enough within the gaming community I am a member of the PS4/Xbox One choice has been discussed recently. Now I am not suggesting that it can reflect the whole gaming community but as a snap shot of a group of people it is interesting. The majority started off with the PS4 but many have sold or are selling them to get an Xbox One. Those with PS4's are very disappointed with the several aspects of the PS4 and are impressed with the updates to the XB1 so far. Many have commented how it has matured as a platform and that online gaming is a much better experience. Without sounding corny, there is love out there for the XB1.

    Another finger in the air - a quick search on used consoles on ebay.co.uk which shows 116 used XB1's for sale and 220 used PS4's for sale. I am not suggesting that this is evidence that the XB1 is overtaking the PS4 by any means, but it indicates that the used market (in the UK at least) is equally buoyant for both consoles.
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  11. #36
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    Oh, I know there are plenty of folks going over to the dark side as it were. ...lol.
    I just hope their choice doesn't bite them bite them on the rear when and if M$ decides they finally have a large enough user base to reinstate those policies that angered so many gamers in the first place.

    As a system, I have no doubt the Xbox One is a good one...except for that whole "900p/30fps" bit for most games. I was fully ready to get an XB1 until M$'s deal breaking stunts. But I can't even look at one because of the potential of M$ screwing the pooch (and gamers) again.

    In the gruff words of Admiral Ackbar: "It's a trap! "

    (point of fairness to Xbone)
    I should not really dis 900p. I mean, I have the PSTV, and even though it can run at a max resolution of 1080i, for PS4 remote play it is best to run it on Automatic, to which it defaults to 720p when running PS4 remotely. (Any higher seems to frack with bandwidth, even if you are in a wired connection.) But, if at 720p, PS4 remotely played games on PSTV look gorgeous, then 900p must be really good looking for Xbone.
    Last edited by Lord Martok; 10-24-2014 at 03:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Martok View Post
    I just hope their choice doesn't bite them bite them on the rear when and if M$ decides they finally have a large enough user base to reinstate those policies that angered so many gamers in the first place.
    M$ set forward a really poor vision of the future of gaming and whilst they retreated it has shown the direction they want things to go in. After they start playing tricks with the great TR brand then I won't buy their console

    Quote Originally Posted by Tecstar70 View Post
    Another finger in the air - a quick search on used consoles on ebay.co.uk which shows 116 used XB1's for sale and 220 used PS4's for sale. I am not suggesting that this is evidence that the XB1 is overtaking the PS4 by any means, but it indicates that the used market (in the UK at least) is equally buoyant for both consoles.
    If there are 3:1 PS4 to Xbox out there and 2:1 on Ebay. Then that means a greater proportion of people who are buying Xboxes are selling them again. It's not a indication of a PS4 to Xbox shift.
    Last edited by Mick2412; 10-25-2014 at 03:41 AM.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Martok View Post
    (point of fairness to Xbone)
    I should not really dis 900p. I mean, I have the PSTV, and even though it can run at a max resolution of 1080i, for PS4 remote play it is best to run it on Automatic, to which it defaults to 720p when running PS4 remotely. (Any higher seems to frack with bandwidth, even if you are in a wired connection.) But, if at 720p, PS4 remotely played games on PSTV look gorgeous, then 900p must be really good looking for Xbone.
    Interesting. I do think that the 900p/1080p is not as important. I would like to see 1080 on the XB1 of course. That's was one of the reasons I nearly bought a PS4 but as long as the games are good and the experience is entertaining then that comes first for me. The games also do look gorgeous on the XB1 too, maybe just a little bit more gorgeous at 1080 on the PS4 but there isn't much in it in my view.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick2412 View Post
    M$ set forward a really poor vision of the future of gaming and whilst they retreated it has shown the direction they want things to go in. After they start playing tricks with the great TR brand then I won't buy their console
    I believe if this had gone ahead and worked Sony would have been doing exactly the same. It could be argued that MS were too ahead of their time for their own good.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mick2412 View Post
    If there are 3:1 PS4 to Xbox out there and 2:1 on Ebay. Then that means a greater proportion of people who are buying Xboxes are selling them again.
    Yes, that is true but that wasn't my point so I can ignore this!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tecstar70 View Post
    Apologies for the double-post but the last one was rather longer than expected!



    Well I don't play COD or Halo and don't intend to buy either so that is a bit of a dramatic assumption to make about Xbox owners. I WILL however be picking up RotTR.



    In actual fact according to the OP, most TR fans are PS and Xbox gamers. PC gamers are a tiny minority. To break that down a level, most TR fans are Xbox 360 and PS3. The new-gen marketplace is still in a state of flux so who can say where these numbers will be come autumn 2015?
    VGChartz only counts physical sales and most PC gamers probably buy their games digitally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphdawg1 View Post
    VGChartz only counts physical sales and most PC gamers probably buy their games digitally.
    That will make a difference to the numbers then. If the OP revises his figures I will re-evaluate my thoughts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tecstar70 View Post
    That will make a difference to the numbers then. If the OP revises his figures I will re-evaluate my thoughts.
    Nobody knows the digital sales because it's not included in the total number of copies sold. I bought Tomb Raider digitally for PS3 and i'm pretty sure my purchase isn't included in the total sales figures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphdawg1 View Post
    Nobody knows the digital sales because it's not included in the total number of copies sold. I bought Tomb Raider digitally for PS3 and i'm pretty sure my purchase isn't included in the total sales figures.
    Kinda makes the whole point of the OP void then if we can't validate digital sales on any platform.
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    Not really. I highly doubt that Xbox users bought Tomb Raider digitally a million times. To make the numbers sway magically in their favor. Look Tecstar, I realize that you are trying to sway everyone into, at the very least, not being as angry about the whole Microsoft deal and I appreciate that you use diplomatic verbiage, but as a fan, I'm pissed. I'll be pissed at least until I get a definitive answer on if this game is coming to PS4 or not. I won't accept fanbase hopes and dreams or speculation. The only way to get me not as angry is both time and the confirmation of a PS4 release.

    Now, the damage is done as far as consumer confidence and my personal alienation and they lost a sale from me even if it comes to PS4. I'll be buying this game used if it becomes available for PS4 and that's on them. There is no changing my mind on that. I've calmed enough though that I'm willing to start buying the comics and other TR merch. Square needs to learn to not bite the hand that feeds.

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    While I agree and sympathize with those who are royally pissed off-at the M$/SE deal, this is part of why I am no longer a fan of anything..... No fandom, no reason to get royally P.O.'d.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Telekill View Post
    Not really. I highly doubt that Xbox users bought Tomb Raider digitally a million times. To make the numbers sway magically in their favor.
    I wasn't necessarily suggesting that they would, but without digital sales you can't say that your figures reflect platform distribution, and therefore the point you are making cannot be made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telekill View Post
    Look Tecstar, I realize that you are trying to sway everyone into, at the very least, not being as angry about the whole Microsoft deal and I appreciate that you use diplomatic verbiage, but as a fan, I'm pissed. I'll be pissed at least until I get a definitive answer on if this game is coming to PS4 or not. I won't accept fanbase hopes and dreams or speculation. The only way to get me not as angry is both time and the confirmation of a PS4 release.
    Totally appreciate that, and you are correct. While I can't stop people being annoyed, I am trying to point out the logic of the situation and hopefully bring some rationality to the discussion. I hope to goodness that I am right, as I don't want to see the fanbase miss out, but I am 99.99% certain that time will prove me right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telekill View Post
    Now, the damage is done as far as consumer confidence and my personal alienation and they lost a sale from me even if it comes to PS4. I'll be buying this game used if it becomes available for PS4 and that's on them. There is no changing my mind on that. I've calmed enough though that I'm willing to start buying the comics and other TR merch. Square needs to learn to not bite the hand that feeds.
    That's fair enough. You know how you feel and it's up to you what you want to do. I just hope that I have been able to give a slightly brighter glimmer of hope for non-Xbox owners.
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