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Thread: Are we supposed to believe that Sam is okay?

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    Question Are we supposed to believe that Sam is okay?

    Just replaying Tomb Raider for the 1000th time and there's something that's been bugging me. In the last sequence where Mathias is transferring Himikos soul into Sam, has no one ever thought that "gee it sure is taking a long time to transfer her soul"?
    I'm not saying that Sam is going to be Himiko in the next game or even the villain but, given the time she is doing that process surely some of Himiko would remain with her? What does the soul just go back out when Lara destroys the body? I mean yes Lara destroyed Himikos soul, but would it be only the part that hasn't already attached to Sam. And saying that, Lara was in the middle of that for a bit so some of the soul gold have "passed through her".

    Thoughts?

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    I'm glad you said that because that was something I was thinking about for awhile. It was tediously long, Himiko's soul transfer, so I always thought that at the end of the game, it'd be like Michael Jackson's Thriller, and Sam would look at the camera and have like an evil grin or something.

    I don't know, honestly. If Sam is even in the next game, there may or may not be a continuation of the situation. I know most of that is covered in the comics, but for the sake of spoilers, I shan't address the details.
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    Welcome to the forums, Raider-Of-Tombs

    My take on it is that since we're dealing with a fictional story here, there is no such thing as "the soul transfer process is taking too long". It can take however long it needs to take within the fictional narrative. There is no "logic" when it comes to the supernatural, heh.

    Similarly, if the narrative dictates that with the killing of the original body, the soul is completely wiped out, no matter where it currently resides or how much of it has been transferred, then that just makes fictional sense, if you know what I mean.

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    welcome to the forum

    what driber said.
    but i sure asked my self as well how long it takes but well, its game logic. since you are busy fighting off a small army and just cant rush forwards, it sure gives the impression it takes ages. i even tried to take my time fighting, in case there might be a quick scene showing sam slowly dissolving or something like that, to indicate you are taking too much time. but nothing. so dont break you head to much about it.
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    Yeah I know I'm looking for logic where there is none and I know most things are just "because the script says so" but come on
    I think we need to gather together and get a universally acceptable time for a soul transfer to be completed across all sorts of media. I'm thinking around that 5 minute mark :P

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    I completely disagree. 5 minutes makes no sense whatsoever. Himiko's soul has been dormant for hundreds years, and the rate of dissipation of soul particles is 32.304 per year. And taking into account the atmospheric pressure of 101.325 kPa at the height that Lara was on that mountain, and taking into account the third law of thermodynamics, the obvious conclusion is that the correct time would be 2 minutes and 36 seconds.

    DUH.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    I completely disagree. 5 minutes makes no sense whatsoever. Himiko's soul has been dormant for hundreds years, and the rate of dissipation of soul particles is 32.304 per year. And taking into account the atmospheric pressure rate of 101.325 kPa at the height that Lara was on that mountain, and taking into account the third law of thermodynamics, the obvious conclusion is that the correct time would be 2 minutes and 36 seconds.

    DUH.
    Well excuuuuuuse me princess
    I will gladly agree on 2 minutes and 36 seconds. It gives my theory some more back bone

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    lol, was that a reference to the 80'ies Zelda cartoon?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raider-Of-Tombs View Post
    Just replaying Tomb Raider for the 1000th time and there's something that's been bugging me. In the last sequence where Mathias is transferring Himikos soul into Sam, has no one ever thought that "gee it sure is taking a long time to transfer her soul"?
    I'm not saying that Sam is going to be Himiko in the next game or even the villain but, given the time she is doing that process surely some of Himiko would remain with her? What does the soul just go back out when Lara destroys the body? I mean yes Lara destroyed Himikos soul, but would it be only the part that hasn't already attached to Sam. And saying that, Lara was in the middle of that for a bit so some of the soul gold have "passed through her".

    Thoughts?

    That would be a bit of cliche. Many things are going of for 'too long' in games because otherwise the whole fun would be taken away from us. I mean, we can't expect Lara to be on the top of the mountain in 2 minutes anyway.


    As for the plot, recycling the story about Himiko wouldn't work and I think developers are not going to recycle it anyway. I, for one, don't want to deal with the same thing over and over again and I think that everyone remembers how fed up we got with Natla.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raider-Of-Tombs View Post
    Yeah I know I'm looking for logic where there is none and I know most things are just "because the script says so" but come on
    I think we need to gather together and get a universally acceptable time for a soul transfer to be completed across all sorts of media. I'm thinking around that 5 minute mark :P
    If we are trying to find logic in this, let's just say that soul which has been dormant for many years needs some time to fully wake up. Just like me in the morning - you cannot expect me to have a conversation with you if I just got up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    I completely disagree. 5 minutes makes no sense whatsoever. Himiko's soul has been dormant for hundreds years, and the rate of dissipation of soul particles is 32.304 per year. And taking into account the atmospheric pressure of 101.325 kPa at the height that Lara was on that mountain, and taking into account the third law of thermodynamics, the obvious conclusion is that the correct time would be 2 minutes and 36 seconds.

    DUH.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    I completely disagree. 5 minutes makes no sense whatsoever. Himiko's soul has been dormant for hundreds years, and the rate of dissipation of soul particles is 32.304 per year. And taking into account the atmospheric pressure of 101.325 kPa at the height that Lara was on that mountain, and taking into account the third law of thermodynamics, the obvious conclusion is that the correct time would be 2 minutes and 36 seconds.

    DUH.
    One thing bothers me in your analysis. Since Lara was high up on the mountain in the area where it's snowing, it's impossible that there is a pressure of 101 325 Pa. That is a normal pressure at zero meters above the sea level and you know that the higher you go, the pressure gets lower. So, if Lara was on 1000 m above sea level, the pressure should be roughly around 89 to 91 kPa.

    How long does it take now for the soul transfer?
    (I'd stick with 5 minutes because the pressure is not high enough to keep pushing the soul down.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivana KC View Post
    One thing bothers me in your analysis. Since Lara was high up on the mountain in the area where it's snowing, it's impossible that there is a pressure of 101 325 Pa. That is a normal pressure at zero meters above the sea level and you know that the higher you go, the pressure gets lower. So, if Lara was on 1000 m above sea level, the pressure should be roughly around 89 to 91 kPa.

    How long does it take now for the soul transfer?
    (I'd stick with 5 minutes because the pressure is not high enough to keep pushing the soul down.)
    True, but another thing we forgot to include in the equation is the magic wind that Himiko created on the island, which causes a positive pressure of several thousand Pa. This in the end nearly cancels out the negative atmospheric pressure at the altitude difference.

    So instead of 2m36s I'll go with 2m41s.

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    I think this may be addressed in the novel, the 'overdose' that Lara is searching the cure for. Sam seems fine in the comics, except for a slight shortness in temper. This is story stuff that doesn't need to make it to the games, but still covers the 'what happened next' scenarios between main adventures (the games). The novel and the comics allow for story that would be surplus to the games, something that could bog down the main adventure story too much and won't directly effect the sequel. If this isn't the case, then something else otherworldly effects Sam in the novel as any normal drug (illegal or legal) would be treatable by doctors and Lara wouldn't need to track down a cure all artefact .

    Although Sam did seem fine on the boat in the final cutscene. I wouldn't be surprised if she were mentally or physically effected by that soul transfer. But then, 'time' is a weird thing in fiction. Apparently it took Lara a whole day to hunt that deer and yet a large portion of the game also takes place in one day. We're not supposed to take real time into account.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    True, but another thing we forgot to include in the equation is the magic wind that Himiko created on the island, which causes a positive pressure of several thousand Pa. This in the end cancels out the negative atmospheric pressure at the altitude difference.

    So instead of 2m36s I'll go with 2m41s.


    The wind would make it even lower. The lowest pressures are in the center of the hurricanes and storms. Which means, the lowest pressure would be right where Himiko and Sam are.

    Five minutes it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    I completely disagree. 5 minutes makes no sense whatsoever. Himiko's soul has been dormant for hundreds years, and the rate of dissipation of soul particles is 32.304 per year. And taking into account the atmospheric pressure of 101.325 kPa at the height that Lara was on that mountain, and taking into account the third law of thermodynamics, the obvious conclusion is that the correct time would be 2 minutes and 36 seconds.

    DUH.
    damn, you coulndt get any more scientific
    all this physic and math gives me a headache.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raider-Of-Tombs View Post
    Just replaying Tomb Raider for the 1000th time and there's something that's been bugging me. In the last sequence where Mathias is transferring Himikos soul into Sam, has no one ever thought that "gee it sure is taking a long time to transfer her soul"?
    I'm not saying that Sam is going to be Himiko in the next game or even the villain but, given the time she is doing that process surely some of Himiko would remain with her? What does the soul just go back out when Lara destroys the body? I mean yes Lara destroyed Himikos soul, but would it be only the part that hasn't already attached to Sam. And saying that, Lara was in the middle of that for a bit so some of the soul gold have "passed through her".

    Thoughts?

    Exactly! That process took like 30-40 minutes!!!

    Lara did not fully save Sam! That is my belief!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivana KC View Post
    The wind would make it even lower. The lowest pressures are in the center of the hurricanes and storms. Which means, the lowest pressure would be right where Himiko and Sam are.

    Five minutes it is.
    Damn, you got me. Okay, I concede - 5 minutes it is.

    Now, who will call Nature and Science with our findings to have them peer-reviewed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rai View Post
    I think this may be addressed in the novel, the 'overdose' that Lara is searching the cure for. Sam seems fine in the comics, except for a slight shortness in temper. This is story stuff that doesn't need to make it to the games, but still covers the 'what happened next' scenarios between main adventures (the games). The novel and the comics allow for story that would be surplus to the games, something that could bog down the main adventure story too much and won't directly effect the sequel. If this isn't the case, then something else otherworldly effects Sam in the novel as any normal drug (illegal or legal) would be treatable by doctors and Lara wouldn't need to track down a cure all artefact .
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    Damn, you got me. Okay, I concede - 5 minutes it is.

    Now, who will call Nature and Science with our findings to have them peer-reviewed?

    Since you started with analysis and research, of course it should be you. I'd address myself as a co-author and maybe we get a Nobel prize for physics.

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    Look....it's real simple:

    Just keep Sam away from Ouija boards, and do not let drunken friends of the family up in her bedroom...and that should be that. If her head starts spinning, and she starts projectile vomiting pea soup, and spewing obscenities that would make the devil grin with pride, and hurling drunken family friends out of her bedroom window down a long flight of stairs to a street below.....well, then we'll know my advice went unheeded.
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    They should have done it like the stock anime approach, having things charge up for three episodes...

    Then random faces of shock and awe, before releasing a world killing blast that seems to hurt nobody.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Martok View Post
    Look....it's real simple:

    Just keep Sam away from Ouija boards, and do not let drunken friends of the family up in her bedroom...and that should be that. If her head starts spinning, and she starts projectile vomiting pea soup, and spewing obscenities that would make the devil grin with pride, and hurling drunken family friends out of her bedroom window down a long flight of stairs to a street below.....well, then we'll know my advice went unheeded.

    now thats a calculation i understand. lara would be the exorcist. jonah the assistant.

    "THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU" .

    awesome movie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalrocks View Post

    now thats a calculation i understand. lara would be the exorcist. jonah the assistant.

    "THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU" .

    awesome movie.
    My alltime favorite terror film. I saw it when I was 5 in '73..... And by saw it, I mean I was the stupid one for dragging my parents to see some movie that I had no idea just what I was getting myself into. When Regan growled in full possession for the first time, I did a swan dive under the dash (it was a drive in). I didn't come back up for quite a while, and when I did, Regan hurled pea soup at Father Karras. I got back under the dash, and did not reemerge until Regan was all back to normal.

    It took me 17 years to conquer that movie. And when I finally did, no movie since then has ever even phased me. The Exorcist still gives me chills to this day, but I can also easily watch it 5 times in a row on a whim. In fact, I did so when I was putting this little film together.....
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pgIJTkeQTU4.

    Hope it works....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Martok View Post
    My alltime favorite terror film. I saw it when I was 5 in '73..... And by saw it, I mean I was the stupid one for dragging my parents to see some movie that I had no idea just what I was getting myself into. When Regan growled in full possession for the first time, I did a swan dive under the dash (it was a drive in). I didn't come back up for quite a while, and when I did, Regan hurled pea soup at Father Karras. I got back under the dash, and did not reemerge until Regan was all back to normal.

    It took me 17 years to conquer that movie. And when I finally did, no movie since then has ever even phased me. The Exorcist still gives me chills to this day, but I can also easily watch it 5 times in a row on a whim. In fact, I did so when I was putting this little film together.....
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pgIJTkeQTU4.

    Hope it works....
    nice video.

    i wasnt that young when i saw it. i wasnt even born yet at that time. my parents of course didnt allow me to watch it. they knew the movie only to well.
    i think i was around 14 or 15 when i saw it finally on tv. i still remember my mother asked me if im ok. i was just laughing saying that im more than fine. really enjoyed the movie. of course i have it on dvd and still like watching it. i even showed ti my wife last year. she freaked out a bit. she never saw it before.
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    Thanks, Metalrocks. Glad you liked it. . (yeah, that was me doing all the voices )

    You should hear some of the stories of reactions from filmgoers when the movie premiered back then. Nausea, hysteria, passing out, a strong desire to get the hell out of the theatre, etc. It was quite a movie, and still is.

    The Exorcism of Emily Rose, nor even any of the Exorcist prequels or sequels hold a candle to the original, although Exorcist III (based on Legion, by William Peter Blatty) was pretty entertaining.

    And if you ever want to see a cheap Italian knockoff of The Exorcist, check out a movie called "Beyond the Door". (In the actual movie, the title comes up as "The Devil Within Her".)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Martok View Post
    My alltime favorite terror film. I saw it when I was 5 in '73..... And by saw it, I mean I was the stupid one for dragging my parents to see some movie that I had no idea just what I was getting myself into. When Regan growled in full possession for the first time, I did a swan dive under the dash (it was a drive in). I didn't come back up for quite a while, and when I did, Regan hurled pea soup at Father Karras. I got back under the dash, and did not reemerge until Regan was all back to normal.
    5 yo?! What were your parents thinking

    What did you think of the second movie? That brain stuff freaked me out more than most of the gore in the first movie when I saw it for the first time, heh.

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