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Thread: Lara Croft: The RPG

  1. #26
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    I'm not too crazy about the idea of infinite carrying capacity in a "magic backpack". I much prefer having a carrying limit, hence only 3 guns and 1 bow (the pistols have a belt holster working in that design). And the same should be for clothes.

    Now I know some people are going to rebuke; "This is video games, not real life, Adobe". Yeah I know that games aren't supposed to be "completely" realistic. As I've often said, it's not so much about realism but rather verisimilitude. The best way to create the illusion of realism within the fiction, and in the case of games, within the parameters of the game mechanics.

    So the idea that Lara can carry an entire wardrobe in her backpack is quite absurd. I know it's or the convenience of switching outfits for the situation, but still... her backpack isn't the TARDIS

    If we're talking about RPGs, it should be noted that most do implement inventory limits, based on either slots or weight. Granted these limits can still be somewhat unrealistic where the character is able to carry around 4 swords and 2 spare sets of armor. But the limits of what the player can carry in the world are supplemented by a town stash. And that is the solution. Spare outfits and weapons should be held in a stash (like the base camps) so the player can have the outfits necessary for various exploration conditions, and they need to plan carefully what they'll take with them (Lara) before going into that new terrain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thetford View Post

    In terms of a damage system, the best one I have seen for clothes is The Sims Castaway (Wii), in which clothes, especially normal ones from civilisation, get damaged to the point shirts and trousers become boob tubes and hot pants, however, a sewing kit can repair clothes (as well as shave and give haircuts), but not to the original state, but a repaired version of the state it is in (tears are sewn closed, etc). However, this may be too in depth for Tomb Raider.
    This is something I really wanted to see in TR2013. It would have really reinforced the survival atmosphere. We already had the condition of Lara's clothes reflecting her deterioration from the experiences of her ordeals. But how much more visceral it would have been if the clothes got into such a state they were no longer wearable and didn't provide the protection from the elements any more.

    The idea of having to replace clothing that got worn out with the resources of the environment would have deepened the survival experience, and visually fit in with Lara clad in a makeshift animal skin ensemble. You can see how it expresses her leaving behind the vestiges of civilization and adapting to the her surroundings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurre View Post

    Incidently I was just talking to my friends about the possibility of Lara ever having a romantic affair. Not everyone seemed to agree on it, but my conclusion was that the only way to do this was to turn it into an RPG... If the storyteller would just decide for her who she's gonna get romantically involved with there would be too many people who wouldn't approve of that perticular person (if it were Sam, for instance) and there would be riots in the streets. That is why it should be the choice of the player: amongst the NPC's that can be talked to as was suggested earlier there should be at least three different guys with different personalities and backgrounds that can be potential boyfriends... And the fourth would be... *sigh*... Sam, for the ones who are into that... And for the ones who think that Lara should be single for all eternity, they can just romance nobody.

    Not only would that make sure that nobody is unhappy; it could potentially become one of Tomb Raiders biggest assets, as the romancing is one of Mass Effects biggest assets right now...
    Whoa whoa whoa, I think you're rushing to conclusions to say that romance story elements can work ONLY in an RPG dynamic. And I keep advocating that it works in other linear and scripted action games that are story driven. No reason it can't work for Tomb Raider just as well.

    It's not that I'm opposed to seeing the franchise adopt these kind of designs. Just stressing that it need not rely on them as a crutch as the only way it's possible.

    Now I can already see where the counterargument is going; "other games have new characters that were already shown to have their love interests, whereas Lara is an established character with 17 years of history".

    While you and others may see that as a prerequisite for why this aspect of Lara can't change, I would argue that it highlights the very point in why it should change. The very fact that she's 17 years old (IP age) and originates from 4 generations back when the gaming medium was at the beginning of the 3D era and in its infancy of cinematic story telling - games had yet to find their potential as story driven interactive experiences. And there's still so much more potential to b reached.

    Lara is a product of primitive character development, confined by the limits of the tech and medium. Back then most characters were just avatars to jump and attack on command, where character story was very basic "comic book" material of "they are the hero and are born to be awesome" formula.

    But this is now 17 years later and that simplistic character scheme just doesn't cut it any more. To keep Lara thriving today, she has to grow from her simple roots. People have been talking about evolution and that's the point. This is am opportunity to evolve her character development to the standards of modern game story telling. Lara in 2015 and onwards shouldn't still appear to be a product of 5th gen (PS1, N64, Saturn) game design.

    I don't even see this as changing, but really expanding on the foundation of Lara Croft. This isn't to take away from what we expect from her (courage, wit, determination, thirst for knowledge, curiosity and sense of wonder, etc...) but to add to it.

    This kind of character expansion is in the very same vein as what they did to her personality in making her more vulnerable and emotional. Remember how much outcry there was in the beginning? The protests along the lines of "OMG, they made her weak, she's a wuss now, she's not the brave adventurer we knew... THIS IS NOT LARA CROFT... etc...". BUT... over time and as players came to experience this new emotional side of Lara, many turned around and came to embrace this new found humanity. Sure not all but I do think the acceptance now outweighs the opposition.

    With the right kind of writing to show she can have feelings for another person while still being the strong independent explorer, that she need not sacrifice that part of her to have some intimacy in her life, that gamers can come to welcome this as another part of Lara that enriches her life, not taking away from it.

    Oh and to circle back to the RPG angle, with the comparison to Mass Effect (and other Bioware games) there's a reason player options work so well there, but not necessarily for TR. It's not specific to RPG's in the mechanics sense, but how in those games, the character is the players avatar, a product of our creation (even in so far as looks) and not the developers predefined character.

    Lara is not our character, any more then Link, or Master Chief, Ezio, Kratos, Solid Snake, Marcus Feenix, Samus, Max Payne, Kasumi, Batman, and so on. She's a scripted character for the game makers to tell their story, so in that sense it's probably best to leave her character development in their hands. And to that end I advocate we the gaming community should be more open to allow them to expand her in new directions that allow her to grow from how we knew her 17 years ago, so she can remain relevant to the modern gaming space.

    I know I know... "dammit Adobe WHY did you have to make another long-ass post?!?!?!?"
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    Adobe: you sure get an A+ for arguing, but I do think there's a few things you're missing here.

    You're saying: if people don't like certain aspects of Lara's character they'll complain first but will accept it later - look at how there was complains about her getting emotional first and not anymore. Partially true, but I don't remember it to be that much of an outcry, and I think that is due to people realizing that this all was a leadup to Lara becoming the Lara that we know from previous games. In other words: in their heads people knew that this screaming crying Lara was always gonna be temporary.

    Once we got that out of the way it would be time to develop her actual character traits. And to be honest I don't see how they could take a very specific route, giving her some real character traits, and be able to please even HALF of the fanbase... Whether we like or not, whether it is just or not, everybody by now is projecting their own values and personality on her, so whatever they come up with, it always gonna be disappointing to a lot of people.

    Maybe they will adjust as you say, but then there is also the case of Crystal Dynamics having the spine of a goldfish: I think we both know them well enough to know that they would rather keep Lara characterless than to take some actual risk with her. They tried to give character and admosphere to Legend and they suffered a fan crapstorm for it.

    But okay, even if the fanbase would eventually accept it if the developers would decide that Lara collects playing cards and likes to read Umberto Ecco books and that her favourite film is Lawrence of Arabia, it is possible. But how can you possibly expect the fanbase to accept any love interest that they give her? As far as character development goes this is about the biggest thing possible, and it weighs huge for people. Again, because they project themselves on her. A little while ago we got some people who were arguing with crusader like fury that Lara would be a lesbian, because in their eyes she was a lesbian. There is no way in heaven they can just make up a love interest for her without at least half of the fanbase disapproving and another quarter losing their heads over it.
    And again, with Crystal Dynamics being so afraid of risks I think I can fairly safely say that would never ever dare it. So I really do think that going the RPG route is the only shot Lara would ever have at romance. Your arguments not withstanding, because for the most part you make a good case, but I really doubt the stomach of Crystal Dynamics here...

    Besides, I also would just really like a Tomb Raider RPG...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valenka View Post
    Agreed.
    I wouldn't want Tomb Raider to become Skyrim of sorts...well, actually that would be cool. I don't want TR to become a total RPG, but some elements could do it justice. Open world, for starters, with being able to walk around and talk to different people, choose what Lara says, etc. similar to Angel of Darkness and Mass Effect.
    Yup. RPG elements AoD style would be good enough for most people I reckon. TR simply just doesn't lend itself well to become another Final Fantasy, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    [Another long post about verisimilitude]
    You sure are the king of repeating this argument, AA. In how many threads did you post this verisimilitude stuff by now?

    I really don't care about hyper realism in a TR game, nor do I care about verisimilitude, hyper immersion, and all those fancy terms people use to push their personal taste of what a videogame (or rather, TR) should be like.

    The main thing that the devs should concern them with is tomb, tomb, and tombs. Everything else is secondary. And overrated

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurre View Post
    Adobe: you sure get an A+ for arguing
    awww

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurre View Post
    They tried to give character and atmosphere to Legend and they suffered a fan crapstorm for it.
    I don't recall any uproar over Legend

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurre View Post
    But okay, even if the fanbase would eventually accept it if the developers would decide that Lara collects playing cards and likes to read Umberto Ecco books and that her favourite film is Lawrence of Arabia, it is possible.
    You see, this is also in line with what I'd like to see in Lara's development. To explore other avenues of her personality, to see her grow as a fully rounded person, that there's more to her than just her vocation. Of course that's all connected to the substance of what lies beneath the surface of Lara, what makes her tick and to solidify that she's a real person with feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurre View Post
    As far as character development goes this is about the biggest thing possible
    All the more reason it shouldn't be left unaddressed, as it's such an important part of the human experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurre View Post
    Besides, I also would just really like a Tomb Raider RPG...
    Maybe as a spinoff title, like Guardian of Light and Temple of Osris. But then no reason the love interest shouldn't be present in both the main title and expansions. It IS the same person being featured in all of them after all, so the character should be consistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post

    The main thing that the devs should concern them with is tomb, tomb, and tombs. Everything else is secondary. And overrated
    What about verisimilitude for the tombs?
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    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    It IS the same person being featured in all of them after all, so the character should be consistent.
    Noo, no no no

    Tomb Raider - Reboot Lara
    Lara Croft - LAU Lara

    Two totally different women

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    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    What about verisimilitude for the tombs?
    You mean like Lara melting down to a puddle as soon as she sets foot in the lava room? No thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    awww
    Yeah, yeah, but don't let it get to your head alright

    It's just that you don't have to be ashamed for long walls of text: those often say sensible things...

    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    I don't recall any uproar over Legend
    You don't recall the peoples outrage over Lara chatting with Zip and Allister or her searching for her mum? Because how dare they imply that Lara has friends and feelings and cares about her family. What is she? A human being or something??

    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    You see, this is also in line with what I'd like to see in Lara's development. To explore other avenues of her personality, to see her grow as a fully rounded person, that there's more to her than just her vocation. Of course that's all connected to the substance of what lies beneath the surface of Lara, what makes her tick and to solidify that she's a real person with feelings.
    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    All the more reason it shouldn't be left unaddressed, as it's such an important part of the human experience
    I couldn't agree more, but I feel that RPG is the way to do that, for reasons explained above. You're saying that the gaming community should be open and allow the developers to let Lara grow as a person. Well if we could convince every one of them of that I guess things would be hunky dory but this community has always shown itself to be a very conservative one, although less so lately...

    But even for less conservative people I think it would improve their gaming quality if the game would allow them to more or less shape the protagonists character and the overall experience to their taste. If you allow other people to map out the protagonists character you'll never know what you'll get. For instance, would you like my example of Lara collecting cards and watching Lawrence of Arabia? I mean I like Lawrence of Arabia, so I would like it if Lara likes that. But if someone else would say: 'no her favourite movie is Pirates of the Carribean and that's canon now...' I would be like 'ugh'...

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    ok, one thing we are certainly all agreeing on, and has been mentioned earlier, that we want to raid tombs. having a full RPG is something i dont want either.
    if they keep it like in AOD or the riddick game butcher bay. this i can see happening. even when the choices didnt alter the ending, it was still there and didnt deflect from the character either.

    the romance part would be an interesting addition regardless, without diverting laras passion for raiding and caring for her friends. having this part optional would be the best choice without huge altering of her friends and the ending.

    now about the clothing what AA said:
    like i have mentioned a page back, she has to fix and/or even find something to cover her self once her clothing is worn off. i also dont want her to carry lots of clothing with her. doesnt matter if being realistic or not. it would just add more to survival that way. the changing clothing part in the last TR was all nice but the thing was, that they were DLCs and didnt take any damage as her default clothing. plus, you had to find a campfire first to do this. but even if her default clothing for torn, there were plenty of things around she could have used to fix her clothing or even cover her self.

    the river crossing part i have mentioned that she should remove her clothing so that they stay dry would be a very vital survival part.
    what lara can carry with her is a second pair of clothing like a protective suit if she has to enter a very cold or hot area. but then the player should consider changing back to laras normal clothing (once out of the nasty area of course) not to wear it off as well.
    this alone can create some tension that you have to be careful where you go and what you do.
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    I like Adobe's idea of a stash (Presumably back at Lara's base camp) for storing stuff she doesn't need now but might later. As supply caches are a standard survival thing, it even fits with the current theme.

    I like Driber's idea of a sort of indirect reputation system, too, with people reacting to Lara according to how many unnecessary killings she's done. This also might be used to open up or close down side quests, with the nicer people not really trusting a too bloodthirsty Lara. Of course the less nice people might prefer a Lara who kills her foes...

    I agree that different endings aren't too likely in a TR game any time soon.

    Romance - well, I should congratulate MS/SE on finding a way to piss off the fans nearly as much as romantic options would, but only nearly! The problem is that every TR fan has a very firm idea of what Lara gets up to (Or doesn't!) off screen. Whether she is Aphrodite, Artemis or Sappho is surely best left in the minds of the players.
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    Nope, I don't agree with romance elements. At all. Whether it be part of official lore, or shoe-horned into a game via an RPG system, romancing is something best left to other games. Lara doesn't need it.

    There's a great RPG style game out there to satisfy people's needs for shipping, it's called Mass Effect

    And do not put condescending labels like "conservative fan" or "stubborn old Lara fan" on everyone who doesn't agree with your obsession to vicariously get into Lara's pants, and do not smugly call yourself a "progressive fan" when you merely have different ideas on how to "humanize" Lara's character (something which I believe to be a false dichotomy, as I am certain all fans support a "more human" Lara ).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    Nope, I don't agree with romance elements. At all. Whether it be part of official lore, or shoe-horned into a game via an RPG system, romancing is something best left to other games. Lara doesn't need it.

    There's a great RPG style game out there to satisfy people's needs for shipping, it's called Mass Effect

    And do not put condescending labels like "conservative fan" or "stubborn old Lara fan" on everyone who doesn't agree with your obsession to vicariously get into Lara's pants, and do not smugly call yourself a "progressive fan" when you merely have different ideas on how to "humanize" Lara's character (something which I believe to be a false dichotomy, as I am certain all fans support a "more human" Lara ).
    Yup. I agree! Romance doesn't suit to a TOMB RAIDER game. I have had enough with Lara and Curtis ( which wasn't actually a romance , sort of )
    "Death by irony is always painful...amateurs" ~ Lara Croft 2006

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    lol, in a way we did have another Lara and Kurtis moment in the new game...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    lol, in a way we did have another Lara and Kurtis moment in the new game...
    Uh... meaning?? You mean you want another Lara & Kurtis?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CroftManiac View Post
    Yup. I agree! Romance doesn't suit to a TOMB RAIDER game. I have had enough with Lara and Curtis ( which wasn't actually a romance , sort of )
    If you read my post #4, you see that in RPG style romance is always optional - the player can always choose whether to do it or not. So there's no reason why anyone should be against it.

    It's one of the reasons why I think that this would be a better way to do that than just shoving the romance into the story like Adobe proposes... Sorry Adobe but you see that not everyone is up to this...

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    Quote Originally Posted by CroftManiac View Post
    Uh... meaning?? You mean you want another Lara & Kurtis?
    lol no. I was jokingly referring to the Vlad scene

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurre View Post
    If you read my post #4, you see that in RPG style romance is always optional - the player can always choose whether to do it or not. So there's no reason why anyone should be against it.
    Oh there is. I think you're just kind of too stubborn to see / acknowledge it. No offense. Believe me, "optional" is not the holy grail you think it is, not by a long shot, good Sir.

    Apart from romance options, I can name a whole bunch of other things which the devs could hypothetically put in a TR game as an option which would piss off a lot of fans and cause huge controversies in the media

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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    lol no. I was jokingly referring to the Vlad scene



    Oh there is. I think you're just kind of too stubborn to see / acknowledge it. No offense. Believe me, "optional" is not the holy grail you think it is, not by a long shot, good Sir.

    Apart from romance options, I can name a whole bunch of other things which the devs could hypothetically put in a TR game as an option which would piss off a lot of fans and cause huge controversies in the media
    Couldn't agree more!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    lol no. I was jokingly referring to the Vlad scene



    Oh there is. I think you're just kind of too stubborn to see / acknowledge it. No offense. Believe me, "optional" is not the holy grail you think it is, not by a long shot, good Sir.

    Apart from romance options, I can name a whole bunch of other things which the devs could hypothetically put in a TR game as an option which would piss off a lot of fans and cause huge controversies in the media
    not to sound like a stubborn jerk but can you give an explanation why "optional" can not work? why should that piss of fans? if it would be forced, i can fully understand that but optional? i must be really missing something here to comprehend that.
    so what optional parts would piss off fans you think the devs could change? lara can choose between shooting 1 handgun or 2?

    only because we have mass effect for these "optional" romance, doesnt mean its only good for these games. after all, ME also got under fire when they announced that you can romance a man when you play as a male character. it was freaking optional and people still cried out. if you are referring that this will be same for TR as well then i simply have to shake my head to that.
    i might come across like an idiot now for saying this and i sure dont mean any disrespect here and towards others but as i said, i just like to understand why optional is still seen as a problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurre View Post

    I couldn't agree more
    That's all I needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurre View Post
    I mean I like Lawrence of Arabia, so I would like it if Lara likes that. But if someone else would say: 'no her favourite movie is Pirates of the Carribean and that's canon now...' I would be like 'ugh'...
    You see, that's where I think you take the way people identify with a character all wrong. It doesn't have to be a sharing of identical interests or personality traits. It just has to be some form of characterization that makes the fiction more real, so people simply get "this is a person with their own motives, ambitions, feelings, wants, needs, perspective, idiosyncrasies, etc...". Even if it's not the exact same as the given viewer, it's still a shared commonality to have these traits at all. For example, we don't all like the same music, but interest in music in general terms is a common characteristic among groups of people.

    As long as you create that foundation, audiences can still identify that character as another person with traits, while not "exact" are still similar enough to relate to.

    I mean are all your friends in your life "exactly" like you? Do you not identify with them because their perspective isn't like yours? Of course you get them. If they feel attraction for Asian girls while yours leans towards Latina (random example) your friend isn't going to become alien to you. I'm sure you would perfectly understand that the basic feelings of attraction are the same as yours, just not in the specific details.

    So let's not feel that we're alienating any portion of the audience if Lara turns out to like steaks, that vegetarians can no longer identify with Lara. We ALL have preferences for food that doesn't have to be the same to understand that preference. Hunger is a common experience after all.

    Same with sexuality. What ever the preferences, everybody gets that we all have feelings of attraction, and it doesn't have to be the same as each individual. It just has to be there to make a character more believable as a person. Even if a lesbian wanted to see Lara as a lesbian, do you think they couldn't understand it if she was attracted to men? It's still an attraction one way or the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    Lara doesn't need it.
    Oh come ON now, of course she needs it. We ALL do. I don't mean romance either in that lovey dovey Disney sense either. Doesn't have to be a formal relationship. Just some form of connection with another person, weather that's intimate, physical, emotional, carnal, or any combination thereof.

    To accept the supernatural elements of a TR story takes suspension of disbelief. But to actually believe that a young healthy woman is devoid of feelings an needs, or that she never experiences attraction... that's just foolish naivete.

    We all get an itch that needs to be scratched

    Quote Originally Posted by Metalrocks View Post


    now about the clothing what AA said:
    like i have mentioned a page back, she has to fix and/or even find something to cover her self once her clothing is worn off. i also dont want her to carry lots of clothing with her. doesnt matter if being realistic or not. it would just add more to survival that way. the changing clothing part in the last TR was all nice but the thing was, that they were DLCs and didnt take any damage as her default clothing. plus, you had to find a campfire first to do this. but even if her default clothing for torn, there were plenty of things around she could have used to fix her clothing or even cover her self.

    the river crossing part i have mentioned that she should remove her clothing so that they stay dry would be a very vital survival part.
    what lara can carry with her is a second pair of clothing like a protective suit if she has to enter a very cold or hot area. but then the player should consider changing back to laras normal clothing (once out of the nasty area of course) not to wear it off as well.
    this alone can create some tension that you have to be careful where you go and what you do.
    That reminds me of something I forgot to mention before, about having to fashion makeshift clothing to replace outfits damaged beyond repair; how that would make an additional use of the deer in the game, as both food and survival resources.

    Plus, if they got dirty she'd have to wash them by a pool, not to mention needing to clean herself up by a waterfall
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    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    You see, that's where I think you take the way people identify with a character all wrong. It doesn't have to be a sharing of identical interests or personality traits.
    Well of course the favourite movie is a simple example, but I don't see a reason to feel so optimistic about the community (and the reason that matters of course is because Crystal D will try to please the community)

    I mean look how much ruckus it caused when Lara's face in the HD was minutely altered. That's just one example of how much people regard Lara to be their character and don't accept alterations.

    You and I may be open to change in that regard but I don't feel that that is the case for most of the people here.

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    Oh, I'm pretty sure even optional stuff will piss off some people, it's in their nature. Bioware has romanceable characters. For some, they are a nice addition to the experience. For other, they are a must, and won't buy the game if they can't romance someone. (?!?) And others get offended that there is a gay character that can be romanced, even tho they absolutely don't even have to talk to him, much less romance him.
    People always find a reason to complain, just because a feature exists. They feel entitled that a game should be as they want it to be and nothing else. People complained about the Survival Instinct, even tho they knew it was button-triggered, and thus optional. Can you imagine the outrage for something bigger? And it makes me sad.
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  21. #46

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    I think most TR fans are up for the game to evolve, but evolve means 'build on what's there' rather than 'something totally new'.

    It's why I'm suggesting deepening what's already there rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, as it were.

    Personally, I have never been in favour of Lara having a romance. I see her as Artemis, and prefer her that way. So I would never use romance options myself. But, I think it might be an idea to have them in for those who do want them.

    Of course that would add complication, but it's the only possible way to put romance in at all without 90% of the fanbase combusting, IMO.

    EDIT: Though I do agree with D1no's point that some fans do complain at having options they don't have to take, I think those are the type of fans who will complain at any darn thing, so pleasing them is impossible, anyway.
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalrocks View Post
    only because we have mass effect for these "optional" romance, doesnt mean its only good for these games.
    I am not disagreeing with that. But similar to that notion, my argument is this: just because it worked in a game like ME, doesn't mean it's necessarily good for any other game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metalrocks View Post
    not to sound like a stubborn jerk but can you give an explanation why "optional" [would not necessarily work]? why should that piss of fans? if it would be forced, i can fully understand that but optional? i must be really missing something here to comprehend that.
    I had to fix your quote to make it true to what I actually said.

    Oh no, I don't think you sound like a jerk at all

    And I'm happy to elaborate why I think that "optional" is not the holy grail that some people make it out to be. Are you ready? This is gonna be a long one (and crude here and there).


    Reason #1: Execution.

    The popular mantra we hear all the time is "if done well, it could really work". Yeah, no , Sherlock. IF done well, ANYTHING *could* be good. This is not really an argument as it is empty platitude. We ALL want EVERYTHING do be "done well". The thing is that doing something well is subjective. One may say "I really like the loads of action in TR9; it was a lot more exciting than any of the previous games; they really did it well" whereas the next person may say "ugh, there was way too much action in TR9; the puzzle/combat ratio was very unbalanced; they really didn't do it well".

    So one person's idea of "good" execution may vastly differ from another person's idea of "good" execution. With that said, it's likely going to be very easy to botch it in the eyes of a large group of people. We've already seen people complain about the plot/characters in TR9; people used terms such as "boring", "unimaginative", "flat characters", "token characters", "laughable dialogue", etc etc.

    And this was without romance elements. Now imagine TR for the first time in its history dabbling with romance elements, and the game ending up with what some people will call "boring", "unimaginative", "flat characters", "token characters", "laughable dialogue", etc etc.

    The mistake you guys are making is that just because something might be optional, doesn't mean it will be any good. Who knows, we might just end up with a totally cheesy game that will go down in the history of TR as the biggest flop since AoD. Now, you may say "well I trust the devs to do it right" or "but it would be better than no romance elements at all", but to those kinds of admittances of the high level of desperation you want to pair off Lara to someone I can only shake head to.


    Reason #2: Dev Resources

    Turning TR into a Mass Effect type of RPG game is going to cost money and dev time. You can't get around that. It means SE has to invest more money into a completely new concept (for this series) that has not even proven itself to be successful. So that's already a big risk from the publisher's POV; a publisher who seems to be in financial woes and a publisher who seems to be focusing more and more on the mobile game market and seems to more and more view tripple A console games as a risk.

    If SE doesn't want to invest extra into turning TR into an RPG, then the dev costs are going to have to come from somewhere else. That may mean that the more work is done to do this RPG stuff, the less work can be put into -- what arguably most people would consider to be -- more important things like tombs, tombs, and tombs; UI optimization; voice acting; motion capture, etc.

    Now, some may rebut to this, saying "well you're just selfish then". Alright, fine, I'm selfish for caring more about gameplay etc than about romance options. There, I'm guilty of being selfish. So what?

    Or some may rebut to this, saying "well, there are other things that are even less important than gameplay and still get made, such as that useless MP stuff in TR9". Alright, so you think MP is useless - go advocate against MP in your own thread and stop dangling a red herring in front of my face in this discussion

    Then there is also the argument to be made that a large chunk of the game contents will never be used by a good chunk of people, which would be a waste of dev time.


    Reason #3: Ewww, Gay Cooties.

    If CD is going to include RPG style romancing options, they better include gay options as well if they want to remain politically correct. This in turn is sure to cause a storm of controversy. You thought the backlash to the gay romancing options in a relatively new franchise like ME was bad? Try doing it with a 16+ year old established straight* character who has never been romanced in a TR game in the entire history of the series.

    *This post says it all. You want to claim ambiguity, or interpret Lara as gay just because she holds hands with her best friend Sam? Knock yourself out, but IMVHO you're fooling yourself with wishful thinking. No offense.

    Now, as a supporter of gay rights, I have nothing but disdain for those who get all up in arms about gay characters in videogames and who spew religious hatred towards fellow human beings just for the sake of their sexual orientation. So you won't see me joining in with any rage if Lara was made gay. However, I do tend to live in the real world, and like it or not, we have to deal with the real world consequences of possible gay romance options in a TR game. Do I like the fact that it would ignite a storm? No. Would I prefer to avoid it by simply not going there at all? Hell yeah. TR is one of is my favorite games, and therefore I'm a bit protective of it. Especially since the franchise has been on shaky grounds numerous times during its history.


    Reason #4: Hypocrisy?

    For anyone making the argument "if it's optional, it won't bother anyone", I would like to know if they are okay with all of the following optional scenarios in a TR game:

    1) Lara being nude (menu option nudity ON/OFF)

    2) Giving the player control over Lara's breast size (menu slider bar to make her as flat as board or as big as Lolo Ferrari)

    3) Wide range of romancing options, including pairing off Lara with men, women, children (pedophilia), 'Vlad the rapist', etc.

    4) Optional rape scene. And no, I'm not talking about the "rape" some people think happened in TR9, but an actual, full-on, violent, tearing off clothes, rape scene.

    5) Sex scenes. Depending on how you romance Lara, she will end up getting hot and heavy with some biker guy who has real rough sex with her and she screams her lungs out. Clips of this will be uploaded and it will be all over the interwebs but not as a third party mod, but as something CD officially made as an option in the official game.

    6) Outfits galore. Players will be able to dress up Lara any way they please, just like a Barbie doll. It will not be restricted to a few basic outfits, but anything ranging from fully dressed up military clothes to butt floss bikinis to BDSM latex outfits (and complimentary masks; after all, we don't know what Lara really gets up to in the privacy of her bedroom, right...?).

    7) Suicide themes and substance abuse. Lara is turned into an emo girl and the player gets the option either drink a full bottle of tequila to numb her mental pain, or to cut herself with a razor blade, or to inject herself with meth.

    My guess is that there will be very few people who will be okay with all of the above, despite everything being fully optional.


    Reason #5: Lore Inconsistencies

    For better or worse, Lara is what the devs say she is. Lara looks the way the dev say she looks.

    We are already seeing so much bickering in the TR community about how Lara should be and how she should look like. A common argument I hear is "well, just give players full control over Lara's actions / Lara's looks, and then there would be no more bickering, because then people will just create the Lara they would like to see and everyone will be happy". NO! I do not believe this for one second. If anything, I fear that this will only increase the bickering. After all, when fans are used to (literally) shaping Lara with every game, they will only feel more strongly about how their Lara is. Which brings me to my next point...


    Reason #6: Fan Entitlement.

    Fans who shape their Lara into their own image (by adjusting her looks with slider bars and all that jazz, and with romancing her a certain way, etc) it will perpetuate and worsen their sense of entitlement. For example, people who continuously ship Lara with another woman will eventually just complain to the devs "just make it official lore already!", or people who continuously place their breast slider bars to the max will just feel more empowered to demand "TR1 promotional Lara back!!!".

    You know the saying, "Give them an inch..."

    Again, for better or for worse, it's the devs who determine how Lara looks and who she is. I think it should stay that way, for consistency sake in the very least.

    The series has already seen so many different versions of Lara, and one of the number 1 complaints we hear in the official wishlists is "KEEP LARA'S LOOKS THE SAME!". Do we really on top of that want to split Lara's character even more?

    My god, poor Lara will end up having MPD galore!


    Reason #7: Fans Are Fickle.

    Yep, you read that correct, fans are fickle. How many times have we seen fans totally embracing an idea one day, and completely hating it the next. Even right here in this discussion I see people who are advocating romance options who are known for doing 180's on some issues that they said they were convinced they are correct on before.

    So even those who right now believe that romance options are a wonderful thing for a TR game may end up regretting advocating for it if CD indeed implements it and it turns out it isn't what they pictures it in their heads.

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  23. #48
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    Yeah, we strayed too much into the impossible, whenever we try to discuss RPG elements, romancing comes to mind. Can we discuss about thing that actually matter to TR, like tombs, exploration and combat? Those thing are where the game could benefit from some RPG elements. I would love to know what you guys think of my idea of upgrading your guns or special weapons with different kinds of elemental damage, or other stat bonuses or buffs
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    Oh come ON now, of course she needs it. We ALL do. I don't mean romance either in that lovey dovey Disney sense either. Doesn't have to be a formal relationship. Just some form of connection with another person, weather that's intimate, physical, emotional, carnal, or any combination thereof.
    As usual, you are diluting the romance topic. When you include everything from carnal lust to mere emotional support, it's no wonder that this debate never gets settled

    Look, I'll explain it once more - no one is against Lara having meaningful relationships with friends who can emotionally support her whenever she goes through distress (which, in her line of work, inevitably comes around the corner more than your average couch potato ) and with whom she can unwind after a long day killing off baddies, etc.

    However, Lara (as in the fictional character) doesn't need a romantic relationship in her life at this moment in time; she is too busy raiding tombs and she doesn't feel like she can combine the two even if she had the opportunity to try.

    This is the stuff coming from the devs themselves. Who are you to claim otherwise?

    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    To accept the supernatural elements of a TR story takes suspension of disbelief. But to actually believe that a young healthy woman is devoid of feelings an needs, or that she never experiences attraction... that's just foolish naivete.
    Oh come ON now, AA. I never claimed this. And you know better than that.

    Please stop putting words into my mouth. We've had this exact same discussion already before, AA. If I didn't know any better, I would think you're intentionally trying to twist my words to ridicule me...

    My argument is and always has been - Lara obviously has feelings, she is not a robot, but keep any romancing out of the games.

    Quote Originally Posted by d1n0_xD View Post
    Oh, I'm pretty sure even optional stuff will piss off some people, it's in their nature. Bioware has romanceable characters. For some, they are a nice addition to the experience. For other, they are a must, and won't buy the game if they can't romance someone. (?!?) And others get offended that there is a gay character that can be romanced, even tho they absolutely don't even have to talk to him, much less romance him.
    People always find a reason to complain, just because a feature exists. They feel entitled that a game should be as they want it to be and nothing else. People complained about the Survival Instinct, even tho they knew it was button-triggered, and thus optional. Can you imagine the outrage for something bigger? And it makes me sad.
    I don't disagree, but while it may be sad, it's the reality we have to work with.

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  25. #50
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    I'm against a full on RPG
    In trying to be a dozen different things Lara would have no single identity, She'd be everyone and no one
    Plus I want everything that happens to be canon not an option

    I would like more choice in the way of hairstyles and outfits though-But I'm not bloody paying extra for it
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