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Thread: This series will never recover

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiadaw View Post
    I feel bad for anyone that bought a Saturn or Dreamcast, & any Sonic games for the past 10 years.
    Why?
    I bought a brand new, untouched Dreamcast for $10 and a few games that I played as a kid. Nothing wrong with that.
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    If Square knows what is good for the franchise(after making this deal I don't think they do) then they will have their lawyers working on finding a way out of it all together or to make it as short as possible. Otherwise they have sealed Lara's fate and Tomb Raider will be no more. Also they have some serious work to if they want to regain the trust of the fans and that means no more preferential treatment to Microsoft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphdawg1 View Post
    If Square knows what is good for the franchise(after making this deal I don't think they do) then they will have their lawyers working on finding a way out of it all together or to make it as short as possible. Otherwise they have sealed Lara's fate and Tomb Raider will be no more. Also they have some serious work to if they want to regain the trust of the fans and that means no more preferential treatment to Microsoft.
    What?! Lara will never die! They have to screw it up a lot more if they want to kill her! Nobody touches my little bird! I think they need to spend money on adds and commercials. That would really help them getting more money and more people would know about TR, so that TR will never end! If they would end TR then I would come to them personally and punch them in their faces (or I would not do this). Nobody kills my little bird.... They have to kill me first, and I'm bloody sirieus.
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  4. #54
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    I'm really so sick of people saying that Tomb Raider will end because of this whole thing. Tomb Raider will only end if the community and fans stop supporting it.

    And if you stop supporting it over ONE bad decision in seventeen or eighteen years, you're not a true fan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valenka View Post
    I'm really so sick of people saying that Tomb Raider will end because of this whole thing. Tomb Raider will only end if the community and fans stop supporting it.

    And if you stop supporting it over ONE bad decision in seventeen or eighteen years, you're not a true fan.
    exactly! There are companies who made a lot more mistakes, and they still exist, so if they can do it so can CD, and TR and Lara are to amazing for it to end.
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    Activision makes mistakes every single day. Every time they decide to release a new Call of Duty is another mistake chalked up for them. Taking over the James Bond game series and ruining it was a mistake.

    A prime example there: the James Bond games are over because Activision ruined it with their poor excuses for games with Quantum of Solace, Blood Stone and 007 Legends. The game franchise only ended because of Activision's stupidity. The community is still strong and many people want another Bond game, just not in the hands of Activision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valenka View Post
    I'm really so sick of people saying that Tomb Raider will end because of this whole thing. Tomb Raider will only end if the community and fans stop supporting it.

    And if you stop supporting it over ONE bad decision in seventeen or eighteen years, you're not a true fan.
    What happened to Core Design with AOD shows how mistakes can very quickly end things. I think everyone want to support the series but if CD do go that step and make a game permanent exclusive then we couldn't buy it to support it at all. If I went to a restaurant and watched other people getting top quality service but always had to wait ages whilst the same people got service eventually I would be fed up. I wouldn't leave TR but others may. I don't think ONE bad decision is enough to make people leave but if CD keep this direction and it goes from ONE to MANY bad decisions with future exclusivity deals then that community support could be in danger.
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    As long as it doesn't come to PS4 I'm simply not buying or playing it. I doubt it will be the end for the franchise though. Lara Croft and her sidescrolling adventures will still be there. Also, like someone wrote before me, it was far off the spirit of the original games. TR9 was a good game, but a bad Tomb Raider game, in my opinion at least. So I would prefer if they let me support it, but if not, I don't really care much. I still have to replay the classics on PS3.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valenka View Post
    I'm really so sick of people saying that Tomb Raider will end because of this whole thing. Tomb Raider will only end if the community and fans stop supporting it.

    And if you stop supporting it over ONE bad decision in seventeen or eighteen years, you're not a true fan.
    I agree with you, but the fanbase isn't enough to support the franchise anymore.

    We weren't enough to save AOD and then Underworld. The mainstream audience (I don't know how to label them) needs to be on board with these things if they want to reach that wider market to sell more copies, otherwise if they're not happy then the series can easily be ended again. Just like we did with AOD and Underworld and fans could do nothing but sit and watch them try and put the pieces of the franchise back together... (that's if they feel it's worth it anymore).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valenka View Post
    A prime example there: the James Bond games are over because Activision ruined it with their poor excuses for games with Quantum of Solace, Blood Stone and 007 Legends. The game franchise only ended because of Activision's stupidity. The community is still strong and many people want another Bond game, just not in the hands of Activision.
    Woah hold on! What's wrong with Blood Stone!? I thought that game was great!

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    No such thing as a "true fan". The term is a self-aggrandizing, "more fan than thou" moniker that serves no purpose whatsoever.

    Recently, I have renounced fandom over everything, from Star Wars to Star Trek to Battlestar Galactica to The Last of Us to Tomb Raider....for the simple reason that whenever a given franchise tries to take on a new direction/approach, it causes often hostile divisiveness in the fan bases....to the point of petty shots at one another, and sometimes even worse, costing friendships. Also, fans have a bull***t sense of entitlement to a property they absolutely do not own. ("George Lucas, please, don't take my Star Wars awaaaayyyyy.....I wrote the next part!"). Fans also tend to self-victimize over the inconsequential....and as such, flame wars can begin from such "victimizations".

    My new philosophy is a simple one that applies to all things I still love, but just don't consider myself to be fanatical about anymore: "Don't Be a Fan. Don't Be a Victim!"
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    I think thats a bit harsh, Lord Matok. I'm a fan of a lot of stuff and when people tell me I'm not a "real" fan of something because I have forgotten stuff I simply say "whatever, its on ME to decide of what I'm a fan or not". I'm not a victim because I'm a fan. If they turn stuff around then, well, I'm a fan of the older stuff and don't care anymore for the newer stuff or simply watch/play it out of nostalgia.

    The thing is, TR1 was a good game and it was on top at the time. For that time the gameplay graphics and the graphics of the Cutscenes were AMAZING. I still remember the jawdropping.
    Underworld was a really good game. But Uncharted came out 2007 and it was simply more modern than 2008 Underworld. The original TR had no real rival. NOW Uncharted is a rival. TR2013 is a good game and it looks good enough. But in lieu of achieving a modern style it lost the original spirit. TR1 was in its time showing the world what a modern game should look and feel like. TR2013 looks beautiful but its not a trendsetter.

    If I would make Rise it would look as beautiful as TR2013, hell, I would only develop it for Xbone and PS4, not 360 and PS3, So that I can make it look as beautiful as possible. I would get rid of a lot of minor characters (and write Samsel in distress out), I would let it take place partly in the manor, maybe even start there. I would love for Rise to show us Original Lara in a trendsetting game. Not a modern Lara without real trendsetting awesome qualities. Don't make her hip but the game just meh. Make her the one we've fallen in love with in the first place and make the game awesome.

  13. #63
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    ^ Don't mind Lord Martok's opinion on "fans" too much. He has a very strict definition of the term (fan = fanatic; extremely devoted, zealous, etc).

    I myself apply a more loose definition. To me, a TR fan can be anything from someone who just likes the franchise, tries to buy most games and pops by on the forum around launch time only, to someone who obsessively collects every single TR merch in existence and who is watching for every scrap of new information on a new game every single day and who loses their mind when even the cleaning lady at the CD office tweets the most insignificant tidbit

    According to Wikipedia, even LM himself is a fan, although he doesn't like to call himself one

    Fans have a desire for external involvement – they are motivated to demonstrate their involvement with the area of interest through certain behaviors (attending conventions, posting online, displaying team banners outside their homes, etc.). Fans often have a "wish to acquire" material objects related to the area of interest, such as a baseball hit by a famous slugger or a used guitar pick from their musical hero. As well, some fans have a desire for social interaction with other fans. This again may take many forms, from casual conversation, e-mail, chat rooms, and electronic mailing lists to regular face-to-face meetings such as fan club meetings and organized conventions.

    There are several groups of fans that can be differentiated by the intensity level of their level of involvement or interest in the hobby

    source
    Notice the bold parts.

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  14. #64
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    I can agree, to a point, with the assessment Driber quoted.

    Beast, I did fail to mention that even though I no longer consider myself a fan of anything, anymore, it would be a disservice to not say that if it weren't for fandoms, I would not have met so many wonderful people, many of whom have become my friends.

    But, I have found that the petty infighting among factions of fan-bases, the unfounded self-entitlement, the strictures of "canon police", the fans who try to tell you that you cannot support Version Y of Franchise A because it is not the true version like Version X is....those are just a few of the reasons why I have renounced my fan status....and simply consider myself an admirer. One can be a follower, without being a fan. . By "follow", I simply mean keeping up with the paces and trends of one's favored IP's/shows/movies, etc, without worrying overly about how changes (no matter how slight or how drastic) will affect my appreciation of sich things.

    I was initially opposed to TR Reborn because there were certain things I associated with Lara Croft that absolutely were not present there...regardless that this was a reboot. However, if I really respected the character of Lara Croft, then I needed to give the new game a chance....so I did, and I did enjoy the game, despite those things I missed. By not being a fan, however, I spared myself the "butt-hurt" that some, not all fans feel whenever something has been so radically changed that it alters their view of just who Lara is. Now, that said, I don't ever wanna see Lara become a dude. We already have two such "dudes": Indiana Jones (the inspiration for Lara Croft), and Nathan Drake (inspired by both Indiana and Lara, and in turn, part of the inspiration for the direction in which Lara currently finds herself.)

    I could go on and on...but there's no need to. I ain't here to preach.
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    I'd probably describe myself as a "big, yet casual fan". I have no problem with the label "fan" because, as I mentioned, fans come in many flavours, heh. I think it's a shame to denounce yourself as a "fan" just because some fandoms have been known to be self-destructive. But hey, your choice

    Just one thing to note - often times "fan" is synonymous to "supporter". And I'm sure we can all agree there is no big stigma attached to being a fan of your local football team, if we leave those zealous hooligans out of the equation

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  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by a big house View Post
    Woah hold on! What's wrong with Blood Stone!? I thought that game was great!
    Blood Stone was okay, in my opinion.
    Graphics were terrible, the story line was a little ridiculous and the overused marketing of the smartphone was a bit much.

    I think the only redeeming factor was Joss Stone's character, voice acting and singing of the theme song, 'I'll Take It All.'

    One thing I especially hated was that Bond couldn't pick up different handguns. The PPK and the P99 were both in the game, yet he could never use the PPK that enemies dropped, even though screenshots and the back of the game box show him holding one.
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    I think the petty in-fighting and self-destructiveness you see in every fandom sooner or later to an extent, depends just on how big it gets and IMHO how young the fans tend to be. Somehow I often just see people complaining about this but not the in-fighting itself. But then again I don't read that much of fandom-inherent discussions. (Honestly the only fandom, that I experienced, without this, yet, is the Musketeers(BBC) fandom but there are Dumas-Fans that hate the BBC-Show without giving it even a chance, so, there.)

    As always I hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

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    Yeah, the in-fighting and bickering usually starts when a franchise/property decides to branch off in a new direction....especially in reboots/remakes/reimaginings.

    Examples: The recent Star Trek movies. Although they are in the vocal minority, some old-school hardcores tend to blast the new movies because they think the new movies are mindless action romps that defecate all over what they feel is the "spirit" of Star Trek, and some even go so far as to openly blast and insult anyone, even lifelong fans, who enjoy the new movies.

    The reimagining of Battlestar Galactica. The radical change in characters and direction had some old schoolers up in arms. Some folks who supported the new show got pretty ugly in response to old school opposition to the production of the show...and some old schoolers got equally ugly. Some even made death threats against actress Katee Sackhoff who played Starbuck in the new series for a snarky comment she made on The Lowdown, just before the miniseries premiered on SciFi (as it was known back then).

    This is why I renounce fandom. I want to enjoy what I want to enjoy without a bunch of fanboys/fangirls telling me what is right and what is wrong in their dogmatic and myopic points of view....to say nothing of the lengths some fans will go to to express their displeasure.
    Last edited by Lord Martok; 08-24-2014 at 08:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Martok View Post
    to say nothing of the lengths some fans will go to to express their displeasure.
    I tend to liken "fandom" of something to a religion: Most of them are peaceful in nature, practice respect towards one another, and genuinely believe in the goodness of the what it is they believe in. And, much like any religion, there will always be a group of people who take the dedication too far into extremes. The intent is good, but the approach is wrong.

    I'm not trying to start a religious debate here, I'm just saying no matter what it is that has a following, there will always be "extremists".

    Be it baseball, Jesus, Tomb Raider, or even heavy metal fans. Some people just get very passionate sometimes. Is it annoying? Absolutely it can be. Does it make them idiots? Perhaps, depending. Is it human nature? Very well could be.

    I suppose what I mean to say by this is sometimes you just have to accept the eccentrics and just shrug them off. They will always be there in one form or another.
    Last edited by WinterSoldier; 08-25-2014 at 02:27 AM. Reason: Added the last sentence for clarification.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Martok View Post
    Yeah, the in-fighting and bickering usually starts when a franchise/property decides to branch off in a new direction....especially in reboots/remakes/reimaginings.

    Examples: The recent Star Trek movies. Although they are in the vocal minority, some old-school hardcores tend to blast the new movies because they think the new movies are mindless action romps that defecate all over what they feel is the "spirit" of Star Trek, and some even go so far as to openly blast and insult anyone, even lifelong fans, who enjoy the new movies.

    The reimagining of Battlestar Galactica. The radical change in characters and direction had some old schoolers up in arms. Some folks who supported the new show got pretty ugly in response to old school opposition to the production of the show...and some old schoolers got equally ugly. Some even made death threats against actress Katee Sackhoff who played Starbuck in the new series for a snarky comment she made on The Lowdown, just before the miniseries premiered on SciFi (as it was known back then).

    This is why I renounce fandom. I want to enjoy what I want to enjoy without a bunch of fanboys/fangirls telling me what is right and what is wrong in their dogmatic and myopic points of view....to say nothing of the lengths some fans will go to to express their displeasure.
    I completely understand where you're coming from, Steve. Though I must say that with this particular community it's really nowhere near as bad as with the examples you provided.

    Sure, we do get some really hardCore fans (see what I did there?) here once in a blue moon who drill any new game by Crystal into the ground with the most hateful speech you can imagine, but the vast majority of the time it's quite pleasant to be a part of this fandom (to the extend of the places I frequent, that is).

    Quote Originally Posted by WinterSoldier View Post
    I tend to liken "fandom" of something to a religion: Most of them are peaceful in nature, practice respect towards one another, and genuinely believe in the goodness of the what it is they believe in. And, much like any religion, there will always be a group of people who take the dedication too far into extremes. The intent is good, but the approach is wrong.

    I'm not trying to start a religious debate here, I'm just saying no matter what it is that has a following, there will always be "extremists".

    Be it baseball, Jesus, Tomb Raider, or even heavy metal fans. Some people just get very passionate sometimes. Is it annoying? Absolutely it can be. Does it make them idiots? Perhaps, depending. Is it human nature? Very well could be.

    I suppose what I mean to say by this is sometimes you just have to accept the eccentrics and just shrug them off. They will always be there in one form or another.
    Well said

    If I may build on what you wrote and make another analogy - if the TR fan community can be compared to the christian religion, with all the separate sub-communities and denominations (Core fans, Crystal fans, etc) then surely these forums is the Mormon church

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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    If I may build on what you wrote and make another analogy - if the TR fan community can be compared to the christian religion, with all the separate sub-communities and denominations (Core fans, Crystal fans, etc) then surely these forums is the Mormon church
    Keeley fans, Camilla fans...

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    There's Camilla fans?! EWW!

    What kind of FLAWP "fans"?


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    Oh please, EA/DICE royally screwed BF fans when they released an unfinished BF4 and that game sold bucket loads regardless.

    ROTT will do well on the XB1 and when PS4/PC owners finally get it, it will sell a ton.

    I can't see the delay being anything more than three to four months as the game still needs to be relevant.

    All the money MS are throwing at the game is going to turn out a more polished product and CD taking their time with it (TR 2013 was four months late which upset SE, and ROTT is Holiday 2015 which is a long wait for a franchise sequel in modern, mainstream gaming) ensures it's success and quality.

    It just sucks for us PC/PS4 owners who can't borrow a friend's XB1 that we have to wait.


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    Remember when Square Enix didn't like the original TR sales?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gitb90 View Post
    Remember when Square Enix didn't like the original TR sales?
    Yep. More reason why Microsoft's deal is more lucrative to Crystal Dynamics. If they can give them financial security under the game's development then it's all good and SE doesn't have to worry as much about throwing millions into the game and making losses.
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