Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 154

Thread: INSTINCT?

  1. #51
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    11

    Default

    I've just quickly read the comments here, and noticed a lot of arguments revolve around "how realistic" the game "metadata" should be. I see both map & instinct as metadata features.

    My personal opinion is that "how realistic" is simply not part of the equation. Un-realistic "things" are found all over the place in video games, even in previous Hitman games.

    Plus, a lot of seemingly "unrealistic" game mechanisms are found in some of the most successful and fun games out there. E.g. boss fights in Metal Gear series are known to use very simple mechanics. Bosses move in an initial pattern, which you have to become familiar, then when their HP goes down they change into a more complex pattern, you need to familiarise again! Now... this is extremely unrealistic, but also very fun! I don't put stock in "realisticness" in video games. I put stock in "fun mechanics"

    So in line with that, what concerns me is: what makes Hitman an engaging & unique experience? To me, the answer is: "WHEN I HAVE TO USE MY BRAIN TO SOLVE MISSIONS"

    If I am given exclamation mark on the map, denoting something special about say "the left-top corner of a room". Then I need to explore that "corner of the room". Even if I get to that room, I might still have to scratch my head and have a play around. This is FUN.

    If I use my x-man goggles and see exactly that it is the drink that's on the table that I need to poison, then, I don't need to explore anymore. I know exactly where to do what. This is NOT FUN to me at least.

    An even MORE FUN way of giving hints, is to perhaps highlight an entire room, instead of locating with an exclamation mark. This way I have to enter the room and explore it fully. USE MY BRAIN, try different things and come to my own conclusions.

    Perhaps this is the "unique niche" which Hitman occupies: "the game which lets players get lost and find their own way and get a sense of accomplishment". So I would suggest to the devs at IO to promote this kind of gameplay regardless of whether it's instincts or maps or whatever. Simple create a mechanic which promote: exploration, getting lost, going back and forth, scratching your head, solving puzzles, finding distant correlations, etc.

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Stasis
    Posts
    680

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by merlinm View Post
    I've just quickly read the comments here, and noticed a lot of arguments revolve around "how realistic" the game "metadata" should be. I see both map & instinct as metadata features.

    My personal opinion is that "how realistic" is simply not part of the equation. Un-realistic "things" are found all over the place in video games, even in previous Hitman games.

    Plus, a lot of seemingly "unrealistic" game mechanisms are found in some of the most successful and fun games out there. E.g. boss fights in Metal Gear series are known to use very simple mechanics. Bosses move in an initial pattern, which you have to become familiar, then when their HP goes down they change into a more complex pattern, you need to familiarise again! Now... this is extremely unrealistic, but also very fun! I don't put stock in "realisticness" in video games. I put stock in "fun mechanics"

    So in line with that, what concerns me is: what makes Hitman an engaging & unique experience? To me, the answer is: "WHEN I HAVE TO USE MY BRAIN TO SOLVE MISSIONS"

    If I am given exclamation mark on the map, denoting something special about say "the left-top corner of a room". Then I need to explore that "corner of the room". Even if I get to that room, I might still have to scratch my head and have a play around. This is FUN.

    If I use my x-man goggles and see exactly that it is the drink that's on the table that I need to poison, then, I don't need to explore anymore. I know exactly where to do what. This is NOT FUN to me at least.

    An even MORE FUN way of giving hints, is to perhaps highlight an entire room, instead of locating with an exclamation mark. This way I have to enter the room and explore it fully. USE MY BRAIN, try different things and come to my own conclusions.

    Perhaps this is the "unique niche" which Hitman occupies: "the game which lets players get lost and find their own way and get a sense of accomplishment". So I would suggest to the devs at IO to promote this kind of gameplay regardless of whether it's instincts or maps or whatever. Simple create a mechanic which promote: exploration, getting lost, going back and forth, scratching your head, solving puzzles, finding distant correlations, etc.
    Thank you for this. As you have probably seen already, I get incredibly annoyed when the "realistic" aspect gets brought up when talking about videogames. If this seemingly "unrealistic" addition vastly improves game mechanics, then it should be included.

    And thank you for pointing out that the exclamation mark on the map is not the same thing as highlighting an item in Instinct. When you first start out a level in the old school games and look at the map, you don't know if the exclamation marks signify AMMO or an assassination tactic. They were only there to give you a heads-up as you would likely miss them.

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    290

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Shephard View Post
    Thank you for this. As you have probably seen already, I get incredibly annoyed when the "realistic" aspect gets brought up when talking about videogames. If this seemingly "unrealistic" addition vastly improves game mechanics, then it should be included.

    And thank you for pointing out that the exclamation mark on the map is not the same thing as highlighting an item in Instinct. When you first start out a level in the old school games and look at the map, you don't know if the exclamation marks signify AMMO or an assassination tactic. They were only there to give you a heads-up as you would likely miss them.
    I found myself moving straight towards these exclamation marks and advancing through the level with them, rather than exploring. In flatline for example, from the very start I knew that I could kill a patient and dump his body, or steal a man's referral or where the security office was, with only 1 guard inside. After I disguised myself as security the map told me where my next point of advancement was, the looney ward. It was almost linear. After a while the game was still fun but a lot of the challenge was gone.
    Last edited by S3R6i0; 02-23-2014 at 11:19 AM.

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    290

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by merlinm View Post
    So in line with that, what concerns me is: what makes Hitman an engaging & unique experience? To me, the answer is: "WHEN I HAVE TO USE MY BRAIN TO SOLVE MISSIONS"
    If I am given exclamation mark on the map, denoting something special about say "the left-top corner of a room". Then I need to explore that "corner of the room". Even if I get to that room, I might still have to scratch my head and have a play around. This is FUN.
    If I use my x-man goggles and see exactly that it is the drink that's on the table that I need to poison, then, I don't need to explore anymore. I know exactly where to do what. This is NOT FUN to me at least.
    An even MORE FUN way of giving hints, is to perhaps highlight an entire room, instead of locating with an exclamation mark. This way I have to enter the room and explore it fully. USE MY BRAIN, try different things and come to my own conclusions.
    Okay, in Blood Money, the level A New Life, for example, Sticky the Clown's van is outside. An exclamation mark would call you there, from there you have to put 2 and 2 together; kid's party, a clown, there's a box to hide a body: obviously I'll stand here and wait for a clown to arrive. With the X-Ray vision, you have to walk to van and hold down the button first before the van or the coffin are highlighted for you. From there, you're right back to point B, having to reason a solution. It really isn't much different. Also, the exclamation mark didn't give you a vague idea of where the item was, it was pin point accurate. Instinct adds a little more challenge because you have to explore the world, rather then being told "Go to point A. Once you get to point A you'll be that much closer to point B", it's almost linear.

    I agree with what you said about highlighting full rooms. Although, because of items that may be outside, a GTA V style mini-map where the location is marked by a large colored circle to give a vague idea of where it is, would be much better. Only when you're near it. Maybe there could be multiple items in the same spot, to throw the player off, so you have to explore all possibilities.

    To put things in perspective, let's talk about a game like Resident Evil (early RE), arguably one of the best puzzle formats, and there were no exclamation marks and all the items were highlighted with a shiny dot. Say you found a blood pack early in the level, and you had no idea what it was for until later on when you encountered a blood sucking leech monster. The blood pack provided a diversion for you to escape. Now, as a twist, what if later on you encounter 3 of these monsters and now you have to battle them all because you spent your only blood pack? So, rather then fighting 3 you figure out a way to defeat the first guy. After evading him for a while you realize there are gallons of fuel you can knock over and shoot. That's problem solving, without all the exclamation marks.

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Stasis
    Posts
    680

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S3R6i0 View Post
    I found myself moving straight towards these exclamation marks and advancing through the level with them, rather than exploring. In flatline for example, from the very start I knew that I could kill a patient and dump his body, or steal a man's referral or where the security office was, with only 1 guard inside. After I disguised myself as security the map told me where my next point of advancement was, the looney ward. After a while the game was still fun but a lot of the challenge was gone.
    That's just one level, and to add, it's more of a straightforward level because there are only 2 ways (I know there are 2 ways out, but I don't know if there is only 1 or 2 ways in) into the psycho ward.

    The map is there as a reference. It doesn't "tell you" to go anywhere, it simply states where your objective (in this case, the guy in the cell) is because it is easy to get lost in the facility. And the exclamation marks do not tell you what is in the room, it only says that it is a place of interest. Note that not all of the assassination techniques are marked on the map (something Absolution did).

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Stasis
    Posts
    680

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S3R6i0 View Post
    Okay, in Blood Money, the level A New Life, for example, Sticky the Clown's van is outside. An exclamation mark would call you there, from there you have to put 2 and 2 together; kid's party, a clown, there's a box to hide a body: obviously I'll stand here and wait for a clown to arrive. With the X-Ray vision, you have to walk to van and hold down the button first before the van or the coffin are highlighted for you. From there, you're right back to point B, having to reason a solution. It really isn't much different. Also, the exclamation mark didn't give you a vague idea of where the item was, it was pin point accurate. Instinct adds a little more challenge because you have to explore the world, rather then being told "Go to point A. Once you get to point A you'll be that much closer to point B", it's almost linear.

    I agree with what you said about highlighting full rooms. Although, because of items that may be outside, a GTA V style mini-map where the location is marked by a large colored circle to give a vague idea of where it is, would be much better. Only when you're near it. Maybe there could be multiple items in the same spot, to throw the player off, so you have to explore all possibilities.
    Again, you bring up Blood Money. That game featured many small levels similar to Absolution. Your argument only holds for small levels. You neglect to see the points that downplay your argument as well. I can use Instinct all the while I'm walking towards the highlighted marker, something you can't do with the map. Seriously, stop bringing up Blood Money and replay Hitman 2/ get your hands on Hitman 1. Those are representative of what levels/the map should be.

    One more thing, the exclamation point was only accurate when outdoors but inside it wasn't. At least that's what I remember (I know for a fact that this was the case for Hitman 2).

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    290

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Shephard View Post
    That's just one level, and to add, it's more of a straightforward level because there are only 2 ways (I know there are 2 ways out, but I don't know if there is only 1 or 2 ways in) into the psycho ward.

    The map is there as a reference. It doesn't "tell you" to go anywhere, it simply states where your objective (in this case, the guy in the cell) is because it is easy to get lost in the facility. And the exclamation marks do not tell you what is in the room, it only says that it is a place of interest. Note that not all of the assassination techniques are marked on the map (something Absolution did).
    In Flatline, there 4 ways to get inside the hospital. 3 of those ways are marked with exclamation points. WTF? Challenge is provided by the structure and design of the level, so having exclamation points doesn't offer any advantages.

    Another example from Blood Money, the Las Vegas mission A House of Cards, quite possibly the most complex level in the game and one of my favorites. In order to lure the professor out his suite, there is a fire alarm around the corner. When you trigger it, everyone, including the professor and his bodyguards run out of the room. Here, you can either enter his room or shoot him in the hallway. There was no exclamation point for the fire alarm. The overview map was completely useless. The alarm was triggered by using your head. You could very well have walked by the alarm and missed it. The overview map and the points of interest are not needed. You can also make the argument that the X-Ray vision isn't needed also. But when you compare the two, the X-Ray vision adds a little more challenge because you have to explore. What if only some items were highlighted and not others. What if nothing was highlighted. Then you have to be more indiscriminate about what you interact with. Same goes for the exclamation marks. It's the same thing. lol! The X-Ray is more useful and more challenging because it could be used as a sound monitor, it could be used to identify NPC's that have seen you in another disguise, and it could highlight hints. And it doesn't display everything for a mile, only around your immediate vicinity. I think when people are reminded of the X-Ray vision they mix it up with everything that was wrong about Absolution.
    Last edited by S3R6i0; 02-23-2014 at 01:18 PM.

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    290

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Shephard View Post
    I can use Instinct all the while I'm walking towards the highlighted marker, something you can't do with the map.
    What if you were forced to stand still?

    Seriously, stop bringing up Blood Money and replay Hitman 2/ get your hands on Hitman 1. Those are representative of what levels/the map should be.
    The reason I bring up Blood Money is because all I hear is "MAKE BLOOD MONEY 2". You'd be the first person I've heard say that Blood Money's gameplay is worse than earlier Hitman games.

  9. #59
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Stasis
    Posts
    680

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S3R6i0 View Post
    In Flatline, there 4 ways to get inside the hospital. 3 of those ways are marked with exclamation points. WTF? Challenge is provided by the structure and design of the level, so having exclamation points doesn't offer any advantages.
    When I said "psycho ward", I meant the place with all of the orderlies.

    Quote Originally Posted by S3R6i0 View Post
    Another example from Blood Money, the Las Vegas mission A House of Cards, quite possibly the most complex level in the game and one of my favorites. In order to lure the professor out his suite, there is a fire alarm around the corner. When you trigger it, everyone, including the professor and his bodyguards run out of the room. Here, you can either enter his room and shoot him in the hallway. There was no exclamation point for the fire alarm. The overview map was completely useless. The alarm was triggered by using your head. You could very well have walked by the alarm and missed it.
    Which is my point exactly! The map should NOT point everything out for you! A few unique approaches would be nice but the game SHOULDN'T give you all the answers! In the same vein, I think it would be helpful for them to point out where hidden ammo stashes are (like in "An Invitation to a Party" in which guns and ammo were hidden behind a dumpster in an obscure place).


    Quote Originally Posted by S3R6i0 View Post
    The overview map and the points of interest are not needed. You can also make the argument that the X-Ray vision isn't needed also. But when you compare the two, the X-Ray vision adds a little more challenge because you have to explore.
    Oh really? Walking towards a pulsating circle counts as exploring now?

    Before I continue, play "Tubeway Torpedo" from Hitman 2. Tell me if the level would have been harder if you had Instinct. Spoiler alert: the answer is no, the level would have been immensely easier! Why? Oh! It's the fact that while you are "looking for the next exclamation point" (which isn't how you are supposed to play the game BTW), your defenseless and will most likely get caught.

    The problem with BM is that there are not enough consequences for acting like a complete dip or walking in circles. That's why you can easily play the game going from point-of-interest to point-of-interest.

  10. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Stasis
    Posts
    680

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S3R6i0 View Post
    What if you were forced to stand still?
    That would change things immensely! But at that point, the depth perception would be screwed up and the map would be better.



    Quote Originally Posted by S3R6i0 View Post
    The reason I bring up Blood Money is because all I hear is "MAKE BLOOD MONEY 2". You'd be the first person I've heard say that Blood Money's gameplay is worse than earlier Hitman games.
    Actually, from what I've seen on these forums, you have been the only person to explicitly say "remake Blood Money". The gameplay of Blood Money is better than the other games (I never said it wasn't). But the game isn't perfect in every way. For one, I, as many others have said, think that Hitman 2 has a better soundtrack. The levels are also a bit bigger in Hitman 2 and the game is overall more challenging. The challenging part is opinion based I suppose but I think everyone agrees that you can get away with more in BM than in SA.

  11. #61
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    290

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Shephard View Post
    Oh really? Walking towards a pulsating circle counts as exploring now?
    Consider the alternative, running towards an exclamation mark. Anyway, I meant something that would start to glow when you got near it, not 3 or 5 glowing spots on the map at the beginning of the level.

  12. #62
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Stasis
    Posts
    680

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S3R6i0 View Post
    Consider the alternative, running towards an exclamation mark. Anyway, I meant something that would start to glow when you got near it, not 3 or 5 glowing spots on the map at the beginning of the level.
    Except that you are defenseless every time you check the map to see if you are going the right way, which makes all the difference. Also, you don't know where the enemies are since the last time you checked the map which, again, adds to the challenge.

  13. #63
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    290

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Shephard View Post
    Except that you are defenseless every time you check the map to see if you are going the right way, which makes all the difference. Also, you don't know where the enemies are since the last time you checked the map which, again, adds to the challenge.
    I wasn't really serious about the glowing circles, but you could very well be spotted as long as the NPC is far away.

  14. #64
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    4

    Default

    I'm almost done with my first playthrough of Hitman: Absolution, and I'm puzzled by the complaints over waypoint markers, highlighted enemies, and seeing through walls. AFAIK, you can turn these things OFF in the options menu. I'm playing on Expert difficulty, and all Instinct Mode does is turn the screen blue, reset detection, mark VIP targets, and allow you to go into Point Shooting mode.

    Here is what I would change about Instinct Mode on Expert difficulty (or whichever best difficulty level) for Hitman 6:

    1) Don't turn the screen blue. Use a more subtle effect like increasing color saturation. Or at least use a lighter earth tone if you need to tint the screen.

    2) Instinct Mode should show enemy info, including highlights and enemy outlines through walls at a certain distance, instead of using radar. If radar isn't "cheating", I don't know what is. More importantly, I would rather not spend time glancing (and sometimes staring) at a little diagram in the corner of the screen. You might also limit detection indicators to Instinct Mode, maybe allowing Instinct regeneration on higher difficulty levels. Obviously, players shouldn't be able to clear the map with Point Shooting on any difficulty level. Also give a little more leeway on enemy detection while in disguise. With no checkpoints and larger sandbox levels, the difficulty of executing stealth/disguises in Absolution would be a bit too high. With that in mind, there needs to a mode/option that turns off quicksaves, and make that mode available for the first playthrough of the game.

    3) Make Point Shooting simpler and quicker to use than in Absolution. I'm playing on keyboard and mouse, and it's a little clumsy to use on the fly. Granted, I haven't really needed to do this in Absolution, but that's one more
    thing I would like to see changed in the level design of Hitman 6.

    4) If objects you can interact with aren't already obvious, then highlight them with instinct. This includes tools, hiding places, ledges, doors windows, obstacles that can be vaulted, etc. The point is to make it easier to make quick decisions from the start (without having to hover next to every object to see if you can do something with it)

    Basically, I'd like the mechanics to be balanced so that small actions aren't as tricky to execute and there is a bit less reliance on trial-and-error on the tactical level, but where the player will need to stay on the move in some spots, be a bit more aware of his surroundings (hiding places, safe spots, escape routes, etc.), and more often improvise as he goes along. This is in addition to whatever strategic thinking is needed to clear the levels. It would essentially be a game with levels smoother and a bit easier than large sandbox versions of Absolution levels, which I imagine would be extremely difficult. And I'd also like to play some intense action segments where 47 needs to constantly be on the move, alternating between evasion and aggression while employing a wide range of his skills. Kill to Evade, Evade to Kill .

    By the way, Absolution has been great so far, and the disguise/detection mechanics have been for the most part, superbly balanced. I don't get why people call the disguise system broken. It works very well for this game.
    Last edited by GEXL47; 03-22-2014 at 04:38 PM.

  15. #65
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    290

    Default

    @GEXL47

    My main problem with Absolution is the core gameplay; narrow, linear levels where the focus is on evading the law instead of being a Hitman. 47 is basically off duty and it's an entirely different game. But I think a lot of Absolution's gameplay is discriminated against because it's tied with Absolution. The disguise system. The Instinct. The tinting of the screen, IMO, represents 47 going into focus mode, that's why the color changes. The highlighted NPC's represents 47's hearing, being able to hear footsteps nearby in another room. People tend to forget that there's a soundtrack in Hitman levels, which is why enemies are highlighted. The reason why enemies are highlighted, for the same reason there's a radar map in the previous games, is because 47 is supposed to be a super human, silent assassin, so having that awareness allows you to be more bad-ass, for lack of a better term. I just think that with a system like Instinct, the difficulty needs to be more balanced out so that you're not overpowering your enemies. The enemy AI has to be overhauled because now, 47's moves are more fluid and aesthetic. In the old Hitman, if you are clumsy while using the fiberwire on someone, the move might fail. In Absolution, the chance for failing the garrote is gone, therefore it should be balanced out by making the enemies more shaky and aware, requiring techniques like calling a phone or breaking electrical boxes so the enemy has to give it attention, and, yes, making the disguise system more realistic so that more NPC's recognize you. To tell the truth, I barely used the "hiding" technique in Absolution, which is probably why I didn't enjoy the disguise system. I don't know if it was just lack of forethought on my part or just poor level design, but Absolution's disguise system wasn't completely broken. Maybe it just needed better implementation.

    I once suggested that 47 should be stationary while using Instinct to detect NPC's, because holding down the button while moving around the entire level is a little cheap. The overview map from the old Hitman worked the same way, except you had no vision. Basically, if 47's movement is going to follow Absolution's rule, he needs to be more restricted so that he's not just coasting along unchallenged. I think a lot of the gameplay in Absolution gets a bad rap simply because of association. Let's be honest, the assassination levels in Absolution, like King of Chinatown and Shaving Lenny were actually decent levels that required you to use your head and were good examples of how the disguise system would work. But these were 2 levels out of 20 that were just badly designed and unorthodox, so it's easy to see how everything about Absolution gets caught in the whirlwind.

    I was playing the new Metal Gear Solid V recently, and I have to say, moving stealthily through the levels without some form of awareness system is impossible. MGSV requires you tag an enemy before he shows up on radar. I can't tell you how many times I was caught off guard because there really isn't a way to peek around some corners and the enemies don't make a sound once they're a certain distance from you. That's why some form of radar is needed for a Hitman game.

    There are some things about Instinct that need to be removed, such as the fire trail that displays where an enemy is going. WTF is that about? 47 is psychic now. No, that needs to go. The checkpoint system, the way enemies that you've killed respawned left a bad taste in my mouth and I would gladly go back to manual saves. The manual saves from old Hitman allowed you to be more creative and they are removed in the professional difficulty. Absolution had checkpoints because the levels were linear. I can't imagine checkpoints working in a sandbox level.

    Just one more thing, bring back the slow death from the fiber wire. Strangling someone in Absolution was way too easy, they were out in less than a second. There needs to be a struggle so 47 is more vulnerable. Snapping a neck should be harder, too.

  16. #66
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S3R6i0 View Post
    The tinting of the screen, IMO, represents 47 going into focus mode, that's why the color changes.
    You can still have a transition effect for going in and out of Instinct Mode if something like a lighter tint or increase in color saturation are not obvious enough for you. A more subtle effect would be better style, especially if the graphics in Hitman 6 are even better than in Absolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by S3R6i0 View Post
    To tell the truth, I barely used the "hiding" technique in Absolution, which is probably why I didn't enjoy the disguise system. I don't know if it was just lack of forethought on my part or just poor level design, but Absolution's disguise system wasn't completely broken.
    As far as I can tell, it would be impossible or at least extremely tricky to beat Absolution on Expert difficulty without hiding. Instinct doesn't regenerate and it drains pretty rapidly, so you can't rely on it to get past more than 1 or 2 obstacles per area. Playing Absolution on Expert reminded me a lot of the MGS games, and I think people might be ruining the game for themselves by playing it on lower difficulty settings. I haven't played any of the older Hitman games, except a few levels of the Codename 47 many many years ago, but going by what I've read, Absolution is different enough from past Hitman games that it might even be considered a different genre.

    Quote Originally Posted by S3R6i0 View Post
    Let's be honest, the assassination levels in Absolution, like King of Chinatown and Shaving Lenny were actually decent levels that required you to use your head and were good examples of how the disguise system would work.
    Shaving Lenny was also one of my favorites, especially the first part in the larger area. But it wasn't because I had to "use my head" any more than the other parts; it was because I was able to wing it on my objectives without studying enemy movement patterns too much, hitting targets when I saw an opening, and getting away with quick impromptu killings when I got spotted (due to the level layout). I liked King of Chinatown as well, and I imagine the majority of the levels in past Hitman games were more like these. I'll have to play Blood Money at some point.

    Quote Originally Posted by S3R6i0 View Post
    Basically, if 47's movement is going to follow Absolution's rule, he needs to be more restricted so that he's not just coasting along unchallenged.
    I never felt like I was just coasting along in Absolution. Are you saying that you would rather have a game with harder "movements" where you can otherwise coast along unchallenged, or the reverse? It's probably a given that Hitman 6 will have larger sandbox puzzles, but I'd still want to have elements of the smaller Absolution-style stealth puzzles in the mix.

    Quote Originally Posted by S3R6i0 View Post
    I was playing the new Metal Gear Solid V recently, and I have to say, moving stealthily through the levels without some form of awareness system is impossible... That's why some form of radar is needed for a Hitman game.
    Yes, Hitman 6 should probably have a radar. I want to know what's going on under pressure, and I don't want any guards sneaking up on me! Though I'd prefer having to look at the radar (much) less often, and I would want the info on the radar to be limited to a certain range, not have every single enemy in the level to show up on it.
    *
    If it's feasible, a great idea would be to have a "3D(!) radar" centered at the bottom of the screen. It would give all the information on the screen, and it would rotate with the camera (though not necessarily tilt with the camera). This would be smoother and more intuitive than 2D radar, because you wouldn't have to mentally shift your orientation nearly as much to read it. A major advancement in immersion!
    *

    Quote Originally Posted by S3R6i0 View Post
    The checkpoint system, the way enemies that you've killed respawned left a bad taste in my mouth and I would gladly go back to manual saves. The manual saves from old Hitman allowed you to be more creative and they are removed in the professional difficulty. Absolution had checkpoints because the levels were linear. I can't imagine checkpoints working in a sandbox level.
    Absolution has no checkpoints in Expert Difficulty, which is the main reason I chose Expert. Like I said before, I would like to rely a little less on trial-and-error on the tactical level. I don't mind having to experiment and restart levels sometimes to figure things out. I even like doing this (even most of Absolution has been like this). But I also, like everyone else, want to play a game where you walk through obstacles like a Hitman, like using tricks to create "openings" where you can evade, stealth, and shoot you're way to your goals, going off the cuff while continually reading the situation.

  17. #67
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    290

    Default

    Hmm... I think the reason why you enjoyed Absolution so much is because you didn't play the old Hitman games. Definitely check out the HD trilogy, or Blood Money at the very least.

    No. I prefer the easier way of 47 performing basic moves. It's just that in old Hitman, there was a sense of tension that was lost in Absolution because everything was more complex. Kind of like how you think about old Resident Evil. There was a tension that is gone because his moves have been simplified. That's why I said they should make things more challenging but from a different direction, such as making the victim struggle while being strangled and making enemies harder to sneak up behind. You should really check out Blood Money. You'll see what I mean.

    Checkpoints. In Blood Money, in the normal difficulty you get 7 saves. You can save the game anytime you want. The point behind this is if you die or restart late in the level you don't have to start all over again from the beginning, rekill here and redisguise there. It's unnecessary. But you can play without saving at all. It's up to you. The game isn't really that challenging. Some people are more methodical and like trying different approaches without restarting the level over and over. I found some more satisfying approaches this way. Part of the reason people hated Absolution's checkpoints is because enemies that you've already killed respawn again. So while your advancement in the level is the same, you have to kill all those people all over again, from a different vantage point. It's terrible. Even it was functional a system like that wouldn't work in a sandbox level.

  18. #68
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1

    Default

    Get rid of instinct, seeing through walls was stupid, all the instinct abilities were pretty much useless, the old bm method worked fine. What caused absolution to be rubbish was implementing these new half assed ideas. Give us hitman but a new story, new contracts and better graphics and you will have a happy fanbase.

  19. #69
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    290

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodflames View Post
    Get rid of instinct, seeing through walls was stupid, all the instinct abilities were pretty much useless, the old bm method worked fine. What caused absolution to be rubbish was implementing these new half assed ideas. Give us hitman but a new story, new contracts and better graphics and you will have a happy fanbase.
    Seeing through walls is stupid? Okay, there are games like The Last of Us and Assassins Creed that use the same feature. As a matter of fact, old school Hitman you couldn't see through walls but you had the overview map which let you see enemies on different floors in different buildings. Please explain the difference.

  20. #70
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Stasis
    Posts
    680

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S3R6i0 View Post
    Seeing through walls is stupid? Okay, there are games like The Last of Us and Assassins Creed that use the same feature. As a matter of fact, old school Hitman you couldn't see through walls but you had the overview map which let you see enemies on different floors in different buildings. Please explain the difference.
    1) Assassin's Creed is crap. Don't ever bring that series into a discussion (unless you're talking about the first 3). This isn't only my opinion, it's the general consensus.

    2) Just because another series has had a similar feature doesn't make it alright for every genre.

    3) I don't want to extend this thread again by telling you the difference between the map and seeing through walls. If you want the answer, look at the previous pages. Too lazy to read? Instinct makes the game play like Splinter Cell. The map requires strategy. There is no incentive to use disguises if the option to avoid people altogether is present (like Absolution).

    4) For someone who touts about Blood Money being the best in the series and how Hitman 6 should be Blood Money 2, you sure seem open to the idea of changing a key mechanic of the series. Letting the player see through walls COMPLETELY changes the dynamic of the game.

  21. #71
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    111

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Shephard View Post
    1) Assassin's Creed is crap. Don't ever bring that series into a discussion (unless you're talking about the first 3). This isn't only my opinion, it's the general consensus.

    2) Just because another series has had a similar feature doesn't make it alright for every genre.

    3) I don't want to extend this thread again by telling you the difference between the map and seeing through walls. If you want the answer, look at the previous pages. Too lazy to read? Instinct makes the game play like Splinter Cell. The map requires strategy. There is no incentive to use disguises if the option to avoid people altogether is present (like Absolution).

    4) For someone who touts about Blood Money being the best in the series and how Hitman 6 should be Blood Money 2, you sure seem open to the idea of changing a key mechanic of the series. Letting the player see through walls COMPLETELY changes the dynamic of the game.
    Well said. I hope they remove the instinct system and go back to the previous games map system.
    There's a bullet for everyone.. And a time.. And a place..

  22. #72
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    290

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Shephard View Post
    1) Assassin's Creed is crap. Don't ever bring that series into a discussion (unless you're talking about the first 3). This isn't only my opinion, it's the general consensus.

    2) Just because another series has had a similar feature doesn't make it alright for every genre.

    3) I don't want to extend this thread again by telling you the difference between the map and seeing through walls. If you want the answer, look at the previous pages. Too lazy to read? Instinct makes the game play like Splinter Cell. The map requires strategy. There is no incentive to use disguises if the option to avoid people altogether is present (like Absolution).

    4) For someone who touts about Blood Money being the best in the series and how Hitman 6 should be Blood Money 2, you sure seem open to the idea of changing a key mechanic of the series. Letting the player see through walls COMPLETELY changes the dynamic of the game.
    So unless I'm talking about the first 3 Assassins Creed games it's okay? Jesus!

    Secondly, I never said I wanted Blood Money 2. For someone who objects to Blood Money 2 you sure seem anxious to stick to the same formula. Also, I made it clear on this thread that I was talking only about Instinct in regards to scanning for NPC's, not the disguises. Maybe you should go back and read.

    There is no difference between "seeing through walls" and having a mile-radius psychic ability, except that the overview map forced you to remain still, in which case they can force the player to stand still while using Instinct.

  23. #73
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Stasis
    Posts
    680

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S3R6i0 View Post
    So unless I'm talking about the first 3 Assassins Creed games it's okay? Jesus!

    Secondly, I never said I wanted Blood Money 2. For someone who objects to Blood Money 2 you sure seem anxious to stick to the same formula. Also, I made it clear on this thread that I was talking only about Instinct in regards to scanning for NPC's, not the disguises. Maybe you should go back and read.

    There is no difference between "seeing through walls" and having a mile-radius psychic ability, except that the overview map forced you to remain still, in which case they can force the player to stand still while using Instinct.
    AC has no place in this forum, even if you're talking about the first 3. The series is the COD of the 3rd person genre. Of course, not all COD games are bad. The first 4 were fine in my opinion (MW2 had the most addicting multiplayer).

    Anyway, I'm digressing.

    Yes, I'm wrong. You never explicitly said to make Blood Money 2; you only bring it up in every thread on this forum.

    And don't try to use my reasoning against myself. Yes, I am against a Blood Money 2 and it's because I feel like the other Hitman games (shocker, there are games other than BM) overall are better. I know people will disagree with me, but I feel like BM is overrated. Its gameplay was the only major improvement over its predecessors (graphics don't count). Contracts has a better atmosphere and Hitman 2 has better missions/soundtracks. I'm not saying BM is a bad game, I definitely enjoyed it more than HM: 1. Again, this is my opinion. But this doesn't matter because the point of the response wasn't about how I feel about a BM 2.

    Going back to my point: The "same formula" of using a map to strategically move through a level isn't unique to BM (which is why I said "shocker" in the previous paragraph, in case you are still wondering). It's something that worked and didn't need to be changed.

    In regards to the disguises thing I brought up: I don't know if I didn't explain myself clearly or if you just lack reading comprehension skills. Either way, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I said you don't need disguises if you have Instinct because you can play the game like Splinter Cell i.e. you can play the game without ever being spotted. Since you only understand in Blood Money analogies, there are levels in BM that are nearly impossible without using a disguise (same goes for other HM games). I didn't bring up the other aspect of Instinct that makes you "rub your head" when people are getting suspicious.

    Standing still isn't the only difference between map and Instinct. With the map, you can only see one level of a building at a time whereas Instinct allows you to see all guards on all levels. Instinct on higher difficulties needs to be refilled by completing objects/killing others which is totally against the Hitman formula. You can't see hallways and rooms with Instinct, only people and objects. Therefore you can't plan out your moves because you don't know where you are going in the first place! You only know where your objective is and where the obstacles are, making the game feel 2-dimensional. In Absolution, half the time I didn't know where I was going, I only knew that I had to avoid the glowing yellow people and sneak towards the glowing red person. For more practical purposes, a map is more useful on a larger level than Instinct. For more personal reasons, a map is harder to read than just seeing through walls so it takes longer to plan out my moves, leaving me vulnerable.

    One more thing, a map isn't a psychic ability. It's a map. Yes, it shows real time updates of where people are, but it's still a map. Unless 47 is secretly a bat, I don't see how Instinct is "realistic" (I only bring this up because you can't get over the fact that games use mechanics that don't 'make sense').
    Last edited by Adrian Shephard; 04-12-2014 at 12:28 PM.

  24. #74
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    290

    Default

    1) I never said AC was the greatest series in history and all games should be modeled after it. I also brought up Last of Us of which you seemed to have no issue with. It's just that, for the purposes of displaying enemies the system evolves with every new generation of hardware. Seeing through walls is the natural progression. Going to a map is less immersive for something that is supposed to simulate awareness.

    2) You said: "With the map, you can only see one level of a building at a time whereas Instinct allows you to see all guards on all levels." Way to twist the truth. The map displays all NPC's on the current floor. Instinct displays all NPC's in a spheric radius around 47, horizontal and vertically. 47 can sense somebody walking down a staircase down to his level (GOD FORBID), whereas with the map you have to fidget between 2 or 3 maps like a newspaper.

    3) You said: "Yes, I'm wrong. You never explicitly said to make Blood Money 2; you only bring it up in every thread on this forum." How's this, you want a Contracts sequel, I want a Blood Money sequel. We're even. Your logic is absurd. "And don't try to use my reasoning against myself." I'm only mirroring your argument because it was inaccurate and ironic.

    4) You said: "In Absolution, half the time I didn't know where I was going, I only knew that I had to avoid the glowing yellow people and sneak towards the glowing red person." Here you go again, talking in context of the disguise system when we're discussing the map. Imagine Absolution with Blood Money's disguise system, your statement is now irrelevant.

    5) You said: "You can't see hallways and rooms with Instinct, only people and objects. Therefore you can't plan out your moves because you don't know where you are going in the first place! You only know where your objective is and where the obstacles are, making the game feel 2-dimensional." Oh, really? I guessed you missed the target in Shaving Lenny where you had the option to electrocute him or push him into a pool of sulphuric acid and both accident points were at each end of his patrol. Or the option to kill the King of Chinatown by blowing up his car or disguising as his drug dealer and poisoning the dope. Oh, yeah, you couldn't plan anything in Absolution.

    6) Lastly, you couldn't be any more wrong or alone about Blood Money. Contracts had better atmosphere? After The Meat King Party the game was a deep depression wonderland. And Hitman 2 is dated as f^*$.
    Last edited by S3R6i0; 04-12-2014 at 01:26 PM.

  25. #75
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Stasis
    Posts
    680

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S3R6i0 View Post
    1) I never said AC was the greatest series in history and all games should be modeled after it. I also brought up Last of Us of which you seemed to have no issue with. It's just that, for the purposes of displaying enemies the system evolves with every new generation of hardware. Seeing through walls is the natural progression. Going to a map is less immersive for something that is supposed to simulate awareness.

    2) You said: "With the map, you can only see one level of a building at a time whereas Instinct allows you to see all guards on all levels." Way to twist the truth. The map displays all NPC's on the current floor. Instinct displays all NPC's in a spheric radius around 47, horizontal and vertically. 47 can sense somebody walking down a staircase down to his level (GOD FORBID), whereas with the map you have to fidget between 2 or 3 maps like a newspaper.

    3) You said: "Yes, I'm wrong. You never explicitly said to make Blood Money 2; you only bring it up in every thread on this forum." How's this, you want a Contracts sequel, I want a Blood Money sequel. We're even. Your logic is absurd. "And don't try to use my reasoning against myself." I'm only mirroring your argument because it was inaccurate and ironic.

    4) You said: "In Absolution, half the time I didn't know where I was going, I only knew that I had to avoid the glowing yellow people and sneak towards the glowing red person." Here you go again, talking in context of the disguise system when we're discussing the map. Imagine Absolution with Blood Money's disguise system, your statement is now irrelevant.

    5) You said: "You can't see hallways and rooms with Instinct, only people and objects. Therefore you can't plan out your moves because you don't know where you are going in the first place! You only know where your objective is and where the obstacles are, making the game feel 2-dimensional." Oh, really? I guessed you missed the target in Shaving Lenny where you had the option to electrocute him or push him into a pool of sulphuric acid and both accident points were at each end of his patrol. Or the option to kill the King of Chinatown by blowing up his car or disguising as his drug dealer and poisoning the dope. Oh, yeah, you couldn't plan anything in Absolution.

    6) Lastly, you couldn't be any more wrong or alone about Blood Money. Contracts had better atmosphere? After The Meat King Party the game was a deep depression wonderland. And Hitman 2 is dated as f^*$.
    Grow up.

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •