Women??

[Flame Snake]

This is my first post on this forum. So Greetings LOK fans!

I believe the reason why Kain hasn't got any female lieutenants is quite obvious. Female humans are physically weaker then male humans, therefore the Sarafan Knights were mostly males.

The best of the Sarafan Knights were the "Sarafan inquisitors". So these "Sarafan inquisitors" are the best combatants human-kind has to offer (And were the ones that Kain raised) so they were more likely to be males than females (Its possible for a mutated female, one with more muscles and a broader shoulders, to become a inquisitor but the likelihood of a mutated female that is physically capable of becoming an inquisitor, being born is very, very low).

Now why wasn't that an option in the poll (Which is closed....)?

[Count D]

Actually yeah, that's the reason why he didn't have female lieutenants: because Sarafan, being a medieval knight order, were sexist and didn't have any female members. As opposed to later Moebius' vampire hunter brigades, which were 60% female.

[Flame Snake]

I'm not sure if the Sarafan's were sexist. They did have a-few female members (Sorceresses in SR2).

[The Hylden]

Originally Posted by Flame Snake

Now why wasn't that an option in the poll (Which is closed....)?

This is a very old thread, started way back in 2003, so the poll's been closed and the thread dormant for years.

And yeah, both the Sarafan Order and Moebius' vampire hunters have females, and both factions exist within a "medieval" era. Nosgoth was perpetually in the medieval period, basically, until the BO2 renaissance, and before it on the timeline, the apocalyptical steel age of SR1.

[Inquisitor Lexy]

So far I still haven't seen any evidence that Kain himself is sexist, maybe if I run through all the dialogue of the BO games I might find something, but I'm doubting it...

As for the idea of women being auto-physically weaker than men is a constant bother, since in real medieval times young boys/teens would take part in combat training and in some cases be taken to actual combat - and most of those would be weaker than adult women. It was just the lot of men to fight, and women were either excluded from it or spared from it by custom (depending on your view). If an inferior male, like a boy, was considered fit for combat training or to be present on a battlefield, there's no reason a woman couldn't by this 'strength' argument's rationale. In reality, war was more of a 'men-only club'. The Sarafan were pretty progressive compared.

[Flame Snake]

Originally Posted by Inquisitor Lexy

If an inferior male, like a boy, was considered fit for combat training or to be present on a battlefield, there's no reason a woman couldn't by this 'strength' argument's rationale.

I agree however there is no evidence to show that the Sarafan were like that. The Sarafan knights mostly seem to be healthy adult males.

[Inquisitor Lexy]

Yes. But since the Sarafan actually do employ females, there is also no evidence to suggest females of Nosgoth were terribly weaker. I also don't technically recall the female warriors in SR2 or Def taking significantly less hits than the males to be killed either (esp. in Defiance).

It makes sense to assume if Nosgoth obeys parallel rules to real life that the 'elite' Sarafan were more likely to be men, but not impossible to be women if women fight among the Sarafan. There is more direct evidence in the game that supports the potential of female Inquisitors since they are there among the Sarafan, than that women would never be among the Sarafan elite.

Less women in combat might be down to other factors than just the "strength" argument. Why are there not so many women in the military now when it is actually more open to them than it's ever been? Probably things like sexism/prejudice against them that they would face might put them off, or that the military is traditionally a male-dominated area and social expectations might put them off, or that perhaps women might just not be as inclined toward scrapping as men? All things to consider besides strength

I actually think, even if Nosgoth is a discriminating place, that during the Sarafan crusade it might have been seen as a desperate battle for mankind's survival against a 'plague'. In that sense, anyone might have been free to join the cause.

[Flame Snake]

They employ females as sorceresses not armed warriors that rely on their physical capabilities (At-least I don't remember any armed female Sarafan knights). And these sorceresses were quite easy to take out. (Though I'm not 100% sure as its been awhile since I played SR2) But like sorceresses/sorcerers in any of the Legacy of Kain games, they were annoying if you didn't take them out first......

It is possible that the females, after the Sarafan era, had evolved and become stronger and faster (the weak ones being killed off by vampires, demons, werewolves and other beings and/or males desiring strong females and thereby increasing the chance of bringing up children without a bloody, messy end....).

Yeah I've considered all of those possibilities and alot more but its seems more likely that most females are just weaker then most males during the Sarafan era (Going on the evidence we have got).

Hope you understand that I'm not sexist towards women. I'm just trying to make the story more realistic, so that it's more believable. To much fantasy kills a story, you know.

BTW I never said they were "terribly weaker"! Stop putting words in my mouth you... Kitchen appliance!! Joking!

Don't hit me, I bite!

[Inquisitor Lexy]

"Terribly" : artistic writing on my part. Your wording implied that you're saying that the women are just hopelessly weak, period. As in, to compete with the men, they'd have to have evolved or mutated somehow. Honestly, women come in all shapes and sizes; some are rather tall and if they worked out, would be as capable as a guy. Women can develop muscles, you know. I know, because I used to swim and my biceps and shoulders are stronger than my boyfriend's, who doesn't.

If we're talking about Nosgoth's women in general, then I also included the Sarafan sorceresses in Def, which are harder to kill than the men. In SR2 they aren't, but then Moebius' crusader women are about as 'tough' as the men to kill.

[Flame Snake]

I believe the Sarafan Knights train alot to do what they're able to do. It seems like they do nothing other then live a life as a vampire hunter. So these aren't people that ain't healthy. Infact no-where near! These are (high likely) the best humanity has to offer.

Women not only have less muscles than men (You can grow your muscles but can't create new ones) but a different skeletal structure that isn't as well design for combat as men's are. Plus there is alot of other biological differences that make most males better combatants. That's why I stated that females had to evolve (mutating in the "right" direction) in order to compete with a male Sarafan knight.

Sarafan sorceresses in Defiance? You sure? Don't remember seeing them... They were replaced by sorcerers or "Inquisitors" as they are called in Defiance (according to the LOK wiki).

BTW So why do you think the Sarafan's don't have much female membes? You dare form an opinion like me?

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

Isn't it actually a scientific fact that women generally do have a harder time building up and retaining muscle than men though? I seem to remember that. Im not sure if it's because of testosterone or what though.

[The Hylden]

It's simply because men and women are built differently. Why that is sometimes balked at, as if it's a bad thing, is beyond me. I wouldn't want to be a women, and women shouldn't want to be men, and should be proud of their physical differences, in my humble opinion.

You're right that women aren't built to build muscle in the quantities that men are (and thank God for it! Who wants to date a She-Hulk, anyway? ). Their design also of wider hips and different centers of gravity make them less suited as warriors and such. That doesn't mean that women can't and certainly do, overcome that to be athletic and compete. However, by and large, of course they aren't going to be running around with bulky muscles and as combatants like the men are.


Also something to note, while we're on the topic of trying to make this more realistic... It' important to note that, just as in our own medieval past (hell, our past just a few centuries ago), humanity didn't have it so plush and good. You might think times are hard and such now in the world and day-to-day problems, but we're living it up pretty cushy and cozy, comparatively. We certainly have no measures against breeding to continue the race, either. This was a vastly different story back then, however, just as is exemplified in the games in harsh, everyday realities for the people like the vampire plague, battles with kingdom against kingdom, and -- even more literal -- the actual 'The Plague,' seen in Blood Omen 1 when Kain visits Corhagen. Life in Nosgoth would be hard, unsure, short, and possibly ending horribly. Any chance to procreate the species just to ensure it would not go under has to be coveted. Unlike now for us, this is also true back in medieval times, where plagues such as bubonic, hit humanity so hard and so swiftly, huge chunks of the population just disappeared. Estimates of 30-60% of Europe was wiped out during this time. Comprehend 25 million people dead in a few months (actually, that would be hundreds of million today…). And, if you're not dealing with plagues, you're dealing with disease from poor sanitation removal, venereal disease with no treatment; other ailments that we've both inoculated against now and which are easily treatable would absolutely have no means to be dealt with back then. Life was hard. life was short. Life was fleeting. Women, therefore, are like gold, and must be preserved. Most people are peasants and farmers just trying to survive another day, put food on the table, and maybe raise a family that can survive, not think about going off to die in battle.

I imagine that this thinking has to go into Nosgoth's time periods, too. While certainly women are breaking the mold more in these games than they are in our own past, species preservation has to always be considered part of the reasoning that fantasy games set in these pseudo-medieval times have less women warriors. Realistically, even in today's armies you're not going to find many women in combat across the world. Realize also just how exponentially hazardous it was back then to be a warrior. Fighting in armies, or as a mercenary, almost ensured your death at a young age (which was already a good chance to be pretty young of an age anyway, back then). That doesn't even mean dying in combat. It probably would be from malnutrition, disease, exposure, hypothermia, or a host of other bad ends...

[Inquisitor Lexy]

Originally Posted by Zulgbrtzchllha

Isn't it actually a scientific fact that women generally do have a harder time building up and retaining muscle than men though? I seem to remember that. Im not sure if it's because of testosterone or what though.

I have heard this, but apparently my own muscles haven't wasted much after not swimming for several years, and I find it very easy to build them up even with a little training. So I can't agree - actually being a woman, and not just guessing - that this is true. People are all different, despite the male and female 'templates' nature has created. My bf finds it hard to build muscle and I find it extremely easy. No doubt it's due to our own unique chemical balances and not the templates so much. On the whole I would say that he and I are rarer cases, though.

One thing that is true is that women athletes, at the peak of physical condition and with very little body fat, can actually find their bodies shutting down female functions, like periods, because the body is under 'stress' and supposedly realizes that periods are a waste of resources. So their bodies essentially begin to function more efficiently in that regard - all athletes are pushing themselves to the human limit, male and female. It's neat to see that the human body is quite so flexible and adaptable in that way. I just wanted to point out earlier that females, despite being generally smaller by default, are not stuck in 'weak mode' permanently necessarily. If you were a Sarafan, quote: "devoting your life solely to the annihilation of the vampire plague", I'd imagine even their women would have the opportunity to become quite fit/tough if all they do all day is train, fight and stake vampires to death. It makes sense that their strongest warriors would more than likely be men, but I wouldn't bet that their women would simply be puny in comparison.

[Flame Snake]

Nearly every human is different. This is due to mutations that happens to everyone even before birth. Those who are able to live with their mutations have kids with similar abilities. That's how evolution happens. I could build muscles much, much faster then anyone I know. This is partly to do with my ancestors actions they took in life or the mutations they had. And/or partly to do with my mutations and my actions.

The sexes are balancing out as we are in an age where it doesn't matter anymore who's strong and who's weak. We've got technology to help everyone do what they want to do. We've also got law to help us deal with crime. But I must add that women today are still weaker then men.

Anyway I think I made my point quite clear to understand (Well I tried....). Since there is no book on Nosgoth's history we can't know for sure why most of the females of Nosgoth didn't take up arms against a threat that would enslave all humans. But I thing me and The Hylden have come up with a realistic and believable explanation. And that explanation should answer the question of why Kain hasn't got female lieutenants .

[Dormarth]

Ok, I'm just going to blunder into this thread and sound of on my own thoughts about women in LoK. I think they're largely absent from the main character list (though a lot of it was written by a woman). I think if LoK were to have a reboot it wouldn't hurt from having a couple of prominent female roles here and there. Though I've no problem with the Sarafan/Vampire Lieutenents being all male, I think it's still conceivable that they could be all male even in a Nosgoth society that permits women into the Sarafan.

Also, I never really took to Umah (though I have problems with BO2 in general). I never really believed in her character and found her characterisation and development a bit off (though I found the Seer interesting, but I'm sure that's more to do with the mystery of her). Though I would have her back, but written better (and not killed off in a manner that would make a comic book writer cringe) as I think Kain could really do with a female lead/romantic interest.

[Guardian of Spirit]

Originally Posted by Dormarth

Though I would have her back, but written better (and not killed off in a manner that would make a comic book writer cringe) as I think Kain could really do with a female lead/romantic interest.

I think it's ok to see Kain with a patner... if it's the right woman, strong, independent, just like our hero, why not?

[Count D]

Guys, you forget it's Kain we're talking about. With his personality, he'd never hook up with a strong and independent woman. The guy's absolutely dominative, he wouldn't accept anybody as his equal, especially when he was younger and much more ambitious. He wanted all of Nosgoth to be at his feet, he wouldn't make an exception for anyone.

As for Umah's death - I think it was believable. As I said, he's pretty asocial, so he isn't used to have feelings like this and those feelings, being on a pretty early stage, actually fueled his anger towards her.

[ghostlion88]

Originally Posted by Zulgbrtzchllha

Isn't it actually a scientific fact that women generally do have a harder time building up and retaining muscle than men though?

Originally Posted by The Hylden

Who wants to date a She-Hulk, anyway? ).

Hmmm...I don't know...might be kind of fun or exciting. I mean as long as she was still formed like a woman and not incredibly thick or bulging. I've seen quite a few big boned or endomorphic ladies out there who still remind me of Athenas. She-hulk doesn't look so bad, does she?

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/phot...81-600-714.jpg

Originally Posted by The Hylden

Also something to note, while we're on the topic of trying to make this more realistic...

Is Legacy of Kain supposed to be more realistic? I always saw a Fairy-Tale sort of atmosphere to it. I play video games to ESCAPE reality altogether though.

Now that you mention it though, I guess in real life a she-hulk might not be such a nice presence o.O Depends I guess. I think it's possible for the Intelligent Designer(s) to pull off (if you believe in one...if not then the random development of biological evolution ^_^ )

Originally Posted by The Hylden

It' important to note that, just as in our own medieval past (hell, our past just a few centuries ago), humanity didn't have it so plush and good. You might think times are hard and such now in the world and day-to-day problems, but we're living it up pretty cushy and cozy, comparatively. We certainly have no measures against breeding to continue the race, either. This was a vastly different story back then, however, just as is exemplified in the games in harsh, everyday realities for the people like the vampire plague, battles with kingdom against kingdom, and -- even more literal -- the actual 'The Plague,' seen in Blood Omen 1 when Kain visits Corhagen. Life in Nosgoth would be hard, unsure, short, and possibly ending horribly. Any chance to procreate the species just to ensure it would not go under has to be coveted. Unlike now for us, this is also true back in medieval times, where plagues such as bubonic, hit humanity so hard and so swiftly, huge chunks of the population just disappeared. Estimates of 30-60% of Europe was wiped out during this time. Comprehend 25 million people dead in a few months (actually, that would be hundreds of million today…). And, if you're not dealing with plagues, you're dealing with disease from poor sanitation removal, venereal disease with no treatment; other ailments that we've both inoculated against now and which are easily treatable would absolutely have no means to be dealt with back then. Life was hard. life was short. Life was fleeting. Women, therefore, are like gold, and must be preserved. Most people are peasants and farmers just trying to survive another day, put food on the table, and maybe raise a family that can survive, not think about going off to die in battle.

Very good argument there, but you're forgetting one HUGE MAJOR MASSIVE distinction between Nosgoth and our world: The blatant existence of magic, glyph energy, sorcery and advanced metaphysical alchemy.

Magic in the fantasy realm can be just as luxurious, powerful and tenacious to the fabric of civilization as our own nuclear powerplants, solar-powered facilities and propane/electric/coal heated homes. --If not more.

I was actually always under the impression that physical strength had almost no status in the Legacy of Kain universe among warriors. It all depends on who has the greatest magic; who can summon the largest hottest balls of energy and fire at their opponents. In the first Blood Omen game Kain is a magical being collecting magical objects on his journey, and that is where his power comes from.

Sure, the physical strength part still applies to some of the generic mortals in their mortal world, but that is quite over-shadowed by the on-going episodes of creatures like Hylden, Vampires, Sorcerers, demons, gods, elves, etc etc. The real story of Nosgoth revolves around magic-users. No HUMAN could ever have a chance fighting against the incredible speed and strength of the vampires, so how did they persecute them? Mobieus permeated the use of intensive magic among his followers to immobilize the vampires. That's my assumption anyway. He had more tricks up his sleeve than just that one staff.

When magic is the only way to have an advantage, there can easily be just as many women with just as much power, and I don't think there is such a dire need in Nosgoth to keep breeders locked in rooms with yellow wallpaper to ensure that enough babies get pumped out to sustain the working population.

If anything I believe that with occasional exceptions, like the Plague in Blood Omen 1, Nosgoth would tend to assume more of a Malthusian stance, especially considering all the slums in Blood Omen 2, people complaining about inflation in the markets, and the fact that Nosgoth is a dying world with dwindling resources.

Originally Posted by Inquisitor Lexy

I have heard this, but apparently my own muscles haven't wasted much after not swimming for several years, and I find it very easy to build them up even with a little training. So I can't agree - actually being a woman, and not just guessing - that this is true. People are all different, despite the male and female 'templates' nature has created. My bf finds it hard to build muscle and I find it extremely easy. No doubt it's due to our own unique chemical balances and not the templates so much. On the whole I would say that he and I are rarer cases, though.

One thing that is true is that women athletes, at the peak of physical condition and with very little body fat, can actually find their bodies shutting down female functions, like periods, because the body is under 'stress' and supposedly realizes that periods are a waste of resources. So their bodies essentially begin to function more efficiently in that regard - all athletes are pushing themselves to the human limit, male and female. It's neat to see that the human body is quite so flexible and adaptable in that way. I just wanted to point out earlier that females, despite being generally smaller by default, are not stuck in 'weak mode' permanently necessarily. If you were a Sarafan, quote: "devoting your life solely to the annihilation of the vampire plague", I'd imagine even their women would have the opportunity to become quite fit/tough if all they do all day is train, fight and stake vampires to death. It makes sense that their strongest warriors would more than likely be men, but I wouldn't bet that their women would simply be puny in comparison.

Good example there. I happen to have a body type that can build muscles easily and retain them, but I have never really done so because (1) Nerves cause a lack of appetite, and (2) I spend all day everyday devoting my life to things not involving physical strength, reading, computer/art-related.

I'm not proud of it, I try to stay healthy, eat lots of greens, take a walk every other day, never eat junk food of any kind, but I never have the time to build up and I hate sports. :P

I worked in retail recently and had to move some large wooden platform that trucks unload stuff onto, and I was using all my effort and dragging it slowly, and a girl who was even thinner than me but taller offered to take it herself and I was surprised to see her almost effortlessly carry it quickly over to the spot. She had been working there much longer. If monsters attacked that supermarket we were working at she probably would have had better chance of fighting them off :P

Originally Posted by Flame Snake

The sexes are balancing out as we are in an age where it doesn't matter anymore who's strong and who's weak. We've got technology to help everyone do what they want to do. We've also got law to help us deal with crime. But I must add that women today are still weaker then men.

Again, technology and magic often overshadow physical strength. Scarecrows can carry shotguns, uzis and grenades. And withering old men like Mobieus or Gandalf can carry magic staffs, shoot lightning, control time and summon Baulrogs....and the Stay-Puft Marshmellow man.

Nosgoth is filled with spells and arcane energy. Physical strength is an advantage but will tend to be overpowered by the ingenuity of progressive design. Magic is often something which must be intensively studied and mastered, like technology.

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

That's something else I was thinking. Women might have more rights in Nosgoth because of the fact that the Pillars choose women to be Guardians. That right there would show that the Pillars don't consider women to be lesser than men, so that would affect society as well I'd say.

[Inquisitor Lexy]

Originally Posted by ghostlion88

Good example there. I happen to have a body type that can build muscles easily and retain them, but I have never really done so because (1) Nerves cause a lack of appetite, and (2) I spend all day everyday devoting my life to things not involving physical strength, reading, computer/art-related.

I'm not proud of it, I try to stay healthy, eat lots of greens, take a walk every other day, never eat junk food of any kind, but I never have the time to build up and I hate sports. :P

I worked in retail recently and had to move some large wooden platform that trucks unload stuff onto, and I was using all my effort and dragging it slowly, and a girl who was even thinner than me but taller offered to take it herself and I was surprised to see her almost effortlessly carry it quickly over to the spot. She had been working there much longer. If monsters attacked that supermarket we were working at she probably would have had better chance of fighting them off :P

Thanks.

I do personally think this general idea that women are weak by default and men are strong by default is just habit. Men are bigger than women, most of the time, yes... however a woman can become pretty "strong" if she wishes and works for it, just as a man isn't Superman or Adonis by default if he doesn't push himself to gain muscle and strength... but this "men are strong and women are weak!" idea prevails everywhere. It's hilarious to me anyway because as a kid I was always hearing this, and yet my best childhood friend who was a boy, who was always challenging me to little things like "how hard can you punch" and arm wrestles, always lost to me; and I have met men 'weaker' than me quite a few times - all shapes and sizes there are. I guess a lot of the time women don't build muscle because men expect them not to, and they want to 'fit in' with the expectations of men and other women, and men and women generally seem to want to differentiate themselves and avoid at all costs appearing like each other. I personally couldn't give a monkeys about that, I like to feel strong for my size and I like to lift my own heavy things. (I don't look like she-hulk, in case anyone's imagining I do... I simply have a decent upper body due to my swimming, and I like that fact that I do, and I like my muscles.)

In fact, as someone said earlier about how grotesque excessive muscles look on women - I think the same applies to men. Hardcore male bodybuilders look pretty nauseating, IMO... all those muscles on muscles and muscles where you didn't even think there were muscles, and enormous veins everywhere, ugh. They almost do not look human. A normal physique and proportions for men and women who are fit and healthy (and not on 'roids) is the best I believe.

[majinkura]

Originally Posted by Inquisitor Lexy

Hardcore male bodybuilders look pretty nauseating, IMO... all those muscles on muscles and muscles where you didn't even think there were muscles, and enormous veins everywhere, ugh. They almost do not look human.

pretty much this.
its so disgusting to look at, i mean remember AH-nold??
BLEH

[The Hylden]

Took me a couple of days to gear up for this long reply, but here goes

Originally Posted by ghostlion88

Is Legacy of Kain supposed to be more realistic? I always saw a Fairy-Tale sort of atmosphere to it. I play video games to ESCAPE reality altogether though.

I meant, of course, in its usage of medieval elements.

Now that you mention it though, I guess in real life a she-hulk might not be such a nice presence o.O

Not if she decides to "HULK SMASH!" you, no lol

Very good argument there, but you're forgetting one HUGE MAJOR MASSIVE distinction between Nosgoth and our world: The blatant existence of magic, glyph energy, sorcery and advanced metaphysical alchemy.

Magic in the fantasy realm can be just as luxurious, powerful and tenacious to the fabric of civilization as our own nuclear powerplants, solar-powered facilities and propane/electric/coal heated homes. --If not more.

I was actually always under the impression that physical strength had almost no status in the Legacy of Kain universe among warriors. It all depends on who has the greatest magic; who can summon the largest hottest balls of energy and fire at their opponents. In the first Blood Omen game Kain is a magical being collecting magical objects on his journey, and that is where his power comes from.

Sure, the physical strength part still applies to some of the generic mortals in their mortal world, but that is quite over-shadowed by the on-going episodes of creatures like Hylden, Vampires, Sorcerers, demons, gods, elves, etc etc. The real story of Nosgoth revolves around magic-users. No HUMAN could ever have a chance fighting against the incredible speed and strength of the vampires, so how did they persecute them? Mobieus permeated the use of intensive magic among his followers to immobilize the vampires. That's my assumption anyway. He had more tricks up his sleeve than just that one staff.

When magic is the only way to have an advantage, there can easily be just as many women with just as much power, and I don't think there is such a dire need in Nosgoth to keep breeders locked in rooms with yellow wallpaper to ensure that enough babies get pumped out to sustain the working population.

Well, you're making a few assumptions that are counter-argued by the games, themselves. First of all, you're seeing magic as something everyone has and only the best of the those having it are at the top, but that it's so prevalent it levels the physical playing field, or renders it obsolete in Nosgoth. This isn't shown to be the case. Magic users are actually far more scarce, especially in the ranks of the soldiers Raziel and Kain fights, than you're stating it. Yes, the top rulers of Nosgoth in the Guardians of the Pillars are highly-skilled sorcerers, but the Sarafan and vampire hunters, both of these in the games have squads you face of warriors, with only one, or two per unit, sorcerers/sorceresses. And these sorcerers/sorceresses never have weapons. Also, within BO1 and BO2, Kain didn't run across any sorcerers/sorceresses besides the Guardians, and Elzivar. The brogans, thieves, knights, soldiers -- all of these did not use any magic. In Defiance and also SR2, Raziel, or Kain faced vampire hunters and Sarafan soldiers, but all of the soldiers in each never used magic. As stated, a unit of Sarafan Knights would be aided by a sorcerer in Defiance, and a Sorceress in SR2. In SR2, those sorceresses just blasted you with their little fire balls (so annoying, lol), but relied on the physical prowess of the knights for the physical grunt-work battling. If you approached, they ran and screamed, "Guard me, brothers!" They had no weapons and therefore did not seem trained well to use one, or to battle physically with any creature, or probably human. In Defiance, the male sorcerers only blast Kain from afar, then use spells on the warriors to embolden their weapons and them in the battles. However, they again carry no weapons and seem to rely on the knights to do all of the legwork in attacking. The same thing for Defiance's vampire hunters. You may think the wiry male guys with the claw weapons on their hands are using magic, but the prima guide says that they actually lob little lit fire bombs, so it's a physical weapon, like a Molotov cocktail. The only ones using magic are the female sorcerers, who aid their comrades doing the fighting with the same manner of spells as their Sarafan ancestors. Both can user repel spells if Raziel gets close, shield themselves, and they lob fireballs from afar.

My point to all of that is to make a distinctions that the games have drawn from BO1 on that magic, while it exists, is not practiced by most people, or even most of the factions that fight for whatever cause. Good ol' fashioned physical warriors are needed still. This seems to suggest that, barring being a magical being that isn't human, and barring the Pillars of Nosgoth choosing one at birth, the magic guilds, or sorcerer guilds of Nosgoth are an exclusive club, where one has to train hard and those who become sorcerers and sorceresses able to wiled magic are rare (and needing to be preserved in battle by the warriors they're helping). It also suggests heavily by the nature of the human magic-wielders we meet, that to be one means almost forgoing any type of physical training, or not of the sort that would allow one of them to be cleared to use physical weapons, or to use martial art skills. This does not disprove my previous declaration that the laws of who are picked to be warriors -- usually the more physically strong and male of the populous -- still is in play here in jolly ol' Nosgoth. I bet dollars to doughnuts that it is, of course, still possible that there are women in the Sarafain who are knights, or squires, etc. And, even, that there might be sorcerers/sorceresses that can wield weaponry and whom are physically more adept, but we're not privy to it ever in the games.

Also, you can't really use the vampires, or the Hylden, as examples here. We're talking of the human race and what we see of them. Of course both the Hylden and vampires are magical beings, races that we also see by their murals employ females in their battles and in their raising through spell-casting of the Pillars, etc. They have little bearing on what's going on in humanity, however. Humanity isn't as magically adept, isn't as knowledgeable, that we're shown, and their numbers that use magic are far, far scarcer than these separate races -- both of which are either banished, or almost wiped out, in BO1, SR2, and Defiance. You have to look at what makes up the human society alone, where this is concerned. Even Kain, before he ever became a vampire, was, for all we ever know about him, an ex soldier from Willendorf, who still bears the knights' armor and who is handy with a sword. He's physically imposing, and he doesn't use magic. When he awakens as a vampire, he then has magic powers, given the nature of the curse. His soul, as SR1's Raz tells us, carries power with it now to wield magic, the gift manifests with different powers for each vampire, via what is stated in BO2, and Kain is the chosen of the Pillar of Balance, so he's got that already inherent within him, and which seems to manifest itself (if those artifacts he gets, as Amy Hennig seems to suggest with her explanation of the Heart of Darkness, are just ways to show what Kain has in his growing abilities over time) in Kain having various powers of all the rest of the Pillars, in addition to whatever he was latently reborn with. By the way, given he was born as a human as the replacement Balance Guardian, he would have innate nature to wield magic, but I presume that since he never knew that he was this successor, he never learned he had this ability. Given again that he doesn't use any spells to fend off his assassins in BO1's beginning, it seems he never learned any, and it goes to further suggest that to be a spell-caster of the human race in Nosgoth, one has to learn it and to develop it through some type of apprenticeship and dedication to someone else's teachings. And, that it probably takes up much of one's life to do so. Also, vampire and Hylden are, by their very nature, physically stinger than humans. And for vampires, they get physically stronger the longer they live. Raziel awoke from his torment int he abyss even stronger physically as little more than a bag of bones in his form, yet able to overturn many-ton obolisks and blocks, and almost, or just as, even with Kain by the time they fight in Defiance.

If anything I believe that with occasional exceptions, like the Plague in Blood Omen 1, Nosgoth would tend to assume more of a Malthusian stance, especially considering all the slums in Blood Omen 2, people complaining about inflation in the markets, and the fact that Nosgoth is a dying world with dwindling resources.

Again, the problem with this assumption is that you're going off of a Nosgoth in BO2 that is powered unnaturally by the reintroduction of the Hylden and their glyph magic. This magic brings Nosgoth suddenly into a renaissance/industrial revolution period, with the glyph power mimicking our own electricity. Now, suddenly, you have running hot water, electric-type lights, steam and glyph powered machinery, all of which brings Nosgoth out of the medieval setting that BO1 started it off in. You don't use our own industrial revolution era citizenry to dismiss realities that happened within our own earlier medieval period, and so you shouldn't use BO2's era to explain BO1's.

Originally Posted by Zulgbrtzchllha

That's something else I was thinking. Women might have more rights in Nosgoth because of the fact that the Pillars choose women to be Guardians. That right there would show that the Pillars don't consider women to be lesser than men, so that would affect society as well I'd say.

Indeed. Of note, we're mentioning the rights of human women in a human society. I'm sure by what's been shown that the vampires and the Hylden already have women and men on pretty much the same playing field.

Originally Posted by Inquisitor Lexy

(I don't look like she-hulk, in case anyone's imagining I do... I simply have a decent upper body due to my swimming, and I like that fact that I do, and I like my muscles.)

An athletic build on a woman most certainly is nothing to scoff at, nor is it hideous. It's usually quite sexy, actually. And to this:

In fact, as someone said earlier about how grotesque excessive muscles look on women - I think the same applies to men. Hardcore male bodybuilders look pretty nauseating, IMO... all those muscles on muscles and muscles where you didn't even think there were muscles, and enormous veins everywhere, ugh. They almost do not look human. A normal physique and proportions for men and women who are fit and healthy (and not on 'roids) is the best I believe.

Absolutely. My opinion also is that this extreme is too far. No man was ever meant to be roided out to where he can't even put his own arms down by his sides, and with zero body fat so that every muscle and vein underneath the skin is visible. The same thing for women. Strength and extreme bodybuilding also certainly aren't one and the same.



Of note: Kain is a powerhouse figure in his elder form. He's not grotesque bodybuilder level, but he his big, male superhero-type big And on him, that's just fine, lol

[majinkura]

Originally Posted by The Hylden

Of note: Kain is a powerhouse figure in his elder form. He's not grotesque bodybuilder level, but he his big, male superhero-type big And on him, that's just fine, lol

Oh I so agree on this - Kain has just the right amount of muscle mass without being too BEEFY...and i like how W. Raz has muscle all the while looking emaciated at the same time.

[Guardian of Spirit]

Originally Posted by majinkura

Oh I so agree on this - Kain has just the right amount of muscle mass without being too BEEFY...and i like how W. Raz has muscle all the while looking emaciated at the same time.

yep, strange thing that one... guess the water of the abyss burned away only soft tissues leaving the muscles untouched... guess that's because muscle tissue is tougher that the belly's or the throat's, etc.

[The Hylden]

Well, I surmised years ago that Raziel has his midsection burned away due to him screaming with his mouth open the entire decent into the Abyss. Water would have rushed down into his lungs and down his esophagus into his stomach. So, he not only burned from the outside, but from the inside, out. This is why his entire midsection has been disolved away. This also burned away his jaw from the outside and inside of his mouth.

You can only hypothesize a reason for so much, though. I mean, how his nose, ears, and hair are all still there, lol, is just chalked up to what Amy Hennig said (about the hair, at least): he'd look silly without it. Same thing goes for what little clothing he has, or what's been taken away. (Why, for instance, would his pants have melted off?)

I tend to think that he would not have looked silly, if done right, but the character is what he is now, and his look is certainly unique.