Games for Windows Live?

[Elliot Kane]

Steam as an OPTION I have no problems with. Steam as a COMPULSION is another no-buy from me.

I get my games on disk, and there is no reason whatsoever I should have to install any kind of client program or join any kind of 'service' I have neither use not desire for. End of.

Steam is NOT the best DRM. NO DRM is the best DRM. Failing that, disk checks (For those of us with disks) are perfectly acceptable. Internet activation, limited installs and any system whatsoever that relies on someone else's servers being up at any time is totally unacceptable in a single player offline game.

[Metalrocks]

totally agree. but so many companies think they do the right thing and that it protects their product.
the company who made "the witcher" games, said they will never use DRM because they said its useless and that people will hack it anyway. even when the witcher 2 got copied over 4.5 millions times, they still will not use any DRM.

yes, steam is not the best DRM, but the service valve provides, does work. besides, many games lately (especially indie games) are only available on steam because its cheaper for the provider to sell their product world wide then producing and sending retail versions all over the world.

it is a sad thing how games today always have DRM and make it more difficult for the honest buyer. but these days really lots of people have internet and thats what they refer too now.
but yes, having internet connection to play a SP game only is stupid but still doesnt stop me from playing half life, etc.

[Elliot Kane]

It doesn't protect their product at all though, Metal. I could see the case if it does. The only thing severely restrictive DRM does (Other than hurt legitimate gamers) is cripple the (Entirely legal) used game market, because it prevents resold games from working, as they are tied to the account of a specific player.

In other words it's not about protecting their product from pirates at all. NO form of DRM does that, including Ubi's always online thing. They have ALL been broken, without exception. Sometimes weeks before the game has even shipped.

To borrow your example, Witcher 2 shipped with a form of DRM on every platform except GOG at the insistence of their distribution partners. This was quickly patched out, but guess which version was actually pirated most? That with the DRM or that without? You got it, I'm sure. There are some seriously skilled crackers out there who pride themselves on their ability to crack games, and who take DRM as a challenge. And it's them who upload the pirate games.

So why would any business continue with a hugely expensive model that actively harms their legitimate customers, causes serious problems for their support team to have to work out and does nothing whatsoever to handle the problem it is supposed to be handing?

What kind of business deliberately sets out out make sure that people who steal from them have an easier and far better experience with their product than people who buy from them?

I'm not sure there's even an answer to those questions beyond 'bad ones'. The idea of an industry-wide conspiracy to bring down business rivals (IE the used game market) is more than a bit 'conspiracy theory'. I have no doubt some are in it for that, but not all. For the rest... who knows?

For me, I suppose, the bigger question is why I, as a legitimate customer, should put up with being treated like crap by a business who I am supporting through my custom? My own answer is quite simply that there is no reason whatsoever...

[Metalrocks]

i know that DRM doesnt protect their product and that people hack it without any problems. should have made it clearer in my earlier post.

i can respect that a company wants to protect their product but as you mentioned, it doesnt mean we, as the honest customer, have to jump through loops to play the game. its really sad where it all goes.
hope it doesnt get any worse in the future.

[Elliot Kane]

Hard to see how it CAN get worse than Blizzard's latest effort. Always online but with so little protection for the players that numerous accounts have been stolen entire, or equipment/gold taken. A direct consequence of all saves been kept in the Cloud.

Yes, you don't even own your own saves for your own characters in the game you bought with Diablo 3.

I can't even imagine how it gets worse than that. Unfortunately, I'm sure that some... person... in the games industry CAN come up with worse...

[Metalrocks]

well, we can always hope.

i never played diabolo 3 or any diabolo games. never had interest in them. i have read about their DRM and yes, it sucks for sure. i guess they thought that having an account gives you the feeling of being in control over your saves, etc.

they will for sure think of even worse DRM and cant understand why people are still pirating games. i guess when they read about it in official forums how bad the DRM is, they ignore it.

[Elliot Kane]

Beats me, Metal. I keep looking for a reason that actually makes sense of their position and the only stuff I come up with sounds really insulting. It's probably something to do with the distribution model changing and fear of that, total lack of understanding of the web, or of people, or of both.

Despite the incredible success of things like iTunes, they honestly seem to believe that the only difference between a pirate and a customer is opportunity. Which is a pretty darned sad view of people, IMO.

It's the monoliths that tend to embrace the worst forms of DRM, though, which says it all.

People like Notch (Creator of Minecraft) and the CDP guys (Witcher) are like the new kids on the block: they are at ease with the technology, know their audience and trust their customers. They can see DRM has no merits, so they just don't use it. Minecraft just hit the 6 million sales mark so they are surely doing something right!

The one thing the no-DRM companies all seem to have in common is that they just aren't interested in the pirates. Not that they don't CARE, obviously, but rather they focus their attentions on providing a great experience for the people who buy their games and rely on customer loyalty to do the rest. Seems to work for them, too.

[Quolli]

The only reason I use Steam is because I don't like sifting through My Programs to find the exe for my game and I don't like cluttering up my desktop with game icons. Steam as a DRM is fairly non-intrusive and the customer support is generally reliable (depending on the issue though).

In such a day and age where for some odd reason the good ol' disk check doesn't suffice, Steam is probably the best option that CD can take.

Personally never tried iTunes, but from what I hear your TV and music are bound to either the software or if you wish to take your media with you, you need an iDevice.

There was a campaign back with Minecraft (back when it was still in Alpha) to bring it Steam. Notch kindly refused and said something about how updating was a hassle (I suppose he always intended for customers to be able to get a pre-release of the next update).

iirc CD Projekt released Witcher 2 with DRM but patched it completely out. Go figure, I wish Ubi would follow suit. As in, actually completely patching their draconian DRM out like they say they would instead of modifying it so it isn't always eating at your bandwith.

[Metalrocks]

Originally Posted by Quolli

The only reason I use Steam is because I don't like sifting through My Programs to find the exe for my game and I don't like cluttering up my desktop with game icons. Steam as a DRM is fairly non-intrusive and the customer support is generally reliable (depending on the issue though).

In such a day and age where for some odd reason the good ol' disk check doesn't suffice, Steam is probably the best option that CD can take.
.

you are right about that. plus, you dont have to always swap CDs to play the game. because the CD can have some problems as well.

i have rainbow six veags 2 retail version, it worked fine. then after few years when i wanted to play it again, it tells me i have to insert the DVD in to my DVD rom. the damn DVD is inserted in to my damn drive.
installation works fine from the disc, but as soon i want to play, i get this crap.
once it was really cheap on steam, i got it form there. no problems now.

the same issue i had with quake 4. brand new from the box, installation worked fine, and then this...

steam has really a good service. no problems with them what so ever.

[Elliot Kane]

Originally Posted by Quolli

The only reason I use Steam is because I don't like sifting through My Programs to find the exe for my game and I don't like cluttering up my desktop with game icons. Steam as a DRM is fairly non-intrusive and the customer support is generally reliable (depending on the issue though).

As an option for those who want it, it's great. It adds all kinds of convenience. The bottom line for me, though, is that any game where it is required totally requires Steam to always exist at any future point when you want to reinstall your game. Given the number of games I have by companies which are long dead (In one case dying SO fast after release I never had time to install the game before the company died!) it seems to me to be a wise precaution not to get anything that requires any form of activation that needs more than my PC & the disk I have.

In such a day and age where for some odd reason the good ol' disk check doesn't suffice, Steam is probably the best option that CD can take.

But the disk check DOES suffice. Steam is indeed a great option, as I've said. I always think the more options gamers have the better for anyone. It's compulsion I object to.

Personally never tried iTunes, but from what I hear your TV and music are bound to either the software or if you wish to take your media with you, you need an iDevice.

It used to be so, but iTunes removed all DRM from their music as they felt it was a completely unneeded hassle. Their sales continue to rise, year on year.

There was a campaign back with Minecraft (back when it was still in Alpha) to bring it Steam. Notch kindly refused and said something about how updating was a hassle (I suppose he always intended for customers to be able to get a pre-release of the next update).

Notch is a smart guy. I don't even play Minecraft, but I have huge respect for him. He created an Indie game that took the world by storm on his own terms.

iirc CD Projekt released Witcher 2 with DRM but patched it completely out. Go figure, I wish Ubi would follow suit. As in, actually completely patching their draconian DRM out like they say they would instead of modifying it so it isn't always eating at your bandwith.

Namco-Bandai only agreed to publish Witcher 2 if it had DRM on at the start. CDP quietly fumed, then patched it out after the first week of release, IIRC!

Personally, I got it because I knew they'd remove the DRM ASAP. They said they would and I have found them trustworthy.

Original Witcher had Tages on it, which they patched out the instant it became clear that it clashed with Win 7.

There's no DRM at all on the new Witcher 2 Extended Edition, which is sitting by me right now.

They've pretty much sworn they won't ever use DRM again, and I believe them. At this point their reputation amongst gamers is pretty sky high and their sales reflect that.

As for Ubisoft... If there's something they can do to offend gamers, they'll probably find it. Then find a way to make it worse. Some baffling decisions, those guys make...

Originally Posted by Metalrocks

you are right about that. plus, you dont have to always swap CDs to play the game. because the CD can have some problems as well.

i have rainbow six veags 2 retail version, it worked fine. then after few years when i wanted to play it again, it tells me i have to insert the DVD in to my DVD rom. the damn DVD is inserted in to my damn drive.
installation works fine from the disc, but as soon i want to play, i get this crap.
once it was really cheap on steam, i got it form there. no problems now.

the same issue i had with quake 4. brand new from the box, installation worked fine, and then this...

steam has really a good service. no problems with them what so ever.

Check the DRM on that disk. Not saying it IS the problem, but it certainly sounds like it could be...

[Metalrocks]

Originally Posted by Elliot Kane

Check the DRM on that disk. Not saying it IS the problem, but it certainly sounds like it could be...

maybe but still weird when its the same pc with the same hardware and dint install any other programs that can affect my pc. wile newer games just work fine.
googled around at that time and actually no one was really able to answer this question or non of the solutions worked for me or even others.
but i had this problem only with these 2 games. now i have them on steam so i dont care anymore.

[Raina Audron]

I can´t believe it... previous TR games were never for GFWL, why this one? I wanted to buy it but now I definitely won´t, I don´t support any game with that crappy system... Had really bad experience with Dirt 2 - by selecting my own country, I couldn´t play multiplayer, so I had to buy another copy just to register it to a US account so I could use all its features... Not to mention the endless problem with logging into GFWL. Steam has its issues sometimes but is stable and has community, store and good customer support, so I prefer it vastly over GFWL. Also GOG is great too, no DRM at all. In conclusion, NO for GFWL!

[Metalrocks]

Originally Posted by Raina Audron

I can´t believe it... previous TR games were never for GFWL, why this one? I wanted to buy it but now I definitely won´t, I don´t support any game with that crappy system... Had really bad experience with Dirt 2 - by selecting my own country, I couldn´t play multiplayer, so I had to buy another copy just to register it to a US account so I could use all its features... Not to mention the endless problem with logging into GFWL. Steam has its issues sometimes but is stable and has community, store and good customer support, so I prefer it vastly over GFWL. Also GOG is great too, no DRM at all. In conclusion, NO for GFWL!

we all hope that its not true at all, and they used a template that just hapens to have LIVE written on.
lets hope they will make it clearer during the E3. because i dont think they will use this image with the title wirtten on it without the beautiful lara.

[Metalrocks]

Originally Posted by reidgarry

Services that automatically starts at windows start up eats up some computer resources. In order for us to maximize our computer resources, we must disable service we often do not use like windows messenger.

thats true.
i never have this stuff running in the background. the only thing running is my anti virus program, which never had any interference with my games or other programs. and steam of course.

[Madenice]

Well, let's hope they just used the fancy "Games for LIVE" banner, just to make it clear it's the PC box, and nothing more!

[Metalrocks]

Originally Posted by Madenice

Well, let's hope they just used the fancy "Games for LIVE" banner, just to make it clear it's the PC box, and nothing more!

i rather read " games for windows" instead of LIVE.

[Elliot Kane]

I love to see 'Games For Windows' on a box. It's a real mark of quality. Amazing the difference one little word can make, isn't it?

[Metalrocks]

it sure is.because then its more then clear enough that its for the pc. but as soon LIVE is written on it....

[jaycw2309]

All mock ups done for artwork have a `standard` template used.. This is the case here.. We've not done a GfWL title since Batman, and all our previous titles since have been Steamworks. just saying

[Elliot Kane]

Steam is not acceptable as a requirement for a single player offline game, either. Disk check only, please

[Phaid]

Originally Posted by Elliot Kane

Steam is not acceptable as a requirement for a single player offline game, either. Disk check only, please

Agree, no mandatory Steam bloatware installation for retail copies, please.
I've had enough problems with that buggy crap when I bought Deus Ex 3.

[Madenice]

Originally Posted by Metalrocks

i rather read " games for windows" instead of LIVE.

Indeed!!

[Metalrocks]

Originally Posted by Phaid

Agree, no mandatory Steam bloatware installation for retail copies, please.
I've had enough problems with that buggy crap when I bought Deus Ex 3.

thats weird. i got this game through steam and never had any problems with it. even when i lost my connection, i still can play this game without any problems on steam.

@jaycw2309
sounds good. much better then GfWL.

[Elliot Kane]

From what I gather - and this is NOT fully researched by me, only going by a lot of gamer comments, so treat with caution! - how good a service Steam can offer is somewhat dependent on both country and location within a country.

It's obvious that people with better connections love Steam more, but Americans seem to have a more positive experience with it than some other nationalities.

So one person having no problems whilst another does might - repeat, MIGHT - be down to geographical location.

[Metalrocks]

Originally Posted by Elliot Kane

From what I gather - and this is NOT fully researched by me, only going by a lot of gamer comments, so treat with caution! - how good a service Steam can offer is somewhat dependent on both country and location within a country.

It's obvious that people with better connections love Steam more, but Americans seem to have a more positive experience with it than some other nationalities.

So one person having no problems whilst another does might - repeat, MIGHT - be down to geographical location.

maybe so, but where i used to live in australia, my connection was crap. at the beginning i had to use a 56k modem and not even with that thing i was able to get the full speed. so of course i had lots of drop outs but still could play SP games without any problems.