"Very well, I will speak my piece plainly..." T4 Rants, Rumour & Suggestions Thread

[tarvis79]

The simple truth is that we don't know why there's no marketing yet, but the simplest (and most likely) explanation is that they're just not ready.

I'll admit that the whispers that SE is more involved here than they were in DX:HR are worrisome to me. DX was fantastic and gave me a lot of hope for T4 and EM in general. SE has been making awful games for years-the last one I liked was Chrono Trigger. Hopefully, they'll keep their hands off.

[zhunt]

Originally Posted by Coyotegrey

Whoever you are, and wherever you're from...whatever. I love you. You too, zcapp.

of course, the irony being, probably the lack of info is the reason for all the ranting, raving, and general insanity.

if there was something to talk about, that would be the topic of conversation.

"what do u think of that latest screen shot"?
"how about garretts new laser guided heat seeking arrow"
"i cant believe benny is garretts father!!!!"
"that scene in the teaser trailer with karras riding a burrick is stupid"

etc etc etc.

the void is being filled with all sorts of crud.

people would have stuff to actually talk about, debate, give opinion on etc.
instead the percieved (actual or not) lack of info/communication from the developers has people jumping to conclusions. in a way, i guess they can take it as a compliment cause if we werent so passionate and interested in this game and wanting to make sure its good by offering ideas, opionions etc, we wouldnt be in here debating and discussing the little we know.

its also the case that due to this interest and passion, some peoples patience has clearly worn thin cause they are desperate to hear whats happening and get some solid info.

[Viktoria]

Originally Posted by tarvis79

The simple truth is that we don't know why there's no marketing yet, but the simplest (and most likely) explanation is that they're just not ready.

Agreed.

I'll admit that the whispers that SE is more involved here than they were in DX:HR are worrisome to me. DX was fantastic and gave me a lot of hope for T4 and EM in general. SE has been making awful games for years-the last one I liked was Chrono Trigger. Hopefully, they'll keep their hands off.

I think you have misunderstood the whispers, understandably. SE is not telling EM what to do when it comes to the development of the game, so worry not. SE & EM will work together and have obviously set a plan in place. All will be revealed when it is time to.

[5055672439]

Originally Posted by zcapp96

Wow, how unbelievably arrogant! Because my view differs from yours it must mean I don't know what I am talking about!

I shall let you into a little secret, the people on this forum are not the key demographic for this game to be a success. We will probably buy the game no matter what. They are going to concentrate on winning over the casual gamer that has not played the series before. The way not to do that is to release stuff too early so their interest peaks and moves on before the game is released.

Look at the way Skyrim was handled, not a word for the three years the game was in development and even flat denials that there even was a game. Then all of a sudden a media blitz, screen shoots, FMV, footage of actual gameplay! Do you think they whipped that all up over the course of a weekend? Or going by you logic, they deliberately kept it all secret for the three years before because they hate their fans? It is standard practice in any form of media to wait for a product to be near completion before they release details.

What do you actually want? They told us they are making the game, Viktoria and others have reassured us repeatedly that they are all still working hard on the project and just going to the EM website you can see they are still hiring for the project! The only thing that will make some people happy is a blow by blow account of what every one is doing for every moment of the day. It is not going to happen.

We have no way of knowing at what stage of development the game is at so all these conspiracy theories about SE wanting to sabotage their own business and the like are just ridiculous.

So if you don't really question or want any news about Thief, if you continue to hold a, it will come when it comes stop complaining type of attitude. Why are you here?

[5055672439]

I guess without news and communication this entire *** forum serves no purpose. I think we come here now to fight for something, fight against the mistreatment of the hardcore thief fans who have come here to try and make sure the game doesn't suck. That is hard because we have nothing to guide and no evidence of anyone who would listen.

[Coyotegrey]

Originally Posted by 5055672439

I guess without news and communication this entire *** forum serves no purpose. I think we come here now to fight for something, fight against the mistreatment of the hardcore thief fans who have come here to try and make sure the game doesn't suck. That is hard because we have nothing to guide and no evidence of anyone who would listen.

Don't worry. The Thief team is composed of hardcore fans, just like DX:HR was composed of hardcore Deus Ex fans.

[5055672439]

Originally Posted by Coyotegrey

Don't worry. The Thief team is composed of hardcore fans, just like DX:HR was composed of hardcore Deus Ex fans.

Really? I guess that I wouldn't know.

[tarvis79]

So now the only reason to be in the forum is to whine? Some of us are here because we enjoy speculating, or reminiscing about the past games, or *shocker* getting to know other Thief fans. I must say, the number of incessantly whiny douches on here--when there is NOTHING TO WHINE ABOUT--makes me disappointed in what used to be a fantastic community of fans.

I'd understand if we discovered Thief 4 was that modern remake we were all so afraid of, or if we saw a trailer and it was just an Assassin's Creed ripoff, but there is NOTHING. So you whine that there is nothing. I would wager most of my bank account that the people whining about nothing now will continue to whine once marketing begins, and would whine no matter what the released materials showed. Let me reiterate a lesson your mother should've taught you when you were little-if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. If you have nothing to do but complain, then why are YOU here?

/rant

I think the whiners are just a VERY loud minority. zcapp, I, for one, am always happy to see another person in here with a positive attitude.

[5055672439]

Originally Posted by tarvis79

So now the only reason to be in the forum is to whine? Some of us are here because we enjoy speculating, or reminiscing about the past games, or *shocker* getting to know other Thief fans. I must say, the number of incessantly whiny douches on here--when there is NOTHING TO WHINE ABOUT--makes me disappointed in what used to be a fantastic community of fans.

I'd understand if we discovered Thief 4 was that modern remake we were all so afraid of, or if we saw a trailer and it was just an Assassin's Creed ripoff, but there is NOTHING. So you whine that there is nothing. I would wager most of my bank account that the people whining about nothing now will continue to whine once marketing begins, and would whine no matter what the released materials showed. Let me reiterate a lesson your mother should've taught you when you were little-if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. If you have nothing to do but complain, then why are YOU here?

/rant

I think the whiners are just a VERY loud minority. zcapp, I, for one, am always happy to see another person in here with a positive attitude.

It's all been said and done if you want to speculate. Now if we really want to make categories of the childish people on the forum I guess we can group them into whiners and suck ups.

[tarvis79]

Who's a suck up? I'd rather just not have to sift through a bunch of *ing to find stuff that's worth reading. I'd also like it if every thread didn't get derailed into bashing EM for no reason. If EM makes terrible decisions about T4, I'll be the first to call them out. My point is that there is NOTHING TO WHINE ABOUT because we have NO IDEA WHAT'S GOING ON. Whining at this phase is indicative of nothing more than a bad attitude.

[Dragonknight]

@Coyotegrey
"Don't worry. The Thief team is composed of hardcore fans, just like DX:HR was composed of hardcore Deus Ex fans."

That's not good. On the DX:HR forums, there were quite a few threads about what the fans wanted and didn't want. Guess what? Almost everything the majority of the fans didn't like was implemented anyway. If the developers "listened" like they supposedly listened to the DX fans (you know; the ones they didn't actually listen too according to what a EM representative said in an interview), then Thief is going to have quite a few things implemented that the fans aren't going to like.

[zcapp96]

Originally Posted by 5055672439

So if you don't really question or want any news about Thief, if you continue to hold a, it will come when it comes stop complaining type of attitude. Why are you here?

I would love to know all the in's and out's of the new game, would drool over some screen shots or, even better, some game play videos. I would positively cream my pants at a playable demo. I just take the attitude that the lack of them at the moment is because they are not ready yet. Simple as that. No conspiracy theories, no sadistic underline reason just not ready yet. And no amount of moaning is going to change that.

In a way the long development process is re-assuring. They are taking their time over it and trying to get it right, not some rush job just to sell units. I want the Guard AI to be so complex that you almost believe then to be alive. I want the levels to be huge and challenging and the graphics and sound to really draw you in. I want it to be faithful to the original three but show some innovations as well. All of this will take time to do so I am hopeful that this is what they are doing!

There are other reasons for being here as well though, There has been some fantastic insights into the games and I am really enjoying the discussion on morality going on in another thread.

[5055672439]

Originally Posted by tarvis79

Who's a suck up? I'd rather just not have to sift through a bunch of *ing to find stuff that's worth reading. I'd also like it if every thread didn't get derailed into bashing EM for no reason. If EM makes terrible decisions about T4, I'll be the first to call them out. My point is that there is NOTHING TO WHINE ABOUT because we have NO IDEA WHAT'S GOING ON. Whining at this phase is indicative of nothing more than a bad attitude.

No one is bashing EM on here, their thread or post would have been removed. I think its pretty clear at this point that EM has their hands tied when it comes to public relations.

[Coyotegrey]

Originally Posted by Dragonknight

@Coyotegrey
"Don't worry. The Thief team is composed of hardcore fans, just like DX:HR was composed of hardcore Deus Ex fans."

That's not good. On the DX:HR forums, there were quite a few threads about what the fans wanted and didn't want. Guess what? Almost everything the majority of the fans didn't like was implemented anyway. If the developers "listened" like they supposedly listened to the DX fans (you know; the ones they didn't actually listen too according to what a EM representative said in an interview), then Thief is going to have quite a few things implemented that the fans aren't going to like.

We can't implement everything fans want and recommend. And pleasing everyone is impossible. Still, we're all very proud of how DX:HR turned out, and it seems both critical and consumer opinion is positive as well.

Originally Posted by 5055672439

No one is bashing EM on here, their thread or post would have been removed. I think its pretty clear at this point that EM has their hands tied when it comes to public relations.

I think we've done quite well when we've been given the green light. I'm very proud of our efforts with DX:HR.

[5055672439]

Originally Posted by zcapp96

I would love to know all the in's and out's of the new game, would drool over some screen shots or, even better, some game play videos. I would positively cream my pants at a playable demo. I just take the attitude that the lack of them at the moment is because they are not ready yet. Simple as that. No conspiracy theories, no sadistic underline reason just not ready yet. And no amount of moaning is going to change that.

In a way the long development process is re-assuring. They are taking their time over it and trying to get it right, not some rush job just to sell units. I want the Guard AI to be so complex that you almost believe then to be alive. I want the levels to be huge and challenging and the graphics and sound to really draw you in. I want it to be faithful to the original three but show some innovations as well. All of this will take time to do so I am hopeful that this is what they are doing!

There are other reasons for being here as well though, There has been some fantastic insights into the games and I am really enjoying the discussion on morality going on in another thread.

I love the Art forum; we have some incredibly talented people here. There are lots of great talks on here, but all of it misses out on the one crucial point, Thief 4.

I would really like a teaser trailer. But even better I would like to see what stage of development the game was in. How about taking all the Deus Ex stuff off the front page of their website and even just pretending that they are in the middle of working on a project that has even the slightest bit of importance?

I’m not feeling the hype for this game. I’m feeling 3 years of nothing. There are two threads for news; one that’s been closed that has 200 pages of speculation and absolutely no news. Companies don’t just tell everyone they are going to make a game, put up a forum for news and so the die hard fans can express to the company what they want in the new game, then keep the development top secret and have no fan communication. No one’s angry at anyone for trying to having fun passing the time, but to pretend like we aren’t in this situation is just… weird.

If it comes off as moaning or it hampers your fun, then I’m sorry. I can’t speak for everyone. But I think we are all in the same boat on this one.

[wdogify]

Just a question coyotegrey:

Why you never answer when we asked if thief4 will be at e3 2011,gamescom 2011,...???
that make people hoping for nothing...

So will we have thief4 info at GDC 2012? Yes? No? Maybe?

[Coyotegrey]

Originally Posted by wdogify

Just a question coyotegrey:

Why you never answer when we asked if thief4 will be at e3 2011,gamescom 2011,...???
that make people hoping for nothing...

So will we have thief4 info at GDC 2012? Yes? No? Maybe?

Sorry. I can neither confirm nor deny.

[wdogify]

I understand, but it's very frustrating because a lot of people (I think) hope to hax thief 4 news at every next big event like GDC,... and finally get nothing...

[Coyotegrey]

Originally Posted by wdogify

I understand, but it's very frustrating because a lot of people (I think) hope to hax thief 4 news at every next big event like GDC,... and finally get nothing...

I know, and we appreciate your interest immensely. But this is the reality we have to deal with, and it's not an uncommon one in the entertainment industry.

[Putkikameli]

Originally Posted by Coyotegrey

We can't implement everything fans want and recommend. And pleasing everyone is impossible. Still, we're all very proud of how DX:HR turned out, and it seems both critical and consumer opinion is positive as well.

While I haven't really voiced my concerns or anything, but I do it now. I my self am not really a great fan of Deus Ex series. Sure, I enjoyed DX1 a lot and Invisible War not that much. And compared to IW you did a heck of a job with DX3 (while it of course had it's flaws and was somewhat simplified compared to DX1). But what concerns me, is that simplifying or known as consolitis.

Now, the first games to suffer from consolitis were DX:IW and Thief 3. In those games it was mainly because hardware limitations consoles had. However then the virus consolitis mutated and we started to get games like Oblivion, Fallout 3, Splinter Cell Conviction and the list goes on. Aside from suffering consoles hardware limitations they were horribly dumbed down. Older fans were completely alienated. Sure Oblivion was commercial success and sold millions, but what about the older fans of the TES series? Oblivion was clearly made for people with attention span of a guinea pig in crystal meth. And same happened with Fallout 3. I was one of those old time Fallout fans who were really disappointed with the game. It just wasn't meant to please older fans anymore.

Sure, there isn't any evidence supporting Thief 4 will be horrible dumbed down Assassin's Creed clone with water arrows. But, to be honest there isn't really anything against it either. I personally am really concerned it will be made only to please wider crowd who like twitch gaming instead of us old fans.

Sorry that this text came out as horrible mess, but I'm not really that good in putting out my thoughts as text. And not being native English speaker doesn't help either...

[tarvis79]

I'd be very interested in hearing some specifics of your beefs with Oblivion and Fallout 3, as I had the opposite experience. I only started Elder Scrolls with Morrowind, and while I liked it better than Oblivion for the most part I would hardly savage Oblivion the way your post did. Same with Fallout; I had played and loved the first two games and thought Bethesda did a terrific job resurrecting and modernizing the series.

You're right about the hardware limitations hurting DX:IW and TDS. Those tiny levels and load zones crippled the immersion. Hardware limitations shouldn't be a factor today, though.

[Putkikameli]

Originally Posted by tarvis79

I'd be very interested in hearing some specifics of your beefs with Oblivion and Fallout 3, as I had the opposite experience. I only started Elder Scrolls with Morrowind, and while I liked it better than Oblivion for the most part I would hardly savage Oblivion the way your post did. Same with Fallout; I had played and loved the first two games and thought Bethesda did a terrific job resurrecting and modernizing the series.

You're right about the hardware limitations hurting DX:IW and TDS. Those tiny levels and load zones crippled the immersion. Hardware limitations shouldn't be a factor today, though.

My beef with Oblivion is the way they simplified everything(hell, they did it with Skyrim too!). Stats didn't really matter. Stealth was lousy, Dialogue was... Er, what dialogue? PC port was horribly optimized. Sucky UI. Uninspiring story. You could be leader of mage's guild while having no understanding of magic! Same goes for other guilds. And what the hell was that damned social minigame!? etc. etc.

And Fallout 3... Well, they turned a nice cRPG in to a shooter with RPG elements. Dialogue wasn't up to standards of it's predecessors. You couldn't play idiot character anymore(it was quite fun challenge). Combat was so stupid it is hard to imagine. I still can't imagine why they ditched turn based combat of it's predecessors. Sure it could have used some tuning, but no. Press button to enter god mode and kill everyone! Also medicine skills were dumbed down too. Where in FO1 and 2 you needed to visit doctor to fix crippled limbs or be a good doctor your self. In FO3 you just used stimpack and you'd be back in action! In addition of having a skill check play a minigame too! Why not to have just skill check and virtual dice roll whether or not you succeeded? And once again, PC textures were muddy, UI was sucky and generally graphics were dated and didn't really take any use of PC hardware. Yet still it had it's stutters due to lousy optimization.

Sure it did some things well, like adding wear and tear on guns, and DIY weapons, but to be honest it broke more than it fixed. Good for you that you enjoyed it, I however still cringe at the thought that they call it Fallout 3 and there's probably fourth coming.

Man, I really hope Thief 4 won't end up like Fallout.

[tarvis79]

So, a laundry list of specific changes you didn't like. Fair enough, I suppose. I'm interested why you think stats didn't matter, because I'm pretty sure the stats worked exactly the same way they did in Morrowind. Stealth was loads better than Morrowind, which was just "hold Ctrl to sneak and hope for the best." At least in Oblivion, movement, lighting, cover, noise, etc. all mattered. Dialogue? The full voicing of all of Oblivion's dialogue was completely unprecedented at the time, all 50+ hours of it. I agree about the UI, that was awful and thankfully fixed by Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul. I didn't really like the main storyline either, but I really enjoyed some of the side ones (Dark Brotherhood, Knights of the Nine). And Shivering Isles was just awesome. Maybe even better than Morrowind. I did miss the skill requirements for guild advancement; I liked Morrowind's system much better. Agreed on the persuasion minigame, it was just asinine. Still, these are all very little things. Oblivion dramatically improved many things, including but not limited to:
i) the journal (what a freaking mess it was in Morrowind, and it didn't even exist before that)
ii) the combat (pretty poor compared to its own competition, but vastly superior to Morrowind's "click and hope for the best")
iii) lockpicking (again, something to do instead of "click and roll the dice")
iv) fast travel (thank God for this)
v) more variety in quests (Oblivion was still kind of repetitive, but good grief it got bad in Morrowind)

Fallout 3: Again, dialogue was fully voiced, and how could you not love Liam Neeson? Not to mention our beloved Stephen Russell? I really didn't see the dialogue issue in Fallout 3. The idiot character was fun, but it was just a diversion. As far as combat, I couldn't disagree with you more. I think Fallout 3 was a bit too easy (but I bet you didn't play on Very Hard), but the turn-based mechanics of the older games were mostly due to the technical limitations of the Infinity Engine. I don't want to preserve gameplay mechanics that had their origin in limited hardware capability. Just because something is a "shooter" doesn't mean it fails as an RPG (see DX1 or System Shock 1 and 2). I actually DESPISE the skill check/roll the dice system present in older RPGs. I greatly favor elevating the importance of player skill. Hell, one of my favorite things about Thief is that the only way to make it easier is to GET BETTER AT IT. You can't just level up to solve all your problems.

I don't think Fallout 3 broke more than it fixed. The huge open world with hundreds of places to explore (as opposed to 10 or 20 in the originals) was amazing. The visceral impact of the Capital Wasteland and ruined DC itself went well beyond anything the originals were capable of. Stealth was almost like playing Thief: hide in the shadows, stay quiet, and avoid their line of sight. The originals, as I recall, were "press the sneak mode button and hope the dice rolls go your way."

Larger point being, for Thief and other series alike: Many people believe older games were better because of the nostalgia factor. I understand that: we were younger, less jaded, less experienced, and doubtless enjoyed the earlier experiences more. Something can only be new once, and it will never quite be as good as the time it was new. 6 years may not sound like that much, but it means I played TDP as a middle schooler and TDS as a sophomore in college. No matter when Thief 4 comes out, I'll be playing it as a married, full-blown adult. That alone impacts how enjoyable something is, independent of ANY differences in the games. You can come up with a laundry list of little things that were better in the old ones, and I can come up with a list of things that were better in the new ones. Unless it's something big that strikes at the core of the experience (like level size and broken immersion in Thief 3) it doesn't matter that much.

Just my .02.

[Putkikameli]

Originally Posted by tarvis79

So, a laundry list of specific changes you didn't like. Fair enough, I suppose. I'm interested why you think stats didn't matter, because I'm pretty sure the stats worked exactly the same way they did in Morrowind. Stealth was loads better than Morrowind, which was just "hold Ctrl to sneak and hope for the best." At least in Oblivion, movement, lighting, cover, noise, etc. all mattered. Dialogue? The full voicing of all of Oblivion's dialogue was completely unprecedented at the time, all 50+ hours of it. I agree about the UI, that was awful and thankfully fixed by Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul. I didn't really like the main storyline either, but I really enjoyed some of the side ones (Dark Brotherhood, Knights of the Nine). And Shivering Isles was just awesome. Maybe even better than Morrowind. I did miss the skill requirements for guild advancement; I liked Morrowind's system much better. Agreed on the persuasion minigame, it was just asinine. Still, these are all very little things. Oblivion dramatically improved many things, including but not limited to:
i) the journal (what a freaking mess it was in Morrowind, and it didn't even exist before that)
ii) the combat (pretty poor compared to its own competition, but vastly superior to Morrowind's "click and hope for the best")
iii) lockpicking (again, something to do instead of "click and roll the dice")
iv) fast travel (thank God for this)
v) more variety in quests (Oblivion was still kind of repetitive, but good grief it got bad in Morrowind)

Fallout 3: Again, dialogue was fully voiced, and how could you not love Liam Neeson? Not to mention our beloved Stephen Russell? I really didn't see the dialogue issue in Fallout 3. The idiot character was fun, but it was just a diversion. As far as combat, I couldn't disagree with you more. I think Fallout 3 was a bit too easy (but I bet you didn't play on Very Hard), but the turn-based mechanics of the older games were mostly due to the technical limitations of the Infinity Engine. I don't want to preserve gameplay mechanics that had their origin in limited hardware capability. Just because something is a "shooter" doesn't mean it fails as an RPG (see DX1 or System Shock 1 and 2). I actually DESPISE the skill check/roll the dice system present in older RPGs. I greatly favor elevating the importance of player skill.

I don't think Fallout 3 broke more than it fixed. The huge open world with hundreds of places to explore (as opposed to 10 or 20 in the originals) was amazing. The visceral impact of the Capital Wasteland and ruined DC itself went well beyond anything the originals were capable of. Stealth was almost like playing Thief: hide in the shadows, stay quiet, and avoid their line of sight. The originals, as I recall, were "press the sneak mode button and hope the dice rolls go your way."

Larger point being, for Thief and other series alike: Many people believe older games were better because of the nostalgia factor. I understand that: we were younger, less jaded, less experienced, and doubtless enjoyed the earlier experiences more. Something can only be new once, and it will never quite be as good as the time it was new. You can come up with a laundry list of little things that were better in the old ones, and I can come up with a list of things that were better in the new ones. Unless it's something big that strikes at the core of the experience (like level size and broken immersion in Thief 3) it doesn't matter that much.

Just my .02.

Fully voiced does not mean better. In oblivion you had what? 4-5 voice actors? I guess it wasn't that much more in Fallout 3 either. I really do think Liam Neeson is a great actor he alone can't save Fallout 3. And in RPG player skill should matter more than characters skill? Really? RPG is all about your character! You will experience the game as your character. Your character could be a really good at shooting with pistols where as you wouldn't. It could be you don't know anything about medicine, yet your character knows how to effectively fix broken bones and take care of wounds. And that where Oblivion and Fallout 3 went wrong. They rewarded too much player skill instead of character skill. Fallout's turn based combat effectively eliminated my need to aim and my shooting success was determined if my character was good at handling guns! To this date I still play Fallout and experiment with different character builds. It really added replay value, because you could not expect you can be everything on one play through. I'd argue Fallout's combat system wasn't because of hardware limitations, but intentional design. Instead of taking advantage of players aiming skills it used characters.

In Oblivion there really wasn't any choices let alone consequences. It wasn't much better in Fallout 3 either. Sure we had Megaton, but meh what did I exactly lose? Couple of uninspiring copy paste quests and NPC's I couldn't give a damn about. The story in Fallout 3 wasn't nothing too shabby either let alone the ending.

And low intelligence character speaking like a moron was just a diversion? Hell, it really defined how people reacted to you. Some people tried to take advantage of your low intelligence you had while other were more compassionate. Those stats S.P.E.C.I.A.L or strength, perception, endurance, charisma, intelligence, agility and luck were really used to define your character and had effects on your gameplay. In Fallout 3 they didn't really serve any other purpose but how many hit points you had or how much junk you could carry with you.

Sure just because something is a shooter doesn't mean it fails as RPG. When it is called Fallout and has name and setting only in common with it's predecessors it does fail. Horribly. But hey, at least it was more accessible for lil'Timmy 10 year old. My god, How on earth did I ever manage to play Fallout's as a kid back in the days when they weren't so accessible!?

[zcapp96]

Originally Posted by tarvis79

iv) fast travel (thank God for this)

I never allowed myself to fast travel, it didn't seem right!

I think peoples views on games depend on where they come into the series. I started on oblivion and absolutely loved it, clocked up 350+ hours over the course of 2 years before my hard drive crashed one day (Noooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). Played as a thief (of course) and noticed the huge difference in the behaviour of the AI compared to any of the thief games. In oblivion you only had two states, oblivious to your presence or all out attack! Makes me appreciate just how much work goes into the thief games. Didn't like the various downloadable strongholds, could of at least had a quest involved to get them. Also found my thief experience led me to acquire stupid amounts of gold, had over 10 million by the end.

Although TDS gets abuse from some people I am sure if it had been the first or only game in the series it would have been heralded as a masterpiece!