THE CITY WATCH 2012 - News/Tweets -UPDATE: EM & Crystal Dynamics collaboration for TR

[Yaphy]

Originally Posted by contrarian

I'm really starting to get worried about some people here...can you say, "Out of Touch With Reality?"

Trying to assign a "reality" to a fictional game cannot be done scientifically. Reality and fiction are exact opposites.

Trying to debate whether or not a video game character would act a certain way based on what a few scriptwriters told Stephen Russell to say, is folly.

If you want to break it down, if you all insist on applying a reality to a video game, then this is as close as you could get:

Most video games have 3 levels: Beginner, Normal, Expert. The developers initially base all gameplay on the normal level. The definition of Normal is: Conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected. When we play as Garrett on Normal difficulty, we can assume he is acting as he normally would if the video game were actually real life. We can assume he would be acting as a master thief would be expected to.

When the devs shape the "Expert" level, they add restrictions to make it artificially more difficult. It would be like your coach forcing you play a game of Golf with only a driver, a 5 iron, and a putter. Playing this way is not usual, not typical, and not expected. He added this restriction to you to make it harder for you, for whatever reason.

Likewise, when the devs are constructing the "Beginner" level, they are removing restrictions from the Normal level to make it easier for you. It would be akin to you getting to move 100 yards closer to every green when you tee'd off, and the hole was enlarged to 2 feet in diameter.

Normal levels in all video games are how games were meant to be played. Normal level accurately reflects how any and all characters would act in the fictional setting they are programmed into. If Garrett has no restriction on killing in "Normal" play, and is not penalized in the least (oftentimes rewarded) for slaughtering every living, breathing, thing, then by the laws of logic, deduction. and common sense, Garrett is open to killing. It is up to you, who have taken on the character of Garrett, to determine if you are a killer or not.

Quotes from "Expert" level missions, trying to pass that off as how Garrett really would act, is as silly as forcing Tiger Woods to play 18 holes with only a Driver, 5 iron, and Putter and thinking his score would accurately reflect how he would REALLY do.

I challenge anyone to challenge anything I said. I'm really proud of this post. It's as good as it gets.

You are surprisingly spot on. I really like the way you often use metaphors to reinforce your stance. It makes it a very solid argument if you compare it to golf like you did. The problem is that this question will only repeat itself. How do I know that? Because it has happened before. Some people have used Garrett as an excuse to reinforce their view on a matter and then some other people point it out and the flaws behind it. The conclusion have then been that the question doesn't get a proper answer and is instead brought up a month later when the arguments needs to be repeated. The scientific way would be to change opinion when we with pure logic disproves a stance from objective to subjective. But since this is the internet you can only hope for something like that.

[Hypevosa]

Then you're admitting you think Garrett's a normal thief, not a master thief. An amateur, a murderer, and unprofessional.

A truly masterful golfer could do well with just a driver a 5 iron and a putter. There's a reason there are trick shots, world records, and youtube videos of insane, incredible things that don't make sense from a practical perspective. And that ability what makes the difference between a master and just your average person within said profession. It's also not really uncommon at all for masters to afflict themselves by doing things in a more unusual or difficult fashion as they push their limits solely for the purpose of seeing what exactly they are.

Garrett's a prideful hole, and it seems perfectly in character for him to do such a thing and regard those who do any less in such a manner.

[contrarian]

I'm quite sure Tiger Woods could still shoot under 80 with those 3 clubs, but that's not how he would normally do.

I'll not debate the character flaws of a fictional character created by a few guys who thought it'd be cool to create a video game with a thief as the anti-hero.

Each difficulty level exists as an entirely different "reality". Each has entirely different sets of rules. One cannot compare the rules and or quotes from "Expert" and apply them to "Normal". What happens in "Expert" does not apply to "Normal."

Hey Tiger Woods shot an 80 using only a driver, 5 iron, and putter. He's really not that good anymore. Mickelson just shot a 66--he's way better than Woods. Wait a minute, Mickelson got to use all his clubs, how can you compare the two? Hold on, Rory Mcilroy just shot a 58, he's the best! Nope, he got to tee off from the ladies tees, use an illegal driver, and got 5 mulligans.

You just can't cross compare rules. It doesn't work. Does not compute.

It's reasonable to think that a person brazen enough to break into a mansion and rob the place blind wouldn't think twice to put an arrow through the neck of a guard who was about to sound the alarm. Is it? Am I wrong? Would the thief risk getting caught and executed because he has some moral code against killing? Oh, I already know what you're going to say, "A master thief wouldn't have to put an arrow through the neck of a guard about to sound an alarm because a master thief would never be noticed in the first place."

In the perfect, fictionalized video game world, complete with quick saves and quick loads and moronic artificial "intelligent" NPC's who try to run through solid brick walls...YES, you would be correct.

[Yaphy]

Originally Posted by Hypevosa

Then you're admitting you think Garrett's a normal thief, not a master thief. An amateur, a murderer, and unprofessional.

No. In the Thief games you play as Garrett, a master thief. But then we have a normal difficulty on the game that you play as a master thief. Normal in this instance does not mean unprofessional. It still means that he is a master thief. Garrett is the frame that you as a player need to fill. The "master thief" title is not fixed. It changes depending on what difficulty you choose. Would you say that Garrett isn't a master thief just because you play on normal? Expert=cannon is something that is made up and based on a relatively logic way of thinking. But it's a flawed way of thinking when we come to the real fact. Then it all comes down to what you prefer. If you are saying that someone is playing Thief the "wrong" way or a way that isn't Thiefy or even intentional even though someone else is playing according to the rules that the developers have set up then maybe you should not be the one to play the game. Ghosting is the only playstyle that doesn't even have any real ingame rules. So any other way of playing the game called "Thief" that is still within the rules of standard difficulty are still the way that Thief is supposed to be played.

I don't remember what the qoute was, but BigBoss had a very good qoute from someone that basically said that the person that tries to limit other people from playing a game is the one that deserves it the least. As long as it doesn't compromise your gamestyle, then what do you earn on trying to limit the game for others? Expert will still be there. But is it cannon? That is up to each and every one that plays the game.

[Rockn-Roll]

Reality is subject to perception. For example, I'm typing right now...reality is now for me how I feel the keys on my finger tips and forming new thoughts in my mind to create more text. But, for you, the reader, it's a totally different perception. All of the text has been written and you are reading it and recreating my thoughts in your mind...perhaps with your own inner voice or perhaps with a voice that you create based on what you have read before. There's not even a guarantee that the thoughts you create are really the thoughts I had while writing. Each of us has a different "reality" concerning this text. The same can be applied to Garrett, especially when you can play Garrett on different levels.

While it is true that none of the difficulty levels have a different Garrett...the way we play Garrett will be different and thus our perception is different. For example contrarian obviously has been playing Garrett on Normal hence Garrett, to him, is a psychotic assassin with a compulsive dissorder where if he sees an opportunity to kill someone he naturally finds a way to achieve the murder and the resulting emotional stimulation. But, I play on Expert hence Garrett, to me, is a psychotic sneaker with a compulsive dissorder where if he sees an opportunity to slip by without being seen and pocket everything including the coins in their pockets he naturally finds a way to achieve the theft and the resulting emotional stimulation.

Regardless of our perceptions...the game is called Thief and not Murderer...and the unwritten goal of the game is to Sneak and Steal...regardless of the marketing trailers i.e. intros where Garrett is shown committing murder.

[ClubbedToDeath]

You guys invented ghosting just to make a game more difficult and thats that . Dont try to justify that game stlye rambling about Garrett and his state of mind and inforce on someone else that it is the only right way to play the game stating all diffrent facts about out hero who is by the way computer character...Dont like the idea of playing a video game in which main character is controling me becouse of his state of mind , what about me and what i think is the right way ? ... One thing Im 100% sure Garrett is a thiving little

[Blue Sky]

Absolutely there's no "right" way to play the game, but certainly the games themselves do promote the idea that an expert thief doesn't kill. That idea is absolutely implicit within the games, simply from the fact that if you play the game on Expert difficulty setting, you're not allowed to kill anyone.

Fans extrapolate from that (and the character of Garrett) further, to think of Garrett as a professional thief, with the romantic idea of him breezing into a place, stealing what he came for, and exiting leaving absolutely no trace that he was there; not sighted by anyone.

Obviously the previous games don't support the fan-created "ghosting" playstyle, but there's a chance Thief 4 might...it's a recognised 'achievement' in Deus Ex: Human Revolution, after all.

But at the end of the day, there's nothing wrong with playing the games absolutely how you like. Ghost a mission, or kill everyone in the mission. That's up to you. But certainly the games do promote the idea that an "expert" thief doesn't kill.

[george12123]

I believe that about one year ago we were quite worried about people coming to this forum and wanting thief to not be about about stealth "cuz stealth iz fur ***guts and n00bs" but to be about killing and murder and parkour.

Gentlemen this is now becoming a reality, I pray to the builder that EM know what is right for Thief.

[zcapp96]

Originally Posted by Blue Sky

Absolutely there's no "right" way to play the game, but certainly the games themselves do promote the idea that an expert thief doesn't kill. That idea is absolutely implicit within the games, simply from the fact that if you play the game on Expert difficulty setting, you're not allowed to kill anyone.

I would disagree, for the most part killing is allowed, it is only on expert that this restriction is in place. If fact, when it does appear on lower settings it is never for the reason that it is morally bad, it is always because Basso's girlfriend wouldn't like it (not that Garrett thinks it is wrong) or that it would harm the mission. Even on expert it is a matter of professional pride that stops him not moral outrage.

[Blue Sky]

Originally Posted by zcapp96

I would disagree, for the most part killing is allowed, it is only on expert that this restriction is in place. If fact, when it does appear on lower settings it is never for the reason that it is morally bad, it is always because Basso's girlfriend wouldn't like it (not that Garrett thinks it is wrong) or that it would harm the mission. Even on expert it is a matter of professional pride that stops him not moral outrage.

It's the fact that it's on "Expert" which makes fans gravitate it towards being the "true" / "better" way of playing the game, I guess.

And I never even tried to imply it was about moral outrage!

Not killing is explicitly about being a professional thief. And that is again where the whole "ghosting" thing comes into it...it's extrapolated directly from the game's attitude that the more expert thief you are, the less fuss you make.

I don't ghost, personally, as it's not how I like to play the game. But I have a lot of respect for the concept.

[Blue Sky]

I guess I am also always in two minds about whether to play on "Expert" or not, simply in so much as although I like the extra objectives, etc, I do like the option of being able to kill - if necessary, simply because it allows more options, and more freedom of choice.

I mean, I'd rather not kill if I don't have to, but there's something more tense about the idea that if you're caught, you might be able to fight your way out, and not worry about a "mission ends" screen coming up (which is in many ways more restrictive and less realistic...it makes it more obvious this is a game with predefined boundaries).

So I can definitely see both sides to it.

[contrarian]

Perception is Reality. A person who only lived in the "Expert" world would think: Garrett is against killing. Garrett is greedy--he always has to get all the loot. Man those guards are tough--they sure know how to wield a sword and sure are hard to bring down. Wow, they sure can see and hear good too.

A person who only lived in the "Beginner" world would think: Garrett doesn't mind killing. He really doesn't care about money all that much, he only needs a little to get buy. The guards of the city are wimps. Three slices with a sword and they die.

Perception is reality. What does not change is that the same Garrett is there in all 3 modes of difficulty. He looks the same, has the same voice, runs just as fast, he can jump just as far, he isn't any better or worse of a shot with his bow, etc. etc. etc.

A person only exposed to "Beginner" has just as much of a right to say, "Garrett isn't greedy, he just doesn't care about loot." as a person only exposed to "Expert" has a right to say, "Garrett is a master thief who thinks killing is for amatuers."

Neither is right, neither is wrong.

But, and it's a big but, come to my "Normal" world, take a vacation from your fringe world, and see what the real Garrett is like.

[Platinumoxicity]

The story so far in the series has never happened. Garrett is actually asleep and imagined it all. You can see this very clearly in the level in the first game where he steals the car and stops the nuclear missile launch using the magic word. And he is a female alien dinosaur who sells insurance and eats cassette tapes. We can all agree on that right?

I wonder why so many on this forum have such an incorrect view on what the real Garrett is like. It should be plain obvious what the truth is because no opinion is right or wrong. Except what I say because it's not an opinion. I decide what the facts are. And will tell everyone what I decided them to be as loudly and as often as possible.

/contrarianism

[Hypevosa]

Originally Posted by Blue Sky

Absolutely there's no "right" way to play the game, but certainly the games themselves do promote the idea that an expert thief doesn't kill. That idea is absolutely implicit within the games, simply from the fact that if you play the game on Expert difficulty setting, you're not allowed to kill anyone.

Fans extrapolate from that (and the character of Garrett) further, to think of Garrett as a professional thief, with the romantic idea of him breezing into a place, stealing what he came for, and exiting leaving absolutely no trace that he was there; not sighted by anyone.

Obviously the previous games don't support the fan-created "ghosting" playstyle, but there's a chance Thief 4 might...it's a recognised 'achievement' in Deus Ex: Human Revolution, after all.

But at the end of the day, there's nothing wrong with playing the games absolutely how you like. Ghost a mission, or kill everyone in the mission. That's up to you. But certainly the games do promote the idea that an "expert" thief doesn't kill.

Exactly. A real professional doesn't need to murder anyone. Sure, they can, it's easy, but they're never in a situation where they're so compromised or so unprepared where they need to murder anyone. They're aware enough, prepared enough, and skilled enough in the arts of stealth and flight that murder isn't something they need to bother with.

Murder means a body, loud bloody screams, blood to be cleaned up, and is a massive liability and time sink during a mission. The direct consequences suck enough. However, the indirect consequences can be even worse.

A death penalty (likely) if caught by the hammers, revenge by partners, friends, underlings, etc of the now deceased that can range from getting attacked to having them tip off some authority about your next job. When you kill someone you don't just affect them, you affect everyone around them. Anyone who cared about them, had a use for them, or was owed money by them now has reason to make your life very difficult, and that's the last thing you need as an already wanted man.

A master thief doesn't ever need to murder anyone, and certainly doesn't wantonly choose to do so because it's stupid to take all the risks murdering someone entails.

[Yaphy]

Originally Posted by contrarian

Perception is Reality. A person who only lived in the "Expert" world would think: Garrett is against killing. Garrett is greedy--he always has to get all the loot. Man those guards are tough--they sure know how to wield a sword and sure are hard to bring down. Wow, they sure can see and hear good too.

A person who only lived in the "Beginner" world would think: Garrett doesn't mind killing. He really doesn't care about money all that much, he only needs a little to get buy. The guards of the city are wimps. Three slices with a sword and they die.

Perception is reality. What does not change is that the same Garrett is there in all 3 modes of difficulty. He looks the same, has the same voice, runs just as fast, he can jump just as far, he isn't any better or worse of a shot with his bow, etc. etc. etc.

A person only exposed to "Beginner" has just as much of a right to say, "Garrett isn't greedy, he just doesn't care about loot." as a person only exposed to "Expert" has a right to say, "Garrett is a master thief who thinks killing is for amatuers."

Neither is right, neither is wrong.

Well said. That is also the reason why we don't hear of any murders in the cut scenes. Because the developers couldn't possibly know how the player would act. Therefor they can not imply anything when it comes to cut scenes. That is where the misconception of what Garrett would do comes from. Since we cannot see that he killed anyone in the in game cut scenes then many people have reasoned that expert equals Garrett difficulty.

[Rockn-Roll]

I think the only thing we can agree on is that there is still no news on Thief 4...contrarian with his Tarot cards to the contrary. And, from all indications Thi4f is a long way from even having a release date.

I mean...go to the Upcoming Games page of the EM forum which lists the Tomb Raider, Hitman: Absolution, and Thief 4 forum links. The banner image only has Tomb Raider and Hitman images. Why no Thief 4 image?

[Master Taffer]

Originally Posted by contrarian

Perception is Reality.

I'm not going to argue how you play the game; that's your choice as a player. There's no right or wrong way to play the game as long as the mission objectives are not failed. There may be more difficult ways of playing (ghosting, Lytha, etcetera) but they are no more right or wrong than easier methods.

But perception is not reality; that statement is incorrect. Reality is independent of human perception, which is often unreliable and prone to being deceived or other wonky stuff like hallucinations brought on by mental disorders like dementia.

[contrarian]

MASTER TAFFER, as a student of semantics, I must concede that you have a point when referencing Perception is Reality.

A truly accurate statement is "More often than not, perception is reality." My original statement, although not incorrect as you suggest, is more often than not, correct. Of course, one under the influence of drugs or alcohol, diagnosed with mental disorders, or watching David Blane do his thing, is not perceiving reality correctly.

I think you could have cut me a little slack though, seeing we are talking about a fictional video game character, in a fictional setting, played by everyday Joes and Janes who are most likely not hopped up on drugs or suffering from Paranoid schizophrenia.

[Yaphy]

You could argue that perception alters reality. But then we are going down the quantum mechanic road.

[Maleficen]

Contrarian is a thi4f dev trying to get us ready for a thief game that does not include ghosting.

[Master Taffer]

Originally Posted by contrarian

MASTER TAFFER, as a student of semantics, I must concede that you have a point when referencing Perception is Reality.

A truly accurate statement is "More often than not, perception is reality." My original statement, although not incorrect as you suggest, is more often than not, correct. Of course, one under the influence of drugs or alcohol, diagnosed with mental disorders, or watching David Blane do his thing, is not perceiving reality correctly.

I think you could have cut me a little slack though, seeing we are talking about a fictional video game character, in a fictional setting, played by everyday Joes and Janes who are most likely not hopped up on drugs or suffering from Paranoid schizophrenia.

My explanation is also true to your average person of normal mental health.

Example: for everyone, perception and intuition tells us that the world is flat. However, through analytical thinking and investigation we have learned that it is, in fact, round.

I apologize as I realize I'm being a little anal retentive when it comes to this, but it's one of those things that "irks" me when I hear it.

[tarvis79]

I don't think anybody can prove their way is canon, or the "right way." Live and let live. 4 things:
1) Ghosting with quicksaves is lots of fun and not that hard. For me, there's lots of tension, but frustration is averted by saving. (Disclaimer-this is my standard playstyle)
2) Killing everything, saves or no, is lots of fun. It's also freaking easy because Thief AI is retarded (yes, I have done this, and it is not difficult). For me, this is much less tense, since getting caught just means a fight.
3) Iron Thief (ghosting with no saves) is by far the most difficult way to play. Period. I've never done it; the restarts get too frustrating. This says nothing about it being "better," but it's inarguably the most difficult.
4) Whatever you want to do is "right." Don't claim ownership of normalcy, and don't belittle anyone else. Is that so hard?

[tarvis79]

Originally Posted by Maleficen

Contrarian is a thi4f dev trying to get us ready for a thief game that does not include ghosting.

Mind. Blown.

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by Maleficen

Contrarian is a thi4f dev trying to get us ready for a thief game that does not include ghosting.

Then he's doing the worst job ever. All he's managed to do is draw attention to the things that everyone hates because he deliberately promotes those things exclusively.

[Blue Sky]

Originally Posted by Yaphy

You could argue that perception alters reality. But then we are going down the quantum mechanic road.

This is the best thing posted in this thread.