BOSS FIGHTS - All Discussion - plus 4 Boss Fight Methods Hints & Tips *Spoilers*

[auric]

Originally Posted by ricardosamuel1961

In Deus Ex HR the bosses are the same kinds of bosses you'll find in a myriad of other games: there is a cut scene and then you have to defeat the boss, who has some sort of super human weaponry at his disposal. This usually is a chore and adds nothing of value to the game.

Besides, I don't find the bosses in Deus Ex HR particularly challenging. The first boss, for example,

can be defeated easily, simply by throwing canisters at him and typhooning him a couple of times. By this time in the game you should have plenty of praxis points to easily afford installing the typhoon aug.

I would say the canister is the alternative.

Boss 1 - Canisters
Boss 2 - Electrocution
Boss 3 - Turret

There are your alternatives.

Killswitches won't work, cause they don't have 1. When they dun have it, u gotta find other methods.

[EricaLeeVee]

I just really didn't like how we knew little to nothing about these 'bosses' when we fought them. In the original the protagonist had met and talked to the 'bosses' a couple of times beforehand and you had a general understanding of why they fought you and had some sort of relationship with them.


In this game the bosses are merely roadblocks. One of them actually moves the story along but the others are just...there. In a game about story and choice you not only do you not know a thing about these people (though perhaps they were meant to be mysterious by design) but you have no choice but to fight AND kill them.


I'm just lucky that I read the Icarus Effect and have a little more knowledge of these characters, but it still left much to be desired and I hoped that the game would fill in the blanks. Suffice to say it didn't.

[auric]

Originally Posted by Fox89

They have enough non-conflicted people as well. How many soldiers patrolling the hallways were there, whose only goal was to destroy you on sight? At least them with them you always had the choice of, at an absolute minimum: lethal, non-lethal, or leave them alone. Removing two of those three options whilst adding no more, makes boss battles less interesting then dealing with a single normal enemy soldier.

Those r foot soldiers, talking about people who can intelligently talk back.
9/10 of them are conflicted people.

[Fox89]

Originally Posted by auric

Those r foot soldiers, talking about people who can intelligently talk back.
9/10 of them are conflicted people.

Because the bosses intelligently talk back? Only Barrett and Namir ever say a word, and even then it's not exactly Shakespeare. I got vastly more useful plot information from the weapons dealer outside the FEMA facility.

The last boss is interesting enough, but that doesn't count in the 'rubbish boss fight' category as it was done in a vaguely more DX way. You could hack stuff, blow stuff up, use a bit of stealth. Still wasn't perfect but it's nowhere near as objectionable.

[unbeatableDX]

does no one realise you can shoot through the gaps in the wall in the namir fight.

[auric]

Originally Posted by EricaLeeVee

I just really didn't like how we knew little to nothing about these 'bosses' when we fought them. In the original the protagonist had met and talked to the 'bosses' a couple of times beforehand and you had a general understanding of why they fought you and had some sort of relationship with them.


In this game the bosses are merely roadblocks. One of them actually moves the story along but the others are just...there. In a game about story and choice you not only do you not know a thing about these people (though perhaps they were meant to be mysterious by choice) but you have no choice but to fight AND kill them.


I'm just lucky that I read the Icarus Effect and have a little more knowledge on their characters, but it still left much to be desired and I would hope that the game would fill in the blanks. Suffice to say it didn't.

That's the difference between an enemy & an ally turn enemy.

You can't have the same luxury on both sides.

It's like asking, why I know more about a friend who turn bad & join a gang than a group of terrorists who crash a plane.
By ur view shouldn't I know both of them just the same?

I know these 3 bosses well enough without behind the scenes help.
Lawrence Barrett:
A good soldier heavily augmented, taking the frontal attack.
Surprisingly calm, intelligent & well mannered compared to other soldiers, get ticked off when someone beat them to the morgue.

Yelena Fedorova:
If ur good at names, may figure her nationality.
Augmented legs, covert person, highly agile, hit & run, probably mute.
Not much of a type with personal goals, merciless & to the point.

Jaron Namir:
Leader of Belltower & the 3 of them.
Deeply augmented after a severe incident.
if ur good at accents & names, may figure his nationality

Quite loyal, unknown reasons. Agile & quick, keeps his distance

slap Adam's girl & the reason Adam's the way he is now.

[Fox89]

I know these 3 bosses well enough without behind the scenes help.

Yeah, really interesting characters you just listed there...

You want a good boss battle? Go play MGS3 and fight The End. The come back and tell me the Human Revolution ones are good

[auric]

Originally Posted by Fox89

Because the bosses intelligently talk back? Only Barrett and Namir ever say a word, and even then it's not exactly Shakespeare. I got vastly more useful plot information from the weapons dealer outside the FEMA facility.

The last boss is interesting enough, but that doesn't count in the 'rubbish boss fight' category as it was done in a vaguely more DX way. You could hack stuff, blow stuff up, use a bit of stealth. Still wasn't perfect but it's nowhere near as objectionable.

Intelligent people dun need to prove they are.
They're intelligent enough & chose not to speak much, hence they're not conflicted.
Jabbers who aren't conflicted are just talkative, not necessary intelligent

Originally Posted by unbeatableDX

does no one realise you can shoot through the gaps in the wall in the namir fight.

dunno, but didn't need to.

[auric]

Originally Posted by Fox89

Yeah, really interesting characters you just listed there...

You want a good boss battle? Go play MGS3 and fight The End. The come back and tell me the Human Revolution ones are good

Different universe, no point comparing.

So yes, DX:HR bosses are good.
Dun need to be spoon fed to understand someone/something.

Have same discussion on Star Trek boards, people say they're not being explained properly, but I could answer every question of theirs based on mere observations of events, circumstances, past events, body languages, etc. even though most of it may not be planned

There are more ways to tell a tale.

[EricaLeeVee]

Originally Posted by auric

That's the difference between an enemy & an ally turn enemy.

You can't have the same luxury on both sides.

It's like asking, why I know more about a friend who turn bad & join a gang than a group of terrorists who crash a plane.
By ur view shouldn't I know both of them just the same?

I know these 3 bosses well enough without behind the scenes help.
Lawrence Barrett:
A good soldier heavily augmented, taking the frontal attack.
Surprisingly calm, intelligent & well mannered compared to other soldiers, get ticked off when someone beat them to the morgue.

Yelena Fedorova:
If ur good at names, may figure her nationality.
Augmented legs, covert person, highly agile, hit & run, probably mute.
Not much of a type with personal goals, merciless & to the point.

Jaron Namir:
Leader of Belltower & the 3 of them.
Deeply augmented after a severe incident.
if ur good at accents & names, may figure his nationality

Quite loyal, unknown reasons. Agile & quick, keeps his distance

slap Adam's girl & the reason Adam's the way he is now.

Thats...not really what I was saying at all. What you just stated were merely facts about the characters. Very vague facts. Very generic facts that make them generic bad guy characters. They really could have been so much more if we had known some of their reasoning for why they were doing what they were doing or any backstory to them at all. They may have just as well be compared to Metal Gear Solid villains...except those villains were actually interesting to fight and their boss battles were something new and fun to the game that people looked forward to. Some of the time the villains in MGS were fleshed out as well. DXHR villains are, again, roadblocks. Heck, in one part it a supporting character was blatanly saying one of the villains WAS a roadblock. Eliza was saying how she wanted to tell Adam more but she couldn't because 'She' was there. She might as well have said "Sorry Adam the story can't progress unless you get rid of that thing there".

In the original Deus Ex two of the bosses could be seen as 'allies turned enemies' but in truth most of them were just doing what they always were ordered to and you, the protagonist, was the one who changed sides. Walton Simons will always be one of my favorites because you had a couple of good conversations with him and got to know the kind of man he was by reading many emails, seeing many transmissions by him, and even seeing his medical chart.

If you are not going to give the player a choice to kill these bosses in a game about CHOICE then at least make the characters interesting for me.

Originally Posted by Fox89

Yeah, really interesting characters you just listed there...

You want a good boss battle? Go play MGS3 and fight The End. The come back and tell me the Human Revolution ones are good

Thank you!

[auric]

Originally Posted by EricaLeeVee

Thats...not really what I was saying at all. What you just stated were merely facts about the characters. Very vague facts. Very generic facts that make them generic bad guy characters. They really could have been so much more if we had known some of their reasoning for why they were doing what they were doing or any backstory. They may have just as well be compared to Metal Gear Solid villains...except those villains were actually interesting to fight and their boss battles were something new and fun to the game that people looked forward to. DXHR villains are, again, roadblocks. Heck, in one part it a supporting character was blatanly saying one of the villains WAS a roadblock.

That's what u get from frontal encounter & lack of details lying around.
Which indicates they're good at keeping their shoes clean.

People like Anna & Gunther are both nuts leaving tons of stuff around for u to dig up, especially their killphrase.
Why the heck they have it in their pc???

they should format it.

so, DX:HR bosses are smarter than DX:TC bosses
also good at their work.

I don't see any DX:TC bosses do anything worth while but sit behind desks, blab, get thrown into prison by mere non-aug terrorists, come underwater to be blown up, stuck himself in a bubble, ....

EDITED
1 good example, Manderley
he's from DX1, hence we get to read tons about him on hacked PCs DX:HR. cause he's dumb.
That's why JC got the better of him & shot him behind his desk.

[EricaLeeVee]

Originally Posted by auric

That's what u get from frontal encounter & lack of details lying around.
Which indicates they're good at keeping their shoes clean.

People like Anna & Gunther are both nuts leaving tons of stuff around for u to dig up, especially their killphrase.
Why the heck they have it in their pc???

they should format it.

so, DX:HR bosses are smarter than DX:TC bosses
also good at their work.

I don't see any DX:TC bosses do anything worth while but sit behind desks, blab, get thrown into prison by mere non-aug terrorists, come underwater to be blown up, stuck himself in a bubble, ....

Again, not my point, Anna and Gunther were MUCH more fleshed out than these characters. You had a few conversations with them or overheard their conversations and got a good feel for what these characters were and why they wanted to kill JC later. They could have implemented this in DXHR by having accidental 'close encounters' with these bad guys or overhear more conversations by them. The Tyrants were not 'keeping their shoes clean' by any circumstances as I found an email by each and every member of the Tyrants at least once in the game.


...Actually I'm having a really hard time understanding what you are saying at that last part there...??

1 good example, Manderley
he's from DX1, hence we get to read tons about him on hacked PCs DX:HR. cause he's dumb.
That's why JC got the better of him & shot him behind his desk.

Your reasoning is just...I mean Manderley shouldn't even be considered a boss character. Even then you didn't HAVE to do any of that; you didn't have to kill nor confront him.

[auric]

Originally Posted by EricaLeeVee

Again, not my point, Anna and Gunther were MUCH more fleshed out than these characters. You had a few conversations with them or overheard their conversations and got a good feel for what these characters were and why they wanted to kill JC later. They could have implemented this in DXHR by having accidental 'close encounters' with these bad guys or overhear more conversations by them. The Tyrants were not 'keeping their shoes clean' by any circumstances as I found an email by each and every member of the Tyrants at least once in the game.


...Actually I'm having a really hard time understanding what you are saying at that last part there...??

I know ur point & my point is, it won't work here.

You can't know an enemy as well as a friend. Friends like them anyway, some friends are more quiet than enemies.

[Locutus of BORG]

Originally Posted by Lebowski2000

Boss fights? You call it boss fights lol. They are just too easy to be called "bosses".

This. The boss fights require progressively less creative strategies/tactics to deal with as the game goes on because Adam gets so damn powerful while the bosses stay the same. Stealth/Hacker PTs aren't really penalized, since the game gives so much Praxis that you'll almost invariably have at least some combat augs like the Typhoon or whatever saved up for the bosses. There just aren't that many stealth augs actual stealth players would sink points into that would prevent them from being good at combat as well.

OTOH, Hyron is nice because at least its more obstensibly a puzzle than an actual fight... that is, unless you have a laser.

As a noob my complaint isn't so much boss difficulty, but that if boss fights 2-3 had more to them than just your typical arena fight, they'd be more fun, even if they still turned out to be easy as hell. Boss 1 was alright for me - I was at a low enough level and was inept enough at the controls for him to be a good challenge... Come boss 2, she was dead on her first charge (and I was playing a stealth character).

[EricaLeeVee]

Originally Posted by auric

I know ur point & my point is, it won't work here.

You can't know an enemy as well as a friend. Friends like them anyway, some friends are more quiet than enemies.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this then, because I believe EM could have done a MUCH better job of making these into interesting, compelling villains, but they failed to do so in this installment. Maybe next time; because I am certainly not the only one dissatisfied with the bosses (on both a gameplay level and character level).

[auric]

Originally Posted by EricaLeeVee

The Tyrants were not 'keeping their shoes clean' by any circumstances as I found an email by each and every member of the Tyrants at least once in the game.

1 email throughout the game each? So that's what? 3?

& those in DX1, dozens of emails, gossips, conversations, anger towards a vending machine, ...

So, ya. DX:HR are keeping their shoes clean.

DX:HR = 3 dirts
DX:TC = 100 dirts

Your reasoning is just...I mean Manderley shouldn't even be considered a boss character. Even then you didn't HAVE to do any of that; you didn't have to kill nor confront him.

I didn't consider him a boss, I consider him a DX1 character, that's why we get to him more than others in DX:HR.
He leaves tons of trails & claim to be keeping it clean.

[EricaLeeVee]

Originally Posted by auric

1 email throughout the game each? So that's what? 3?

& those in DX1, dozens of emails, gossips, conversations, anger towards a vending machine, ...

So, ya. DX:HR are keeping their shoes clean.

DX:HR = 3 dirts
DX:TC = 100 dirts


I didn't consider him a boss, I consider him a DX1 character, that's why we get to him more than others in DX:HR.
He leaves tons of trails & claim to be keeping it clean.

100 dirts? I said at least one each that doesn't mean it's an accurate count. I am not going to go back in the game just to count emails.

If you don't consider Manderley a boss, why mention him? This is about the depth of the bosses, no one else.

[Fox89]

EricaLeeVee: I'd recommend not continuing this discussion. You're up against somebody who chooses to interpret the fact that the boss characters are not developed in game as evidence of how well they are developed in game. You just can't fight logic like that.

Seriously. I mean, the argument you're dealing with here is akin to something like: "The fact that nobody ever sees Santa Claus coming down the chimney is not evidence that he does not exist. Rather, it is proof that he is a ninja".

[EricaLeeVee]

Originally Posted by Fox89

EricaLeeVee: I'd recommend not continuing this discussion. You're up against somebody who chooses to interpret the fact that the boss characters are not developed in game as evidence of how well they are developed in game. You just can't fight logic like that.

Seriously. I mean, the argument you're dealing with here is akin to something like: "The fact that nobody ever sees Santa Claus coming down the chimney is not evidence that he does not exist. Rather, it is proof that he is a ninja".

Hahaha, yeah I suppose you're right. Funny analogy there.

[doctor_atomic]

Originally Posted by MightySavagE

whine, whine, cry, whine, cry

When you grow up you may learn that your opinion is one tiny, almost inaudible voice in the universe and that other people will probably not agree with you.

[MightySavagE]

Why manderley isnt a boss? A chief of evil UNATCO seems pretty much like a boss. So what he doesnt fight back?

If youre taking the classic conception of boss characters then Barret is moar of a boss than Gunther cause he's more mysterious, more simple-minded (as it seems) and more evil. He also only wants to fight you which fits perfectly in the boss' shoes in the tradition of gaming.

What people was asking was to make the fights themselves more interesting here, not so shooter-oriented. We here, on the other hand, went into "the bosses are too one-dimensional characters" ;D


So, lets finish the original intention of this thread as a tie (or in slight favor of more complex approach) :>



So, we have 3 types of bosses in DXHR.

1. Tyrants (namir, Elena, Barret and some others that werent in the game)
2. Dragon Queen (the fourth boss)
3. Social Bosses, like Zeke or Sandoval

You tend to forgot the third category! THere you go Foxie! You got the complex boss characters you've been asking for. And when it comes to zeke you can kill him or talk his situation through. This category can be even expanded further, with inclusion of minor "bosses" like Haas.

So, as I am saying right from the beginning, you got people who you just cant converse in a meaningful way, like Barrett, and those "more complex", like Zeke or Sandoval.

In DX1 you couldn't talk your way past Gunther could you? In my opinion the only thing they did wrong was making the Barrett and Fedorova fights a little bit dull and straightforward (I found Namir fight very interesting with all those statues and stuff) and Zhao fight a little uninspired.

Some of you say they werent bosses, because they were fairly easy. Well, that may be the point (I didnt have much trouble), but still, many others had and have some pretty big difficulties defeating them, especially Namir.

[JCpie]

Bosses in Deus Ex (1) shouldn't even be called bosses. They're people who can't be killed until a certain point, when you face of with them they're practically normal enemies just with better weapons and augmentations.

[Odysseyalien]

Hold it a minute...let me grab some popcorn.

[MonkeyLungs]

Save grenades for boss fights. Spend 3 points on Typhoon. Kill bosses easily.

My first playthrough was non-lethal, sneaky guy, no Typhoon and the boss fights were harder but none of them took me more than 4 tries on GMDE difficulty.

[MightySavagE]

Originally Posted by JCpie

Bosses in Deus Ex (1) shouldn't even be called bosses. They're people who can't be killed until a certain point, when you face of with them they're practically normal enemies just with better weapons and augmentations.

you're joking, right?



EDIT:

Lol guys, look what I found regarding the peculiar AI in DX game