Game mechanics

[massimilianogoi]

Put here what you want for the mechanics of the game.

For myself, I would like to have the same identical freedom with the ladder as Thief1/Thief Gold/Thief2, and the same drop/throw object as Thief3. just using the right mouse key to drop, and the left mouse key to throw (the key usually eplmoyed as fire, so it's more intuitive).

More: the guards should be put down KOed even in red altert, when you reach to be behind them and blackjack them, especially when it's dark, like in Thief 1/G/2.

[DrTariff]

Well-executed yet subtle animations, blackjacks that actually deal decent damage rather than simply "like being licked by a kitten", and improved physics.

That would enhance the overall mechanics quite nicely.

[Platinumoxicity]

There should be no other restrictions in the game physics other than attaching to ropes and ladders, moving platforms and gravity, that could in any way influence the player's actions outside the player's direct control input. That means no wall-flattening mode, no lock-picking mode, no complex takedown animations. Or alternatively, if there are things that lock you into place, you should be able to immediately interrupt any of those actions with standard control input. In other words, there should be one type of control in the game, and it should never change at any point in the gameplay. When you press forward, you move forward, in every case.

Manipulating objects should be more careful and gameplay-friendly, as opposed to TDS, where handling objects is dangerous because it most likely draws attention. When you hold an object in your hand, pressing the attack-button should throw it directly into the direction you're looking at, and pressing the use-button should place (drop) the object within arm's reach directly in front of you, or when aiming at a spot in the game world geometry, it would place the object quietly in that spot. Even better if when holding down the use-button, a transparent avatar of the object would appear in the game world representing the exact location that the object is going to be placed when you release the button.

Completely dark areas should be pitch black, but there could be a dim light effect in your immediate surroundings so that you could still move comfortably in dark areas. We don't want gameplay to completely triumpth over realism, but we don't want realism inconvenience our gameplay. Also, there could be a shader effect that applies gaussian blur according to the luminosity of areas visible on the screen, and also according to the eye adaptation to brightness. In very dark areas, everything should be blurry in a distance, and also, when youur eyes have adapted to bright light, everything you see in dark areas should be too blurry and dark to see well.

Guards should be able to shout for help, instead of having to run to their friends to get help.

Guards should try to arrest you instead of killing you if you stop when they tell you to, and put away your weapons. Then you could get an extra element of surprise when you suddenly attack or escape when they approach.

[massimilianogoi]

- There should be no other restrictions in the game physics other than attaching to ropes and ladders, moving platforms and gravity, that could in any way influence the player's actions outside the player's direct control input.

Yeah, I want back the freedom of movements of Thief 2.

-That means no wall-flattening mode, no lock-picking mode, no complex takedown animations.

Flattening mode can be.

- Or alternatively, if there are things that lock you into place, you should be able to immediately interrupt any of those actions with standard control input.

No locking in any place, please. This was an handicap of TDS, I was sometime killed or hit when I tried to open some lock, and this scared me and made me frustrated, because my senses had reacted already but the game was stuck on the animation, damn!

- In other words, there should be one type of control in the game, and it should never change at any point in the gameplay. When you press forward, you move forward, in every case.

I agree, apart for swimming, that must be equal to Thief 1/G/2.

- Manipulating objects should be more careful and gameplay-friendly, as opposed to TDS, where handling objects is dangerous because it most likely draws attention.

??? You just couldn't climb walls/ladders... where are the attentions drawed?

- When you hold an object in your hand, pressing the attack-button should throw it directly into the direction you're looking at, and pressing the use-button should place (drop) the object within arm's reach directly in front of you, or when aiming at a spot in the game world geometry, it would place the object quietly in that spot.

This is just what TDS does...

- Even better if when holding down the use-button, a transparent avatar of the object would appear in the game world representing the exact location that the object is going to be placed when you release the button.

Nope, this would add more artificiality to the game, and I want to play as a Thief, not as a cyborg...

- Completely dark areas should be pitch black, but there could be a dim light effect in your immediate surroundings so that you could still move comfortably in dark areas. We don't want gameplay to completely triumpth over realism, but we don't want realism inconvenience our gameplay. Also, there could be a shader effect that applies gaussian blur according to the luminosity of areas visible on the screen, and also according to the eye adaptation to brightness. In very dark areas, everything should be blurry in a distance, and also, when youur eyes have adapted to bright light, everything you see in dark areas should be too blurry and dark to see well.

What lacked in all the games, maybe because of the architectural limitations, was the light reflection from the bodies: a door frame that reflects a light, especially when its tins is bright, can enlight a shadowed area.

- Guards should be able to shout for help, instead of having to run to their friends to get help.

Yeah, I agree. Or having to run if no one responds, or they are too far to be reached with the voice. It's time for the sound recognition, no more mathematic spatial algorhitms that calculates the distance from where a sound was spawned.

- Guards should try to arrest you instead of killing you if you stop when they tell you to, and put away your weapons. Then you could get an extra element of surprise when you suddenly attack or escape when they approach.

Yes! This could add more realism. I've always asked to myself why the various Benny and the other guards tells you "Stop! Put your hands in the air!" and then they stabs you, instead of trying to arrest you... maybe because Garrett didn't put the hands in the air? :-P

[DrTariff]

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

Manipulating objects should be more careful and gameplay-friendly, as opposed to TDS, where handling objects is dangerous because it most likely draws attention.

Also, when potentially dangerous objects such as loaded crates or explosive barrels are thrown at enemies, instead of shoving them a few meters away (like in TDS), realistically, it should knock them over or damage them. They could introduce a proper aiming system for these objects, as well as for detonating items like flashbombs and mines. After all, if Garrett is a skilled archer, are we to assume that his hand-to-eye coordination is top notch as well?

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

Guards should try to arrest you instead of killing you if you stop when they tell you to, and put away your weapons. Then you could get an extra element of surprise when you suddenly attack or escape when they approach.

Si, another poorly thought-out aspect of TDS. Pavelock Prison? They might as well have shown us a cramped rendering of Garrett's afterlife…

[massimilianogoi]

No syntetical system of aiming, please!! I don't want a futuristic game. Use just your skill, playing, and training in some safe locations.

And, ROTFL: that bug of TDS made me laugh alot... Yes, a more realistic hitting system, maybe with a combined ragdoll system, where, if you hit a leg, only that leg has to move, and in lesser part, the parts of the body connected to that leg, in a dynamical way.

[DarkDagger]

I don't mean to be an a** but what's wrong with wall flattering?

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by DarkDagger

I don't mean to be an a** but what's wrong with wall flattering?

My point was not against wall flattening itself, but against the way it's implemented in Splinter Cell and TDS. With modern games it's possible to have dynamic wall flattening that allows your character to automatically flatten against the wall depending on your proximity to the wall itself, interpolating between the animation of walking normally, and walking when leaning to a wall. In older games there's always "press Q to flatten" or something, which locks you into a rail, in other words, changes the control system of your character. It makes the game feel like a game. Even though it's not a major issue, it's an issue that can be fixed.

Originally Posted by massimilianogoi

Flattening mode can be.

I have nothing against flattening. I am against a specific mode that you need to activate for the player character to flatten against a wall, when the entire system can be seamless and dynamic.

Originally Posted by massimilianogoi

No locking in any place, please. This was an handicap of TDS, I was sometime killed or hit when I tried to open some lock, and this scared me and made me frustrated, because my senses had reacted already but the game was stuck on the animation, damn!

That's exactly the problem I have with a wall flattening mode.

Originally Posted by massimilianogoi

??? You just couldn't climb walls/ladders... where are the attentions drawed?

I meant that the way you could handle objects was dangerous because it was almost impossible to set them down without dropping them or making them fall over.

Originally Posted by massimilianogoi

- When you hold an object in your hand, pressing the attack-button should throw it directly into the direction you're looking at, and pressing the use-button should place (drop) the object within arm's reach directly in front of you, or when aiming at a spot in the game world geometry, it would place the object quietly in that spot.

This is just what TDS does...

No it isn't. And that's the problem. In TDS you could not decide the point where you wanted to place the object. You could only decide the compass direction where you could drop the item from waist-height directly in front, and waist-height only. In order to safely drop an item, you would need to find a platform that's exactly waist-height, so that the object would make minimal noise when you drop it and also not fall over. It was impossible to place objects exactly where you wanted in TDS. You couldn't even aim where you wanted to throw objects. All you could decide again was the compass direction where you could horizontally throw the object. You couldn't adjust the pitch of the throw.

Originally Posted by massimilianogoi

- Even better if when holding down the use-button, a transparent avatar of the object would appear in the game world representing the exact location that the object is going to be placed when you release the button.

Nope, this would add more artificiality to the game, and I want to play as a Thief, not as a cyborg...

Yeah, it's not necessary even though it might help. TDP and TMA didn't need it and the object handling was almost perfect. In TDP and TMA you could sometimes accidentally place an object on it's side instead of standing up, but that's about the only problem with the system.

Originally Posted by massimilianogoi

What lacked in all the games, maybe because of the architectural limitations, was the light reflection from the bodies: a door frame that reflects a light, especially when its tins is bright, can enlight a shadowed area.

Real-time indirect lighting takes a lot of GPU resources. I haven't heard of a single game yet that's capable of rendering real-time indirect lighting from dynamic lights. The lights are all precalculated.

[massimilianogoi]

False. The TDP/TMA mode of dropping was flawed: pressing the use key made thorwing the objects, while in TDS was just dropping them, instead of using a specific keyboard key...

- I meant that the way you could handle objects was dangerous because it was almost impossible to set them down without dropping them or making them fall over.

What's wrong with dropping them?

- I have nothing against flattening. I am against a specific mode that you need to activate for the player character to flatten against a wall, when the entire system can be seamless and dynamic.

NO! I REALLY DON'T WANT a bull that glues me every time I approach a wall!

Originally Posted by DrTariff

Si, another poorly thought-out aspect of TDS. Pavelock Prison? They might as well have shown us a cramped rendering of Garrett's afterlife…

What you mean for "cramped rendering of Garrett's afterlife"??

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by massimilianogoi

False. The TDP/TMA mode of dropping was flawed: pressing the use key made thorwing the objects, while in TDS was just dropping them, instead of using a specific keyboard key...

- I meant that the way you could handle objects was dangerous because it was almost impossible to set them down without dropping them or making them fall over.

What's wrong with dropping them?
?

False false. In TDP there was a key for activating objects, using items and throwing junk items. That was usually MB2. There was a separate key for dropping items, usually R. In TDS there was a key for activating objects and dropping junk items, usually MB2. Then there was a key for throwing junk items, usually MB1, same as attack. Then there was yet another key for using items. Your argument about a separate key is made invalid by the fact that it's actually TDS that has that separate key.

The dropping of items... In fact in TDS regardless of what vertical direction you're aiming at when holding an item, you can only drop it directly in front of you, and even if you crouch down, you can't drop it from a lower height than waist height. If you pick up a candlestick to see if it's valuable and it turns out to be junk, you need to be very careful, because if the table you picked it up from is lower than waist-height, instead of being able to place the stick neatly back onto the table, you can only drop it from a considerable height and make lots of noise, especially if it falls over. This can be verified by anyone who owns TDS.

Also, ever tried to throw Orland's glyph seal from the balcony directly to the fireplace downstairs? I sure did try, and failed. Because in addition to not being able to drop items the way the player wants, it's also impossible to aim up or down when throwing things. The weirdest thing again is, that if you throw an object when crouching, you throw it just like standing, from waist height. It looks like the entire object handling system was unfinished and badly tested. They forgot to allow change of pitch in both dropping and throwing, and forgot to make the system compensate for the change of stance.

But of course this wasn't supposed to be an argument thread, but an idea thread. I'm sure nobody here would want to repeat the problems of TDS, and also nobody would like to repeat the discussions of the problems of TDS. Again.

[jtr7]

I really wish TDS fans would get their facts straight instead of continuing to make fools of themselves. The older titles allow you to drop thing quietly with a separate button, and a main objective of Framed in TMA required the player to get to know that button to DROP Hagen's kerchief in the Vault. In fact, that one instance of training has stumped many players who have asked for help about how to drop things. It's in the instruction manual and listed in the keybinds, default "r".

[Maethius]

I enjoy the vast majority of the features, controls, and executions found in Dark Mod. Of course, T2 is the scheme I'm most familiar with, but now that I've gotten used to TDM I really like the object handler and other features.

[jtr7]

Yes.

[DrTariff]

Originally Posted by massimilianogoi

What you mean for "cramped rendering of Garrett's afterlife"??

I would think that after being brutally slashed to death by the City Watch, Garrett's appearance in the afterlife (however small) would have made more sense than waking up in some petite prison protected by a mere handful of dense guards…

[DarkDagger]

I still wonder how you people manage to turn every thread a whining about DS?

[jtr7]

You might wanna delete that post 'cause I don't think you intended to start a flamewar, and I don't think you really want a detailed explanation so you wouldn't have an excuse to wonder ever again. HINT: T4 forum, no T4 news, hopes and wishes for T4 of things we want and do not want, with examples... Should be self-explanatory, and no, no one will stop whining against what they consider to be examples not to follow, including from other games and series and every single Thief title, depending on the topic and the poster. You haven't been around long enough if you don't know that every single element of Thief has been railed against. Not one aspect has been left out. TDS's major changes are just the most unpopular.

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by DarkDagger

I still wonder how you people manage to turn every thread a whining about DS?

Simple. All good ideas have been announced already, so all that's left to do is to downvote all the flaws to oblivion so that mistakes wouldn't be repeated. just kidding

[DarkDagger]

You know what, you are right I don't want to ruin this thread, again. I'll just say I don't agree with you both on some things.

Now for the mechanics of the new game:
Ladder climbing must remade to a whole new level. The one that was in T1 and T2 is too free. You can even turn around and it's not a problem, also I still can't understand when people develop a ladder how can they allow the player to drop off. It's really silly. Imagine you climb a ladder and you drop off to the side. In T3 it's slow it's buggy and I've had some weird experience while climbing. Make it some way so that players don't get bothered while climbing a simple ladder.

Broadhead arrows could use some speedboost. Their ark is strange though. It has to be more linear. We should also be able to recollect them always if not fired at something that breaks them. Fire arrows are fantasy element so I can't complain about them as much but the first time I shoot the damn thing it went above the wanted target.

Dropping objects and bodies will be best performed if we had something like a ghost image thing, that will place the object exactly where you want to.

If there is a rope/vine arrow make it so that you can swing.

When in combat situation please don't repeat the "runningaroundandclickinginthebackoftheguard" that all the 3 games had. Yeah sure we had some sort of combat thing in T1 and T2 but it's playing dumb to try it when you can just run around and it's not well executed (at least it won't be for the new game)

Remove all the blue stuff that was in T3 like arrow paths and selecting objects.

And finally no bunny hoop.

[jtr7]

Yep. Without disagreement, there is no discussion or debate.

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by DarkDagger

Now for the mechanics of the new game:
Ladder climbing must remade to a whole new level. The one that was in T1 and T2 is too free. You can even turn around and it's not a problem, also I still can't understand when people develop a ladder how can they allow the player to drop off. It's really silly. Imagine you climb a ladder and you drop off to the side. In T3 it's slow it's buggy and I've had some weird experience while climbing. Make it some way so that players don't get bothered while climbing a simple ladder.

The ladder climbing should be this: You can climb up and down, and you can look around too, but when you turn past a certain threashold, Garrett hangs on the ladder only by one arm, during which you can't climb up or down, but you can instead look around, or aim at a direction you wish to jump off to. If you approach a ladder from the top while facing forward, you can't get onto the ladder, but you also can't run over the ladder by accident and plummet to your death. Instead when you walk backwards at the ladder you grab onto it. On the bottom it's reversed. You can't accidentally grab the ladder and lock yourself into it when looking away from the ladder, and you need to be facing it to climb it.

I think a system like this would be fine.

[massimilianogoi]

Originally Posted by DrTariff

I would think that after being brutally slashed to death by the City Watch, Garrett's appearance in the afterlife (however small) would have made more sense than waking up in some petite prison protected by a mere handful of dense guards…

This makes sens, yes.

[jtr7]

The one that was in T1 and T2 is too free. You can even turn around and it's not a problem

Did you mean to imply a link? What's the problem with turning around other than there are no hands, arms, torso, heel and toe to switch between, which in real life would create a hesitation and forward lean in the middle of a straight 360 rotation? It also lacks hanging off with one hand and foot and dangling out and away, and lacks hooking a foot and calf or knee between two rungs and hanging upside down. What's most annoying is detaching or falling off too easy, but attached movement is still extremely limited compared to real life, without even getting into gymnastics/acrobatics.

[Hypevosa]

I can turn around 360 degrees on a ladder - and I'm not the most agile person in the world. Garrett pretty much IS (one of if not) the most agile person in his world, and I imagine if I can do it with some work, he can do it without a problem. That and he probably weighs at least 60 lbs less than I do

[massimilianogoi]

lol

[ToMegaTherion]

It isn't even worth discussing whether or not it's physically possible, anyway. Being able to turn around full while on a ladder is a good mechanic. We shouldn't let quibbles about realism get in the way of those.