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Thread: In-game advertisements

  1. #801
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenstar View Post
    I don't think he's saying "don't complain" he's saying "don't overreact".
    A lot of people in this thread are calmly stating they think this is a bad idea. That's fine. My personal viewpoint may differ but calmly putting forward your feelings is constructive and helpful.
    What is ruining your cause are the idiots here who are comparing it to rape etc (there have been a few). Massive overreaction makes this thread look like a joke. It looks like a bunch of children who probably got their parents to buy the game for them and enjoy jumping on the bandwagon and shouting at the top of their lungs.
    You know the old saying "an empty can rattles the most"? Well that rattling is drowning out the sensible people in here.

    And arguments like "They'll lengthen the load times" don't really work unless the load times are actually lengthened. It's a slippery slope fallacy (which is what the camel's nose is based on btw) which completely fails to acknowledge the possibility of a middle ground where they won't lengthen the load times because they realise that that is a stupid idea. Using arguments like that weakens your overall cause.

    Really. This thread would have gotten its point across in a far more acceptable way without the conspiracy theories ("Eidos were testing if we'd accept long load times which is why the first patch shortened the load times") and rape analogies. There are a few good points in here that could be used to build an argument against the advertising but they're lost amongst the frothing rabble.
    thank you for getting my point, ashpolt too.. lets be honest, these ads are hardly noticeable. now, there are arguments to be made against them, I can't think of a couple myself. but, I just couldn't believe it when I saw people posting that ignoring this was no different than ignoring old people getting beaten, or that they felt raped, and that one person was actually going to uninstall the game. the only thing that was missing was a rant about corporate masters and the military industrial complex.

    but not to give the wrong impression, some here, Romeo for one, have made very well reasoned arguments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geobyte View Post
    We shouldn't feed the mythical creature that lives under a bridge. He hasn't yet properly counter-acted any points made in this thread, and he ignores other things he can't come up with an answer to. After his last post it's clear he's only posting here to rile people up even further.

    there's nothing to counteract on my part. this is your hang up. the burden of proof is yours. It's up to you to show where your being harmed, or that ad is affecting game play, or detracting from the quality of the game, or in any way shape or form hurting you. it's not my job to disprove arguments you haven't made. so far, the only thing I've seen is that people think it will lead to more, and that they're personally offended by it. the first is just a game of what if, and the second is just a personal preference or opinion that can't be logically debated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kujako View Post
    Then the ads are failures and may as well be removed since they wont sell product if no one notices.
    at no point was I arguing the effectiveness of the ads. the reason they stay is simple, someone is willing to pay them to keep em.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jd10013 View Post
    the burden of proof is yours. It's up to you to show where your being harmed, or that ad is affecting game play, or detracting from the quality of the game, or in any way shape or form hurting you. it's not my job to disprove arguments you haven't made.
    It is your job if you want to participate in any meaningful debate.
    There have been a lot of good and valid points made as to why many of us don't want ads in their games.
    To some it may indeed be distracting from the game and diminish its quality, others are afraid of what the future may bring if ads become a standard in games, again others oppose them on a purely principle basis and many are simply upset with the way the issue of ads has been handled by SE/Eidos.
    You may be indeed just trolling, or maybe you disagree with those points. Unfortunately you have not done much more than simply disregard any argument that has been brought up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Zoido View Post
    It is your job if you want to participate in any meaningful debate.
    There have been a lot of good and valid points made as to why many of us don't want ads in their games.

    you whole premise is flawed as the ads don't appear in the game, they only show up in loading screens. but all the "valid points" boil down to I don't like it, it bothers me, and so on. you can't really debate that. and it's fine that people don't like it, I'm not criticizing that. but I've yet to hear how this negatively impacts the game, or even effects it. if these things were appearing in the game, or rewarding you for using, say, a weapon with a McDonald's logo on it instead of one without one, or your pre-order bonus was an out of place in game lightsaber, then there would be a legitimate cause for concern. you'd have a situation where game play was being driven by marketing. but that's not the case here. this ad is even less obtrusive than the full screen AMD ad you get when loading the game. and with that, you could rightfully argue that EM teaming up with AMD like that could shortchange Intel users. but nobody seems to mind that ad. and there are plenty of them in games. I'm consistent, none of them bother me. it's the people who are against the SW ad that seem to pick and choose which advertising they like and which the don't. for all their principals, some advertising doesn't bother them in the least bit.

    and personally, I couldn't care less whether or not you or anybody else thinks I'm a troll.
    Last edited by jd10013; 09-20-2011 at 03:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ View Post
    Are only complainers about ads allowed in your thread?
    No, I was just using your own logic against you.
    Last edited by Geobyte; 09-20-2011 at 07:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jd10013 View Post
    you whole premise is flawed as the ads don't appear in the game, they only show up in loading screens.
    Come on. Now you're really splitting hairs. Do we really start a debate now wether the loading screens are a part of the game or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by jd10013 View Post
    but all the "valid points" boil down to I don't like it, it bothers me, and so on. you can't really debate that. and it's fine that people don't like it, I'm not criticizing that. but I've yet to hear how this negatively impacts the game, or even effects it.
    If a person is bothered or offended by the ads (for any of the many reasons named here) it in fact does affect the game experience for that very person. And most of the people here never said or at least meant to say more than that. What this discussion realy boils down to is where to draw the line, step forward and say "up to here and no further". Which of course is something everyone must decide for himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by jd10013 View Post
    If these things were appearing in the game, or rewarding you for using, say, a weapon with a McDonald's logo on it instead of one without one, or your pre-order bonus was an out of place in game lightsaber, then there would be a legitimate cause for concern. you'd have a situation where game play was being driven by marketing. but that's not the case here.
    So this is where you draw the line. I agree with you that something like this is unlikely to happen, but you have to admit that this is in part due to the fact that there are people that already get angry when a tiny banner-ad appears in a loadingscreen.

    Quote Originally Posted by jd10013 View Post
    this ad is even less obtrusive than the full screen AMD ad you get when loading the game. and with that, you could rightfully argue that EM teaming up with AMD like that could shortchange Intel users.
    I don't know but I'm sure that there was people that got already angry when that stuff started (can' realy remember myself, when developers started partnerships with Intel, Nvidia, AMD and ATI) I personally didn't draw the line there. As to the second part about shortchanging Intel Users: I guess we all agree that it is in Eidos' own interest to keep the game running well on the products of all of the manufacturers no matter who they partered with.

    Quote Originally Posted by jd10013 View Post
    but nobody seems to mind that ad. and there are plenty of them in games. I'm consistent, none of them bother me.it's the people who are against the SW ad that seem to pick and choose which advertising they like and which the don't. for all their principals, some advertising doesn't bother them in the least bit.
    As I said before: It's a matter of where to draw the line. And the reasons to draw it here are manifold. I myself am not against ads per se. I'm somewhat in the camp of those saying that ads not fitting to the game at all have no place during playtime of the game, which includes the loading screens for me as I see them in between levels and upon loading savegames which clearly is during playtime (while I am playing the game). I'm fine with them being at start up or shut down of the game.

    And as opposed to you I'd also be fine with actual passive in-game advertising if it fits the setting and time of the gameworld, like seeing spots before the picus news or the cars outside having actual real brandnames on them or even billboards showing the coke/pepsi of 2027, if it would help to either lower the end price for us as customers or ensure a higher quality standart at the same price.

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    I registered here just now to tell you I asked Steam for a refund for this game because of the ads. They said no. Yes, this is a real issue for me. Are we allowed to talk about the ad-removing modification here, since that mod kills revenue? I can't find a mod thread.

    I was even motivated to buy DNF because of a political act to show everyone that it's ok to make old games (the actual game was bad though.... still having buyers remorse)

    EDIT: I will not buy Thief 4, even though I am a huge Thief fan.
    Last edited by revoltinghuman; 09-20-2011 at 08:20 PM. Reason: im stupid and hasty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kujako View Post
    It has already happened in other games. Wipeout HD comes to mind as a recent example.
    Did u compare with countries without the ads?

    maybe that's the normal length loading time for that game (with or without ads)

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewHorizon View Post
    "They made expansions & we buy the game
    They made DLCs & we buy the game
    They made loading screen Ads ..."


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    Quote Originally Posted by auric View Post
    Did u compare with countries without the ads?

    maybe that's the normal length loading time for that game (with or without ads)
    There are side-by-side videos for WipeOut HD (embedding disabled, so just links):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX4f9zts6JM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ex8HTYfnI1E

    A few constants in the version with ads:
    - The ad video always finishes playing
    - The game is always done "loading" the exact moment the ad is done
    - The loading bar starts fast, then suddenly slows or even freezes before resuming at a set (but slower) pace

    Is Deus Ex there yet? Well, no.

    ...not yet, that is.

    I'm not trying to fall for a sort of slippery slope here, but the fact is that the devs suddenly activated ads in a full-price game weeks after launch. Maybe they will force more intrusive ads into the game a few days/weeks from now, maybe they won't. I genuinely don't know - and that is what's making me frown the most.

    If Eidos just came out and made an official statement like "Yes, the game does and will have small banner ads on the loading screen, so deal with it, but we promise that there won't be any more surprises like video ads or intrusive in-actual-gameplay ads!", then I could mostly forgive and forget. But as far as I know, no such reassurance has come, so I'm left with my epic frowny face.

    Either way, the delayed ad-trigger (keep in mind that these banner ads weren't hastily patched in - the ad code apparently has been part of the game since day one, meaning that they deliberately waited for weeks before pushing the button) was enough of a dick move to make me stay away from future Eidos/Square-Enix Day One full-price purchases. "Product may turn into adware without proper warning weeks after release" doesn't instill confidence, so I'll just wait a few weeks/months next time before maybe getting a used copy from GameStop or a Platinum/Classic/GotY edition or whatever.

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    So is Eidos/SE just going to ignore this issue and hope it dies, they should either:

    Say the ads are staying (so I can cross any future DLC off my wish list)

    or

    Apologize for pissing off a lot people and wasting their money and remove the ads

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    or apologise & still do what they're doing

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    Yes, but just give any statement on the issue.

    Unfortunately (barring the possibility that they themselves don't know what to do yet), they just don't seem to care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by revoltinghuman View Post
    Are we allowed to talk about the ad-removing modification here, since that mod kills revenue? I can't find a mod thread.
    Oh goodie, someone put out a mod that illustrates exactly why modding and in-game advertising cannot co-exist. I'll say this: I'm not going to uninstall the game over an ad, but if they're willing to kill DXHR modding over this then I will become ing irate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kujako View Post
    Which only encourages them to make it more difficult to block. Only thing that will encourage them to not put ads in the game in the first place is to not buy it. Too late on this title, but I'll not be fooled again. No more Eidos for me.
    1. Square Enix, not Eidos. I cannot understand why people waste their energy by getting mad at the wrong thing. If you're enraged enough to stop buying from a company, then you're enraged enough to get the right one.

    2. Square Enix has a choice here: They can be happy reaching the customers they reach, and not further antagonize the people who've put fixes in place. Or they can get into an arms race and lose a few customers in exchange for a few eyeballs on ads. If they're just playing with this model, they'll back off and the working fixes out there will continue to work. If they're serious about it, they'll come up with some excuse to lock down the game's files and shove these things down your throat. I will be very interested to see what changes are included in the next few updates.

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    I'm just curious, what do you think about this GTA4 mod?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zM_6-7rtqM

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    Quote Originally Posted by KenTWOu View Post
    I'm just curious, what do you think about this GTA4 mod?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zM_6-7rtqM
    I think it's a neat idea, but no one is going to give money to a publisher for ad space in an easily-moddable game. First off, how many people are even seeing the ad? The publisher doesn't know and the client doesn't know, so what's the going rate for ad space that may or may not exist?

    Even after you figure this out, there's the problem of control. Modders can put the ad banners anywhere they want, and the advertiser can't do anything about it. Maybe someone is filling all of the Walgreens stores to the brim with giant dildos, or putting a "Sawdust 'n Ruminants" delivery truck outside a TGIF. At some point, the ad people are going to look at it and say "We're paying money to get ourselves sued" and the whole thing will come down.

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    I loaded up the game for the first time in a week today and reloaded a game at least 15 times to see if any ads showed up. Suprisingly not...but without Eidos commenting on the matter Im sure they will just be back when the next big DVD/BR release is near.

    It would be really nice to know if this will be happening again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AEREC View Post
    I loaded up the game for the first time in a week today and reloaded a game at least 15 times to see if any ads showed up. Suprisingly not...but without Eidos commenting on the matter Im sure they will just be back when the next big DVD/BR release is near.

    It would be really nice to know if this will be happening again.
    Well it won't be happening again. At least for me... They won't bet getting a dime of my hard earned money again. If I want ads I'll surf the net.

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    We’ve been closely watching the debate that’s been going on over the inclusion of advertising in Deus Ex. It’s clear there are strong views, but primarily lots of people have been asking for more information on the issue – so hopefully that’s something I can help with.

    We’re aware that this is an emotive topic and so this is something we’ve been very, very careful about implementing – because what we absolutely don’t want to do is break immersion with the game itself.

    In-game advertising is one of the revenue streams which games companies can use to supplement game sales and revenues generated in this way can genuinely help with the cost of development.

    To explain a little about how the process works: As part of the deal we have with our advertising partner, we’re able to reject any ads which we don’t feel are of interest for the game or its player base. In fact, that’s why they’ve only started appearing recently – because we rejected everything else up until the recent ad on the loading screen. The timing there was purely coincidental with the release of a PC patch, by the way.

    As to how we deal with ads in the future, we’ve noted the passion that some people feel about the issue, and that better up-front communication would be appreciated.

    Full disclosure: We have just approved a new advert which will appear in the loading screen of the game soon. We haven’t cleared anything to run on the in-game billboards as yet (that functionality does exist in the game). Ads will appear in Deus Ex in the future and our aim is to try to keep them as relevant as possible.

    For other future games we’ll definitely bear in mind all of your comments on this topic – but meanwhile please keep telling us your thoughts on what we do.

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    [EDIT] Edited my post to quote SlyRebirth's post in full, so it doesn't get lost on the previous page:

    Quote Originally Posted by SlyRebirth View Post
    We’ve been closely watching the debate that’s been going on over the inclusion of advertising in Deus Ex. It’s clear there are strong views, but primarily lots of people have been asking for more information on the issue – so hopefully that’s something I can help with.

    We’re aware that this is an emotive topic and so this is something we’ve been very, very careful about implementing – because what we absolutely don’t want to do is break immersion with the game itself.

    In-game advertising is one of the revenue streams which games companies can use to supplement game sales and revenues generated in this way can genuinely help with the cost of development.

    To explain a little about how the process works: As part of the deal we have with our advertising partner, we’re able to reject any ads which we don’t feel are of interest for the game or its player base. In fact, that’s why they’ve only started appearing recently – because we rejected everything else up until the recent ad on the loading screen. The timing there was purely coincidental with the release of a PC patch, by the way.

    As to how we deal with ads in the future, we’ve noted the passion that some people feel about the issue, and that better up-front communication would be appreciated.

    Full disclosure: We have just approved a new advert which will appear in the loading screen of the game soon. We haven’t cleared anything to run on the in-game billboards as yet (that functionality does exist in the game). Ads will appear in Deus Ex in the future and our aim is to try to keep them as relevant as possible.

    For other future games we’ll definitely bear in mind all of your comments on this topic – but meanwhile please keep telling us your thoughts on what we do.
    OK, here's a question:

    Quote Originally Posted by SlyRebirth View Post
    In-game advertising is one of the revenue streams which games companies can use to supplement game sales and revenues generated in this way can genuinely help with the cost of development.
    How will that extra revenue - generated from the customer - be used to benefit the customer in a real sense, i.e. not just a general "it'll lead to better games"? Will it mean free DLC, for instance?

    I appreciate how straightforward you're being in stating outright that there will be further ads in the future. That kind of no-nonsense talk would've been useful on here right from the start, and it's something I hope to see continue. So I'll be straightforward in my response: there's got to be both give and take here. We've paid the full retail price for the game - that transaction's balanced out, it's done, both sides have got and given what's expected. Now you're making further profit off us in a way that is (in a subjective manner and to different degrees to different people, I accept,) damaging to the game experience which people have already paid for, and yet you're (seemingly) not offering us anything in return for that. Like I said, give and take - it's how the world works, and it's absolutely how business works. You've done the taking, now what are you giving in return?
    "It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashpolt View Post
    How will that extra revenue - generated from the customer - be used to benefit the customer in a real sense, i.e. not just a general "it'll lead to better games"? Will it mean free DLC, for instance?
    The Missing Link DLC will not be made available for free. I'm afraid I can't be more detailed than to say the total revenue of a game is likely to be a factor in any decision to give future titles the green light.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashpolt View Post
    You've done the taking, now what are you giving in return?
    This is one of the really useful questions that we've noted, although I can't predict at this point how that feedback might be used, and - honestly - it's not likely to be possible to give any answer in relation to Deus Ex: Human Revolution.

    But for future reference, it's interesting to try and understand where the line is (while acknowledging that it's probably slightly different for everybody).

    What (realistically) would you look for in return? How would you judge what is fair value in relation to the number or regularity of ads? At what point do ads break immersion with the game - loading screens or in-game billboards, or both? How important is it that information about ads is released in advance of the ability to buy (or pre-order) the game? And so on.

    The more constructive feedback we can get on those kinds of issues, the better.
    Last edited by SlyRebirth; 10-05-2011 at 06:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SlyRebirth View Post
    The Missing Link DLC will not be made available for free. I'm afraid I can't be more detailed than to say the total revenue of a game will be a key factor in any decision to give future titles the green light.
    This is fair enough, the Missing Link DLC was clearly planned before the ads were implemented, I don't expect the pricing plans for that to change at this point. A piece of future DLC for free would be a welcome gesture, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by SlyRebirth View Post
    But for future reference, it's interesting to try and understand where the line is (while acknowledging that it's probably slightly different for everybody).

    What (realistically) would you look for in return? How would you judge what is fair value in relation to the number or regularity of ads? At what point do ads break immersion with the game - loading screens or in-game billboards, or both? How important is it that information about ads is released in advance of the ability to buy (or pre-order) the game? And so on.

    The more constructive feedback we can get on those kinds of issues, the better.
    Pure subjectivity coming up:

    For me, it's not even about the immersion really, it's about the principle of the thing - why should I have to put up with ads in a game that I've paid full retail price for, and which has no online component, so doesn't have ongoing server costs to maintain? I've given you the full expected price for this, so why are you asking more of me and not giving anything in return? On a one-off basis, this would be irritating but ultimately forgivable: unfortunately for consumers (and for you guys, in terms of how this is perceived) this industry has shown itself time and again to be very susceptible to the slippery slope: the consumers give an inch and the industry takes a mile. DLC is the prime example of this: what started as an (arguably) decent idea of giving customers extra content for a little extra cash has turned into something else, and now in many games content is clearly being cut purely for the purposes of extra monetisation. Even DXHR has suffered from this with its pre-order bonuses: sure, we (the consumers) may not have paid extra for that content in terms of money (though it is now also available for money) but we've paid in having to put down a pre-order on a game before we'd had a chance to play it, and in having to put down our pre-order with specific (potentially undesirable) retailers, at least for those in the US.

    So if we take the slippery slope into account, can we really draw a line knowing that wherever the consumers draw it, the industry will take it further? If we accept small (arguably) non-intrusive ads like these in full price single player games, how long before we're seeing half-screen ads when loading? How long until we're video ads on loading screens? How long until we're seeing artificially increased loading times to allow those video ads to play out? How long until characters are asking me if I'd like to buy a delicious, refreshing can of Pepsi to restore my HP? That, for me, is why I'm drawing the line here: this in itself may not be too bad, but it's bad enough, and I'm definitely unwilling to let things go any further - at least as far as I, a single virtually powerless consumer, have any say in this anyway.

    As for what a reasonable and realistic return for the consumers would be? I stand by my suggestion of free DLC - to be fair, other companies do this without in-game ads (thanks, CD Projekt!) so there's no reason SE / EM can't do it here. Releasing the SDK would also be nice, and would make good business sense too - more mods = more people playing / replaying = more loading screens = more ad revenue. Obviously that'd only really help the PC players, though, so you'd have to come up with something for the console players as well....and we're back to DLC. Or at least XBL avatar / Playstation Home items, though I'm not sure how popular they'd be. But ultimately, it's for you guys to decide quite how much you value your customers, and how much you're willing to treat them simply as cash cows. You've got to find the balance.
    "It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong."

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    Thank you very much for being candid and straightforward with us, SlyRebirth. I'll take you at your word that the decision to activate ads after the reviews had been written and millions had been sold was for the benefit of consumers. I'm still sticking by what I posted earlier, though, for however little it's worth; if there are still advertisements plopped on every load screen when The Missing Link comes out, I'm not buying it. If I'd have known that advertisements would be implemented in the unartful fashion that they so far have been, I would not have bought DXHR.

    Put the advertisements on billboards, on benches, on Picus news scrolls (but please not all at once). Have Eliza and Lazarus do live-reads. Do something other than plastering it up during the parts of the game that were the least pleasing to begin with. Load screens are a necessary evil, and I can accept that perhaps in-game ads are becoming another necessary evil, but there's no reason to combine the two when there are more creative ways to go about it.
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