View Poll Results: Who should play Lara in the 3rd movie? (pics @ bottom of OP)

Voters
163. You may not vote on this poll
  • Alison Carrol

    19 11.66%
  • Camilla Luddington

    91 55.83%
  • Ellen Page

    9 5.52%
  • Gemma Arterton

    30 18.40%
  • Hayley Atwell

    12 7.36%
  • Kaya Scodelario

    5 3.07%
  • Lyndsey Fonseca

    14 8.59%
  • Natalie Portman

    11 6.75%
  • Nina Dobrev

    8 4.91%
  • Olivia Thirlby

    5 3.07%
  • Olivia Wilde

    17 10.43%
  • Summer Glau

    8 4.91%
  • Kate Beckinsale

    14 8.59%
  • Jennifer Lawrence

    15 9.20%
  • Emma Watson

    13 7.98%
  • None of the above - I want a feature length CGI movie, a la Turning Point

    3 1.84%
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Thread: Third TR film discussion thread

  1. #1376
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSUSMC9 View Post
    I am thinking more of the 2nd installment when I say that. I know movies majority of them will have some romance involved but seeing "Lara" in a love scene especially with who just throw me off. At that time Lara was pretty emotionless and didn't develop relationships with anyone. (I'm glad that now has changed though)
    I am hoping to see even more of Lara's humanity explored through her emotional depth and complexity, among that seeing her have human desires. Like everybody else And to re-emphasize, having desire does NOT compromise one's strength, integrity, class, independence, "toughness", or what ever other attribute you'd care to characterize.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSUSMC9 View Post
    Also when she dropped her towel in front of her butler that didn't fit the Lara I thought I had grown to know. Albeit she's a bad ass with a IDGAF attitude, that move came off a bit slutty and she's far from that in my book.
    Lara is not "slutty", but she isn't a prude either. Looking back at her past fashion sensibilities, she's quite sensual and sexy. Which is not a bad thing. So from my take on Lara's personality as we've seen in the games, the towel drop scene is quite in character with her. To be clear, it wasn't out of some vanity that she was "showing off", but rather the opposite. She's comfortable with her body and sexuality so simply doesn't give a damn. Or as you put it, that IDGAF attitude which is part of where her confident swagger comes from

    Conversely where that same scene gets it SO wrong is seeing how averse Lara is to wearing a dress. This is punctuated at the end when the butler drops the trey upon seeing her in that dress. The shocked expression conveying the joke; "ohhh hahaaaaaa, look at that, it's funny because Lara would neeeeeeever do that".

    Of course we know that Lara does wear beautiful and extravagant dresses. This is part of the appeal of her. That even while being strong, powerful, and adventurous, she still fully embraces her femininity. Lara does not see this as a "weakness", that having a soft side in no way contradicts or compromises her harder edge. Not only is Lara sporty, rugged, and athletic, but also smart, stylish, and sophisticated. It's these layers of contrast to her personality that is essential to what sets her apart from most other female gaming protagonists. And I dearly hope this is an attribute which does not get lost in translation in the new reboot Lara, as well as being more correctly interpreted in the new movie which like the game is starting over.

    With that said; I do accept the vision we had in the 2013 game. It fits as telling a story of a young woman just starting out and yet to truly find herself. To say nothing of being violently thrown into a struggle for survival, relying on the bare minimum of necessities to get through her ordeal.

    But now that we're past that, where Lara can have access to a supply of provisions again, and continuing her journey of self discovery and personal growth, I think we should be seeing her move forward in developing her identity and self expression.

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    Last edited by adobeARTIST; 11-08-2014 at 10:31 AM.
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    my view as well. now lara has to find her inner self. she will find it in rise, if not in the third installment. or another book.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurre View Post
    That's a good point, but even so she was supposed to be a rich aristocrat in the old days and that never really showed in the films.
    I beg to differ. There's AJ's aloof mannerism, plus large parts of the first film featured her mansion filled with the most expensive high tech equipment and people working for her at said mansion. Can't get much more "rich aristocrat" than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurre View Post
    For years I wondered why there are skulls on the wardrobe doors in the Legend manor, until I discovered that it was a reference to the Jolie film: that skull is on Jolies belt buckle. And that to me is really a sign as to how they got her character dead wrong in those films: I mean: skull jewelry? She is supposed to be a high society scientist lady, not a biker chick!
    Au contraire, the skull belt buckle nicely ties in with the usage of skulls in the classic games.

    What you did here is simply pointing out Lara's innate contradictive character. One the one hand she's this high society lady as you said, and on the other hand she's this tough "biker chick". Lara manages to balance well between both.

    Say what you will about the plot or the acting, but you can't say that the film makers were "dead wrong" about Lara as a character in this regard. They did a descent job of capturing the essence Lara.

    Quote Originally Posted by WinterSoldier View Post
    She did smoke cigars and ride a motorcycle in the first game...
    Ha!

    Quote Originally Posted by TSUSMC9 View Post
    Also when she dropped her towel in front of her butler that didn't fit the Lara I thought I had grown to know. Albeit she's a bad ass with a IDGAF attitude, that move came off a bit slutty and she's far from that in my book.
    Lara dropping her towel after a shower doesn't make her "slutty" in my book.

    It's not like she flashed her boobs inside a shopping mall just for the sake of "showing off her hotness" or anything; she did it in the privacy of her own house. If you can't drop a towel in your own house, where on earth can you?

    Moreover, she did it in front of her butler. How many historical movies out there haven't had a scene in which the master got out of the bath being naked and their servants were in the room at the time (and often even dressed their masters)?

    IMO if you find that part of the movie "slutty", it says more about your prudishness (no offence) than it does about Lara as a character. Lara has had no problem teasing the viewer with her body prior to the film, so I don't see how it contradicts her character in any way.

    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    Lara is not "slutty", but she isn't a prude either. Looking back at her past fashion sensibilities, she's quite sensual and sexy. Which is not a bad thing. So from my take on Lara's personality as we've seen in the games, the towel drop scene is quite in character with her.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    Conversely where that same scene gets it SO wrong is seeing how averse Lara is to wearing a dress. This is punctuated at the end when the butler drops the trey upon seeing her in that dress. The shocked expression conveying the joke; "ohhh hahaaaaaa, look at that, it's funny because Lara would neeeeeeever do that".
    I have to disagree with you there. To me that scene was to show Hillary (and the world) that Lara can very well pull off the "modest, feminine, high class lady" look. In the games prior to the film, we haven't seen Lara in that kind of dress, and only in outfits that portrays the "tough biker chick" side of her. So to me, Hillary's shock actually worked very well, because he -- nor the audience -- haven't seen that side of Lara before until that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    Of course we know that Lara does wear beautiful and extravagant dresses.
    Not in games prior to the film.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post


    I have to disagree with you there. To me that scene was to show Hillary (and the world) that Lara can very well pull off the "modest, feminine, high class lady" look.
    Of course they were showing how Lara can be feminine and high society. That much is correct.


    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    In the games prior to the film, we haven't seen Lara in that kind of dress, and only in outfits that portrays the "tough biker chick" side of her. So to me, Hillary's shock actually worked very well, because he -- nor the audience -- haven't seen that side of Lara before until that point.



    Not in games prior to the film.
    While Legend was after the movies (or at least after the first movie) TR3 with its Opera House level was before the movies. So again, Hillary's reaction implying that this was "out of character" is wrong.

    The only thing I would argue (to play devil's advocate) is that the dress they select is quite tame, modest, and bland. And Lara that we know would attire herself in something far more exquisite, elegant, and designed to accentuate her features in a more provocative (but again not slutty) fashion than that
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    Lara wasn't seen in a dress in TR3 She was, however, seen in a slinky black dress in the Opera scene in TR:Chronicles prior to the Rome levels. TRC came out before the first film, I believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    While Legend was after the movies (or at least after the first movie) TR3 with its Opera House level was before the movies. So again, Hillary's reaction implying that this was "out of character" is wrong.
    No, Hillary's reaction was not "wrong", because the opera dress was part of the job. Lara needed to be in that dress to fit in with the opera crowd; it was simply part of her mission. She couldn't have exactly walked into a fancy opera wearing a tank-top and shorts, now could she?

    Hillary was trying to make Lara wear something more modest, feminine, high-class in her free time, because he only knew her as being in "kick-ass chick attire". That is why his reaction was one of shock. It makes sense.

    And to that extend, also your Legend example would fall flat, even IF the game was released prior to the film.

    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    The only thing I would argue (to play devil's advocate) is that the dress they select is quite tame, modest, and bland. And Lara that we know would attire herself in something far more exquisite, elegant, and designed to accentuate her features in a more provocative (but again not slutty) fashion than that
    That was the whole point of the scene - to show that Lara can pull of the "modest, feminine, high-class" look; to show that there is another side to Lara than just the kick-ass, provocative side. Even though we mostly know her for the latter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post

    Conversely where that same scene gets it SO wrong is seeing how averse Lara is to wearing a dress. This is punctuated at the end when the butler drops the trey upon seeing her in that dress. The shocked expression conveying the joke; "ohhh hahaaaaaa, look at that, it's funny because Lara would neeeeeeever do that".

    That's because she is. Whenever there were talks about fancy things, Lara was never impressed. She was in dresses only when she had to be, haven't you noticed that? Besides, even when she was at home, she was never wearing skirts or something (and let me tell you how good does it feel to be wearing a skirt on a hot day, especially at home where you don't have to care about your underwear being seen if you accidentally cross your legs).

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    Are people really believing that even when seeing Lara in fancy gowns (on two occasions no less) that she's only doing so under duress and with complete disdain? Yeah I get that those two mission scenes, the dresses are necessary attire to blend in with her surroundings. She's taking a practical approach to the scenario, rather than going against the grain.

    But where is it suggested that Lara wasn't feeling perfectly comfortable in the setting and at ease with wearing something more fashionable over functional? What in all that has people thinking, "Oh just look at her discomfort; she's totally resentful that she had to get all girly" ??

    It really seems to me that Lara is diversified not just because she has to be, but because she can be and wants to be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    But where is it suggested that Lara wasn't feeling perfectly comfortable in the setting and at ease with wearing something more fashionable over functional? What in all that has people thinking, "Oh just look at her discomfort; she's totally resentful that she had to get all girly" ??
    I remember seeing some Legend story board art - that didn't make it into the game, thank friggin god - were she would throw away her heels and other things from the Japan dress outfit and the intention was to make it clear that she showed disdain towards that girly stuff...

    Completely misguided if you ask me, and possibly inspired by the Jolie film.

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    ^^^ Well, this may count as a double post, but...

    She smoked cigars and rode motorcycles. She was meant to be 100% badass in those first few games, no girly stuff allowed. And we never got to see her outside of an action environment until after those 2 movies were out. At that time, her being portrayed as not wanting to be girly seems pretty accurate to me. Nowadays? No. Back then? Yes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WinterSoldier View Post
    ^^^ Well, this may count as a double post, but...

    She smoked cigars and rode motorcycles. She was meant to be 100% badass in those first few games, no girly stuff allowed. And we never got to see her outside of an action environment until after those 2 movies were out. At that time, her being portrayed as not wanting to be girly seems pretty accurate to me. Nowadays? No. Back then? Yes.
    Just because someone rides motorcycles and smokes cigars, doesn't mean they're "100% badass". By that I mean someone can be badass (NOT dismissing this), but that's not the sole defining trait of their character.

    People are complex creatures. Strong people can be insecure, gentle people can be courageous, mean people can be charitable, funny people can be serious, stoic people can be loving... well I can go on but you get the idea. Seeing only one side does not mean that's the only side to a person.

    And this is much the case with Lara. She's rugged and adventurous, but that doesn't make her incapable of being refined and sophisticated. I've said this before and must say again; what makes Lara distinguished from most other female action protagonists is that there's sides to her besides just the action image.

    Good character development is always multi-dimensional. The writer should always find ways to give insight into the character that there's more than just what we see on the surface.
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    I guess it's not an incorrect observation though that until Legend Lara was pretty much a male character in a woman's body. Not uncommon for action heroines in the 90's. I'm just glad we're moving past that... Or at least I hope we do...

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    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    Just because someone rides motorcycles and smokes cigars, doesn't mean they're "100% badass". By that I mean someone can be badass (NOT dismissing this), but that's not the sole defining trait of their character.

    People are complex creatures. Strong people can be insecure, gentle people can be courageous, mean people can be charitable, funny people can be serious, stoic people can be loving... well I can go on but you get the idea. Seeing only one side does not mean that's the only side to a person.

    And this is much the case with Lara. She's rugged and adventurous, but that doesn't make her incapable of being refined and sophisticated. I've said this before and must say again; what makes Lara distinguished from most other female action protagonists is that there's sides to her besides just the action image.

    Good character development is always multi-dimensional. The writer should always find ways to give insight into the character that there's more than just what we see on the surface.
    I agree 100%. Again, I'm talking about the Lara Croft of back then. In those days very few video game characters were fleshed out and given much depth. The medium wasn't as evolved as it is today. Games for the most part were very simple in terms of story and characters, unless it was an RPG. Things like a well thought out plot and thought out characters just weren't seen as something you needed. Not by every dev and game company, anyways. The a handful of games came out that were tremendous successes (FF7, MGS1, for example) and it seems like suddenly story and characters became something studios wanted to put more attention into.

    Bit off subject, but not: Look at James Bond. He had the same problem there for awhile. He just was badass. He had no real motivation or character depth other than it was his job to be badass. And for audiences at that time, it was enough. Audiences grow up, mediums evolve, and things change.
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    Clearly there is more being read into my comment of Lara dropping her towel in the movie. If you had read what I said, then you would of realized that I'm saying the act of her doing so comes off as a bit slutty but that she in fact is not slutty in my book. I understand that doing such a thing isn't horrendous but being that I was maybe 12 at the time it just seemed really out of character for Lara. For the actress that played her it did not seem so out of character. Lara is indeed a bold and the least from prude. But she's also a well to do put together person. So yes, I don't see Lara freely roaming her home or not in the nude for a butler whom she's grown up with as some sort of authority to her seeing her in that state. What was present in other movies is irrelevant to how I myself at the time seen Lara Croft as a person. What I am saying is, Lara isn't shamed of who she is and the clothing she has sported is rather sexual but not so revealing that nothing is left to the imagination. The way that I portray her is that she is a very confident yet reserved person but not afraid to be daring with everything that she does. Can I say that dropping a towel fits in that category? Not really. Regardless my opinion on an almost decade old movie is just that, it's my opinion. I never said Lara was slutty but in some way that scene could portray Lara that way looking at the movie as a whole. No disrespect but maybe you should reread what I said in a whole before commenting because my issue is with the people behind the movie and not actually Lara herself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    Are people really believing that even when seeing Lara in fancy gowns (on two occasions no less) that she's only doing so under duress and with complete disdain?
    Who said anything about "duress" or "complete disdain"? You're arguing against a position that none of us took.

    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    (on two occasions no less)
    One of which is irrelevant, since Legend came out after the film.

    Yeah I get that those two mission scenes, the dresses are necessary attire to blend in with her surroundings. She's taking a practical approach to the scenario, rather than going against the grain.
    Glad we're in agreement on this.

    But where is it suggested that Lara wasn't feeling perfectly comfortable in the setting and at ease with wearing something more fashionable over functional?
    Where was it suggested that she was feeling perfectly comfortable? You're only speculating about her "feelings" here, nothing more.

    What in all that has people thinking, "Oh just look at her discomfort; she's totally resentful that she had to get all girly" ??
    "Resentful"? Again, you're arguing against a position none of us took.

    I can dress up in a clowns suit for a children's birthday party and not feel resentful, yet not be inclined to wear a clowns suit around the house in my leisure time.

    It really seems to me that Lara is diversified not just because she has to be, but because she can be and wants to be.
    If she truly didn't want to be in that flowery dress and a hat, she wouldn't have worn it, simple. Hillary didn't have that much power over Lara. So that is not really an argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by WinterSoldier View Post
    ^^^ Well, this may count as a double post, but...

    She smoked cigars and rode motorcycles. She was meant to be 100% badass in those first few games, no girly stuff allowed. And we never got to see her outside of an action environment until after those 2 movies were out. At that time, her being portrayed as not wanting to be girly seems pretty accurate to me. Nowadays? No. Back then? Yes.
    I'd argue that we did see Lara in a non-action environment already since the first games - Lara's mansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    She's rugged and adventurous, but that doesn't make her incapable of being refined and sophisticated.
    Sure, but it also doesn't mean that Lara sporting that flowery dress and hat wasn't out of character for her.

    Being able to be two (or more) things doesn't have to mean that one cannot be shocked to see a side of someone they haven't seen before because up until that point they've only seen the "bad-ass chick" side.

    You're really looking for an inconsistency that just isn't there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurre View Post
    I guess it's not an incorrect observation though that until Legend Lara was pretty much a male character in a woman's body. Not uncommon for action heroines in the 90's. I'm just glad we're moving past that... Or at least I hope we do...
    I'm not sure that is indeed an incorrect observation, nor what it has to do with Lara's outfits. Old Lara by no means was unfamiliar with feminine attire, if that is what is being implied.

    Quote Originally Posted by WinterSoldier View Post
    I agree 100%. Again, I'm talking about the Lara Croft of back then. In those days very few video game characters were fleshed out and given much depth. The medium wasn't as evolved as it is today. Games for the most part were very simple in terms of story and characters, unless it was an RPG. Things like a well thought out plot and thought out characters just weren't seen as something you needed. Not by every dev and game company, anyways. The a handful of games came out that were tremendous successes (FF7, MGS1, for example) and it seems like suddenly story and characters became something studios wanted to put more attention into.

    Bit off subject, but not: Look at James Bond. He had the same problem there for awhile. He just was badass. He had no real motivation or character depth other than it was his job to be badass. And for audiences at that time, it was enough. Audiences grow up, mediums evolve, and things change.
    While in some parts I agree, I have to say that it isn't as straight-forward as "simple plots used to be enough for people but not anymore". I would more say that some audiences want more in-depth plots in some movies/games.

    There are still plenty of movies/games being made that have a simple "bad-ass" plot that is being enjoyed by many. Not all works of art need to be Shakespeare to be enjoyable, heh.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSUSMC9 View Post
    Clearly there is more being read into my comment of Lara dropping her towel in the movie. If you had read what I said, then you would of realized that I'm saying the act of her doing so comes off as a bit slutty but that she in fact is not slutty in my book
    I have a feeling that it is you who has been reading more into people's comments, because I haven't seen anyone interpret your previous post as you declaring Lara as a "slut".

    I myself have only argued against the notion that dropping her towel in the privacy of her own home in front of her servant is something to be considered (or "coming across" or however we want to phrase it) as "slutty".

    I understand that doing such a thing isn't horrendous but being that I was maybe 12 at the time it just seemed really out of character for Lara.
    I don't understand what does age have to do with anything? Are you saying that when you were 12 you thought that move came across as "slutty", but at your current age you now think different?

    For the actress that played her it did not seem so out of character. Lara is indeed a bold and the least from prude. But she's also a well to do put together person. So yes, I don't see Lara freely roaming her home or not in the nude for a butler whom she's grown up with as some sort of authority to her seeing her in that state.
    She wasn't "freely roaming her home in the nude", though. It was after she took a shower; she was getting dressed. So there were perhaps 2 options she had - drop her towel and get her clothes on with Hillary just standing there, or first asking Hillary to turn around / leave the room. I would argue that Lara being the confident woman she is and having that, as you pointed out yourself, IDGAF attitude, it really doesn't seem to be out of character for Lara to just drop the towel and getting dressed and just not caring about what Hillary thinks of it.

    What was present in other movies is irrelevant to how I myself at the time seen Lara Croft as a person. What I am saying is, Lara isn't shamed of who she is and the clothing she has sported is rather sexual but not so revealing that nothing is left to the imagination.
    Right, and Lara didn't go trotting around in the nude in public, where she wears those sexy (I wouldn't call it "sexual" - lingerie is sexual; shorts and a tank-top aren't) clothing.

    The way that I portray her is that she is a very confident yet reserved person but not afraid to be daring with everything that she does. Can I say that dropping a towel fits in that category? Not really.
    I wouldn't necessarily classify dropping a towel as "daring", though. That implies that Lara would have a fear of being nude. I don't think she is afraid and was doing something "daring" by dropping her towel. Again, I ascribe it more to Lara's IDGAF attitude; something that simple comes natural to her, not that she is afraid of people's reaction.

    Regardless my opinion on an almost decade old movie is just that, it's my opinion. I never said Lara was slutty but in some way that scene could portray Lara that way looking at the movie as a whole. No disrespect but maybe you should reread what I said in a whole before commenting because my issue is with the people behind the movie and not actually Lara herself.
    I myself did read your whole comment before I commented. So again, to me it was clear that you weren't labelling Lara a "slut". That isn't an issue at all, please don't misunderstand people's reactions as being angry or anything. We're merely discussing -- as you pointed out -- opinions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Driber View Post
    Who said anything about "duress" or "complete disdain"? You're arguing against a position that none of us took.
    Actually Ivana does assert that Lara is averse to wearing dresses (in an earlier reply to one of my posts), despite that we've all seen that she does. So it was then followed that she does so only out of necessity, but is still averse to it.

    I just don't see any indications in her mannerism of those scenes that she despised what she "had" to wear. Sure it fit the scenario but even so Lara acts in being perfectly as comfortable in dresses as she is in her hiking shorts or jeans. I would submit that she likes that line of fashion as juch as she does her adventure wear, and it's as much a part of her character.

    This all comes back to the original point; the debate of whether Lara in gowns is "out of character" for her. I say it is NOT
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    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    But where is it suggested that Lara wasn't feeling perfectly comfortable in the setting and at ease with wearing something more fashionable over functional?

    Where is it suggested that she is?

    I remember that in TRL Lara said before going to Japan: 'Ill need to find something to wear, though.' From my point of view, it seemed like Lara isn't really used to wearing fancy dresses and I believe it's a person's choice whether they want to wear something or not.

    However, I see that there is no point in this debate because we really have not enough material (and I'm excluding movies here) for this. I mean, a mission or two and one sentence really cannot show us what is Lara's view on wearing dresses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adobeARTIST View Post
    Actually Ivana does assert that Lara is averse to wearing dresses (in an earlier reply to one of my posts), despite that we've all seen that she does. So it was then followed that she does so only out of necessity, but is still averse to it.
    Nope, you were still arguing against a position that none of us took.

    Being "uncomfortable" (Ivana's words) and having "duress" and "complete disdain" (your strawman argument) are two different things.

    I just don't see any indications in her mannerism of those scenes that she despised what she "had" to wear. Sure it fit the scenario but even so Lara acts in being perfectly as comfortable in dresses as she is in her hiking shorts or jeans. I would submit that she likes that line of fashion as juch as she does her adventure wear, and it's as much a part of her character.
    Oh but of course Lara would not show being uncomfortable with a dress that she had to wear for a mission. The confidence she expressed was part of the job. That doesn't mean she enjoyed it and would wear dresses at home in her leisure time. So again, you can't really use this as proof that Hillary's reaction was inconsistent.

    This all comes back to the original point; the debate of whether Lara in gowns is "out of character" for her. I say it is NOT
    Well, you're free to believe whatever you want, of course, but if everything you provide as "proof" merely rests on personal interpretation and assumptions, you can't exactly expect us to be swayed by your arguments if the official film states otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivana KC View Post
    Where is it suggested that she is?
    Exactly. Nowhere.

    However, I see that there is no point in this debate because we really have not enough material (and I'm excluding movies here) for this. I mean, a mission or two and one sentence really cannot show us what is Lara's view on wearing dresses.
    I don't necessarily hold the films as official canon to the games, but for the sake of the argument (and playing devil's advocate) we cannot avoid including the film, since AA's whole argument is contingent on the film (i.e. Hillary's reaction).

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