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[singularity]

Originally Posted by MaxxQ1

The difference between DX and what I understand about the highlighting in DX:HR is that in DX, you had to be right in front of the object before it becomes highlighted. This was true of every single pick-uppable object in the game, as well as newspapers, datacubes, computers, locks, doors, bodies, and anything else that could be interacted with.

OTOH, my understanding is that by activating the strength aug, everything that can be picked up using the aug gets highlighted, regardless of it's distance from you. When I walk into a room in *any* game, I don't want everything to start glowing like a big ass neon sign, screaming "Pick me up!"

What's the point of experimenting/exploring if everything's already pointed out to you?

I can see how this could be a serious problem, and honestly don't want them to include this either. But, if you look at the screenshot we have of a "glowing object" (the only one I've seen thus far), the hackable object is right infront of the player and relatively close.
http://dxhr.nanoaugur.net/dx3-screenshot54.jpg

As for the descriptions of the room highlighting with the strength aug activated, if this turns out to be true, then I can see problems. The first being the notion that (especially with higher levels of strength aug) the entire room could be highlighted, which would not only look horrible but also be quite distracting.
The second is similar to what Mindmute was talking about earlier. I'm all for there being visual representations that give the player access to more info (i.e. a health guage, ammo counter, indication of a climbable ledge, etc) -- after all, it isn't real life, and the player needs a way to be reminded of the "rules" of this constructed world -- where they can go, what is going on, etc. In a game like DX, however, I think the rules should be learned by the player, and there should only be as many "reminders" as necessary.

For example -- after up-grading my strength aug to level 3, I might make a whole new save and experiment for an hour seeing what new items I can pick, what I can do that I couldn't before, etc (the same as I might experiment if I had ACTUALLY gotten robotic arms grafted to my body and didn't know their limitations).
Or, if I had just upgraded to level 2, got in a fire fight, and had to run to an object, thinking I could pick it up or move it for cover, but because I didn't know the limitations of my aug, found that I couldn't. I would then be forced to improvise on the spot, resulting in a very tense, and potentially rewarding situation, where my ability to think fast made up for my lack of knowlege of my limitations.

The two above situations are ones that I think many a DX player would enjoy, as they embrace some of the tennants of the original DX (and it's design philosophy). However, having everything usable highlight within 30 feet with the push of a button would render the two above scenarios moot.

I'm ok with highlighting -- but I want it to be not too dissimilar from the original DX -- you have to look at the object and it has to be within 4 feet of you. We could even compromise by saying that when you look at an object this way, the game will tell you in it's highlight box if you have the strength required to move it, etc before you try to (so long as it's handled in a way that isn't cluttered -- maybe color code the highlights).

Just my 2 cents.

[motsm]

Originally Posted by Wilks

Yeah, I read your post and I understand your position. I think your position is arbitrary and basically wrong, hence my post.

What exactly is wrong with my alternative suggestion of visual crosshair feedback? It remains completely functional without being so ridiculously intrusive. I can't see a single thing arbitrary and wrong about it from any players perspective but those wanting all of their options quite literally glowing with angelic auroras.

[tartarus_sauce]

I just don't get the complaints about outlined objects. Isn't that the future? Anyone here used google goggles? Same essential principle. I think some players need to stop thinking of this feature as "hand holding" and start thinking of it as a tool that's consistent with the world that the devs are creating.

Here I'm thinking about that sequence from Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence where Batou's first person perspective was featured, displaying the targeting info for two hand grenades he needed to shoot, or telling him where to aim for his big jump when he infilitrated the floating gynoid factory. It's no more handholding than using the Google Maps system on your smartphone to get directions to a restaurant.

If you're so obsessed with expoloration and creativity that you want to have to use your strength augs on every single object in a level to see if you can pick them up, you need to get a life. Seriously.

[Wilks]

Originally Posted by motsm

What exactly is wrong with my alternative suggestion of visual crosshair feedback? It remains completely functional without being so ridiculously intrusive. I can't see a single thing arbitrary and wrong about it from any players perspective but those wanting all of their options quite literally glowing with angelic auroras.

Nothing's wrong with it, never said anything was. I said that there is similarly nothing wrong with the system described in the preview. Then I pointed out the reasons as to why I didn't think there were worthwhile distinctions between your proposed system and the one being used. This is what I thought was arbitrary.

Seriously, if they implemented your system, I wouldn't care. That would be perfectly fine. I just also don't care if they keep the system they have in place. I'm far more upset about other features, and while I can respect the perspective of dudes like Frank who see this as indicative of the larger design philosophy at work, I'd rather not criticize based on speculation. I'm far more angry about the bad gameplay elements I know are present.

[MaxxQ1]

Originally Posted by tartarus_sauce

If you're so obsessed with expoloration and creativity that you want to have to use your strength augs on every single object in a level to see if you can pick them up, you need to get a life. Seriously.

Gotta love how folks just don't *want* to understand. The above quote is pretty much on the same line as "All you h8erz just want DX1 with prettier graphics."

I don't mind highlighting objects to see if I can interact with them, as long as I'm within a few (game) feet of the object, and I happen to be looking at it. That's exactly what DX did, and it was a subtle highlight. After a little while of playing DX for the first time, most people are able to figure out just by looking at an object whether they can pick it up or not - small metal crates, TNT crates, wooden crates, cardboard boxes, etc. could be readily identified, even from far away, without the need to highlight.

You also find that certain crates/containers are *not* liftable, but you can push them. These also become quickly indentifiable, and just a glance from across the room or area, with no highlighting, can tell the player that these can't be picked up, but they can be pushed. Adding the strength aug finally allows one to pick up those too-heavy containers, or couches, armchairs, etc.

DX:HR apparently highlights every interactable object (that can be picked up/carried) in an area as soon as you walk into the area - at least if you have the strength aug activated. Don't you think that'll look a bit busy? All these crates and copiers and whatnot all glowing. And the glow ain't exactly subtle, if that highlight around the computer we've seen in that screenshot is any indication.

Of course, that may be why there aren't quite as many interactable objects in DX:HR as there was in DX - all the highlighting/outlining must make the screen look like the Vegas strip at night.

Even ten years on, game tech hasn't changed enough for them to have completely different designs/models/textures for every single object in the game. That means that once you see a copier and realize you can pick it up and use it as cover, you can pretty much be assured that any other copier you find that looks like that first one will be able to be picked up and used in some way.

There's no reason to highlight/outline every damn object in every damn area you go to in every damn level of the game, all the way through the entire damn game, every damn time you fire up the damn strength aug. Damn!

I should "get a life?" Because I actually want to use the gray matter between my ears and think about how I'm going to go about a given situation, instead of having it handed to me like I'm a 1-year-old sitting in a high-chair being spoon-fed? Sorry, I'll take thinking over drooling any day.

[singularity]

Originally Posted by tartarus_sauce

I just don't get the complaints about outlined objects. Isn't that the future? Anyone here used google goggles? Same essential principle. I think some players need to stop thinking of this feature as "hand holding" and start thinking of it as a tool that's consistent with the world that the devs are creating.

Here I'm thinking about that sequence from Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence where Batou's first person perspective was featured, displaying the targeting info for two hand grenades he needed to shoot, or telling him where to aim for his big jump when he infilitrated the floating gynoid factory. It's no more handholding than using the Google Maps system on your smartphone to get directions to a restaurant.

If you're so obsessed with expoloration and creativity that you want to have to use your strength augs on every single object in a level to see if you can pick them up, you need to get a life. Seriously.

I think you're missing something here. The arguement isn't "is this plausable" -- it most certianly is. The arguement is "would highlighting everything movable be a good design decision for DX3"

The current state of the arguement is that those for it state that the player needs feedback in order to make informed decisions within any game, and the highlight system is simply another form of feedback (like an ammo-counter or health bar onscreen -- furthermore, gameplay without the highlighted items could lead to unnecessarily frustrating scenarios.

Those who oppose this highlighting claim that it may be distracting and overly "hand-holding," removing some of the problem-solving and experimentation gameplay elements that DX has been known for in the past.

Many of us, it seems (myself included), support a happy medium, however -- similar to the original DX (and many other RPGs today) in which interactive and usable objects are highlighted once a player is within several "in-game" feet of them, allowing for both player feed back, while not being overly obtrusive and cluttering to the player.

[Cronstintein]

I don't think it's hand holding, just kinda ugly. I prefer minimal huds and minimal highlighting in general. Take another look at that link, there are items on the surface to the left of the hacking terminal (with the large Press Me X from 20' away, hrmph) all lovingly surrounded in orange.
Not a huge deal but not something I would have chosen.

I don't think these are distance based since in the other screen shot the gun on the ground is pretty far away and still orange.

[WildcatPhoenix]

The highlighting is ugly, yes, but I can see its purpose (especially if the designers hope to incorporate more unique world items than Big Crate, Medium Crate, Little Crate).

Why not make it a temporary system? In other words, make the highlight portion of the strength aug function like a sonar "ping" in a submarine, a quick burst that washes over the screen to temporarily point out objects that can be lifted. But don't leave it there on the screen the entire time the aug is active.

[Jerion]

I understand it's purpose: If the are lots and lots of doodads in the levels and only some are useable, then there needs to be a quick way to distinguish between those that are interactive and those that are not. The implementation might be dislikable but the role it plays is understandable, even necessary.

[Fluffis]

Originally Posted by Jerion

I understand it's purpose: If the are lots and lots of doodads in the levels and only some are useable, then there needs to be a quick way to distinguish between those that are interactive and those that are not. The implementation might be dislikable but the role it plays is understandable, even necessary.

I've got a nice little solution for that: Make them all (or, at least, most) useable.

[Pinky_Powers]

Originally Posted by Fluffis

I've got a nice little solution for that: Make them all (or, at least, most) useable.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes!

I was truly disheartened when we found out there would be fewer physics objects in HR than we had in DX.

Honestly, after Half-Life 2, Oblivion and Crysis, I thought the industry was heading in the right direction in terms of world interaction and immersive simulation.

[TrickyVein]

Not to mention all of the various accoutrement scattered around everywhere in FO3. After seeing some vids of FNV, rooms look empty. It's a bad way to go. All of that junk really helps pull you into the environment - kicking tin cans around, bumping stuff off of shelves, etc.

[xsamitt]

EM really needs to at the very least make this an option for the not so smart gamer.Highlighting things really feels like I have ADD or some such inability to take the time to explore the world properly.It's going to feel like a true console game if they keep this aspect to the game for sure.
EM please listen to us just this once?

[WildcatPhoenix]

Originally Posted by Pinky_Powers

Honestly, after Half-Life 2, Oblivion and Crysis, I thought the industry was heading in the right direction in terms of world interaction and immersive simulation.

It was pretty jaw-dropping the first time I played Half-Life 2 and discovered I could pick up the individual shards of glass from broken beer bottles.

Imagine using your strength augmentation to turn any ordinary, household object into a weapon. Like beating a guy down with a broom stick (hey, contextual takedowns!) or a phone book, Jason Bourne style.

[Pinky_Powers]

Originally Posted by WildcatPhoenix

It was pretty jaw-dropping the first time I played Half-Life 2 and discovered I could pick up the individual shards of glass from broken beer bottles.

Imagine using your strength augmentation to turn any ordinary, household object into a weapon. Like beating a guy down with a broom stick (hey, contextual takedowns!) or a phone book, Jason Bourne style.

It would be freakin' amazing.

Imagine being able to pick up a random object, turning on your strength Aug, and throwing it at someone's head, rendering them unconscious.

[FrankCSIS]

More interractivity is a given solution, but I think it was clear early on that the physics would not be as developped, so I'm not "disapointed" in that area. Although of course it's hard to fathom a stepback in evolution, I suppose ressources were spent elsewhere.

I also understand the need to identify objects which can be used within the rest of the art. I just don't see how one button making everything glow is a necessary evil, when games have always found more subtle solutions to deal with this, solutions that did not immediately suggest, at a glance, what the player was supposed to do in order to advance.

Tartar, if you push your own logic to its limits, which is what one must always do to see if his reasoning stands, what we would have is a game that plays itself, also known as a movie. I say this not to exagerate, but because you bring up examples which suggest as much.

As for it being an example of the future, it does not paint a bright one indeed. I think of my aunt, an elementary school teacher, who has to deal with color codes for everything now. She can't tell the kids to bring their english binder for the third period, but instead has to remind them to bring the yellow binder. Do you see how perverse this is, if ever so subtle? Thankfully, there is technology out there complex enough to force them to reason in other ways, but this color code, it's sad and pittiful. And I'm not saying things were better in my time, really, because my education is laughable compared to my grandfather's, which was probably around when education in this country was at its peak. Before him it wasn't so great, and after him we saw the birth of color codes, or similar features, anyway.

[Ashpolt]

Originally Posted by WildcatPhoenix

It was pretty jaw-dropping the first time I played Half-Life 2 and discovered I could pick up the individual shards of glass from broken beer bottles.

Imagine using your strength augmentation to turn any ordinary, household object into a weapon. Like beating a guy down with a broom stick (hey, contextual takedowns!) or a phone book, Jason Bourne style.

...And if you could do this in DXHR, you wouldn't need an outline to show you which objects were interactive. That's (part of) the problem with the outlines: by highlighting objects you can interact this, it heavily implies that the majority of items are not interactive.

[-=fox=-]

Originally Posted by Ashpolt

by highlighting objects you can interact this, it heavily implies that the majority of items are not interactive.

Exactly. Not only is it unwanted handholding for many, it actively works against the illusion that you are playing in a credible world. Instead it highlights how limited your possibilities really are. It threatens said illusion at least as much as the 3rd person view does. Both are quite counterproductive, IMHO. Add to that some invisible borders and you sure as hell have a recipe for disaster [Note to the angry internet men: no, this hasn't been announced, hinted at or rumoured about. Yet.]!

[Abram730]

Originally Posted by Mindmute

I was afraid of this and it shows that sometimes being optimistic doesn't help, does it?

I strongly dislike this type of feedback and if turning the strength aug on outlines from a distance everything you can use it on, it will seriously cheapen exploration by creating "oh I see something I can move other there" moments.

It'll feel to me that instead of giving me tools and allowing me to use my creativity on what to do with them, that they pre-planned all my creative moments. It even cheapens for me the otherwise interesting feature of using random objects as improvised cover...

options
<gameplay tab>
[x] highlight useful objects

everybody is happy this way.

I'd like to add that I like the info cards in 3D space that I've seen so far... I really liked that in Dead Space.
I found it much better then overlays.

[Mindmute]

Originally Posted by Abram730

options
<gameplay tab>
[x] highlight useful objects

everybody is happy this way.

Yup, that'd work fine for me, but they haven't been too keen on making that sort of compromise so far.
Even if it were just a function of the eye aug, that you could buy and upgrade with skillpoints, I'd be happy.

[subtlesnake]

Originally Posted by -=fox=-

Exactly. Not only is it unwanted handholding for many, it actively works against the illusion that you are playing in a credible world. Instead it highlights how limited your possibilities really are. It threatens said illusion at least as much as the 3rd person view does. Both are quite counterproductive, IMHO. Add to that some invisible borders and you sure as hell have a recipe for disaster [Note to the angry internet men: no, this hasn't been announced, hinted at or rumoured about. Yet.]!

Not if there is a reason you can't interact with everything in the environment, i.e some objects are currently too heavy to lift. If there are objects within your weight range that you arbitrarily can't pick up/move etc. then that's a different thing entirely. It will be very disappointing if the latter is the case.

[Fluffis]

Originally Posted by subtlesnake

Not if there is a reason you can't interact with everything in the environment, i.e some objects are currently too heavy to lift. If there are objects within your weight range that you arbitrarily can't pick up/move etc. then that's a different thing entirely. It will be very disappointing if the latter is the case.

Not that I know, of course, but the info so far seems to indicate (unless I've missed something) the latter case. Unfortunately.

[Cronstintein]

Originally Posted by Jerion

I understand it's purpose: If the are lots and lots of doodads in the levels and only some are useable, then there needs to be a quick way to distinguish between those that are interactive and those that are not. The implementation might be dislikable but the role it plays is understandable, even necessary.

I agree, many people would probably appreciate not having to click on everything to see if they can pick it up. It just ...looks...ugly
Maybe if it wasn't orange, I dunno. Or only when you mouse over something, but perma-highlighted? Kinda gross.


EDIT
That still doesn't excuse the giant "PRESS X HERE TO HACK!" I mean really, is that necessary? In the opening map/tutorial sure, everywhere else? Please no. I think in this day and age we can recognize an electronic device. Keypads/computers are commonplace enough that I don't think we need giant arrows pointing them out :/
And hopefully I can remember what button activates things by not having recent head trauma. Does each enemy have a thing over his head saying, "Press trigger here"? No. We don't need it on computers either.

I would also enjoy if it didn't say "Hacking level 3 required" or what-have-you. Just be punishingly difficult and make the player log-off well before he finishes the hack. If he's not careful he sets off an alarm, otherwise just gets a lesson in needing proper skills. (This would require hack difficulties making sense: police station" lv2. Secret underground government bunker? Lv5.) This adds an element of danger and tension to when you start a hack rather than: Player looks at terminal level. Player scoffs. Player either hacks or walks away.
Anyway not everyone would probably agree with me but that's my opinion on the matter.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Irate Iguana

It doesn't simply highlight physics objects. It highlights what you can interact with. It tells you specifically "this is what you can use, don't bother looking around for something else". In DX the system would let you know "Dude, there are a lot of boxes in this room". In HR the system will tell you "Dude, you can totally use the third box on the right for something.*wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*". That's the difference. And as an addendum, the highlighting in DX also spoiled several things and should have been improved.

Yeah I want to pick up the coffee machine and throw it at someones head! Also I want to bash open the soda machine and steal all the lemon lime.

Originally Posted by Wilks

Otherwise, activating it was a mistake. No one just randomly turns on augmentations (especially in a game where merely activating them saps energy).

Yeah actually they would. I know I will just to see what can and can't be used.

Originally Posted by Wilks

The game obviously isn't going to allow interaction with every single piece of the environment.

Yeah it isn't and this is really a step backwards for the franchise.

Originally Posted by FrankCSIS

Plants were also highlighted in DX. Other than re-arranging the office, do you seriously think the devs highlighted them to suggest we use them as cover?

Plants where suppose to be used to distract guards. Although almost no one used this.

[-=fox=-]

Even if your engine doesn't allow for a game world with numerous interactable objects, there's not need for highlighting because after the first few minutes (or tutorials) the player will intuitively know what is likely to be interactive and what is likely there for decorative reasons only. I think DX1 did it pretty good and it boggles my mind how a modern game can be more limited in that regard than its 11 year old predecessor.