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[MaxxQ1]

Just got the new PC Gamer in the mail today and there's a short 2 -page spread about the police station level.

Maybe some (or all) of this stuff has already been mentioned elsewhere here, but there were a few new (to me) points of interest mentioned (my own impressions in italics):

During the run-and-gun portion

- Mentioned the previously talked-about part where Adam picks up a copier and uses it as portable cover. What I hadn't read before was that the copier, as well as other objects around the room were outlined, but apparently only after the strength aug is activated. Meh... not sure if I like this kind of handholding.

- Adam goes down another floor, finds a cop taking his own cover, and changes ammo to an explosive round, which he shoots at the wall behind the covered cop. This takes out the cop, and also tosses around other cops caught in the blast. This actually has some interesting potential.

- Adam then switches to a non-lethal gun. All that's said about it is that it tosses targets around, but won't kill them.

During the social run-through

- Talking to Wayne, Adams old buddy, we find out that they were both ordered to shoot an augmented kid. Adam refused and Wayne complied. Wayne's upset because his career took a nose-dive after that. Convo choices are "crush", "absolve", or "plead". Adam goes with "absolve", and Wayne apparently is visibly in need of that sort of thing.

- It's mentioned that for demo purposes, this bit was simplified, and that there are augs available that monitor heartbeat and sweat levels that Adam can use to make a decision on how to treat/talk to somebody. This also sounds interesting.

Stealth run-through

- As mentioned before, there's a dumpster that Adam can move to get over the fence. He then climbs up to the roof using the fire escape, only to find a locked door. His hacking skill isn't high enough, but he has enough skill points to boost his cranial slot (you can select individual body parts (I assume ones that are augmented) to upgrade), to make him smart enough to hack the door lock. Maybe the author of the piece was simplifying things, but adding skill points to your head makes you smarter?

- When Adam uses what is referred to by the author as a "wall-hack" aug (shows the location of everyone in the station), everybody within neck-snapping range is outlined. Again with the hand-holding...

- Adam takes out a door guard, then uses the body to gain access, as the door only opens in the presence of a recognized guard, alive or not. Anyone want to bet that this will be a third-person cutscene, like the takedowns?

- After getting through the door, Adam then searches the body and finds a PDA with the morgue access code on it. One improvement over DX - not all PDA's are just lying on the street waiting to be found. The PDA on the bathroom floor of The Hive notwithstanding.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by MaxxQ1

- As mentioned before, there's a dumpster that Adam can move to get over the fence. He then climbs up to the roof using the fire escape, only to find a locked door. His hacking skill isn't high enough, but he has enough skill points to boost his cranial slot (you can select individual body parts (I assume ones that are augmented) to upgrade), to make him smart enough to hack the door lock. Maybe the author of the piece was simplifying things, but adding skill points to your head makes you smarter?

That's actually pretty *** cool. Sounds like the skill system is way more in depth then we had at first suspected.

[KSingh77]

Outline for a third person takedown......

Really EM?

At least gives the option to turn it off.

[JCpie]

Originally Posted by KSingh77

Outline for a third person takedown......

Really EM?

At least gives the option to turn it off.

Did you mean 'At least give the option to turn it off', or 'At least it gives the option to turn it off?'

[Ninjerk]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

That's actually pretty *** cool. Sounds like the skill system is way more in depth then we had at first suspected.

Sweat levels and heartbeat? I like it.

[Gaunt88]

Yes, the conversation system sounds promising.

*picks "crush"* *Wayne breaks down into tears* +25 rengade points "Goddamnit..."

[Kodaemon]

*picks crush*

[Mindmute]

Originally Posted by MaxxQ1

Mentioned the previously talked-about part where Adam picks up a copier and uses it as portable cover. What I hadn't read before was that the copier, as well as other objects around the room were outlined, but apparently only after the strength aug is activated.

I was afraid of this and it shows that sometimes being optimistic doesn't help, does it?

I strongly dislike this type of feedback and if turning the strength aug on outlines from a distance everything you can use it on, it will seriously cheapen exploration by creating "oh I see something I can move other there" moments.

It'll feel to me that instead of giving me tools and allowing me to use my creativity on what to do with them, that they pre-planned all my creative moments. It even cheapens for me the otherwise interesting feature of using random objects as improvised cover...

[Dead-Eye]

Adam Jenson == hacking life.

[Corpus]

The section where the door only opens for the guard. He might just drag the body into some sensors or something. Since he's not dead it might pick up something or maybe they have ID chips installed somewhere.

[Hammich]

what's everyone's beef with the highlighting system?

in the original Deus Ex, characters and objects you could interact with were highlighted with bouncing holographic box corners around them and a visible name of the object

[Mindmute]

Originally Posted by Hammich

what's everyone's beef with the highlighting system?

in the original Deus Ex, characters and objects you could interact with were highlighted with bouncing holographic box corners around them and a visible name of the object

It highlighted them when you were close and looking at them. Not when you were simply in the same room.

The first still forments exploration and curiosity by making you look around for things to interact with, while the other instantly tells you what can do, making the world feel a bit more "planned" and reducing the need to be inquisitive.
It's a nitpick, for sure, but they're not the same thing.

[subtlesnake]

Originally Posted by Mindmute

I was afraid of this and it shows that sometimes being optimistic doesn't help, does it?

I strongly dislike this type of feedback and if turning the strength aug on outlines from a distance everything you can use it on, it will seriously cheapen exploration by creating "oh I see something I can move other there" moments.

It'll feel to me that instead of giving me tools and allowing me to use my creativity on what to do with them, that they pre-planned all my creative moments. It even cheapens for me the otherwise interesting feature of using random objects as improvised cover...

Well, it doesn't stop you from being creative; it just makes clear what your 'tools' within the environment actually are, so you don't miss an object. I look at at as being a function of the aug itself (telling its user what it can do), rather than being a function of the designer's helping hand.

I think it's a separate issue as to how much ingenuity using it requires. If near to every fence there's a conveniently placed crate to move, then the player *is* being hand held (but that will be the case whether the aug outlines liftable objects or not). On the other hand if you have to think "hang on I remember seeing large object a few encounters ago, maybe I can use that to jump on to this window ledge", then it's a different story. Also, it depends on whether there are plenty of liftable objects that turn out not be useful. Presumably when your strength aug gets high enough, you can lift anything not bolted down, so the whole environment will be full of outlines.

[Irate Iguana]

Originally Posted by Hammich

what's everyone's beef with the highlighting system?

in the original Deus Ex, characters and objects you could interact with were highlighted with bouncing holographic box corners around them and a visible name of the object

It doesn't simply highlight physics objects. It highlights what you can interact with. It tells you specifically "this is what you can use, don't bother looking around for something else". In DX the system would let you know "Dude, there are a lot of boxes in this room". In HR the system will tell you "Dude, you can totally use the third box on the right for something.*wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*". That's the difference. And as an addendum, the highlighting in DX also spoiled several things and should have been improved.

[Mindmute]

Originally Posted by subtlesnake

I think it's a separate issue as to how much ingenuity using it requires. If near to every fence there's a conveniently placed crate to move, then the player *is* being hand held (but that will be the case whether the aug outlines liftable objects or not). On the other hand if you have to think "hang on I remember seeing large object a few encounters ago, maybe I can use that to jump on to this window ledge", then it's a different story.

In the instance of the firefight the article speaks about, I already see it as hand-holding, since it explicitly tells you there's cover to be attained there.
While the creative proccess is still there for the player, it removes a bit of the illusion that it was your idea rather than a possibly planned moment from the developers.

You're absolutely right, though, that if there's enough "junk" elements so that everything highlighted isn't instantly useful and you still have to formulate the plans yourself, this type of feedback won't be an issue.
However, while it is unfair for the team aswell, they are dealing with a jaded crowd that already had to endure a terrible installment in this series, so many of us will always be afraid of the worst (especially if you consider the current trends in videogames regarding hand-holding and the controversial yet trendy decisions they've made so far).

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by MaxxQ1

His hacking skill isn't high enough, but he has enough skill points to boost his cranial slot (you can select individual body parts (I assume ones that are augmented) to upgrade), to make him smart enough to hack the door lock. Maybe the author of the piece was simplifying things, but adding skill points to your head makes you smarter?

Wouldn't boosting the cranial slot boost the hacking "skill" actually? Everything is an augmentation now, no?

[Blade_hunter]

Yeah the conversation system is the only main game element which sounds interesting alon with their hack minigame otherwise nothing new here. that's the same police station sequence

[subtlesnake]

Originally Posted by Mindmute

In the instance of the firefight the article speaks about, I already see it as hand-holding, since it explicitly tells you there's cover to be attained there.
While the creative proccess is still there for the player, it removes a bit of the illusion that it was your idea rather than a possibly planned moment from the developers.

Well, it depends how you see the system. If you see it as the "aug is telling me I can lift this object, and it would make good cover", then it's you using the data from the augmentation system, not the developers telling you what to do. If you think "the developers placed this object for me to use as cover" then it's different. Again, much depends on how conspicuous the object is, and how much ingenuity it actually required to use it.

What I'm saying is you should ideally think of the system as telling you "this is what's liftable, and this is what isn't", and not "this is what's *useful*".

You're absolutely right, though, that if there's enough "junk" elements so that everything highlighted isn't instantly useful and you still have to formulate the plans yourself, this type of feedback won't be an issue.
However, while it is unfair for the team aswell, they are dealing with a jaded crowd that already had to endure a terrible installment in this series, so many of us will always be afraid of the worst (especially if you consider the current trends in videogames regarding hand-holding and the controversial yet trendy decisions they've made so far).

That's fair enough, but for anything EM says you could interpret it two ways "they came to this decision after careful balancing, while striving to maintain the complexity of a Deus Ex game", or "they want to make another console shooter with Deus Ex elements". All I'm saying is I don't think what they've said so far rules out the first option, and I think even if they are genuinely trying to make a 'true' Deus Ex game, they're still going to make decisions that are controversial to fans, and pick mechanics that happen to be found in more recent, less 'cerebral' titles.

Originally Posted by Irate Iguana

It doesn't simply highlight physics objects. It highlights what you can interact with. It tells you specifically "this is what you can use, don't bother looking around for something else". In DX the system would let you know "Dude, there are a lot of boxes in this room". In HR the system will tell you "Dude, you can totally use the third box on the right for something.*wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*". That's the difference. And as an addendum, the highlighting in DX also spoiled several things and should have been improved.

Presumably though it's physics based, so there aren't 'special' boxes you can lift: if the system only highlighted objects that the designers wanted you to use (irrespective of their size/weight), then it would be just another one of those purposefully 'broken' simulation systems.

What should happen is when you go into various rooms with boxes, the smaller ones you can lift (at your current aug level) should be highlighted. It then should be a further question as to whether those boxes are actually useful for anything. Perhaps for example, the larger boxes (which you can't lift, at the moment) *are* useful, but you might not necessarily consider this. Or perhaps none of the (potentially) liftable objects are needed for anything in the immediate vicinity.

[Irate Iguana]

Originally Posted by subtlesnake

Presumably though it's physics based, so there aren't 'special' boxes you can lift: if the system only highlighted objects that the designers wanted you to use (irrespective of their size/weight), then it would be just another one of those purposefully 'broken' simulation systems.

In this interview they specifically mention having fewer physics objects than DX. That's why I am so hung up on the fact that only "special" boxes will be highlighted. With a lot fewer physics objects each object they do highlight will have to be used for something. Maybe not in this room, but in the next. That creates an atmosphere where you just know that you need to look out for something to use that object with.

[-=fox=-]

Originally Posted by Irate Iguana

In this interview they specifically mention having fewer physics objects than DX. That's why I am so hung up on the fact that only "special" boxes will be highlighted. With a lot fewer physics objects each object they do highlight will have to be used for something. Maybe not in this room, but in the next. That creates an atmosphere where you just know that you need to look out for something to use that object with.

Yes, I am concerned about that too. The more usable objects the better in RPGs and I also agree about the highlighting aspect. It'd be ok if it's optional, though.

[AlexOfSpades]

My review:

+1 = i like it
-1 = i hate it
0 = dont know enough to review

During the run-and-gun portion

- Objects are outlined. -1

- Explosive ammo. +1

- Non-Lethal Gun. 0

During the social run-through

- Conversation Choices with Wayne Haas. +1

- Augs to monitor heartbeats. +1

Stealth run-through

- Experience points to customize the character. +1

- Outlining targets in the walls. -1

- Entrance only with a guard. (Alive or not.) +1

- Finding PDA's on the body. +1

Score: B

Press Start to Try Again

[luminar]

Originally Posted by AlexOfSpades

My review:

+1 = i like it
-1 = i hate it
0 = dont know enough to review

During the run-and-gun portion

- Objects are outlined. -1

- Explosive ammo. +1

- Non-Lethal Gun. 0

During the social run-through

- Conversation Choices with Wayne Haas. +1

- Augs to monitor heartbeats. +1

Stealth run-through

- Experience points to customize the character. +1

- Outlining targets in the walls. -1

- Entrance only with a guard. (Alive or not.) +1

- Finding PDA's on the body. +1

Score: B

Press Start to Try Again

Well done, well done. +1 internets!

[Pinky_Powers]

Originally Posted by AlexOfSpades

- Non-Lethal Gun. 0

- Outlining targets in the walls. -1

These two seem wrong to me.

What more do you need to know the PEPS is awesome?

And I honestly can't agree that it's somehow off that an EyeAug which lets you see through walls should outline potential hostile heat sources... that just makes sense to me.





I do have a problem with the strength aug outlining movable objects, though. That seem a bit stupid.

[MaxxQ1]

Originally Posted by Pinky_Powers

And I honestly can't agree that it's somehow off that an EyeAug which lets you see through walls should outline potential hostile heat sources... that just makes sense to me.

I don't have problems with identifying hostiles through walls with augmented eyes. Where I have the issue is that it also displays (by outlining) targets who are within reach for neck-snapping. It's like a big neon sign pointing at the guy and saying "twist here".

I'd like to think that even in a game that is a 3D simulation on a 2D monitor, I can gauge how far away someone is, and whether I can reach his neck or not.

[Wilks]

Don't have an issue with highlighting movable crates, copies, etc while a strength aug is active. If I'm in a firefight looking for some mobile cover, I don't want to activate an aug and run up to a desk only to discover the devs don't allow for this desk to be moved.

In an ideal world, every object would be interactive, I could throw that breakroom fridge at some unsuspecting dude's head. But since I don't think that's going to be the case, I don't really have an issue informing the player of what their options are rather than being intentionally vague about the whole process. Besides, pretty much any movable crate is going to look like every single other movable crate, putting a highlighting line around them won't your understanding of what is interactive, but it can at least allow for varied boxes about the levels. I find that preferable to the exact same metal crate everywhere, from airport to office building to military base.

The wall-smashing, I would prefer a simple distance meter next to your targeting reticule rather than highlighting NPC targets. The fact that NPCs are highlighted makes me think the wall-punch is entirely contextual, and I won't be able to smash through a wall unless there is a guard within range on the other side.