Games™ #99: Jean Francis Dugas & Jonathan Jacques Belletete Interview

[Ashpolt]

Originally Posted by JackShandy

I wasn't talking about the gameplay. I'm just talking about everyone wanting the game to stay strictly within the Deus Ex canon/storyline.

If it can't do that, it shouldn't be presenting itself as a prequel (or sequel.) Even if we can argue that the gameplay mechanics are flexible to change significantly (which I don't agree with at all, but for the sake of making a point...) storyline continuity and adherence to canon is vital, especially in a story-heavy series like Deus Ex. I wouldn't make a new Fallout and say "we've changed it so the bombs now dropped in the 1980s, and everything is now nu-wave and rap themed." I wouldn't make a new Mass Effect and say "actually humans were the first species in space, and first to discover the citadel." I wouldn't make a new Half-Life and say "actually Gordon and Barney worked for Aperture Science, and the resonance cascade was caused by an anonymous scientist." I wouldn't....etc etc.

They're changing the gameplay mechanics significantly, and they're disregarding established canon, though "may" drop in a few character cameos here and there....in what way, exactly, is this a successor then? It seems to me that if anything, this will be the Bioshock to Deus Ex's System Shock*. At least there Irrational Games had the decency to make a new franchise.

*Actually even less so, at least that was made by a large chunk of the same team.

[JackShandy]

Half Life's kind of a bad example there, Ashpolt. Half Life 2 had an extremely different style to HL1, and reworked a lot of the plot elements into a different shape (Condensing all the generic security guards and scientists into two distinct characters, for an example). HL1 and 2 are really, really different - swap the names and you'd have an unrecognisable new franchise.

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. I'm glad valve went into an entirely new direction with this weird sci-fi orwell-style plot instead of trying to clone the first. It was definetly still a Successor, and I don't think anyone's arguing that it's not a Half Life game just because the whole thing doesn't take place in an underground facility. Same thought for Deus Ex. I'm amazed at the courage these guys have in taking this in their own direction, the new art style, everything. Putting in a cover system takes some balls.

Of course the argument then is that they shouldn't even have called it Deus Ex, but I dunno. It's clearly a Deus Ex style game set in a Deus Ex style world. It's got a subtitle instead of a number, so they're distancing themselves a bit while still immediatly showing everyone their intentions. Putting Deus Ex in the title just immediately lets everyone know what kind of game they're trying to make here. Cashing in on the franchise? Well, maybe.

[Ashpolt]

Originally Posted by JackShandy

Half Life's kind of a bad example there, Ashpolt. Half Life 2 had an extremely different style to HL1, and reworked a lot of the plot elements into a different shape (Condensing all the generic security guards and scientists into two distinct characters, for an example). HL1 and 2 are really, really different - swap the names and you'd have an unrecognisable new franchise.

The key point though is that it didn't contradict anything from the original Half-Life. It may have been different, sure, but it was all in keeping with canon and what could conceivably have happened as a result of the first game. The concern with DXHR is not that it'll be too different in and of itself, but that this level of technology could not have existed during this time period in canon.

[xsamitt]

Originally Posted by Ashpolt

The key point though is that it didn't contradict anything from the original Half-Life. It may have been different, sure, but it was all in keeping with canon and what could conceivably have happened as a result of the first game. The concern with DXHR is not that it'll be too different in and of itself, but that this level of technology could not have existed during this time period in canon.

I feel that the technology point you raise does have some validity to it.But I;m more concerned with immersion because I can accept that there is technology in the world right now that ordinary folks no nothing about.So I would expect that in 20 years or so it will be no different.I also don't mind using my imagination to invision things that are not yet.But even with my liberal view and sort of in contradiction to what I just said,the original DX, though set even further ahead in time,tried to keep the weapons more present day,which I would have liked to see in this iteration of DX.
I believe it's a mistake even with a DX title to take us into Fantasy this or that,to me DX was so much more than toy pow pow of the week.

And I pray that we are given the choice to 1st person.Because no matter how talented the team may be or any team for that matter,going back and forth between 1st and 3rd Person perspective is disorienting.I believe that DX should never attempt style over substance.

[Ilves]

Originally Posted by xsamitt

And I pray that we are given the choice to 1st person. [...] going back and forth between 1st and 3rd Person perspective is disorienting.

I'd love optionality, but if you think about it it's not that straightforward. Given the way the game mechanics appear to be working at the moment I just can't imagine going through the (more elaborate) takedowns and cover rolls in 1rst person without suffering seizures.

The only way optional 1rst person would work is if it came with streamlining and simplification of player movement and takedown animations. I doubt if EM are willing to butcher their pet elements like that.

[xsamitt]

Originally Posted by Ilves

I'd love optionality, but if you think about it it's not that straightforward. Given the way the game mechanics appear to be working at the moment I just can't imagine having to go through the (more elaborate) takedowns and cover rolls in 1rst person without suffering seizures.

The only way optional 1rst person would work is if it came with streamlining and simplification of player movement and takedown animations. I doubt if EM are willing to butcher their pet element like that.

I doubt it as well.They seem to have made up their minds a long time ago about many things about this 3rd iteration.I guess i was thinking out-loud.

[Ilves]

^ DX:HR official boards, Thinking Out Loud since 2007.

[Dr Bob]

[QUOTE=WildcatPhoenix;1471134]Examples:

Originally Posted by WildcatPhoenix

Why take out skills? The skill vs. aug balance was a huge part of the RPG/FPS hybrid model.

Skills are manifested in augmentations now.

They were removed, as an independent part of the game, because they conflicted with what the developers wanted to do with the augmentations.

Originally Posted by WildcatPhoenix

Why eliminate lockpicks and multitools?

Oh the joys of staring at a door or an electronic device to pick it or hack it, respectively.

Originally Posted by WildcatPhoenix

Why so much damn third-person camera?

To show you what Jensen is capable of doing.

Originally Posted by WildcatPhoenix

Why scripted cutscenes?

This seems more "casual gamer".

Originally Posted by WildcatPhoenix

Why no melee weapons?

I loved repeatedly clicking my mouse button to awkwardly hit someone!

The takedowns in DX1 were awkward, too.

I'm glad Eidos Montreal have opted for automatic takedowns.

[xsamitt]

[QUOTE=Dr Bob;1472712]

Originally Posted by WildcatPhoenix

Examples:



Skills are manifested in augmentations now.

They were removed, as an independent part of the game, because they conflicted with what the developers wanted to do with the augmentations.



Oh the joys of staring at a door or an electronic device to pick it or hack it, respectively.



To show you what Jensen is capable of doing.



This seems more "casual gamer".



I loved repeatedly clicking my mouse button to awkwardly hit someone!

The takedowns in DX1 were awkward, too.

I'm glad Eidos Montreal have opted for automatic takedowns.

DX3 ...A ton of options you don't have access to.

[Ashpolt]

Originally Posted by xsamitt

I feel that the technology point you raise does have some validity to it.But I;m more concerned with immersion because I can accept that there is technology in the world right now that ordinary folks no nothing about.So I would expect that in 20 years or so it will be no different.I also don't mind using my imagination to invision things that are not yet.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, the "level of technology" issue is definitely one of my lesser concerns with this game, it's not something I'm personally massively bothered about, but I totally understand those who are. The gameplay mechanics, particularly - as you mentioned - the 3rd person elements concern me a lot more, but if they could get that side of things right, I could forgive some (not massive*) canon errors.

*By this I mean things like the level of technology issue could be forgiven, stuff like "Paul is JC's father! Manderley used to be the head of the Triad!" would still be stupid.

[xsamitt]

Originally Posted by Ashpolt

Yeah, don't get me wrong, the "level of technology" issue is definitely one of my lesser concerns with this game, it's not something I'm personally massively bothered about, but I totally understand those who are. The gameplay mechanics, particularly - as you mentioned - the 3rd person elements concern me a lot more, but if they could get that side of things right, I could forgive some (not massive*) canon errors.

*By this I mean things like the level of technology issue could be forgiven, stuff like "Paul is JC's father! Manderley used to be the head of the Triad!" would still be stupid.

Hi Ashpolt...Yes we clearly are on the same page.I have not the greatest hope for DX3 but as I'm an eternal optimist I will give you my opinion after I've played the game and will fill you in....That's what friends do right.

[mad825]

Originally Posted by Jean-Francois Dugas

We see Human Revolution as an brand new game even though it's part of the Deus Ex franchise, it's kinda of a reboot, we think alot of gamers today don't know about it. For us we see it as a new game, it's new chactors, it's a new storyline, so you don't need to know the old Deus Ex games to appreciate it......obliviously will pay a nudge to the old one...

sound familiar?

as Jean said in laymans, don't expect too much nostalgia and don't expect it to coincide with the old Deus Ex story because we need to entertain new players as well but we'll be keeping the familiar feel of the game

in this case, we can expect inconsistency with the story...in other interviews I can quote him saying along the the lines a of re-make

[Pretentious Old Man.]

Originally Posted by mad825

sound familiar?

as Jean said in laymans, don't expect too much nostalgia and don't expect it to coincide with the old Deus Ex story because we need to entertain new players as well but we'll be keeping the familiar feel of the game

in this case, we can expect inconsistency with the story...in other interviews I can quote him saying along the the lines a of re-make

I don't see how mentioning old characters would alienate new players. After all, they wouldn't know would they? They'd just think "Gunther Hermann, cool name, must be German".

[Corpus]

Originally Posted by mad825

sound familiar?

as Jean said in laymans, don't expect too much nostalgia and don't expect it to coincide with the old Deus Ex story because we need to entertain new players as well but we'll be keeping the familiar feel of the game

in this case, we can expect inconsistency with the story...in other interviews I can quote him saying along the the lines a of re-make

Its risky relating back to the story in a prequel especially if you didn't create the original (I say this because there could have been extra plot ideas and back stories that were never explained like Manderely). Heck even if you did you can mess it up, GSC had a rather sloppy story for the prequel to stalker.

[mad825]

Originally Posted by Pretentious Old Man.

I don't see how mentioning old characters would alienate new players. After all, they wouldn't know would they? They'd just think "Gunther Hermann, cool name, must be German".

It would be like watching Twelve Monkeys backwards plot/story wise or talking to Barney in HL2 without playing HL/BlueShift , "new" people wouldn't be able to relate to the character and just wouldn't care and makes the experience lesser compared to those who have played DX 1,2.

Originally Posted by Corpus

Its risky relating back to the story in a prequel especially if you didn't create the original. Heck even if you did you can mess it up, GSC had a rather sloppy story for the prequel to stalker.

I'm not judging if this is going to be good or bad however people (old players) expect it "make sense" what I'm trying to say is that "just forget 1 and 2 because the 'prequel' is not going to bother and try to make sense of it all"

[Corpus]

Originally Posted by mad825

It would be like watching Twelve Monkeys backwards plot/story wise or talking to Barney in HL2 without playing HL/BlueShift , "new" people wouldn't be able to relate to the character and just wouldn't care and makes the experience lesser compared to those who have played DX 1,2.

I'm not judging if this is going to be good or bad however people (old players) expect it "make sense" what I'm trying to say is that "just forget 1 and 2 because the 'prequel' is not going to bother and try to make sense of it all"

They've acknowledged there will be references in there. My major concern is justifying the tech, even though I'm fully happy with what they have put in . It would just help me understand the world better.

[mad825]

Originally Posted by Corpus

They've acknowledged there will be references in there. My major concern is justifying the tech, even though I'm fully happy with what they have put in . It would just help me understand the world better.

as I said "just forget 1 and 2 because the 'prequel' is not going to bother and try to make sense of it all"

yes they may add references for the fan based players however this game was never intended to be accurate and we may well be having a squabble as the Fallout 1,2 fans did to fallout 3

[pringlepower]

Originally Posted by mad825

It would be like watching Twelve Monkeys backwards plot/story wise or talking to Barney in HL2 without playing HL/BlueShift , "new" people wouldn't be able to relate to the character and just wouldn't care and makes the experience lesser compared to those who have played DX 1,2.

I'm not judging if this is going to be good or bad however people (old players) expect it "make sense" what I'm trying to say is that "just forget 1 and 2 because the 'prequel' is not going to bother and try to make sense of it all"

I related the Barney without playing HL at all, because he was a perfectly nice guy with a sense of humour.

[WildcatPhoenix]

Originally Posted by Dr Bob

Skills are manifested in augmentations now.

They were removed, as an independent part of the game, because they conflicted with what the developers wanted to do with the augmentations.

And how exactly do these developers plan to reward players for exploring, completing sidequests, or taking on tough challenges? The skill points were given to encourage just such a thing. By making everything centered around augs they are eliminating this extra motivation...unless they plan to drop an aug upgrade from the sky like in Mario 3 when a player goes exploring.

Originally Posted by Dr Bob

Oh the joys of staring at a door or an electronic device to pick it or hack it, respectively.

Deus Ex was all about resource management. Augs, lockpicks, multitools- everything came down to this core element. "Would I rather trade 2 lockpicks to get inside here, or should I use my one remaining LAM to blow the door open? Do I risk alerting the guards?" The complexity was what made it beautiful. Now we are simply reducing options- everything is tied to the hacking aug, and the only resource to balance is your bioenergy (which to some degree is going to automatically recharge anyway!)

Originally Posted by Dr Bob

To show you what Jensen is capable of doing.

This is just weak.

Originally Posted by Dr Bob

I loved repeatedly clicking my mouse button to awkwardly hit someone!

This is like saying "I think it's stupid that I have to click a mouse button to fire a weapon." You have to click your mouse/joystick/button/whatever to activate the takedown, too. If you're not close enough, guess what? You'll have to click it again!

Originally Posted by Dr Bob

The takedowns in DX1 were awkward, too.

I'm glad Eidos Montreal have opted for automatic takedowns.

I'm sure you'll love the 3rd person ladder climbing and cover system too.

[pringlepower]

Originally Posted by WildcatPhoenix

And how exactly do these developers plan to reward players for exploring, completing sidequests, or taking on tough challenges? The skill points were given to encourage just such a thing. By making everything centered around augs they are eliminating this extra motivation...unless they plan to drop an aug upgrade from the sky like in Mario 3 when a player goes exploring.

They can reward players for exploring, completing sidequests, and taking on tough challenges by... giving them skill points. To upgrade the augs. Which they're doing. Really. They are. They really are. Really.

And didn't Deus Ex give you aug upgrades for exploring?

[Pinky_Powers]

Originally Posted by pringlepower

They can reward players for exploring, completing sidequests, and taking on tough challenges by... giving them skill points. To upgrade the augs. Which they're doing. Really. They are. They really are. Really.

And didn't Deus Ex give you aug upgrades for exploring?

Quite true. There were a number of Aug Canisters that could only be found by exploration.

You made a really good point above. The incentives for discovering everything HR has to offer is just as potent as was found in Deus Ex. In the end, it will come down to level design and general content to determine if this facet of the game compares well to the original.

[WildcatPhoenix]

No, he did not, Pinky. Aug upgrades were relatively rare in the original game, while skillpoints could be obtained for completing just about any quest or assignment, not just in exploration.

I have not read anywhere that general skill points will be awarded and available for application toward the player's augs in DXHR. If someone can point me to an article or interview that says so, I will retract my position on this.

Even so, how is this "streamlining" of skills and augs not simply another case of simplification? Reducing options? Reducing complexity?

[NKD]

I thought this was the official forum for DXHR. Instead I seem to have stepped into the official Anti-DXHR forums.

[Jerion]

Originally Posted by WildcatPhoenix

No, he did not, Pinky. Aug upgrades were relatively rare in the original game, while skillpoints could be obtained for completing just about any quest or assignment, not just in exploration.

I have not read anywhere that general skill points will be awarded and available for application toward the player's augs in DXHR. If someone can point me to an article or interview that says so, I will retract my position on this.

Even so, how is this "streamlining" of skills and augs not simply another case of simplification? Reducing options? Reducing complexity?

Give this a read:

http://deusex-humanrevolution.blogsp...cyberpunk.html

"Consolidation" (note: different from "consolization") is the word you're looking for here.

[Pinky_Powers]

Originally Posted by WildcatPhoenix

No, he did not, Pinky. Aug upgrades were relatively rare in the original game, while skillpoints could be obtained for completing just about any quest or assignment, not just in exploration.

It doesn't matter if Aug canisters were rare, the mere fact of them is enough to drive most to explore every nook and cranny.

And I've read in a number of articles that exploration in HR will be rewarded on many levels, with skill points and other goodies.