Oblivion syndrome, and why I hope EM won't contract it.

[El Zoido]

One big plus of Morrowind was its setting, which was very different from many other fantasy cRPGs.
Oblivion returned to a more familiar, fairly "standard" fantasy setting.

Speaking of the gameworld, what I did like about DX is how it created the illusion of a living world by adding nice touches like dialogues between npc, email accounts, etc.

Despite having an AI with day/night cycles and schedules for NPC, Bethesda never really succeeded completely in giving their worlds a "living" feeling (no, "I've seen a mudcrab the other day" doesn't count). To me it somehow felt sterile.

Hopefully the developers will manage to recreate the real-world feeling in HR.

[-=fox=-]

Originally Posted by El Zoido

One big plus of Morrowind was its setting, which was very different from many other fantasy cRPGs.
Oblivion returned to a more familiar, fairly "standard" fantasy setting.

In case of DX it works the other way round: many people complained about IW's setting being too far in the future an lauded DX1 for being so close to our reality. Morrowind was just too different for my taste and that made it less accessible for me. I didn't want to have to memorize tons of exotic tongue-breaking names (full voice overs might have helped) in order to get anywhere. I want to explore the world and feel like a part of it as quick as possible. Sure, exotic stuff should be there to discover but not in that concentration, not for me. I fell in love with cyberpunk for that reason.

[Kodaemon]

Interesting point you have there. However, I think it just really works in reverse for DX and Elder Scrolls.

DX is heavily rooted in reality, and features recognizable elements from our daily world so the move towards Star Trek-ish sci-fi lessened the "close to home" feel. Morrowind's setting on the other hand was hard to get into, but incredibly detailed, nuanced and fascinating once you did. Oblivion was a series of played-out fantasy cliche's by comparison.

So while the starting points in both the DX->IW and MW->Oblivion cases were very different different, the progression was the same: not only was the gameplay of the sequels streamlined, the settings themselves were too: from concrete, complex worlds, to more abstract creations (yes, I feel the world of Oblivion is less real than that of Morrowind).

[-=fox=-]

Sure, familiar settings aren't necessarily feeling more real then completely new ones (as we all know from the experience of nightmares) but I'd say that the use of stuff from our reality (read "familiar stuff") generally helps a lot with creating a sense of reality. If, on the other hand, everything is new to us, we usually feel disoriented and surreal.

I agree with you about the gameplay streamlining (I think IW suffered much more from that then Oblivion) but contrary to you the more familiar setting of Obivion ultimately felt more 'real' to me because it was a bit more standard fare and therefore less disorienting or even tiresome (I mean, come on, who comes up with names like "Arkngthand"...). I don't advocate streamlining of any kind but I don't really enjoy the extreme opposite either.

[Anasumtj]

I guess I'm just wondering how anybody could find Morrowind's world to be impenetrable to any degree.

So a few things looked weird and some locales had ridiculously hard names to pronounce. So what? It's a fantasy sandbox game. Jump in, wade around a bit, and you'll eventually feel at home as you would any other game.

[Mosillivo]

Oh... I have an account

A few notes:

Originally Posted by pringlepower

And yeah, I only picked up Oblivion in 2009, after a lovely array of mods had been released to fix... well everything (and add a lightsaber).

Encase you didn't catch it...

Originally Posted by pringlepower

and add a lightsaber.

A LIGHTSABER. In an ELDER SCROLLS GAME! The annoying fact is, the majority of mods released by the community tends to fall under this same category, adding some form of weapons or armour that do not extend gameplay but instead further overpower your character. Even "content addition" mods tend to have some sort of "reward" that encourages people to install the mod (and keep it installed) rather than expand on role-playing elements.

This gets exceptionally annoying because mods that do have favourable gameplay enhancements often have unfavourable aspects that must be removed... and that's not counting mods that "package" other mods into them because the "modder"... well, let's avoid any obscenities.

On a side rant, I particularly hate how modders are always praised for not being lazy. People will often say "x mod is the best" simply because it's the only mod that exists that serves their purpose. Unfortunately, this instills a form of dictatorship in the modding environment. I'm not terribly active in modding, but I did once attempt to release a massive improvement upon another modders mod... to which I was pretty much attacked over and my own mod forced down over the "popularity" of the existing mod. Just because someone was first, does not mean that they should hold exclusive rights to all mods of that type, and the modding community should actively seek to surpass existing mods. NOT promote their continued usage.

The point here is simply that modders can hardly be relied upon to generate the content you'd expect out of a game... and it gets worse as the modding community becomes increasingly juvenile. (And yeah... you could mod it yourself... but then you'd have to read documentation and run it in a test environment ... though that too, is fun at times; sometimes you just want to play).



I must admit; I've never completed morrowind. Nor have I completed Oblivion. Neither game was terribly immerrsive... and daggerfall? Honestly, I tried... but the first dungeon kills it for me, just about every spawn there is in a single dungeon? How should I expect the game to be when I come out? Morrowind was simply too static... my quest options were "do it now, or come back to it later"...

And now... I seem to have forgotten what I was talking about.


Perhaps I was just meaning to say "Quality" gameplay is something that no one seems to want anymore... and even more so because of class stereotyping (Only Geeky Nerds who dress up screaming spells "roleplay") thus people want games to be less immersive and more... "action" because it fuels their own insecurities Those games are fun and all BUT (and I stress this) they have to glorify killing in order to achieve this... and they have to allow mass-slaughter to continually deliver this benefit... and neither Oblivion, nor Morrowind, follow such parameters... let alone Deus Ex.



I'll make one other point before leaving for another 6 months... there are a few members that are emphasising this new "cool" aspect of Deus Ex: Human Revolution as being a good thing... stating they've enjoyed such play in other games. My question is this: How long do you expect to play this game? Too many games are made under the premise that they should be played once, and then abandoned... and FAR TOO MANY gamers operate under the notion that "games should be played once, or only a few times with friends... then abandoned"

I mean... when you have people calling games that came out less than 5 years ago "ancient" and generally laughing at the gameplay rather than enjoying it (even if they had before)... you have a clear problem with the community... because in this day and time... people are all too willing to "buy a shinny toy" than to buy a toy that will last.

[El Zoido]

Originally Posted by -=fox=-

In case of DX it works the other way round

This I actually agree upon, I liked DX1's more cyber-punkish approach much more than IW's science-fiction setting.
Which is right now my main fear regarding HR, the trailer looks a bit too futuristic to me.
But I think it's still too early to really be sure about that.

Originally Posted by Mosillivo

A LIGHTSABER. In an ELDER SCROLLS GAME!

Well you know, I never liked all the nude, perfect-hair-anime-doll or cool looking über-equipment-mods (in fact I usually find them outright silly), but ultimately its up to everyone's personal taste how to mod his game.

As long as there is an easy way to mod games (thank you for that, Bethesda!), there will be a lot such mods, but amongst them you will probably find some good ones that actually appeal to your more refined tastes, so why bother?

[Pinky_Powers]

Originally Posted by -=fox=-

I don't advocate streamlining of any kind

I don't believe you. No one who played the first Mass Effect could come away saying "The inventory system is perfect does not need streamlining."

Streamlining is a very, very good thing, so long as it does not remove functionality. The problem is, the tendency is to go to the far extreme. For ME, they did not fix the inventory, they removed it completely. This is bad. It's just as bad as suggesting that nothing should ever be streamlined.

Walk a life of balance and you'll find perfection.

[Kodaemon]

Originally Posted by Pinky_Powers

Walk a life of balance and you'll find perfection.

Guidance 128:
Do not confuse excellence with perfection. Excellence is achievable, perfection is elusive.

This is the way of Kane.

[Pretentious Old Man.]

I think it's important not to confuse familiarity with plausibility. Morrowind was unfamiliar, but plausible. Oblivion was familiar, but implausible.

I'm a professor of Medieval history (specifically religion, but hey) in real life, and even though I'm not an architect, medieval town planning, social conditions, and general life still fall under my field of study. Oblivion is 100% Disney BS, not unlike Disneyland Paris. Cyrodiil is populated solely by stereotypes, most of whom have no obvious way of raising the money for the lifestyles in which they live. The whole economy of Cyrodiil makes no sense. Everyone lives in comfortable affluance, with, as a colleague of mine put it, "the odd perfunctory beggar" thrown in for good measure. None of the deep social problems Vvardenfell had were there.

Vvardenfell was a very interesting area. There was a Colonial/Native juxtaposition that sits very well with real history. As well as the colonial/native tensions, you gradually learn that there are only two kinds of organisation in Morrowind, those run by corrupt officials, and those ruled by incompetents. Duke Vedam Dren has been utterly emasculated, he "runs" Vvardenfell in only the most basic ways possible. The Camonna Tong control the real power of the province, and they are thoroughly evil.

In fact, it's struggles and violence that characterise Vvardenfell, just as in the real world. The three great houses, Hlaalu, Telvanni and Redoran, loath each other. The Almsivi Tribunal and the Nine Divines are having to compete for popularity as a faith. The Sixth House cult fights to emasculate the Tribunal. The Mages' guild loathes House Telvanni. The Twin Lamps fight the rampant slavery of Morrowind, which is supported by Telvanni and Redoran, and only nominally opposed by Hlaalu, who are only chasing a profit. The East Empire company is conning everyone blind, and utterly dominating the ebony and egg trades like an antiquated Rockefeller. Interspersed between all of this are the nomadic Ashlanders, who just want to lead the life of their ancestors. Most of these groups have something in common: they hate all foreigners, ESPECIALLY you.

I found this to be an engaging world. In that respect, it's actually a lot more familiar than Oblivion. Sure, there are names like Ashabantispal, but at least that's better than the certified Walt Disney you get from 'blivi, in which everyone is happy, mean old Dagon is defeated, and the world is all good again now.

I'm not pre-judging anyone, but I suspect most people who think Morrowind had less depth than Oblivion just gave up on it too soon. Many people see the game world as a vehicle for gameplay, and that's normally true, but in a TES game, the experience and the lore are at least as important.

There is an exception to my problems with 'blivi: The Shivering Isles. One of the best expansion packs I have ever played, TSI brought to Oblivion what was always lacking: the unpredictable madness of Morrowind. Sadly, by definition, the realm of Sheogorath was not anything like as plausible in its (non-existent) social structure as Morrowind, but at least that was explained by it being a twisted and demented plane of Oblivion.

Peace out. Once again, I hope that the world of Deus Ex doesn't become bowdlerised, like Cyrodiil did in Oblivion.

[luminar]

Originally Posted by Mosillivo

I'll make one other point before leaving for another 6 months... there are a few members that are emphasising this new "cool" aspect of Deus Ex: Human Revolution as being a good thing... stating they've enjoyed such play in other games. My question is this: How long do you expect to play this game? Too many games are made under the premise that they should be played once, and then abandoned... and FAR TOO MANY gamers operate under the notion that "games should be played once, or only a few times with friends... then abandoned"

I mean... when you have people calling games that came out less than 5 years ago "ancient" and generally laughing at the gameplay rather than enjoying it (even if they had before)... you have a clear problem with the community... because in this day and time... people are all too willing to "buy a shinny toy" than to buy a toy that will last.

I agree with this but I also think that coolness (a prime example of this is assasins creed 2.) can be coupled with deep rewarding lasting gameplay. For me replayability and lasting value are two of the most important features in a game, unfortunatley they are usually not there.

[Pretentious Old Man.]

Originally Posted by luminar

I agree with this but I also think that coolness (a prime example of this is assasins creed 2.) can be coupled with deep rewarding lasting gameplay. For me replayability and lasting value are two of the most important features in a game, unfortunatley they are usually not there.

butbutbutbutbutbutbutbut...

we r want gaem that make lotz of moneyz so we r can b rich and s3ll millions of gamez?!??!?

[pringlepower]

The strange Vvardenfell names aren't so bad. I know someone in Massachusetts who lives near Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg.

Arkngthand isn't so bad by comparison.

Also, Bangkok's real name is Krung Thep Mahanakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahinthara Yuthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Phiman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanukam Prasit. Really.

Also they're only used for Daedric Shrines, which makes sense because Daedra are just bloody weird. The rest of the places have nice names like Vivec and Moonmoth. Other than the mushroom trees and queer architecture Morrowind really wasn't too abstract (and the silk striders, and the laser wall, and te...)

[Mindmute]

Originally Posted by pringlepower

The strange Vvardenfell names aren't so bad. I know someone in Massachusetts who lives near Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg.

Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch and Gorsafawddacha'idraigodanheddogleddollônpenrhynareurdraethceredigion are two real places in Wales. Based on the past and present culture/languages of a place I don't think anything can be considered too absurd.

[pringlepower]

Originally Posted by Mindmute

Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch and Gorsafawddacha'idraigodanheddogleddollônpenrhynareurdraethceredigion are two real places in Wales. Based on the past and present culture/languages of a place I don't think anything can be considered too absurd.

Oh crap I missed the Gaelics. Weird old Gaelics. Clearly there are dremora lords hiding in Cardiff.

[Pretentious Old Man.]

Even the Romans had such names as Corinium Dobunnorum, Durocornovium, Durovernum Cantiacorum and Isca Dumnoniorum. And that's in Britain alone.

Originally Posted by pringlepower

Oh crap I missed the Gaelics. Weird old Gaelics. Clearly there are dremora lords hiding in Cardiff.

Aneurin Bevan was a daedroth prince. Neil Kinnock is a Dremora Churl. And Windsor Davies...is just epic.

[Pooeypants]

I've got Morrowind and both expansion packs, played them all to completion and same with Oblivion. I entirely agree with the original poster about the streamlining. I mean, having spent at least 200hrs on Oblivion (1 replay) I immensely enjoyed the game but also saw its shortcomings. Also, why did Bethesda only have about 10 different voice actors for Oblivion? Even Max Payne 2 had a longer cast list...

Anyway, the DX:HR is coming out on console at same time/earlier and so I'm fully expecting to be full of console compromises. It's just the way of the world at the moment, no one respects their heritage.

[St. Mellow]

Originally Posted by Pooeypants

Also, why did Bethesda only have about 10 different voice actors for Oblivion? Even Max Payne 2 had a longer cast list...

That's the worst "technical" flaw in Oblivion IMO. Throws immersion right out the window. It's almost offensive. The actors aren't even trying to sound different.

[Pretentious Old Man.]

Originally Posted by [tag]

That's the worst "technical" flaw in Oblivion IMO. Throws immersion right out the window. It's almost offensive. The actors aren't even trying to sound different.

I know. On the one hand, they hire Patrick Stewart, Sean Bean and Terence Stamp. On the other, there are about 6 other actors. Whut?

[Pooeypants]

Originally Posted by Pretentious Old Man.

I know. On the one hand, they hire Patrick Stewart, Sean Bean and Terence Stamp. On the other, there are about 6 other actors. Whut?

I love those individual actors but they don't "make" the game. I don't know what the feck they were thinking when they blew the entire voice actor budget on them. I mean, Patrick Stewart barely got a few lines in...

[Pretentious Old Man.]

Originally Posted by Pooeypants

I love those individual actors but they don't "make" the game. I don't know what the feck they were thinking when they blew the entire voice actor budget on them. I mean, Patrick Stewart barely got a few lines in...

A few lines and literally not one facepalm.

[pringlepower]

Originally Posted by Pretentious Old Man.

I know. On the one hand, they hire Patrick Stewart, Sean Bean and Terence Stamp. On the other, there are about 6 other actors. Whut?

Better yet, hire Patrick Stewart and KILL him in 10 minutes.

And then hire Liam Neeson and have him run away in 10 minutes.

[Pinky_Powers]

Originally Posted by Kodaemon

Guidance 128:
Do not confuse excellence with perfection. Excellence is achievable, perfection is elusive.

This is the way of Kane.

Yes, true perfection is a misnomer. But for the sake of vague philosophical gibberish, it works well as a guideline or goal.

[El Zoido]

Originally Posted by Pretentious Old Man.

I think it's important not to confuse familiarity with plausibility. Morrowind was unfamiliar, but plausible. Oblivion was familiar, but implausible.

Very interesting thought and unfortunately thats a problem most fantasy games have.
(But then again this seems to be a universal problem, look at a ren faire)
Another example: copious amounts of food lying around on the tables, without any meaningful way to prepare or store them (refrigerators are not invented yet...), let alone produce them.

But talking about plausibility, does it seem plausible to you that 20 years from now the world will look like in the HR trailer?

How different was the world 20 years ago?

[Irate Iguana]

Originally Posted by El Zoido

How different was the world 20 years ago?

Just look at the computers, cellphones and internet that we have today. They changed the world a lot. An even bigger change was between 1900 and 1920 with the introduction of affordable cars and the development of aircraft and the first commercial airlines. It all depends on the technological breakthroughs that take place in that time frame.