Deus Ex was "overly complicated and deeply flawed"?

[Mindmute]

Originally Posted by pringlepower

Fine fine. It's just so fun to be a jerk. Everyone jumps at everyone for no reason. We're all pirahnas. Just some are more classy pirahnas.

Anyways both DX and KOTOR had their share of decisions with resounding effects throughout and were forgotten about later on.

E.g., In KOTOR if you poison the kolto supply in Manaan, medkit prices spike up for the rest of the game, and NPCs talk about it. DX had a lot of long-term decisions, but characters like the Rentons are never seen again.

You actually see his daughter, either in the bar during martial law, where you can ask her about Vinnie or in the gas station when you go to rescue Savage's daughter if she ran away after you resolve the situation in the 'Ton.

And I wasn't trying to take away any merit from KOTOR or DA:O (they were games I played, replayed and enjoyed several times), I was merely repplying that if DX's choice and consequence system are as broken as that poster was saying, then those two aren't much better off.
It's more of a matter of "A is as bad as B and B is regarded as good", than "B is worthless". Sorry if I wasn't very clear about that opinion on the first post

[WildcatPhoenix]

Originally Posted by pringlepower

DX had a lot of long-term decisions, but characters like the Rentons are never seen again.

This is true. I think the designers came to the realization of how hard it is to let important characters potentially die. For example, Warren has mentioned how it was difficult to find scenes for Paul after NYC since it was possible for him to die fairly early in the game. The same goes for the Rentons. If you give Mr. Renton a weapon to defend himself, then Sandra is impressed with his courage and decides to stay in New York.

Granted, I'd love to see a developer really take the plunge and say "Yep, this character can die, and if you kill him or let him die you will miss out on a lot of important stuff." It'd be a colossal pain-in-the-ass in terms of writing, but I would certainly welcome the effort. It would really add a ton of importance to your choices in the game.

[pringlepower]

Originally Posted by Mindmute

You actually see his daughter, either in the bar during martial law, where you can ask her about Vinnie or in the gas station when you go to rescue Savage's daughter if she ran away after you resolve the situation in the 'Ton.

And I wasn't trying to take away any merit from KOTOR or DA:O (they were games I played, replayed and enjoyed several times), I was merely repplying that if DX's choice and consequence system are as broken as that poster was saying, then those two aren't much better off.
It's more of a matter of "A is as bad as B and B is regarded as good", than "B is worthless". Sorry if I wasn't very clear about that opinion on the first post

Oh really? Hmm I remember seeing a blonde girl later in the game but I was pretty sure that was Tiff, and only Tiff.

[Mindmute]

Originally Posted by pringlepower

Oh really? Hmm I remember seeing a blonde girl later in the game but I was pretty sure that was Tiff, and only Tiff.

Yup, really happens if you don't help her dad stand up for himself, she leaves town as drifter and starts heading west. She's by the bum who gives you the sewer access key for the gas station.


Like Filben'd say, here's a picture (please try to ignore the dead Joseph Manderley, I wish I knew wtf happened there, but the whole photo album seems to be dead Manderleys throughout the DX world with elaborate stories behind them):

[WildcatPhoenix]

Originally Posted by Mindmute

the whole photo album seems to be dead Manderleys throughout the DX world with elaborate stories behind them

The Dead Manderleys. Sounds like a great band name!

[Fluffis]

Originally Posted by WildcatPhoenix

The Dead Manderleys. Sounds like a great band name!

Featuring such hits as: "Alright, Denton", "What Happened?", "Full Op Bonus" and "Aaaaaaaarrrgh!"

[Pretentious Old Man.]

Originally Posted by Fluffis

Featuring such hits as: "Alright, Denton", "What Happened?", "Full Op Bonus" and "Aaaaaaaarrrgh!"

Not forgetting the unforgettable "There's a hole in my head, Dear Walton"

[Ashpolt]

Originally Posted by Fluffis

Featuring such hits as: "Alright, Denton", "What Happened?", "Full Op Bonus" and "Aaaaaaaarrrgh!"

And, of course, their breakout classic "Stay out of the ladies' restroom."

[pringlepower]

Originally Posted by Ashpolt

And, of course, their breakout classic "Stay out of the ladies' restroom."

Manderley raps?

[Blade_hunter]

Click my sig and manderley will rap again

[Ashpolt]

Originally Posted by pringlepower

Manderley raps?

Or, you know, the original game. :S

[Pretentious Old Man.]

The Malkavian mod is made of win.

Although not quite as much win as the Nameless Mod.

[Jerion]

Originally Posted by Pretentious Old Man.

The Malkavian mod is made of win.

Although not quite as much win as the Nameless Mod.

Ditto. TNM is the most ambitious, not to mention the most interesting mod I've explored yet.

[Pretentious Old Man.]

Originally Posted by Mr. K

Ditto. TNM is the most ambitious, not to mention the most interesting mod I've explored yet.

Wait till Roma Surrectum II comes out next month for "Ambition" (Rome: Total War). Anyway, I digress. Apologies.

[WildcatPhoenix]

"Get Pills Against My Orders," the debut album by The Dead Manderleys, featuring chart-topping hits such as "Knight Killers," "Going In Like the U.S. Marshals," and "You Will Behave Like a Professional"...

Lol. Love it.

[MaxxQ1]

Dudes! I totally saw The Dead Manderleys open for Blue Oyster Cult in the '70's!

[pringlepower]

Originally Posted by MaxxQ1

Dudes! I totally saw The Dead Manderleys open for Blue Oyster Cult in the '70's!

Op bonus > cowbell.

[jjc]

Unfortunately they jumped the shark with the release of their album "Big Guy in a Coat."

[Shralla]

Originally Posted by WildcatPhoenix

If you give Mr. Renton a weapon to defend himself, then Sandra is impressed with his courage and decides to stay in New York.

I didn't even know that. Damn.

[Pinky_Powers]

And if you shoot them both, Gunther plays on a Slip'n'Slide in front of the Ton Hotel.

[Pooeypants]

Originally Posted by WildcatPhoenix

This is true. I think the designers came to the realization of how hard it is to let important characters potentially die. For example, Warren has mentioned how it was difficult to find scenes for Paul after NYC since it was possible for him to die fairly early in the game. The same goes for the Rentons. If you give Mr. Renton a weapon to defend himself, then Sandra is impressed with his courage and decides to stay in New York.

Granted, I'd love to see a developer really take the plunge and say "Yep, this character can die, and if you kill him or let him die you will miss out on a lot of important stuff." It'd be a colossal pain-in-the-ass in terms of writing, but I would certainly welcome the effort. It would really add a ton of importance to your choices in the game.

Mate, if you want to talk about colossal pain think about the decisions you make in Mass Effect which then carries on to its sequel.
If Alpha Protocol had been a success then its sequel would've had a similar problem too but if you plan it from the beginning it shouldn't be too difficult to implement.

[remmus]

I wouldn´t not say Deus Ex is over elaborate or totally horrible, but it has not aged well and you have to be looking at it with some nostalgia glasses if you don´t think so.

1. the rpg aspect was greatly imbalanced and simply created plot holes, here you where Mister JC Denton, a augmented, geneticly made super agent right out of a special forces training....and you couldn´t hit the broadside of a barn with your starting skills, heck you had to exploit the extra skill points glitch to come close to being the skill level you expect of a secret agent.

2. stealth system was shallow and just plain frustrating to use, the only saving graces was quick save/load and the fact the enemies were stupid and half blind.

3. None lethal was simply worthless, yeah it´s possible, but horrendously draining on your patience, all the none lethal means where ineffective and stealth attacks where finicky at some times.

4. the game promotes multi tactics but in the end stealth shooting/stabing ends up being the only way not getting yourself killed 2 minutes flat.

plus a few other nit picks here and there.

[Nyysjan]

Originally Posted by remmus

I wouldn´t not say Deus Ex is over elaborate or totally horrible, but it has not aged well and you have to be looking at it with some nostalgia glasses if you don´t think so.

1. the rpg aspect was greatly imbalanced and simply created plot holes, here you where Mister JC Denton, a augmented, geneticly made super agent right out of a special forces training....and you couldn´t hit the broadside of a barn with your starting skills, heck you had to exploit the extra skill points glitch to come close to being the skill level you expect of a secret agent.

2. stealth system was shallow and just plain frustrating to use, the only saving graces was quick save/load and the fact the enemies were stupid and half blind.

3. None lethal was simply worthless, yeah it´s possible, but horrendously draining on your patience, all the none lethal means where ineffective and stealth attacks where finicky at some times.

4. the game promotes multi tactics but in the end stealth shooting/stabing ends up being the only way not getting yourself killed 2 minutes flat.

plus a few other nit picks here and there.

1. A fair point, but acceptable break fom reality, they could have made us immortla killing machines, but then other gamestyles might have been overshadowed, at worst they merely gave too little skill points at the start, not a major issue.

2. Opinion, if anything, stealth was too easy at times, some minor adjustments might have made it better, but there was nothing fundamentally wrong or bad about it. Also, too realistic/smart AI just makes for frustrating gameplay.

3. Again, an opinion, killing is easy, a child can kill a grown man by accident, taking down silently and non lethally is harder, and makes the moral choice of doing so even more important imo.

4. So you complain that running at a bunch of enemies with assault rifles and body armor might, the horror, get you killed? Yes, the shooter aspect might have been better, make the enemies less accurate and give JC better armor (and maybe a helmet), but again, nothing fundamentally wrong, you can take the go in guns blazing route, and you might even make it alive, but just because you can do something, does not make it necessarily a smart option.

Last time i played the original DX through was less than a year ago (have since switched to win7 from xp, now i can't make it to work ), and i assure you, it was still just as awesome as it was when i played it the first time.
If anything DX has aged insanely well, graphics are bad, but they always were, voice acting is lackluster, but it always was (and i kind of love the voice acting, the monotone from JC, Gunthers accent "I wanted orange"), but the gameplay, story, characters, all that really matters, is still as awesome as it was.

[pringlepower]

Originally Posted by Nyysjan

1. A fair point, but acceptable break fom reality, they could have made us immortla killing machines, but then other gamestyles might have been overshadowed, at worst they merely gave too little skill points at the start, not a major issue.

2. Opinion, if anything, stealth was too easy at times, some minor adjustments might have made it better, but there was nothing fundamentally wrong or bad about it. Also, too realistic/smart AI just makes for frustrating gameplay.

3. Again, an opinion, killing is easy, a child can kill a grown man by accident, taking down silently and non lethally is harder, and makes the moral choice of doing so even more important imo.

4. So you complain that running at a bunch of enemies with assault rifles and body armor might, the horror, get you killed? Yes, the shooter aspect might have been better, make the enemies less accurate and give JC better armor (and maybe a helmet), but again, nothing fundamentally wrong, you can take the go in guns blazing route, and you might even make it alive, but just because you can do something, does not make it necessarily a smart option.

Last time i played the original DX through was less than a year ago (have since switched to win7 from xp, now i can't make it to work ), and i assure you, it was still just as awesome as it was when i played it the first time.
If anything DX has aged insanely well, graphics are bad, but they always were, voice acting is lackluster, but it always was (and i kind of love the voice acting, the monotone from JC, Gunthers accent "I wanted orange"), but the gameplay, story, characters, all that really matters, is still as awesome as it was.

2. Smart AI makes for frustrating gameplay? Wtf?

4. He means that shooting was the only way to go late game, and that the levels were far more linear. Personally, with ballistic shielding augs, health regen and a lightsaber I did just fine on my second go, but the first time with a silenced assault rifle was easier, and more satisfying.

[Shinrei]

Originally Posted by Nyysjan

Last time i played the original DX through was less than a year ago (have since switched to win7 from xp, now i can't make it to work ), and i assure you, it was still just as awesome as it was when i played it the first time.
If anything DX has aged insanely well, graphics are bad, but they always were, voice acting is lackluster, but it always was (and i kind of love the voice acting, the monotone from JC, Gunthers accent "I wanted orange"), but the gameplay, story, characters, all that really matters, is still as awesome as it was.

How true....playing through DX every two years or so and it's still insanely fun and atmospheric as in the good old days (about 10years ago...huh).

I'm running it on Vista Ultimate and Home Premium (Notebook) and it works all fine for me... i use Kentie's fixes, they should work on both systems (Vista and Win7). Just give it a try...altough the font ingame is a little bit too small sometimes on wide screen. But it's definitely worth it to play DX on newer machines as it was back in the days...