"THIEF" - Your current THOUGHTS & SUGGESTIONS & CONCERNS - All General Discussion - Page 20

Hypevosa · #**476** 07-27-2010, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFSOCC

"that is not yours" -"please sir I am hungry!"
exactly the same cutscene of how garett got into the keepers in game 1, is shown at the end of Deadly shadows, with Garett in the role of keeper this time, and an unnamed girl in the role of Garett.

Or Garrett may simply have seen the irony of the situation and gone with the moment - which wouldn't surprise me at all.

Could he pass things onto the girl? sure. Will he? it's impossible to say because we aren't the devs. All we of the fan community can do is speculate.

I, personally, think he may entertain the idea of teaching the girl... but I've no idea if his character is so different from the way it was that he would do it.

Right up until after the museum job I feel that Garrett is, for the most part, the Garrett we've all known from the previous games. The old Garrett, I'd say would never take an apprentice... ever. However, after the museum job he feels to have changed to me, and I haven't experienced the changed Garrett enough to say what he'd do given the situation.

That's the vibe I get at least... does anyone else feel that he seems to have changed midway through TDS?

Namdrol · #**477** 07-27-2010, 03:04 PM

I think a lot of things have been profoundly misunderstood.

JFSOCC · #**478** 07-27-2010, 04:31 PM

Nothing changed in his heart, which is why he gave the chalice back to the builders and the jacknells paw back to the order of the vine?

You guys are quick to say I am the one who has profoundly misunderstood things. I feel, perhaps, it may be the other way around. at least, I support it with what I consider to be an indication. circumstantial evidence sure. but from a narrative point of view, the scene copy, is something that in the heroic epic is well, sort of a meme.

also, that scene, I've looked it up on youtube, Garett has a key branded on his hand. I haven't paid attention to it, but I haven't seen that on his hand before.

anyway, if I could explain it this way, so could others. so for a story plot, it's not that unlikely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSET0AZfbyE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQPh43xvnI8

you're right in it not being Identical.

btw... "You have talent" says Garett. now why would he mention that if he is not at least considering teaching the girl
"It's no easy thing, to, see a keeper" (camera zooms in on his hand, with the keeper symbol branded on it) <- suggests that he is a keeper, and considers himself one

Hypevosa · #**479** 07-27-2010, 04:37 PM

Garrett could have given back the paw and the chalice because they'd be impossible to sell, and they would mean nothing except that the Hammers and the Pagans would be all over his ass and making his life difficult if he kept them.

You'll notice it doesn't show him returning the heart, or the crown. 2 very valuable items.

What on earth happens with the eye, is what most of us would like to know.

And, yeah, he was branded as the one true keeper - but he was and is the one true keeper. The brand doesn't actually change anything, just mark him as such.

JFSOCC · #**480** 07-27-2010, 04:40 PM

Well, from my perspective, and this is not meant to offend, your reasonings sounds like excuses for you not wanting it to be so, more than that it's likely that it is not so.

Vae · #**481** 07-27-2010, 04:45 PM

The scene with the Girl is nothing more than a moment of reflection. It showed how far Garrett had come in his journey through life...nothing more. Garrett is a lone wolf, and would never take on an apprentice...period. To not understand this, is to not understand Garrett's story and personal nature. To want the Girl as an apprentice, is to advocate a corruption of THIEF, even if this is unintentional.

Again, the curse of the misunderstood Girl haunts this forum seemingly without end...by those who are unable or unwilling to see her within the greater context...

JFSOCC · #**482** 07-27-2010, 04:49 PM

I see you're not even willing to consider it. You have made up your mind a long time ago, and arguing is pointless because I would be talking to deaf ears.

Even Garett will some day die, what then?

I do think the reflection on how far he has come in life is a good point, I just don't see it as being mutually exclusive.

Hypevosa · #**483** 07-27-2010, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFSOCC

Well, from my perspective, and this is not meant to offend, your reasonings sounds like excuses for you not wanting it to be so, more than that it's likely that it is not so.

Well then if Garrett's changed so much, why did he not return the other artifacts?

Why does Garrett look almost sinister when he grins while reciting what was recited to him as a boy?

I'd say, more than anything, that the look on his face at that last movie still means he's the cynical, sarcastic old Garrett we all know and love, and is enjoying the irony of the moment.

The real answer to both sides, is that we don't know what is true. These stories were probably not fleshed out at all, and the story simply doesn't exist. If someone wants, they can buy the rights to the thief series and write the fiction as they see fit, and suddenly that is what's cannon, we'll find out, or we won't, in thief 4.

JFSOCC · #**484** 07-27-2010, 04:55 PM

thanks, I'm willing to accept that. that does mean, that what I mention, should at least be considered.

I do not believe there needs to be a sea change in order for a person to change. what I mean by that is that, unlike House from season one to two, people who do change, don't go from being a cynical misanthrope to being a optimistic joie de vie filanthrope overnight. You don't need much change, a little is a start.

previously, someone mentioned that this would be a corruption of Garett... well, that could be a story hook too, no?

Vae · #**485** 07-27-2010, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFSOCC

I see you're not even willing to consider it. You have made up your mind a long time ago, and arguing is pointless because I would be talking to deaf ears.

This conclusion isn't arbitrary, it comes from thorough discussion of the meaning of the Girl in relation to Garrett. But if you have some enlightening discovery to prove otherwise, I'd like to hear it.

Quote:

Even Garett will some day die, what then?

He dies...your point?

Quote:

I do think the reflection on how far he has come in life is a good point, I just don't see it as being mutually exclusive.

The difference is in understanding Garrett's personal nature, as depicted throughout the story. If one chooses not take this into account, leaving that key factor neutral, then one may mistakenly believe that Garrett would take on an apprentice.

JFSOCC · #**486** 07-27-2010, 05:13 PM

first point: this discussion, your conclusions, I do not share them. I don't think my view is less worthy of consideration than yours, yet I feel like the words I write are treated like heresy.

second point: my point is: who would remain to keep the balance after Garett is gone?

last point: Growth is an important part of character development, you're arguing (or appear to be to me) that Garett doesn't change, that makes him into a type, not a character, I find that simply unlikely. I thought the girl scene actually did signify some growth on the part of Garett.

~~Also, if Garett is referred to as both betrayer and brother, doesn't that imply that there remains a brotherhood? you can't have a brotherhood of one.~~ nvm.

Rieknor · #**487** 07-27-2010, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

-Multiple ways of entry in missions

I'm gonna stop on that one.

In "The bloodline opal" in TDS you can see this but what I dindt like about it is that you can easly find them.

I'll add this

"-Multiple,hidden and hard ways of entry in missions."

I guess if there's a mansion with 2 guards in the front gate they won't leave an open window right next to it

Vae · #**488** 07-27-2010, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFSOCC

this discussion, your conclusions, I do not share them. I don't think my view is less worthy of consideration than yours, yet I feel like the words I write are treated like heresy.

Because it is heresy, albeit unintentional. The Girl apprentice notion has been considered, and after review, has been recognized to impose a corruption upon Garrett's character. This is realized by those who understand his basic nature.

Quote:

Growth is an important part of character development, you're arguing (or appear to be to me) that Garett doesn't change, that makes him into a type, not a character, I find that simply unlikely. I thought the girl scene actually did signify some growth on the part of Garett.

Character development is an important and welcomed part of things, as long as it remains within the believable context of a character's fundamental sensibilities. Garrett is lone wolf, and would never consider taking an apprentice, as this goes against his very nature. If Garrett had a different intrinsic nature, the possibility of an apprentice could be a reasonable one, but alas, this is not the case.

The writers of the next chapter of THIEF can write the story however they like. But if they decide to bring in ideas that are inconsistent with the THIEF universe, and insist on those that are contrary to Garrett's basic nature, then corruption will occur, and this will ultimately diminish the integrity and believability of the story.

Rieknor · #**489** 07-27-2010, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vae

Because it is heresy, albeit unintentional. The Girl apprentice notion has been considered, and after review, has been recognized to impose a corruption upon Garrett's character. This is realized by those who understand his basic nature.

Allways someone comes up with this crap...

I agree with that of the Garret's nature but I think the girl can be useful for Garret and I think that Garret think so too.

Keep her away to not invlucrate her with him at all but close enough to get stuff from her, maps, information, little things like keys and stuff from the streets.

Asadar · #**490** 07-27-2010, 11:38 PM

I agree with that point but... once again this discussion turns in circles.

Well, I know the answer: "It's a way to avoid the conversation, because you do not want the girl, etc.." or "We must not listened to those who speak about her, etc..".

Okay, I'm not a old member of this forum, and I do not always give clear advice, because I am struggling to speak English as well. Sure, it's the right of all to give an opinion, I do not dispute this point, the forum exists for that and the girl is a legitimate subject.

But it is precisely this that makes me sad : I just find painful to read always the same arguments (on both sides!), especially since I'm not English, and a page full of frizz chinions is a bit tiring.

Is there not already a topic dedicated specifically to the girl? That way we avoid having duplicate or triplicate, and for those who want to discuss, it's their right, they can do it on the dedicaced topic.

This is not a repproche, but a comment. I just hope we can see a little more clear on the forum.

Asadar · #**491** 07-27-2010, 11:58 PM

Thanks jtr7.

Rieknor · #**492** 07-28-2010, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtr7

What Vae said does not in any way contradict what you just said, and if you've paid attention, you know we don't mind her as just another contact of his many contacts, but nothing special, not a good pal, not a student, not a daughter, or any of the things we are actually saying we don't want.

Yeah, i said "allways someone comes up the the girl crap" i didnt ment what Vae said.

Im tired to hear allways the same.

I just said once again my thoughts about the girl.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rieknor

Allways someone comes up with this crap...(this is about the girl disscusion)

I agree with that of the Garret's nature but I think the girl can be useful for Garret and I think that Garret think so too.(this is about Vae)

Keep her away to not invlucrate her with him at all but close enough to get stuff from her, maps, information, little things like keys and stuff from the streets.(this are my other thoughts)

Just that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asadar

I agree with that point but... once again this discussion turns in circles.

Well, I know the answer: "It's a way to avoid the conversation, because you do not want the girl, etc.." or "We must not listened to those who speak about her, etc..".

Okay, I'm not a old member of this forum, and I do not always give clear advice, because I am struggling to speak English as well. Sure, it's the right of all to give an opinion, I do not dispute this point, the forum exists for that and the girl is a legitimate subject.

But it is precisely this that makes me sad : I just find painful to read always the same arguments (on both sides!), especially since I'm not English, and a page full of frizz chinions is a bit tiring.

Is there not already a topic dedicated specifically to the girl? That way we avoid having duplicate or triplicate, and for those who want to discuss, it's their right, they can do it on the dedicaced topic.

This is not a repproche, but a comment. I just hope we can see a little more clear on the forum.

I agree in every word. ja

English is not my lenguage either and read 2 pages about the girl, wich all the arguments are very clear its a real pain in the ass to me.
I must be honest, i dont read them

Platinumoxicity · #**493** 07-28-2010, 02:14 AM

Rieknor, don't triple-post. Combine your responses to one post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hypevosa

That's the vibe I get at least... does anyone else feel that Garrett seems to have changed midway through TDS?

I think Garrett changed dramatically somewhere between the end of Thief 2 and the beginning of TDS. Garrett became slightly interested in the prophecies after the death of Viktoria and Karras, but it seems like the Keepers didn't let him see the prophecies, so Garrett was once again "Whatever." and went back to his life, for example doing the Bloodline Opal -job. But somehow his anticipation about being allowed to see the prophecies grew to such extent that he was willing to risk his life twice on difficult and dangerous missions to be even allowed inside the keeper library. I don't understand that. Garrett had always hated the keepers, so what made him so interested in getting to read a few books? Or was it just the prophecy of the True Keeper that was literally controlling his mind to forcefully fulfilling his destiny?

Nightwynd · #**494** 07-28-2010, 02:24 AM

JFSOCC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asadar

--once again this discussion turns in circles.

Well, I know the answer: "It's a way to avoid the conversation, because you do not want the girl, etc.." or "We must not listened to those who speak about her, etc..".

--

But it is precisely this that makes me sad : I just find painful to read always the same arguments (on both sides!), especially since I'm not English, and a page full of frizz chinions is a bit tiring.

Is there not already a topic dedicated specifically to the girl? That way we avoid having duplicate or triplicate, and for those who want to discuss, it's their right, they can do it on the dedicaced topic.--:

I suggest you go through the threads jtr7 posted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFSOCC

--I believe deadly shadows to be superior in almost every way--
-- not to listen to the fans too much--.
--fanservice has rarely improved a game--

It's a widely if not fully agreed opinion that T4 shouldn't be fanservice. No-one wants this to be fanservice but a strong Thief game. This forum was created to hear opinions of the fans. Seemingly, the majority of the fans tend to appreciate more of the two originals.

You are entitled to your opinion fully, but you are contradicting yourself I believe. You are a fan of the 3rd installment. I picked up thief back at '98 at the age of 11. I couldn't even imagine what my "side" would be had I played Deadly Shadows first. Having played TDP and TMA first I was expecting something better to be achieved with new age technology. I was disappointed. It is pointed out here even on this forum that The Deadly Shadows was rushed out and the low-point of the series. Even in the minds of the dev's. (I know, forgive my use of Italic.)

I appreciate you elaborating your points and not making this complete exhange of aspersion from both sides. But I'd like to see you breaking down why you think DS is superior in every way.

You discussed the Thief shifting towards an open world setting. You also proposed adding more RPG elements. IMHO if this is something that belongs to some other franchise than Thief. There's nothing wrong if the levels are presented in a non-linear order. The levels themselves being non-linear is more than enough. Actually, it's usually stronger way in means of story-telling and immersion. No need for distracting the player's attention with just lots-o'-stuff. I know it's cool visiting Garrett's home but what's the point? It can be done away like it was in T2's Ambush!. That way Garrett's home doesn't get old at any point.
I don't see a way to implement an open world in a way that it isn't too overwhelmingly big or that isn't a repetitious and obligatory level between levels. I wouldn't see Thief having a Sandbox syndrome. DS did open world thusly: "Open" City in really dumbed down sense, then linear running-in-a-tube mission carrying the plot. That's a mistake considering the franchise that always had big non-linear levels.
If an open world can be implemented in a way that it is really working, is awesome and doesn't get boring and old then fine.

Still, I will say this: If protagonist is changed, it must take distance to Garrett. It must be someone completely different. Maybe even a different city in that case. It would be even more disappointing to see "the torch passed" to someone utterly unknown waif after series of 3 games of Garrett - thusly taking every bit of edge and mystery away. Thief has been always about being a lone wolf, sneaking alone in first person

And the comment about localizing games. I don't see anything wrong with that. I'm not a native english speaker - I think Thief was a great asset for my English. Since English is still the international language for communication I see no problem at all.

Rieknor · #**495** 07-28-2010, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

Rieknor, don't triple-post. Combine your responses to one post.

I think Garrett changed dramatically somewhere between the end of Thief 2 and the beginning of TDS. Garrett became slightly interested in the prophecies after the death of Viktoria and Karras, but it seems like the Keepers didn't let him see the prophecies, so Garrett was once again "Whatever." and went back to his life, for example doing the Bloodline Opal -job. But somehow his anticipation about being allowed to see the prophecies grew to such extent that he was willing to risk his life twice on difficult and dangerous missions to be even allowed inside the keeper library. I don't understand that. Garrett had always hated the keepers, so what made him so interested in getting to read a few books? Or was it just the prophecy of the True Keeper that was literally controlling his mind to forcefully fulfilling his destiny?

All set

In certain point i think its that, and of course Viktoria and Karras' death had a lot to do about it.

After, what you call "whatever" time, he is interesed in the prophecies becouse he need them to know what to do with Gammal. Although I dont think he just "forgot" about the prophecies when the Keepers didnt show him the books. And that "whatever" attitude was to hide his real thoughts and not show himself TOO MUCH interesed about the Keepers.

Platinumoxicity · #**496** 07-28-2010, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rieknor

In certain point i think its that, and of course Viktoria and Karras' death had a lot to do about it.

After, what you call "whatever" time, he is interesed in the prophecies becouse he need them to know what to do with Gammal. Although I dont think he just "forgot" about the prophecies when the Keepers didnt show him the books. And that "whatever" attitude was to hide his real thoughts and not show himself TOO MUCH interesed about the Keepers.

No one knew about Gamall's corruption until Garrett went to the Shalebrige Cradle. Gamall had manipulated the prophecies, masqueraded as Caduca to give orders to Keeper Orland, who then passed the orders of Gamall to Artemus, who then told Garrett to acquire the artifacts and in exchange for that Garrett would be allowed to enter the libraries.

But I still don't think that Garrett had some mental instabilities, that he knew that he was the true keeper but subconsciously denied it. I don't think that fits with his character, and I don't see how a delusion like that could have been established during the series. In my view he simply thought that he was a regular master thief that the keepers were exploiting for his abilities. But Garrett was wrong all along, and the keepers were also oblivious to the truth because Gamall was hiding it. Garrett's appearance in the prophecies was puzzling to the keepers, so they decided to keep an eye on him. Keeper Orland in the end of TDS ultimately found out the truth, and Garrett finally accepted what he had always been. In fact, before the last moments of TDS no one knew the true purpose of Garrett, not even Garrett himself.

JFSOCC · #**497** 07-28-2010, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vae

Because it is heresy, albeit unintentional. The Girl apprentice notion has been considered, and after review, has been recognized to impose a corruption upon Garrett's character. This is realized by those who understand his basic nature.

Character development is an important and welcomed part of things, as long as it remains within the believable context of a character's fundamental sensibilities. Garrett is lone wolf, and would never consider taking an apprentice, as this goes against his very nature. If Garrett had a different intrinsic nature, the possibility of an apprentice could be a reasonable one, but alas, this is not the case.

The writers of the next chapter of THIEF can write the story however they like. But if they decide to bring in ideas that are inconsistent with the THIEF universe, and insist on those that are contrary to Garrett's basic nature, then corruption will occur, and this will ultimately diminish the integrity and believability of the story.

ugh, I am not having this conversation here AND in PM.
You guys are very sure of yourself, to the point of being religious. that you might be wrong is not even entering your mind. I do not support your conclusions, even after having heard your arguments. that should tell you not to be too fast in your beliefs.