"THIEF" - Your current THOUGHTS & SUGGESTIONS & CONCERNS - All General Discussion

[Viktoria]

If you intend to create a list of different aspects you would like to see in the new Thief game, then this is the thread to use.

If you wish only to discuss one particular aspect of the game, then please check "Keeper Diary" thread to locate a specific topic, and post in there.

This will help keep threads organised so the dev team can read content with speed and ease. Thank you for your cooperation.

[Platinumoxicity]

This could be a thread where everyone can make clear lists about their suggestions without bashing others' suggestions, so that you could really "add up" all of them, and see which suggestions really are more popular. For example, even though some might bring up stuff like RPG elements or 3rd person perspective, there's going to be an overwhelming amount of suggestions against those. Without arguing, and instead by indirect "voting".

(I'm going to edit this post afterwards to include my list but It's too late at night and I need to go to sleep.)


The list:

Absolute requirements for a game that dares to call itself "Thief 4":

• Rope arrows.
• Swimming.
• Garrett.
• The rest of the obvious.

Essentials (Things that I consider as important as the obvious):

• Stephen Russell as Garrett

• The original Thief 2 -weapon and equipment selection. The sword, blackjack, broadhead-, water-, moss-, fire-, gas-, rope-, vine-, and noisemaker arrows. Also the scouting orb, explosive-, gas-, and flashmines, flashbomb, healing-, speed-, breath-, slowfall-, and invisibility potion, and flares.

• Improved AI - The AI needs to be able to to navigate all areas within the game world. If there is a low enough wall that an armored guard could climb on top of it, he needs to be able to. Also ladders make no sense if nobody but the player can use them. They must also know how to use elevators. The guards should know how to shout for help if they find Garrett. Shouting carries a long way especially in an environment with an echo. The guards should know which areas are impossible to get out of if the player happens to hide in those spots. Even if the guards can't see the player, they know that there's no way out of there other than through them. Also the player should be able to trick pursuing guards to continue pursuit by shaking them off in a corner and hiding in some dark nook. The guards should also be able to go get a new torch to replace an extinguished one, and get suspiscious if many torches in an area have been extinguished. Guards also should go around telling all the other guards to be more alert if someone has spotted an intruder.

• Fluid and responsive controls. The movement of the player model needs to be controlled by the player's movement, not the other way around. The movement needs to be an imporved version of the movement in Thief 2, like for example improved mantling as is in The Dark Mod. The only thing that should be able to influence Garrett's movement should be the player's exact input, the axial restrictions of climbing ropes and ladders, and the laws of physics. No fancy animations, no locking the player in place to execute a series of animations or to play a minigame, but total immersion. Weapons should be dynamic, not automatic. You should be able to miss someone's head when you try to blackjack them.

• Improved inventory system. The system in Thief 1 and 2 was good and simple, but it was not perfect. Objects like keys should be more easily accessable, like for example they could have their own menu hotkey, that scrolls the inventory to the first key on the list. Same with weapon-items and other items. All items should be droppable. All of them. Loot stat could have a hold-key that let's you check out how much gold, gems, goods and total loot you have, without switching the item you have selected. The compass in TDS was good, except it could be a bit smaller and to-the-point. The visibility gem should revert back to the classic one, with the general lightness indicator (black-orange-red) on the side.

• Ghostability. Every mission needs to be ghostable on the highest difficulty. There could be some loot locations that are impossible to reach without knocking someone out, but you'll just have to deal with only stealing the amount required and not all if you wish to ghost. Most importantly, no mission should have an objective that requires you to harm any AI in any way, or to draw attention to your presence. You should be able to finish the game without anyone seeing a glimpse of you. It doesn't mean that you get perfect stats, but the main thing is that you made through with 0 violence and 0 alerts.

• The general "Thiefy" look and feel of missions. No more blue&blueish color schemes. Bring back the variety in architecture like it was in Thief 1.

• Maps that actually represent the building that you're supposed to be navigating, and are not just vague shapes with things written on them. Nobody writes "where am I?" on a map.

• The same kind of movement audibility system as was in T1&T2. The slower you move, the more silent you are. Walking on stone makes no noise at all, while it's almost impossible to be silent on loose gravel. Running or jumping around on grass shouldn't make any noise, and on carpet it could be slightly more audible, like for example jumping could alert a guard right next to you. Also the "convenient bug" in the Dark Engine allowed the player to silently lower himself from ledges by being in crouched position when doing it. That should be programmed as a genuine feature. On top of all, the only way for the player to move completely silently across loud surfaces should be by the use of moss arrows. No more instant silence creep- or crouch-modes.

• No obvious hints in missions. The only way to locate a place or an item should be by reading the information present from the beginning and briefing of the mission, vague clues in-game readables and conversations, and logical reasoning based on the structure of the building/area. There should be no highlights that show what you need to take or what to activate.


General suggestions (that are not necessary but are nice improvements)

• Improved replayability via randomization. All the levels could have a dozen different spawn points for each normal loot item. The specific item could spawn randomly to these locations upon start of the mission. For example a bottle of fine wine could be found either on the kitchen table, the wine cellar cabinet, or on the desk in the houseowner's study. Also some mission-critical information like for example the deposit-box records in "First City Bank & Trust" shouldn't be in 1 place at every play-through. Guards could sometimes deviate from their patrol routes and sit down and rest a moment, making the player wait for him to move along, or giving the player an opportunity to access an area that was previously hard to get to with the guard patrolling close by. Locks that you could pick could have randomized tumblers, but locks with the same key should have the same tumblers. Basically for each key there could a different randomized lock. The mandatory "scary level" could have events that happen in random. For example sometimes when you enter a room you can see a shape moving past the window outside, and sometimes not. And sometimes you could hear footsteps in the room next door or right behind you.

• Expanded loadout system. You should be able to choose which non-mission-critical items you want to take and which ones to leave home. Instead of the "Items on sale", "Items purchased" and "inventory" -screens there should be "Items available" (Which includes items you have purchased or removed from your inventory) "Items on sale" and "Inventory" -screens. You could freely buy stuff as well as remove stuff that you have in your inventory. But you shouldn't be able to sell equipment. Also, loot that you haven't spent shouldn't carry over missions, so that the designers can determine the prefect loadout possibilities for each mission, preserving the gameplay balance.

• All locks have a key somewhere. What good is a door or a chest if only a thief can open it, when the lock is there specifically to prevent that?

• Logical building design. The player should be able to determine by the general description of a building what exactly might be in it. A house has a kitchen, a bedroom and a cleaning closet. An attic window indicates the presence of an attic. A large building with lots of guards has guard barracks, and the amount of beds in the barracks indicate the amount of guards. If the chef is not in the kitchen and the wine closet is locked, most likely the chef is sleeping in his quarters and the key can be found there. The discrepancy in wall thicknesses seen on the map indicate that there might be pipes going inside the wall. If there's no reason for there to be pipes, there might be a secret passage. But none of this is told to the player directly. One must think in order to notice these things.

• New and very different non-human AI, with unique behavior. For example a creature like the "grues" in Pitch Black... they could see anyone even in total darkness, but only if you move. Or hive-minded creatures that all have a combined perception and awareness. Clever predators that once they have discovered you act like they haven't, and once you put your guard down they attack you from the back silently and with deadly force.

• No location indication on the maps. The only location marked on the map should be the place where you start. Although this might be dumb because you draw the map as you go anyway, so Garrett always knows where he is even if the player wouldn't have a clue.

Nice ideas that might fit well in a Thief game but take extra effort to implement:

• Full-Dynamic body awareness & 3rd person perspective for those who want it. The 1st person camera could be the "vessel" that drives the movements of the 3rd person model. The model could have dynamicity with the level architecture, like preventing the model's feet from stepping off a steep cliff, positioning feet accordingly when walking up or down stairs or slopes, and there could be a dynamic free transition from standard sneaking to "wall-hugging" when approaching a wall. The lock-picking could have dynamic hands that position themselves onto the lock in question, without locking the player in place when picking the lock so that the player could quickly move away from the lock in an emergency. With dynamicity like this that 1st person camera would work perfectly just like it does in games like Half-Life and Thief 1&2, but at the same time the 3rd person movement would look really good and be much more playable than in most 3rd person games.

• Human eye behavior. A graphical feature. What it does is simply blur the vision based on the luminosity of the area being observed. When you're standing in a dimly lit hallway it's impossible to see clearly to the end of the hallway. As you move closer, the static blurring algorithm still blurs the scenery but it has less effect when you're observing things from a shorter distance.

• Expanded AI character behavior. If there are 2 guards in a room, they don't need to be standing in 1 spot at all times. One could be sitting on a bench having a cigarette, and the other could be leaning to a wall digging under his fingernails. And people don't need to face eachother in a military-style conversation between a private and a colonel, standing in attention, looking straight in the eye and waiting for their turn to speak their line. There could be random conversations between guards and they don't need to face eachother to talk to one another. Slight eye contact is fine. Things like this are important for a Thief game because most of your time is spent on observing these people from the shadows. Far Cry 2 had random dynamic behavior like this but it was a pointless detail in an action-heavy console shooter like that.

• "Euphoria" -dynamic character physics engine. Creates an intermediary between an animated AI character and it's physics-based ragdoll in suitable situations.

[DarknessFalls]

What was the intent of making this new thread? I'm sure your intentions are good, lady of the Vine, but I feel like a year's worth of posts are possibly being tossed aside for us to start over at square one. ?

(Edited post since Viktoria has revised the thread's title and clarified the intent)

[Viktoria]

Panic not.
This new thread is not an accident and, no, the devs don't expect everyone to repost all their thoughts over the past year.

The original thread has not been 'tossed aside' as you suggest. It is still linked to via Keeper Diary, so the dev team can still find and read it very easily as they have already done.
This new thread is also linked to from KD. Best of both worlds really - as was the intention.


Just see it as an opportunity to read fresh or refined ideas from others, and also to expand upon your own thoughts more concisely, if you wish.

[BigCole]

You know what I really hope? I really hope this forum is a giant dog and pony circus and the developers have already made up their minds that they've decided to stop living in the late 90's and the Windows 98 era and they loved TDS but realized it only need to be focused on the PC and needed one more layer of polish and they bring everything great about that into Thief 4.

[DarknessFalls]

You know what's funny is if T1 and T2 were simply to be made on modern-day gaming engine with the latest/greatest graphics, the T3 fans who make fun of T1/T2 would probably see the earlier games are more polished, sophisticated and fun than most any game on the market. Way more advanced than TDS. They're too stuck on the dated graphics to see the true depth of the game.

EM, make T4 be just like T1/T2 in style, size, detail and sophistication. Simply update the graphics (including more interaction with the environment, and a livelier environment) and make new levels, and watch how T3 fans like it much better than T3 and fail to realize it's just like T1/T2 in every respect except graphics.

It'll also be funny to watch T4 newcomers to the series make fun of T3, simply because of T3's dated graphics. T3 fans will say, "But it was a great game!" T4 newcomers won't get past the dated graphics. And if they do, they will make fun of the fairly poor gameplay.

I don't hate T3. Taking graphics out of the equation, I just don't think it's very good compared to the quality of the rest of the series. And as a standalone game, it has a lot of shortcomings and failures that make it not very fun to play more than once. Add the graphics back into the equation and it's still not that great of game because the graphics aren't anything to write home about. Too 3-D plasticized cartoony for me,. and the color palette is cold and boring when used through the entire game.

I can understand why folks would love T3. But I think you're missing out on T1/T2, primarily because you can't get past the dated graphics. I can understand that, too; sometimes I'm the same way. It's hard for me to go back and enjoy an old game if I didn't play it back when it was first out on the market. But I do sometimes wish T3 were never made, so the series wouldn't have such a divergence of opinions going into T4.

[BigCole]

Why I like Thief 3 has nothing to do with graphics (ok that's not true but it's far from the main reason). The biggest reason I enjoy TDS is the open city world. I loved the storyline, I liked the faction system (and have no idea how people managed to get on both of their good sides the first time they played through; my first time the Pagans HATED me). The gloves were okay, I'd like to see gloves and rope arrows (they both have their place). I also loved TDS because it felt like a true sequel in every way to TDP. TMA felt like an annoying expansion pack.

[massimilianogoi]

Originally Posted by DarknessFalls

... Add the graphics back into the equation and it's still not that great of game because the graphics aren't anything to write home about. Too 3-D plasticized cartoony for me,. and the color palette is cold and boring when used through the entire game...

Nono, comparing it with games of that age (2004) and also actual games, it's a lot better. That cartoony graphic was something I was fallen in love with, and no, the color palette isn't cold at all. And, just yesterday, I noticed how good the docks textures was realized. And the NPCs textures too. After that, in 2004, games with ragdoll system, for how many raw it could be, there weren't so much (thing that get the two previous games crappy, with just pre-rendered animation for the death-unconsciousness scene). After that, we have TO ADMIT that the actors's work in Thief - Deadly Shadows was GREAT!!!! The lines of the speeches was alot superior than the previous two chapters. But, apparently, those who hasn't played TDS, or that has played just a bit, cannot understand. I am a fan mission developer for TDS, so I know very well what I am talking about. Thief - Deadly Shadows was an amazing game, superior than the other two chapters, Ion Storm at that age, was at the top of the technology developing.

What to say about Thief - The Dark Project?? Awful sounds sampling, triangular hands/feets, NPCs movements that seemed puppets, awful coloured textures, mouse wheel neither implemented (thanks the gods someone realized AutoHotkey who supplies this function), the greatest part of the room squarry, with simple architectures and half-empty. I didn't enjoy Thief - The Dark Project too much.. I preferred Thief - The Metal Age: better designed, and with the greatest storyline ever, even better than the TDS one.

The only flaws that were present in TDS were that Garret couldn't swim, or use rope arrows, and the too slow, and too few controllable, ladders climbing animations, and some, rare, bad done cutscenes (but this happened also in the first two games). For all the other, Thief - Deadly Shadows was a perfect game.

Originally Posted by BigCole

Why I like Thief 3 has nothing to do with graphics (ok that's not true but it's far from the main reason). The biggest reason I enjoy TDS is the open city world. I loved the storyline, I liked the faction system (and have no idea how people managed to get on both of their good sides the first time they played through; my first time the Pagans HATED me).

You had just to shoot the moss arrow onto the marked corner stone, or in that construction made with eggs and elephant's teeth

[DarknessFalls]

Good posts. I don't agree with the sentiment, but good, nonetheless.

But , BigCole, what is so "1998" besides the graphics? I'd classify Mass' comments as graphics-related (would be fixed in modern day) and open world doesn't bring it up-to-date automatically. And there are plenty of FPS and other games that don't have open world. "Dated" seems like a low shot on something that can't be controlled. It's almost like saying an old classic "best movie of all time" sucks simply because it is dated. So in terms of everything else the T1/T2 games are, it's almost a moot point. If you were to update the graphics, the gameplay (without open world) would be better and higher quality, better replayability, than most any game. If T1/T2 were to get with the times with other FPSs, we'd be looking at a fully scripted, more modern day or futuristic linear game, 8 hours long, like we're watching a movie. That's the recipe for most modern day shooters. Oh, and there would be a "Thieves vs. Guards" fast-paced multiplayer crossbow, gun, lasers and bomb fest. That's not really what I want...

[Viktoria]

^ Thank you for including Dominus's Wishlist.

Anyone who hasn't read it, really should.

[Rieknor]

I'd like if there's a notes section where you can write the important notes, but just in the notes section, not in the actuall map.

I liked the map sistem in TMA, but it was to easy to know where are you and where were you. I think the maps should be like TDP.

[Psychomorph]

Originally Posted by Rieknor

I liked the map sistem in TMA, but it was to easy to know where are you and where were you. I think the maps should be like TDP.

Agree. They made it so, because TMA maps were large, but it still felt way to systematic.

[BigCole]

That wishlist repeats itself at least 3 times and is very predictable. Everything about TDS = bad. Everything about 1&2 = good.

Yawn.

Except the using rope arrows as ziplines and trip wires. That's pretty cool. But then again if I had suggested that you would have said I didn't like Thief and what makes Thief great and "nonsense! Rope arrows are only TO BE USED AS ROPES!!111111"

[Slither]

I'd like the devs to play T1 and T2 often and watch the cut-scenes even more frequently. Get the mood, the darkness, the grittiness, the mystery, the dash of magic. And if possible, make the game flexible enough to please the PC players who elevated this game to its current cult status and yet make it playable to console players to get new fans, without goofy compromises like giant fonts and glinting loot.

Don't try to be everything to everyone, though. To quote Joel Hodgson when asked about MST3K's quirky humor, "We don't worry about who will get the jokes. The right people will get the jokes." In other words, don't make thief into something it's not -- high action, rampant killing. It's a cerebral, slow-paced game. It's fun on a different level. Trust that the right people will get it and new folks will appreciate it if you play to these strengths.

But of course, with this lousy economy this might all be a dream. The bean counters might push hard to give Thief 4 "wide appeal," therefore making the PC the red-headed step-child, yet again.

[Platinumoxicity]

This thread is not about disagreeing with someone's ideas and repeating the same discussions over and over. This thread is about everyone's ideas. Keep it simple. If someone's ideas are stupid, they're not shared by many and will not stand out in this thread.

BigCole, make your own list. And jtr7, stfu. -Just kidding... You make your own list too.

[massimilianogoi]

Originally Posted by DarknessFalls

I'd classify Mass' comments as graphics-related (would be fixed in modern day) and open world doesn't bring it up-to-date automatically. And there are plenty of FPS and other games that don't have open world. "Dated" seems like a low shot on something that can't be controlled. It's almost like saying an old classic "best movie of all time" sucks simply because it is dated. So in terms of everything else the T1/T2 games are, it's almost a moot point. If you were to update the graphics, the gameplay (without open world) would be better and higher quality, better replayability, than most any game. If T1/T2 were to get with the times with other FPSs, we'd be looking at a fully scripted, more modern day or futuristic linear game, 8 hours long, like we're watching a movie. That's the recipe for most modern day shooters. Oh, and there would be a "Thieves vs. Guards" fast-paced multiplayer crossbow, gun, lasers and bomb fest. That's not really what I want...

If you take a look at my comments, you will never see the word 'dated', since it's not stricly important when a game is released, but its quality is!

Sincerely, I have not understood your meaning about the "open world": all three games have scenes in open world.

Originally Posted by VIKTORIA

^ Thank you for including Dominus's Wishlist.

Anyone who hasn't read it, really should.

I've read it, and it has some enormous flaws, this is one of the greatest:

 I hope they steer clear of the "stores" that existed in TDS. It veered too close to giving Thief RPG qualities, and it made equipment purchasing pointless when you could just buy 50 water arrows at any given time. Buying tools and such should be mission-centric, otherwise you might as well have Garrett going out and paying rent, buying a beer at the Crippled Burrick, or dropping some coin at the local brothel.

The stores and the fencers were a GREAT addition to the game, instade of the factitious system to select weapon just before the missions. Besides, in the reality if you would use some weapon you must have money to buy it, and money has to be done by selling some of your stealings to the fences...

And:

The automated black-jacking in T3 annoyed me, players should be capable of knocking someone out by themselves (if the creators think not, then have a tutorial training like in the original, which explains it all)

What this means??? Automated black-jacking?? You wasn't forced to blackjack anyone, it was alway one of your decisions if doing it or not. I think that guy referred to the automated clubbing animation, that is, yes, very bad done: if you put yourself aside the NPC, then blackjack it, it positions just with the back towards you, as if it wants to be blackjacked.. hahaha that was very raw, even if it's Thief Deadly Shadows.

[Flashart]

I think EM will have already decided whether to improve upon TDS or continue in classic TMA style.
From the tiny comment about having some RPG element involved, I'd prefer if it was a limited slot inventory, but I'd wager they go for a "multiple story path".
If they did that, would you prefer to see a "light/dark" (good vs evil Garrett) path, or "violent/nonviolent" path or a "faction siding path" ...etc?
Faction siding might be okay as you'd get a few different missions, but then I reckon you could kiss goodbye to the Editor.

[massimilianogoi]

Originally Posted by Flashart

...From the tiny comment about having some RPG element involved, I'd prefer if it was a limited slot inventory, but I'd wager they go for a "multiple story path"...

Hmm?? You meant that you prefer the T1/T2 buying mechanism?

[dsung]

Anybody played GTA4 before? I like the Euphoria Engine they used. That looks much better than these ragdolls in TDS.

[Akanti]

If you compare TDS with T1 and T2 many people will still believe that TDS is better. Yes, I loved every game of the Thief series as TDS as well, and you know what, I still play it . Never finished it by the way... But why does this happen? Well everyone base their opinions on the graphics style, weapons system, text colors, speech dialogs... (blah blah) of each game. Let's say that today we live in 1999 or 2000 and we are all playing T1 or T2. The graphics back then were not as developed as today's games graphics, but we still believed that these were the best gaming graphics of all time. But then, after years, TDS arrived making a big impression to many people around the world. And now we have these uhh '' arguments '' between two games that the way they were build or they way they looked are COMPLETELY different! Does that make any sence people?

[Flashart]

By "limited slot inventory" I meant some mechanism that restricts the amount or type of gear Garrett takes into a mission. This could be cash, weight, space etc. Something that means between missions there's a little management or planning to be done. I wouldn't want Garrett to have unlimited gas arrows etc.

[Hypevosa]

Originally Posted by Flashart

I think EM will have already decided whether to improve upon TDS or continue in classic TMA style.
From the tiny comment about having some RPG element involved, I'd prefer if it was a limited slot inventory, but I'd wager they go for a "multiple story path".
If they did that, would you prefer to see a "light/dark" (good vs evil Garrett) path, or "violent/nonviolent" path or a "faction siding path" ...etc?
Faction siding might be okay as you'd get a few different missions, but then I reckon you could kiss goodbye to the Editor.

I think Garrett is inherently neutral, and that's very visible from the cut scenes, and how he acts. He really only cares for himself right now (though I'd say his interactions with viktoria show he is actually capable of learning to care for others), and only intervenes in other affairs when something threatens his livelihood, or his life.

That said, the only thing I think there is a question about, or wiggle room for is the violence vs non-violence thing, because that is something that's determined by the player while he's playing the game.

I however, don't really want multiple story lines/endings, because Garrett isn't a character I completely control. This isn't someone who the player creates and then role plays, this is an entity who does have alot of his character already defined and displayed through his words and the cut scenes. In a role playing scenario where the character is largely of the player's creation, it makes sense to have multiple story lines and paths and all that - but otherwise it would be like having a super-man game where the player can decide to have super-man go rogue and destroy the entire planet in a fit of evil. He'd never do that.

That and it takes time I'd rather be spent elsewhere on making multiple story lines/endings.

[Hypevosa]

Originally Posted by dsung

Anybody played GTA4 before? I like the Euphoria Engine they used. That looks much better than these ragdolls in TDS.

What's funny was I actually described this without knowing it existed in my environmental interactions thread.

They use a good physics engine, give people a rigid skeleton, and then give them muscles that allow them to move their body parts, so there's no need for motion capture.

I'm maddened by my ability to come up with what I think is an original idea or solution, and then see that someone else has already (and usually recently) created it.

[Fatherwoodsie]

for thief 4. please bring back the sound of deep voices like that of the barracks section of the cragscleft prison level. i cant describe it too well it sounds like an old "monk" or something. like a bunch of guys praying that have deep voices, sorry cant explain too well.

listen at 4:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGoHS4I__IQ

[Fatherwoodsie]

ok here is my idea for a new level. garrett does one of these two things

1. garrett kills the person whom was invited to a masquerade, steals the clothes and sneaks in in disguise.

2. someone has just been murdered at a masquerade in a mansion. all main entries has been blocked off for investigation, and garrett has to find another way in. there is something inside the mansion he needs to steal. there a numerous gaurds patrolling every floor of the mansion.