An idea: Multiplayer.

[Verran]

Not sure if anyone has ever thought of this.

Imagine playing Thief in a multiplayer environment. You join a game with 4 other thieves. The objective of the mission is to:

1. Steal 200 gold pieces before anyone else.
2. Assasinate a noble before anyone else.
3. Make it out alive before anyone else.

Everyone could use different tactics to reach their goals. One, try to lead guards to other the other thieves in hopes of "removing the competition". Second, hunt down and take out the other thieves first.

If you die, a time limit could be set before you can rejoin and start from the beginning.

More food for thought: Teams. A guild of thieves competeing against another guild, in small groups.

And of course there could always be anarchy as usual. Direct combat, or hide and strike, like most people would prefer.

I would find multiplayer support in Thief intriguing and it would bring more appeal to a wider audience of players.

The Unreal II engine has multiplayer / networking built in, I assume.

[Old Man]

Already done with the Unreal Tournament engine, Verran. Thievery UT. Check it out!

[LeatherMan]

Originally posted by Verran
Everyone could use different tactics to reach their goals. One, try to lead guards to other the other thieves in hopes of "removing the competition". Second, hunt down and take out the other thieves first.

That is called ThiefMatch in ThieveryUT ...

More food for thought: Teams. A guild of thieves competeing against another guild, in small groups.

There are already several: Crackaz Thievery Guild, Mercenaries, Australian Thievery Guild, Tears of Blood ...

I would find multiplayer support in Thief intriguing and it would bring more appeal to a wider audience of players.

Nobody is sure if Thief 3 will have multiplayer support, and frankly, nobody cares. I have read that it will not, as Ion Storm doesn't want to skimp on the singleplayer game to do so.

If you are interested in multiplayer thief, check out ThieveryUT. One other is in the works (though the site hasn't been updated in quite some time): Guards vs Thieves for Half-Life

[Verran]

Holy crap. I never knew this existed - thanks guys! Downloading now.

[ceyko_tx]

Unfortunately, my lifeless-self has actually lost sleep trying to conjure up a decent MP idea for Thief. The only angle I can think is 1 thief and everyone else is a guard of some sort. Even if there is 4-5 thiefs in a coop type fashion it would still go down hill. 2 main reasons.

1. What works in SP won't work in MP. People would just shoot arrows and take wacks at the shadows all day in hopes of flushing out the invisible Thief.

2. If #1 does not apply or even if it did - people would get REAL bored waiting for the invisible Thief to make his or her move. At least from a traditional MP perspective.

If there is ever a GOOD MP game built with a Thief series, I'll be very impressed.

Take care,
Ceyko

[ChangelingJane]

I like the idea of a MP Thief 3 (as a mod or whatever), where the players are all thieves and the guards are still AIs. There are several modes that would work for this setup.

Co-op would require unique maps, I think, to have areas and puzzles that require teamwork. You could also do timed runs, where doing some well-choreographed teamwork could speed up the run.

I've always thought it'd be funny to have a "bodycount" versus mode, where two or more thieves have to KO guards and drag their bodies back to a "home" point (each thieves' starting point, all different). Successfully bringing a body back, without being caught, gives you a point. Getting caught costs you a point and returns you to your home point. There could be special guards worth extra points (with gold armor to indicate, or something), that are in tougher spots, where you have to go way out in the open to get them, scale walls to bring them back, or something like that. Or they're heavier and slow you down more. The game is over when all the guards are KO'd.

While you're playing you can do things to hinder the other thieves, like shoot an arrow in their direction to draw attention to them and get them caught.

Similarly, you could also do a versus thief mode, where two or more thieves (or teams of thieves) have to ransack a place. Whoever gets the most loot, and doesn't get caught wins. Getting caught loses the game for you and your team, which means caution and stealth are important, and doing some crazy stunt to get the other thieves captured would be fairly dangerous.

Sorry if this stuff is already in Thievery, I haven't played it yet. I think doing a MP mod for the actual Thief 3 game would play way differently than Thievery anyways, and I'd definitely like to see it happen someday...

It'd be interesting if they did like the makers of Return to Castle Wolfenstein did, and have another company develop the MP portion of the game concurrently.

[Bat-mite]

A possible MP for Thief three would be to have a team of characters that have to independently gather a collection of stuff.

For instance, suppose the mission objectives are to:

- Steal a diamond studded scabbard.
- Find a document concerning blah. blah. blah.
- Collect 3000 loot.
- Steal a priceless painting.
- Steal back incriminating evidence against the players.
- Kill no one.
- Alert no one to your presence.

You are a team of three thieves. You may work completely independently (i.e., not in the same place at the same time).

The issue becomes communication! Suppose you each go a different direction in search of the stuff, but you don't know where it is. You come to a mysterious room, and you believe the diamond scabbard may be inside. But there is a guard directly in your way.

Do you: a) move on to an easier objective? b) try anyway, even though another team member might be better equipped for this particular objective? c) move on, but try to leave a note for a team member as to what you've learned?

If you leave a note, it will have to be out of sight, otherwise your "no detection" objective is blown. But if it is out of sight, how will another team member find it? Hmmm.

This would be fun for me and involve a lot of cleverness!

[BrokenArts]

Ok you guys, Bat-mite, Changling, Ceyko, you REEEAALLLLYYYY need to play Thievery.

[ChangelingJane]

The main problem with a game like that, to me, is that you end up feeling like you're just playing singleplayer again. Splitting up and acting individually, with limited communication possibilities, ends up destroying the feeling that it's a multi player game.

If there are any sections of the mission where the team has to split up, it should only be for distinct portions of the mission. A "split up and meet back here" kind of deal. The guards will most likely be smarter in T3, and it'll most likely be easier to get caught, with dynamic shadows and whatnot. They could start getting suspicious after things start to go missing, and then you'd have to cover more territory faster to get all the loot. But then, after those portions, there should be a point where you have to work as a group again to proceed.

Having team members with different specialties is a good idea--you could have a box man, an acrobat (ropes and such, maybe can jump higher/mantle longer distances or something), a catburglar (quiet on almost all surfaces), stuff like that. Its combined specialties like these that would make thieves team up in the first place.

Unless there's special features to the map like a complicated security system or somesuch thing that would require a coordinated effort, the main benefit of having a group loot a place is speed. Move through the place as fast as possible and get out, before the guards even have a chance to catch on. Speed Ghosting, if you will ;p

As a side note, voice chat would be a VERY entertaining feature for this mode, if it were implemented as in-the-game-world speaking and not like a separate channel... though you'd have to calibrate your mics so that you aren't too loud and alert nearby guards! Though it'd be fun to yell and run too! Hehe...

[ChangelingJane]

Originally posted by BrokenArts
Ok you guys, Bat-mite, Changling, Ceyko, you REEEAALLLLYYYY need to play Thievery.

As soon as I free up some HD space I will. Have a movie project to finish first.

[Bat-mite]

Originally posted by BrokenArts
Ok you guys, Bat-mite, Changling, Ceyko, you REEEAALLLLYYYY need to play Thievery.

There just aren't enough hours in the day....

[newk007]

Reading this thread sparked some thoughts in my mind. I have a good feeling that a lot of people won't like my idea but here it is anyway.

A Thief online world. The city that the Thief series is based in (or something like it) is where it all happens. You live the life of your thief. You start off in the street (as a kid for example) picking pockets for a living, and eventually you get noticed by one of the many guilds situated about the city. They can see you as a potential for their guild, or as a threat, in which case you can be assasinated. The guilds each have their own buildings where you report back news from your latest mission, receive info on your next, or to go to rest. Say if you have to go to bed, you have to go back to the guild and to a rest room (or your own room if you're a "high-up"). Let this idea play on your mind before you judge.

Make everyone in the game world (bar some guards, some nobles, peasants etc.) playable. Choose your family that you are raised in. There could be all sorts of characters to be (though some would be boring!) I know it sounds like Everquest and the like (none of those games have I ever played) but I think if it was well thought and planned out it could be "do-able". THINK OF THE POSSIBILITIES!!!

Finally can anyone who's played Everquest and games like it tell me if this kind of idea works? Do most people want to be "unstoppable fighting machines"? (courtesy Thief 2 Manual)

Thanks!

[ChangelingJane]

Originally posted by newk007
Reading this thread sparked some thoughts in my mind. I have a good feeling that a lot of people won't like my idea but here it is anyway.

A Thief online world.

Might not like the idea? That's been like my dream since I first laid eyes on Thief ^_^ I could (and will) nitpick the details, but an online Thief (or Thief-like) world would be awesome. It would, however, have to be NOTHING like EverQuest. No focus on leveling up or other self-centered things that are more or less separate from the rest of the game world. Thieves, especially the higher-ups, aren't just about stealing. They live in a world of political intruigue and power struggles. Their lives are tied in with the nobility, as much as any noble will deny it.

Territory is a complicated business in the world of thieves. Guilds have their own turf, so that big jobs don't get botched by somebody else attempting the same thing. Pickpockets control their own territory on the streets. You get caught "working" in some other pickpocket's territory, you're gonna end up paying for it, and not just in money.

In short, it's the perfect setting for an online game. You have power struggles on multiple levels, each with its own ulterior motives--the nobility, the "high-class" thieves, the lowly pickpockets and ruffians.

The thing is, if it were done like any previous MMORPG or CRPG, it would suck. You can't do the typical levels or skill systems, because a nobody can suddenly become a big player from one piece of hot information. You can't have global communication, or even "tell"s--information in such an enviornment is valuable, and communication has to be limited to make the game world work.

The game would not be about gaining levels or maxing out skills. If anything, I think there should be a simplified skill system, almost like that in Deus Ex. No levels or anything--just low, moderate, or high skill in specific areas: lockpicking, pickpocketing, climbing walls, hiding in shadows, moving silently, (yes, yes, all ripped straight from AD&D), backstabbing. Or it could be simplified further into thief archetypes: the pickpocket, the box-man, the assassin, the catburglar.

Thieves' guild halls are a highly secretive affair--part of the challenge of the game would be keeping the location of your guild's hall secret. If it gets found out, you have to relocate. There could be numerous abandoned buildings and other such locales to choose from. They could change dynamically depending on politics. If you have a poor local magistrate, and businesses are folding, there would be more places for you to choose from (and less to steal, unfortunately). Or maybe he's in on the gig, and provides a guild hall for you. Newbie thieves have to sleep on the streets, obviously.

I think if it was well thought and planned out it could be "do-able". THINK OF THE POSSIBILITIES!!!

Exactly

Finally can anyone who's played Everquest and games like it tell me if this kind of idea works? Do most people want to be "unstoppable fighting machines"? (courtesy Thief 2 Manual)

EverQuest is a bad role-model for this kind of game. There really would be few similarities. An online Thief game would be like no other online game out there. If it was done right, that is.

[ceyko_tx]

I agree with most people that a GOOD Thief multiplayer game would be the first of its kind. The only problem I have is when you must cooperate with other players in order to succeed. When I beta tested Shattered Galaxy, that was the biggest draw back to me. In order for your faction to succeed, you had to rely on other players. In order for your personal character to succeed, sometimes you had to chose between being selfish or assisting your team. Also, you run into leeches and everything else.

I like some of the ideas that were sort of "loner" based. It would be nice for some indirect competition. Frankly, a good Thief game would be possible but I could not possibly begin to figure out how. Simply because a good online Thief game should have some community interaction, but not too much since the Thief character is supposed to be a loner.

The only big let down to the "territory" portion is that your area could be raided while you are off-line. The only semi-work around for that is clan or large faction based ideas. That could cause problems with the whole feeling of being a Thief - especially a Garrett type Thief.

Less concentration on attributes is definitely a cool idea. It would help lessen PvP. Then again, PvP could be what people want in a Thief MP game.

The only idea I have to contribute comes from JumpGate. In the realms of clans and stuff, they had a very good idea. I have not played JG since the last phase of the Beta test to see if it got any better. Basically they have a (I can remember the real names anymore) Pirate, and normal civilian setting. There were advantages and disadvantages to either of them. If you were a pirate, you were free to kill any other pirate without any penalties. If you were set as a civilian, you could only kill another player if you were fired upon first. If you did otherwise, you faced semi-severe penalties. Plus there were built-in squads and such. I really don't see a Thief MP game working without some sort of support from other players, especially if there is any sort of territories built-in. With that said, Thief could be team based until you made a name for yourself. At that point you could go on your own or stay with the team. If you went on your own you would assume the "Pirate" label and be vulnerable to outside problems. What those problems could be, I do not know.

I'd like to see a official Thief MP game. If it were really good and successful, the makers of it would have really accomplish something.

Half my problem with coming up with ideas, is because I don't have a clue of what is actually possible in a game. I know there have probably been several threads on this stuff, but I really dig reading these ideas. Who knows, maybe someone is jotting them down in hopes of developing a MP Thief game. (Wishful thinking?)

Take care,
Ceyko

[ChangelingJane]

Originally posted by ceyko_tx
Simply because a good online Thief game should have some community interaction, but not too much since the Thief character is supposed to be a loner.

Garrett is a loner because he's a master and doesn't need any help. Other thieves, however, would be more likely to be in guilds. If there were an official Thief online game, nobody would be playing Garrett.

The only big let down to the "territory" portion is that your area could be raided while you are off-line. The only semi-work around for that is clan or large faction based ideas. That could cause problems with the whole feeling of being a Thief - especially a Garrett type Thief.

Again, as I said above.

I've been trying to think of a solution to the problem of people being online and offline at different times. It's not a simple problem. One thing came to mind though, which people seem to either love or hate (mostly hate, so far ) -- "episodes". Like a TV show that's on certain days for a certain amount of time, you could have a server that is up from, say, 9:00 to 11:00 on Mondays and Thursdays, or something along those lines.

It'd be similar to watching a scheduled TV program regularly. Several servers could be up to cover a range of times to accomodate different player's schedules. If a player isn't going to be able to make the next episode, he could set a flag to allow another player to take over for him for the time he's out. If something big happens, it could be "recorded" off the game log and made into a movie for ppl to download during the off time by the dev/support team. This would also ease bugfixing for the devs, as scheduled downtime would be a normal thing.

Less concentration on attributes is definitely a cool idea. It would help lessen PvP. Then again, PvP could be what people want in a Thief MP game.

With a focus on guilds, and relatively weak weapon use (with the exception of the assassin), PvP would be difficult. There would also be Thief elements such as blood trails, sound propagation, and powerful, smart guards that would make PvP a little more difficult. The game would have to be balanced so that killing is hard to do, and even harder to do discreetly.

I think that, this (hypothetically) being a Thief game, it would attract a different crowd, with a different attitude, anyways.

Half my problem with coming up with ideas, is because I don't have a clue of what is actually possible in a game. I know there have probably been several threads on this stuff, but I really dig reading these ideas. Who knows, maybe someone is jotting them down in hopes of developing a MP Thief game. (Wishful thinking?)

Whatever happens, I want to be part of the process if it does become a reality!

[newk007]

I don't think that there should be classes as such. I imagine that you are a person in the world, and you live out your life however you see fit. Say, you want to be a noble... fine. But if you lose everything, you are cast out into the streets with the other beggars. Then you could change your walk of life to become a thief... perhaps? One must make a living.

I'm thinking about how it could be done now, and I really honestly haven't the foggiest idea how it could be made. It seems to buggy for me to figure out. I'll leave it to the designers...

[ChangelingJane]

Originally posted by newk007
I'm thinking about how it could be done now, and I really honestly haven't the foggiest idea how it could be made. It seems to buggy for me to figure out. I'll leave it to the designers...

See, these are the kinds of problems that I love figuring out. Too bad to be a game designer you have to already be a professional in the industry with an established career. I'll have to break in through the art department *grabs her, uh, art department crowbar*.

[TRoosevelt_26]

Look at <b>[<i>Thief Gold</i> install directory] / intrface.CRF / netplay.STR</b>.

Striking resemblance to System Shock II's co-op multiplayer system...

[TRoosevelt_26]

Originally posted by ChangelingJane
See, these are the kinds of problems that I love figuring out. Too bad to be a game designer you have to already be a professional in the industry with an established career.

Actually, American McGee jumped straight from a job answering phones at id Software because someone saw him designing his own maps in his "free" time behind the desk.

[drunkguard]

I think the Idea of Mp thief would be great in a culter/intrige rich envorment. But It would be difficult to work out.

for one; any mp game of this type would run into problems like everquest, such as pvp hunters, storyline, and interaction. further a strictly "thief" world would become stale in a mp setting. in order for it to be interesting and stay that way it would need to have sub theif class types and guilds to interact.

The very nature of a thives world is also highly complex, every player would probably need a journal just to keep track of loot and enimies, no friends

personaly I would like to see the mp game that balances the mystery and the action. were every player must rely on there wits and personal skill vs the charecter level and overly pumped up toys. the way your charater is in the theif game is perfact. no levels just skill and intelagence.

Do I am so high?!

[CWFY]

Using the principle of The Matrix Online, the whole city could be available and everyone has a choice as to what character they are at the start as a thief you have to steal a certain amount every night, and if you fall too far behind then you have to start the game again. As a guard you have to stop thieves, two or three guards patrol a section and if there is too much thieving then they get “sacked” and have to start again, general people could have jobs, you have your own house, which you can upgrade the security of, jobs all have waiting lists, so there is only a certain amount of each people etc… Each character has special abilities, e.g. thieves can sneak, and guards have more health…

The problem is people playing the game would have to take it seriously, because if you are in a waiting list to become a thief, you can’t just hunt thieves so that you can move up the list, because it just doesn’t happen!

[The_Insane]

Thief MP:

first you have to pick a class like: burglar, acrobat, scout, pickpocket, archer, assasin, bounty hunter...

you start with no equipment, in your personal appartment.
the first thing you should do is finding another player to help you and to share your loot. then you and your fellow thief should find some houses to rob and steal loot to sell. When you have grabed some loot, you should start looking for a guild of thieves so that you can get new objectives and new stuff.

by completing missions, you gain a level. the higher level you are, the better you can sneak,climb,shoot,pickpocket,......

high level thieves get more challenging missions and can earn special abilities like a speed bonus,climbing ability, sharpshooting,poison dagger, brew potions, lockpick, mech eye,....

high level thieves can challenge guildmasters for a thief duel: the one who collects the most loot as fast as possible wins the duel and earns/keeps the title of guildmaster.

if you are allied to the hammers/pagans, you can do missions for them, in exchange, they pay you or you can order them to arrest another thief if you tell them the location of his guild/appartment.

[BrokenArts]

This has been stated before, no Thief multiplayer, only thing that comes close is UT's Thievery. Closest thing you will find.

[punko]

Now here's a treat.

How would you go about making a competive Thief boardgame, where you don't have 4 players playing solitaire at the same time. I.e. players need to interact with each other.

I tried (before Thief DS) to set it up as 4 players moving via the theives highway (T2 : life of the party) over rooftops checking out pubs for clues with a difficulty:loot factor to accept/decline. Patrols, hammerite, pagans making the streets unsafe. I ran into the game always becoming 4 player solitaire.

I find that the only way to make the players interact would be to have the thieves compete to clear out a single building. Many routes, T2 alarms, guards with routes, guards on spots, torches with defined illumination zones etc. ways to distract guards towards other thieves, but I have trouble with the mechanics.

As for an online version, I would have it that your character is active in the world when you are off-line. when you leave control of your character, it "bots" back to your homebase. When at home, it regularly goes out (for food, beer, laundry) as one of the street people that other people can have a crack at. Obviously higher level thieves are tough marks (good hearing, disappear in shadows, etc) This way people it makes sense for online players to defend the guild's turf i.e. to protect their own guild members that are out shopping for new cloaks.

Just my $.02

[taa2609]

Originally posted by punko
As for an online version, I would have it that your character is active in the world when you are off-line.

super idea, hadnt thought of that. i thought the major problem behind a thief mmorpg was that you would have a city of thieves. but that could be solved if all those who are offline, became ordinary npcs. maybe they had part time jobs as guards (how else would you learn the layout of your next mission?). you could put all your loot in your house, and hire guards to protect it, so you wouldnt really suffer much from being pickpocketed while you were offline.
your idea could work. i like the idea of my thief having a whining wife, taking the pesky kids to school, an insolent boss, then playtime at night.
tommy.