Warren Spector Comments "The Ultra Violence Has To Stop" and Why He Left Eidos

[Romeo]

Originally Posted by Wilks

I'm speaking in absolute terms. There's no inherent difference between choice and consequence in an RPG format and that in a FPS format (except that in an RPG format, those choices and consequences would be more or less successful depending on your character's stats). That there exists such a divide is purely a product of bias---"FPS can't have branching stories because I've never played an FPS with branching stories"---not because a FPS is incapable of providing that experience.

No, that's not what I said at all. A FPS can have branching stories, just as it can have driving elements and puzzles. However, this is just an FPS borrowing from the RPG genre, racing genre and puzzle genre. Again, choice and consequence are the mainstays of the RPG genre - without them, the game is not an RPG. So the act of killing someone in a shooter can be irrelevent - that's the core concept of the game, afterall. If I feel a complete emotional disconnect in an RPG, the RPG is doing something wrong.

Clearer now?

[Wilks]

Originally Posted by Romeo

No, that's not what I said at all. A FPS can have branching stories, just as it can have driving elements and puzzles. However, this is just an FPS borrowing from the RPG genre, racing genre and puzzle genre. Again, choice and consequence are the mainstays of the RPG genre - without them, the game is not an RPG. So the act of killing someone in a shooter can be irrelevent - that's the core concept of the game, afterall. If I feel a complete emotional disconnect in an RPG, the RPG is doing something wrong.

Clearer now?

There is a difference between role playing and a computer role playing game. The former is something employed in improv, acting, the bedroom, and every game ever created. A computer role playing game is something in which your role is enforced through rules. Stats are the only fundamental concept here. You can have anything from a hyper linear dungeon romp to a deep, branching tale with plenty of player input and complex consequences.

An example: Suppose a game had a combat system in which every character was equally proficient. There are no stats that make one character more effective with rifles and another more effective with knives. Everyone is just as capable as any other. This would be called an "action game". Why then, would a branching story sans stat considerations be classified as an RPG element? There's no fundamental difference between "combat" gameplay and "story" gameplay. There's no fundamental difference between choosing one story path over another and choosing one weapon over another. What matters is how the rules govern each of those gameplay elements.

I'm not sure how you can argue that choice within a story is solely under the purview of RPGs. What about choice within combat? Choice within exploration? Choice within equipment? Unless you're arguing that stories themselves are RPG elements, then I can't possibly see how the introduction of choice would change a thing in terms of what genre this feature belongs to.

[Romeo]

Originally Posted by Wilks

There is a difference between role playing and a computer role playing game. The former is something employed in improv, acting, the bedroom, and every game ever created. A computer role playing game is something in which your role is enforced through rules. Stats are the only fundamental concept here. You can have anything from a hyper linear dungeon romp to a deep, branching tale with plenty of player input and complex consequences.

An example: Suppose a game had a combat system in which every character was equally proficient. There are no stats that make one character more effective with rifles and another more effective with knives. Everyone is just as capable as any other. This would be called an "action game". Why then, would a branching story sans stat considerations be classified as an RPG element? There's no fundamental difference between "combat" gameplay and "story" gameplay. There's no fundamental difference between choosing one story path over another and choosing one weapon over another. What matters is how the rules govern each of those gameplay elements.

I'm not sure how you can argue that choice within a story is solely under the purview of RPGs. What about choice within combat? Choice within exploration? Choice within equipment? Unless you're arguing that stories themselves are RPG elements, then I can't possibly see how the introduction of choice would change a thing in terms of what genre this feature belongs to.

No, you're once again overcomplicating this. Choice in story is an RPG element. Doesn't matter about the other aspects of the game - whether it features guns, girls, or great cars. Point being, they're borrowing from the RPG genre.

Therefore, a shooter with an evolving story is a FPS with RPG elements.

[Pinky_Powers]

Originally Posted by Romeo

No, you're once again overcomplicating this. Choice in story is an RPG element. Doesn't matter about the other aspects of the game - whether it features guns, girls, or great cars. Point being, they're borrowing from the RPG genre.

Therefore, a shooter with an evolving story is a FPS with RPG elements.

I happen to agree with this.

[Wilks]

Originally Posted by Romeo

No, you're once again overcomplicating this. Choice in story is an RPG element. Doesn't matter about the other aspects of the game - whether it features guns, girls, or great cars. Point being, they're borrowing from the RPG genre.

Therefore, a shooter with an evolving story is a FPS with RPG elements.

I'm not overcomplicating anything. I'm simply analyzing a gameplay element and seeing how it relates to a specific genre classification. You have provided absolutely zero evidence for your claim. You're simply stating it as if it were self evident when it clearly isn't.

A comparison to PnP is absurd because 1) PnP allows for infinite choice, not a handful, and are managed by a GM who can dynamically alter the story on the fly, and 2)Those choices rely on your character's stats when determining success. A good chunk of early PnP manuals won't even mention how to handle player choice/consequence. Many PnP sessions might be little more than combat runs. PnP RPGs and CRPGs are in whole different leagues, it's the nature of their respective mediums.

Choose your own adventure books, Indigo Prophecy, Heavy Rain, a buttload of other adventure games. The primary element in these games involves the player making narrative decisions, altering the flow of story events, and yet no one calls them RPGs. Then there are a wealth of non-adventure, non-RPG computer games that offer just as much choice/consequence, if not more. Civilization, the Total War series, etc. No one describes these as having RPG elements, despite offering highly impactful decisions. Finally, there is the fact that early CRPGs stories were necessarily linear. You had extremely little choice, with many being little more than dungeon divers. And yet they are called RPGs, despite not having branching narratives.

So no, this isn't complicated. It's very straightforward. Stats make an RPG, enforced character roles, not branching stories. Those can make for a better game, better invest the player in whatever world or story they might be exploring, but that's simply good game design, not CRPG game design.

[Pinky_Powers]

I thought he was arguing from personal opinion and general observation.

Every single one of my favorite RPGs have branching story and heavy social gameplay. It seems fair to say those are important elements in making a powerful Roll Playing Game.

[Romeo]

Originally Posted by Wilks

I'm not overcomplicating anything. I'm simply analyzing a gameplay element and seeing how it relates to a specific genre classification. You have provided absolutely zero evidence for your claim. You're simply stating it as if it were self evident when it clearly isn't.

A comparison to PnP is absurd because 1) PnP allows for infinite choice, not a handful, and are managed by a GM who can dynamically alter the story on the fly, and 2)Those choices rely on your character's stats when determining success. A good chunk of early PnP manuals won't even mention how to handle player choice/consequence. Many PnP sessions might be little more than combat runs. PnP RPGs and CRPGs are in whole different leagues, it's the nature of their respective mediums.

Choose your own adventure books, Indigo Prophecy, Heavy Rain, a buttload of other adventure games. The primary element in these games involves the player making narrative decisions, altering the flow of story events, and yet no one calls them RPGs. Then there are a wealth of non-adventure, non-RPG computer games that offer just as much choice/consequence, if not more. Civilization, the Total War series, etc. No one describes these as having RPG elements, despite offering highly impactful decisions. Finally, there is the fact that early CRPGs stories were necessarily linear. You had extremely little choice, with many being little more than dungeon divers. And yet they are called RPGs, despite not having branching narratives.

So no, this isn't complicated. It's very straightforward. Stats make an RPG, enforced character roles, not branching stories. Those can make for a better game, better invest the player in whatever world or story they might be exploring, but that's simply good game design, not CRPG game design.

We aren't bringing up books, movies or PnP. Because you'll notice there's no such thing as a FPS genre in any of those either, nor a racing, puzzle, platformer, etc... We really shouldn't need to point that out. We're talking about video games.

Now, as to your assessment that "stat choices and enforced character roles, not branching stories" are what denotes an RPG, I would ask you this: In Battlefield 3 your weapon affects your character speed, damage, accuracy and handling stats, and you very clearly have an enforced role... Would you refer to it as an RPG? Forza 4 is about as in-depth as stats go, I can adjust everything down to tenths of degrees, and there's a very blatent role of "dragster" or "oval racer" or "sprint car"... Would that be an RPG? No, obviously not, right? Branching stories is about as in-grained to the RPG genre as stats are. And considering Deus Ex's lack of stats, but branching story, do you not find it curious that many sites list it as an RPG?

[Wilks]

Originally Posted by Romeo

We aren't bringing up books, movies or PnP. Because you'll notice there's no such thing as a FPS genre in any of those either, nor a racing, puzzle, platformer, etc... We really shouldn't need to point that out. We're talking about video games.

I brought it up in anticipation of some argument you might use. When you don't provide an argument beyond, "Story choices = RPG. Period," it becomes difficult for me to offer continued debate.

EDIT: Also, puzzle games, shooters, racing, platforming absolutely exists outside of video games.

Originally Posted by Romeo

Now, as to your assessment that "stat choices and enforced character roles, not branching stories" are what denotes an RPG, I would ask you this: In Battlefield 3 your weapon affects your character speed, damage, accuracy and handling stats, and you very clearly have an enforced role... Would you refer to it as an RPG? Forza 4 is about as in-depth as stats go, I can adjust everything down to tenths of degrees, and there's a very blatent role of "dragster" or "oval racer" or "sprint car"... Would that be an RPG? No, obviously not, right? Branching stories is about as in-grained to the RPG genre as stats are. And considering Deus Ex's lack of stats, but branching story, do you not find it curious that many sites list it as an RPG?

If those stats are specifically related to the character and enforcing that character then yes, it is an RPG---or at least contains RPG elements. Stats on there own are not evidence of an RPG. It doesn't matter how many configuration options a gun or vehicle might have if every single character is equally capable of configuring a gun in that manner. But if, for example, one character is proficient in WEAPON MODDING and this gives them the ability to upgrade a weapon to greater effect than someone who is merely competent in WEAPON MODDING, then that would be an example of RPG mechanics.

Branching stories are ingrained in many genres. RPGs and adventure games are the most prominent, but it exists in action games and shooters and strategy games and whatever else. More importantly, as I've said before, branching stories are simply an evolution of interactivity. It's not a product of a genre, but a product of that interactivity. If one genre happens to use it more often, it doesn't necessarily follow that the genre can claim ownership over that design. I'd ask that you respond to this point I made earlier:

I'm not sure how you can argue that choice within a story is solely under the purview of RPGs. What about choice within combat? Choice within exploration? Choice within equipment? Unless you're arguing that stories themselves are RPG elements, then I can't possibly see how the introduction of choice would change a thing in terms of what genre this feature belongs to.

Deus Ex is an RPG because it has stats: Skills and augmentations. More importantly, though, is that those stats enforce a certain role. Not every character can achieve master proficiency in every skill and not every character can have every augmentation. Did you mean Human Revolution? In that case, things are slightly different. There are augmentations, and lacking certain augmentations will limit your character's abilities. At the same time, most players can unlock the majority of these abilities in a single game, so character distinction is minimal. Were the augmentations implemented differently, I'd think HR might sit more firmly in the RPG camp. As it is now, I'd say it's an action game with some RPG elements.

Why the press might call it an RPG? It's heritage, the mere existence of character stats, and the existing bias that only RPGs get to have branching storylines. That last misnomer is precisely what I'm disputing.

[Romeo]

Originally Posted by Wilks

I brought it up in anticipation of some argument you might use. When you don't provide an argument beyond, "Story choices = RPG. Period," it becomes difficult for me to offer continued debate.

EDIT: Also, puzzle games, shooters, racing, platforming absolutely exists outside of video games.

I have absolutely zero idea what you're talking about here... I have never seen a "FPS" in anything but a videogame, save for perhaps the two minutes in the movie "Doom". But regardless, utterly irrelevent to our discussion.

Originally Posted by Wilks

If those stats are specifically related to the character and enforcing that character then yes, it is an RPG---or at least contains RPG elements. Stats on there own are not evidence of an RPG. It doesn't matter how many configuration options a gun or vehicle might have if every single character is equally capable of configuring a gun in that manner. But if, for example, one character is proficient in WEAPON MODDING and this gives them the ability to upgrade a weapon to greater effect than someone who is merely competent in WEAPON MODDING, then that would be an example of RPG mechanics.

Branching stories are ingrained in many genres. RPGs and adventure games are the most prominent, but it exists in action games and shooters and strategy games and whatever else. More importantly, as I've said before, branching stories are simply an evolution of interactivity. It's not a product of a genre, but a product of that interactivity. If one genre happens to use it more often, it doesn't necessarily follow that the genre can claim ownership over that design. I'd ask that you respond to this point I made earlier:

It absolutely means that! Guns are most common in the FPS genre, hence why having guns is considered either having shooter mechanics (Fallout, for example) if not being a shooter outright (Halo, for example). Sure, they can be used in platformers, adventure games, RPGs and even racers, but the genre CAN claim ownership, just as RPGs can lay claim to branching stories. Not saying other genres cannot borrow from that, but at the end of the day, they're still borrowing an RPG element.

Originally Posted by Wilks

Deus Ex is an RPG because it has stats: Skills and augmentations. More importantly, though, is that those stats enforce a certain role. Not every character can achieve master proficiency in every skill and not every character can have every augmentation. Did you mean Human Revolution? In that case, things are slightly different. There are augmentations, and lacking certain augmentations will limit your character's abilities. At the same time, most players can unlock the majority of these abilities in a single game, so character distinction is minimal. Were the augmentations implemented differently, I'd think HR might sit more firmly in the RPG camp. As it is now, I'd say it's an action game with some RPG elements.

Why the press might call it an RPG? It's heritage, the mere existence of character stats, and the existing bias that only RPGs get to have branching storylines. That last misnomer is precisely what I'm disputing.

...Or the fact that something you consider "bias" is simply accurate? Generally when it's one person arguing against a million, I'm inclined to listen to the million.

[Wilks]

Originally Posted by Romeo

I have absolutely zero idea what you're talking about here... I have never seen a "FPS" in anything but a videogame, save for perhaps the two minutes in the movie "Doom". But regardless, utterly irrelevent to our discussion.

Paintball, clay pigeon shooting, laser tag, etc. These are games. The only functional difference is that they are not played on video screens and you're necessarily limited in the types of scenarios available. The actual mechanics are the same as what you'd see in an FPS, though.

The reason it's relevant is that we have other games exhibiting the same sort of branching story features you claim are property of the CRPG genre. Choose-your-own-adventure, most notably. Given that the CRPGs with branching stories more closely resemble this than PnP type narratives, it's silly to suggest that those branching stories belong to CRPGs. They existed before CRPGs were even a thing. Branching narratives are simply one means of storytelling, not inherent to any particular game type.

Originally Posted by Romeo

It absolutely means that! Guns are most common in the FPS genre, hence why having guns is considered either having shooter mechanics (Fallout, for example) if not being a shooter outright (Halo, for example). Sure, they can be used in platformers, adventure games, RPGs and even racers, but the genre CAN claim ownership, just as RPGs can lay claim to branching stories. Not saying other genres cannot borrow from that, but at the end of the day, they're still borrowing an RPG element.

None of what you've argued establishes branching narratives as an exclusively RPG element. FPS describes specific types of action games---first person perspective, gunplay, and requiring player skill to determine success. But the FPS genre doesn't own any of those singular concepts. Missing any one and you might have a third person shooter or a tactical RPG or a first person puzzle game. It's only when each element is combined into a whole that it becomes clear it's an FPS.

I'll notice you still haven't responded to my earlier point: Why does the introduction of choice to a game's story make something an RPG concept? I'd add another question: Why does an RPG even need a story? An action game doesn't, a fighter doesn't, a strategy game doesn't. They can just as easily plop you down into a blank world without any context and set you loose. An RPG is no different. The rules by which it governs your role is what makes it an RPG, not whatever context it gives you for that role. I wouldn't say a lack of story is very compelling for the player, but it hardly changes the actual genre.

Originally Posted by Romeo

...Or the fact that something you consider "bias" is simply accurate? Generally when it's one person arguing against a million, I'm inclined to listen to the million.

It's bias when there's no rational explanation for the position aside from, "I've played a bunch of Bioware and Obsidian games and they all had branching stories and called themselves RPGs, therefore branching stories must be an RPG concept."

Most early CRPGs did not provide the player with choices in how the story progressed, and yet are still RPGs. Games that implement only narrative choices for the player to decide between are considered adventure games (or sometimes, interactive movies). The type of choice/consequence generally presented in a CRPG more closely resembles that of a choose-your-own-adventure book than that of PnP tabletop games. Clearly then, the distinction lies elsewhere than whether there's a branching story or not.

[Romeo]

Originally Posted by Wilks

Paintball, clay pigeon shooting, laser tag, etc. These are games. The only functional difference is that they are not played on video screens and you're necessarily limited in the types of scenarios available. The actual mechanics are the same as what you'd see in an FPS, though.

The reason it's relevant is that we have other games exhibiting the same sort of branching story features you claim are property of the CRPG genre. Choose-your-own-adventure, most notably. Given that the CRPGs with branching stories more closely resemble this than PnP type narratives, it's silly to suggest that those branching stories belong to CRPGs. They existed before CRPGs were even a thing. Branching narratives are simply one means of storytelling, not inherent to any particular game type.

I suppose that is logical to consider them FPS (Also see: Real life), but I still suggest they're not relevent to our discussion. Were that the case, videogames would have virtually nothing associated with them, film and novels have beat them to the punch on virtually every single front. Comparing Forza to Gran Turismo is logical - we can see the level of choice, customization, graphics, physics realism, etc. Comparing Forza to The Fast and the Furious obviously does not work, however. By the same extension, I'd say ignoring novels and PnP, lest the issue become utterly irrelevent.

Originally Posted by Wilks

None of what you've argued establishes branching narratives as an exclusively RPG element. FPS describes specific types of action games---first person perspective, gunplay, and requiring player skill to determine success. But the FPS genre doesn't own any of those singular concepts. Missing any one and you might have a third person shooter or a tactical RPG or a first person puzzle game. It's only when each element is combined into a whole that it becomes clear it's an FPS.

I'll notice you still haven't responded to my earlier point: Why does the introduction of choice to a game's story make something an RPG concept? I'd add another question: Why does an RPG even need a story? An action game doesn't, a fighter doesn't, a strategy game doesn't. They can just as easily plop you down into a blank world without any context and set you loose. An RPG is no different. The rules by which it governs your role is what makes it an RPG, not whatever context it gives you for that role. I wouldn't say a lack of story is very compelling for the player, but it hardly changes the actual genre.

As I've said four times already, when you have a genre that does something the majority of the time (Shooting in FPS, driving in Racing, exploration in Platforming) it becomes associated with that genre, but it does not make it exclusive. Deus Ex has elements taken from a platformer, but no one in their right mind would list it under the platformer banner. Just as the new Call of Duty has elements from the RPG genre, but no one would list it as an RPG.

As for why it needs a story, because once again, it is a defining trait of the genre. I realize you're attempting to argue semantics, but the simple fact remains there are things associated with RPGs - story being one of the biggest.

Originally Posted by Wilks

It's bias when there's no rational explanation for the position aside from, "I've played a bunch of Bioware and Obsidian games and they all had branching stories and called themselves RPGs, therefore branching stories must be an RPG concept."

Most early CRPGs did not provide the player with choices in how the story progressed, and yet are still RPGs. Games that implement only narrative choices for the player to decide between are considered adventure games (or sometimes, interactive movies). The type of choice/consequence generally presented in a CRPG more closely resembles that of a choose-your-own-adventure book than that of PnP tabletop games. Clearly then, the distinction lies elsewhere than whether there's a branching story or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zork

Preeeetty sure that pre-dates virtually every RPG in history. You'll notice that the story in Zork is ridiculously open-ended.

Also as to your idea that it's only BioWare and Obsidian, I would also direct you to a small company called Bethesda. They have these two unknown games series known as the Elder Scrolls and Fallout, which are notoriously open-ended. You know, Elder Scrolls, the games that seem to epitomize the RPG market these days? I would also suggest looking at CD Projekt Red, GSC Game World, inXile Entertainment and Supergiant Games before assuming two companies have a stranglehold on the idea. Then I'd suggest reviewing why Blizzard, Relic Games and Crytek (People that actually work in the industry) also consider branching stories to be an RPG element, while you (Some player) insist the world is mistaken.

[bat_brain]

well, i can turn on the national news & watch explicit footage of Muammar Gaddafi literally getting ripped limb from limb by his assailaints in a drain pipe.

at that point, i cant help but think theres worse sources of violence then video games.

not to mention, games are rated by the esrb for their content. if you dont want your kids to see it, dont buy it for them?

[JCpie]

Originally Posted by bat_brain

well, i can turn on the national news & watch explicit footage of Muammar Gaddafi literally getting ripped limb from limb by his assailaints in a drain pipe.

But he's a "BAD GUY" so it's all "OKAY".