Dishonored (What DE:HR should have been?)

[HERESY]

Nice posts. I agree with some of it, disagree with other parts but it's a good compare and constrast piece. I think the spirit of your post, and what I've previously stated a page or two ago, comes down to looking at each game separately and seeing if each game actually achieves what it is supposed to be/do.

[KenTWOu]

Originally Posted by HERESY

Now, with DX: HR, I don't recall the enemies noticing anything was missing after if I stole something or opened a desk.

You're right and wrong. They didn't notice when you steal something, because DXHR isn't about thievery. But Thief 3 NPCs did notice when you steal something. Also about a desk drawer. DXHR guards hear that and react accordingly!

This guy is from TYM, If you open that drawer, he will definitely hear that process. Just try it. I don't want to upload the whole video to prove it. Also they hear when you open lockers, doors, windows... For example, this guy fell into a doze. If I close that window he will hear that.

Dishonored guards won't. They are dumbed down.

Originally Posted by HERESY

Also, I don't remember a wall of light siren once I hacked it.

When you walk near default WOL it makes very loud noise and small lamp on top of it starts blink! This stuff indicates than WOL will kill you. When you hack WOL it makes very loud noise when guards walk nearby, that lamp is also blinks, it indicates that it will kill them. So the point is guards should hear/see these things and get the information that WOL was hacked! But they don't do it.

Originally Posted by HERESY

Now, in DX: HR, you could move a FRIDGE in the middle of a hallway with armed men, use it to jump on a ledge and go inside another room. Were the armed guys attempting to move the fridge that just mysteriously popped up in the middle of the hallway?

Don't talk about fridges! There is no stealth games that solved this fundamental AI problem! Because if you want to teach guards to notice such things, you should implement individual memory for everyone on the level and tons of additional dialogues! Because you can take that FRIDGE from one room to another, you can rotate it, you can drop it on its back, you can make millions of possible situations with this fridge! And AI should react to all of them. But AI can't move that fridge. It's just not possible to make such system with current technologies! There is no stealth games that solved this fundamental problem! That's why the first Deus Ex also has this problem.

While stealing is a less ambitious problem. When you steal, you steal immovable object which has only 2 certain absolutely predictable conditions: item lies on the level in one certain place, item lies in your inventory. And Thief 3 already solved that problem!

Originally Posted by HERESY

Again, lean isn't perfect and you can get caught leaning.

You can't! You just doing it wrong. I recommend you to try this, just lean from any corner and then try to strafe left and right and you will get the exact moment, when guards notice your body. But they don't notice your head while you're leaning!

Originally Posted by HERESY

You want to compare the assassinations in Dishonored to the boss battles of DX:HR?

I don't, DX:HR sucks in this regard. But Hitman series has better assassinations (even Hitman:Absolution), because most of Dishonored targets just stand still or stay inside very small rooms.

Originally Posted by HERESY

I'm not going to comment on Thief 3 but I will say that the DX: HR guards being "better" is an opinion. Refer to what I said about the fridge in the middle of the hallway and knocked out guards. Concerning magical shoes and silence, you might want to check the leg augment list again.

1) Leg augmentation uses energy! It's not a cheat! You should turn it on/off manually. While shoes don't use energy, they works every time and everywhere automatically after you bought them.
2) It's not an opinion, it's a fact! Stealth and ghosting is much better in DXHR, because you should observe enemies, you should find a right moment to open a door or a window, to walk from one room to another, and you can't stop time and blink out of any situation. And takedowns use energy. That's why DXHR has very high tension! Dishonored just doesn't have it, because its main focus is a power fantasy and its AI isn't good enough! Power fantasy seriously contradicts stealth. Man, even Splinter Cell:Conviction with overpowered Mark & Execute feature wasn't such unbalanced game and on realistic difficulty guards kill you pretty fast if you screwed up. Dishonored is a piece of cake even on maximum difficulty!

Just listen this! That's the main reason why DXHR is a better game than Dishonored.

Originally Posted by HERESY

And how many options did we have in DX: HR?

Much more than in Dishonored! Several types of non-lethal grenades + wall mines, shocker, takedown, double takedown, non-lethal takedown during falling(!), tranquilize rifle, PEPS gun. Seriously I didn't use any of lethal weapons and have fun during my first non-lethal walktrough. Because every weapon has its logical purpose: short distance, middle distance, long distance. Moreover, some weapons has special emergent features. You can use PEPS to move heavy boxes. Tranquilizer gun seriously helps in tactic cause if you shot in the head guard falls instantly, if you shot in the body he falls several seconds later (behind any object), so you can choose where his body exactly falls. You can use shocker to temporarily turn off cameras and turrets, etc... And lethal walkthrough also gives you more type of weapons than Dishonored.

Originally Posted by HERESY

Stealth doesn't look like an afterthought to me. Blink, possession, agility, dark vision, bend time and shadow kill (if you want to play stealth but in a lethal manner) can all be used for stealth gameplay. That's over half of your powers if you also count shadow kill. Add in charms that allow you to run faster while carrying bodies, choke people out quicker, possess white rats longer, etc, and there is a lot you can do with it.

Lethal powers and weapons give you much more! It's so obvious, I don't want to explain this again. Just read this comment. It's not my comment, by the way.

Originally Posted by HERESY

You don't need all of these things to have a good stealth game. Mark of the Ninja proved it.

You didn't get the point! Dishonored has chaos system and if you kill people it changes the world around you accordingly. That's why it must! IT MUST give you more non-lethal powers, weapons and gadgets! 'Mark of the Ninja' is about killing people, because you're a ninja, it doesn't have two separate endings, it doesn't allow you to deal with your main targets non-lethally! That's why 'Mark of the Ninja' doesn't need more non-lethal weapons! Kill or avoid them. But it still has gas grenades and analogue of flash grenades and its 'Blink' ability isn't overpowered! That's why avoiding enemies is fun and challenging. It's a shame! 'Mark of the Ninja' is a much better stealth game than Dishonored, hell, even Hitman:Absolution is a much better stealth game than Dishonored. At least it has serious challenge!

Originally Posted by HERESY

Yes, almost all weapons are lethal. So? Does that mean you have to use them? Mostly all of the weapons in DX: HR were lethal. What's your point?

You didn't get the point again! Because the most important feature of the game - emergent gameplay - is all about killing people! You can stop time and use windblast to move any bullet in the air and kill people. You can blink on any street lamp, blink over any enemy and drop on him using dead from above. You can possess a guard stand under propaganda loudspeaker jump out of that guard and drop that loudspeaker on his head. You can mix lethal weapons/gadgets/powers with each other and get different outcome. It's all about creative killing! Developers absolutely forgot about creative non-lethal knock outs! While DXHR was about creative non-lethal KO because it has plenty of features to support such play style.

[nomotog]

Originally Posted by KenTWOu

Don't talk about fridges! There is no stealth games that solved this fundamental AI problem! Because if you want to teach guards to notice such things, you should implement individual memory for everyone on the level and tons of additional dialogues! Because you can take that FRIDGE from one room to another, you can rotate it, you can drop it on its back, you can make millions of possible situations with this fridge! And AI should react to all of them. But AI can't move that fridge. It's just not possible to make such system with current technologies! There is no stealth games that solved this fundamental problem! That's why the first Deus Ex also has this problem.

It can't be that hard to fix the fringe problem. Maybe if guards went on alert when they found their path blocked by a movable object. The idea being that a guard might not notice that this box was moved. (Guards are not that attentive in real life) On the other hand they will totally notice when they bump there toe on a fringe that has been moved in their path.

[KenTWOu]

Originally Posted by nomotog

It can't be that hard to fix the fringe problem...

Yes, it's really that hard! There is no stealth games that solved this fundamental problem! That's why Dishonored also has this problem but in less obvious way!

You can take any unconscious body and move it from one place to another and you don't get appropriate reaction from guards. Because it's the same FRIDGE situation. They don't notice that you move that body from one place to another (they will think that it's a new unconscious body when they find it), they don't notice that you rotate that body, they don't notice that you take that body away after they found it.

Because detection system is pretty simple and binary in every stealth/action game, because guards don't remember exact position of every item on every level, because such system demands tons of dialogues from every type of NPC (i.e. "I think somebody rotated that fridge...", "I guess that TV stood there last time I saw it...", "I think somebody moved that chair...", "I'm pretty sure these boxes were there...", "There were two dead bodies here, now there are three..."), because they don't have real memory and real eyes!

For example, when you throw an object they don't see it actually! They don't see its trajectory. They just hear the sound when object hits the wall or the floor. Almost every stealth game has this simplification. Because our hardware isn't fast enough for realistic calculations. But sound calculations are pretty simple: you get one point and radius around it. If the guard inside that radius he reacts! He hears the sound of impact. 'Mark of the Ninja' explains these calculations perfectly. And its AI also has problems if you compare it with DXHR and especially Splinter Cell 3:Chaos Theory.

And doors opening works because a door has certain predictable conditions: closed, opened, closing/opening. That's why Splinter Cell 3:Chaos Theory guards even remember that certain door was previously closed. That's why some Thief 3 NPCs also notice that. Freely movable objects is another story!

[CyberP]

Originally Posted by HERESY

ETA: I don't recall RE4 having a sticky cover system.

No, it didn't. But it didn't have a crouch or jump button either, which is the main reason the cover mechanic is hated by experienced gamers- because you can only jump or crouch when in the cover system, in places set by the designers. If there are dedicated buttons for those mechanics then a cover system can be ignored (much like Deus Ex HR then).

But even without a dedicated crouch or jump mechanic RE4 was a good game. Level design was good, grid based inventory and a weapon upgrading system that were obviously inspired by Deus Ex 1, enemies were interesting and varied, as were the scripted action sequences surprisingly. Even more surprising is that QTE events didn't suck (on console anyway where all buttons are at your fingertips, suitable for reflex skills), it is the only game to implement QTE's well imo.

[HERESY]

Originally Posted by KenTWOu

You're right and wrong. They didn't notice when you steal something, because DXHR isn't about thievery. But Thief 3 NPCs did notice when you steal something.

A lot of the codes and information you gathered came from stealing so I'd say DX:HR is very much about thievery. And again, I'm talking about behavior of the enemy AI after something has been stolen. So if we're going to compare things that happen after the fact, DX:HR doesn't get a pass in this department.

This guy is from TYM, If you open that drawer, he will definitely hear that process. Just try it. I don't want to upload the whole video to prove it. Also they hear when you open lockers, doors, windows... For example, this guy fell into a doze. If I close that window he will hear that. Dishonored guards won't. They are dumbed down.

You're missing the point. If we're going to talk about candles being blown out and enemies not noticing certain things, DX:HR can't get a pass because the enemies fail to notice things as well.

When you walk near default WOL it makes very loud noise and small lamp on top of it starts blink! This stuff indicates than WOL will kill you. When you hack WOL it makes very loud noise when guards walk nearby, that lamp is also blinks, it indicates that it will kill them. So the point is guards should hear/see these things and get the information that WOL was hacked! But they don't do it.

Every time I hacked a WOL no one was near. Does the WOL honk when rats are near? Maybe it could be a case of enemies thinking rats are present and not really paying any mind, I don't know I'm just throwing something out there on that one as I have explored the possibility. However, I do know when the gun thing blinks, and enemies are around when it does, they will come straight for you. What I don't get however, and this ties into what you’re saying, is when the enemy notices the whale oil tanks have gone out. They say something about them running out but they don't go to the tank and replace it.

Don't talk about fridges! There is no stealth games that solved this fundamental AI problem! …There is no stealth games that solved this fundamental problem! That's why the first Deus Ex also has this problem.

So why are you slamming Dishonored for "not doing basic stuff?" (Your words not mine.) You're missing the point, you mentioned no one noticing candles being blown out, again, in DX:HR, the guards don't even notice a FRIDGE that shouldn't be there. Both games have there own issues when it comes to this but you're attempting to pass it off as if it's just Dishonored.

While stealing is a less ambitious problem. When you steal, you steal immovable object which has only 2 certain absolutely predictable conditions: item lies on the level in one certain place, item lies in your inventory. And Thief 3 already solved that problem!

So what if Thief 3 solved it? This thread is about comparing and contrasting Dishonored and DX:HR, not Thief 3.

You can't! You just doing it wrong. I recommend you to try this, just lean from any corner and then try to strafe left and right and you will get the exact moment, when guards notice your body. But they don't notice your head while you're leaning!

Again, I've been caught leaning. Maybe I did do it wrong when I got caught (it was like in chapter one or two) but everytime I did it later on I didn't get caught.

I don't, DX:HR sucks in this regard. But Hitman series has better assassinations (even Hitman:Absolution), because most of Dishonored targets just stand still or stay inside very small rooms.

You were the one who mentioned the assassinations

The targets didn't stand still for me. I tried to fight some and I killed others silently. Yes, they are all in rooms and it would have been cool to actually chase a target through Dunwall. As for Hitman I didn't play the series so I can't comment on it.

1) Leg augmentation uses energy! It's not a cheat! You should turn it on/off manually. While shoes don't use energy, they works every time and everywhere automatically after you bought them.

1. You have to find the blueprint for the stealth upgrade. If you don't find it guess what? You don't get it.

2. You have to have money to pay for the upgrade work.

3. You don't have to pay for the upgrade. If you don't want to use it don't pay for it. It's simple as that.

4. It's not a cheat. It's supposed to work every time and everywhere, automatically, after you purchased the upgrade.

2) It's not an opinion, it's a fact! Stealth and ghosting is much better in DXHR, because you should observe enemies, you should find a right moment to open a door or a window, to walk from one room to another, and you can't stop time and blink out of any situation. And takedowns use energy. That's why DXHR has very high tension!

No, it's your opinion and ultimately dictated by your experience when it comes to stealth titles. Again, concerning tension, that depends on the person playing the game. You take a person who hasn't played a stealth game in their life and they'll tell you a different story. And you can't blink out of every situation without being unoticed. You can blink into a bad sitaution and enemies will notice you and you can blink out and they'll still yell "Witchcraft!", ring the alarm and look for you.

Dishonored just doesn't have it, because its main focus is a power fantasy and its AI isn't good enough! Power fantasy seriously contradicts stealth. Man, even Splinter Cell:Conviction with overpowered Mark & Execute feature wasn't such unbalanced game and on realistic difficulty guards kill you pretty fast if you screwed up. Dishonored is a piece of cake even on maximum difficulty!

Again, you don't have to use all the powers. You said you got all the achievements right? And you played through twice right? So when did you get your one for not playing with any upgrades? First or second run? And while I do own Conviction, I haven't played it for more than 2 hours. I'm backlogged 20+ games and see no end in sight.

Just listen this! That's the main reason why DXHR is a better game than Dishonored.

This does absolutely nothing to support your claim. In fact it pokes holes in your claim. The guy said every player had a different experience and tried different things, so going back to what you said, there is no way you can say this is more tense or that is more tense and call it fact because it all comes down to the individual. Are you saying Dishonored doesn't have that? Being able to try things multiple ways?

Much more than in Dishonored! Several types of non-lethal grenades + wall mines, shocker, takedown, double takedown, non-lethal takedown during falling(!), tranquilize rifle, PEPS gun. Seriously I didn't use any of lethal weapons and have fun during my first non-lethal walktrough.

More does not always mean better. And since you find it appropriate to compare games we aren't even discussing (Theif and Hitman) how many lethal weapons does DX:HR have compared to Borderlands 1 or 2? So what if they only offered you a handful of weapons? Use them! How many powerups did Super Mario Bros offer you? Now compare that to Sonic and count how many you got in the original Sonic game. Do the powers, weapons, etc work as designed in Dishonored? Do they work as designed in DX:HR?

Because every weapon has its logical purpose: short distance, middle distance, long distance.... And lethal walkthrough also gives you more type of weapons than Dishonored.

So what you're saying is the weapons in Dishonored have no logical purpose? Are you saying the weapons and powers don't allow for emergent gameplay?

Lethal powers and weapons give you much more! It's so obvious, I don't want to explain this again. Just read this comment. It's not my comment, by the way.

1. That guy basically said some of the same things I said. The difference is YOU said stealth gameplay was an afterthought.

2. You can play in a violent fashion but still play in a manner of stealth. Stealth and non-violent are not the same thing. Stealth means you aren't seen. Non-violent means you didn't kill anyone.

You didn't get the point! Dishonored has chaos system and if you kill people it changes the world around you accordingly. That's why it must! IT MUST give you more non-lethal powers, weapons and gadgets!

No, it must not give you more non-lethal powers, weapons and gadgets. You simply want more of these things but it doesn't need to give them to you for it to be a good game. You should know, you got the achievement for playing with nothing outside of Blink right? If that's all you need to play in a stealth manner that's all you need. Deal with it. Accept the challenge. If you don't want to see the world change don't kill people and this brings me back to the point a froghawk introduced, what exactly does stealth or non-lethal play in DX:HR garner you? We know that in Dishonored it can mean the difference in how many guards, rats, the ending, etc. What about DX:HR?

'Mark of the Ninja' is about killing people, because you're a ninja, it doesn't have two separate endings

Yes it does.

it doesn't allow you to deal with your main targets non-lethally!

Some of them can be dealth with in a non-lethal fashion (one guy, all you have to do is steal something from him if you want.)

That's why 'Mark of the Ninja' doesn't need more non-lethal weapons! Kill or avoid them. …'Mark of the Ninja' is a much better stealth game than Dishonored, hell, even Hitman:Absolution is a much better stealth game than Dishonored. At least it has serious challenge!

Mark of the Ninja is probably the best ninja game ever made, IMHO, but I never compared it to Dishonored. I haven't played H:A so I can't comment on that.

You didn't get the point again! Because the most important feature of the game - emergent gameplay - is all about killing people!

So if that's the most important feature why are you calling for more non-lethal weapons?

You can stop time and use windblast to move any bullet in the air and kill people. …While DXHR was about creative non-lethal KO because it has plenty of features to support such play style.

No, they didn't forget about them. They just didn't include much or any of it. Ultimately, what does playing in a non-lethal way get you in DX: HR?

[nomotog]

Originally Posted by KenTWOu

Yes, it's really that hard! There is no stealth games that solved this fundamental problem! That's why Dishonored also has this problem but in less obvious way!

You can take any unconscious body and move it from one place to another and you don't get appropriate reaction from guards. Because it's the same FRIDGE situation. They don't notice that you move that body from one place to another (they will think that it's a new unconscious body when they find it), they don't notice that you rotate that body, they don't notice that you take that body away after they found it.

Because detection system is pretty simple and binary in every stealth/action game, because guards don't remember exact position of every item on every level, because such system demands tons of dialogues from every type of NPC (i.e. "I think somebody rotated that fridge...", "I guess that TV stood there last time I saw it...", "I think somebody moved that chair...", "I'm pretty sure these boxes were there...", "There were two dead bodies here, now there are three..."), because they don't have real memory and real eyes!

For example, when you throw an object they don't see it actually! They don't see its trajectory. They just hear the sound when object hits the wall or the floor. Almost every stealth game has this simplification. Because our hardware isn't fast enough for realistic calculations. But sound calculations are pretty simple: you get one point and radius around it. If the guard inside that radius he reacts! He hears the sound of impact. 'Mark of the Ninja' explains these calculations perfectly. And its AI also has problems if you compare it with DXHR and especially Splinter Cell 3:Chaos Theory.

And doors opening works because a door has certain predictable conditions: closed, opened, closing/opening. That's why Splinter Cell 3:Chaos Theory guards even remember that certain door was previously closed. That's why some Thief 3 NPCs also notice that. Freely movable objects is another story!

I don't think it's a hardware problem. More just design choices that the devs made.

[froghawk]

Originally Posted by HERESY

Nice posts. I agree with some of it, disagree with other parts but it's a good compare and constrast piece. I think the spirit of your post, and what I've previously stated a page or two ago, comes down to looking at each game separately and seeing if each game actually achieves what it is supposed to be/do.

Thanks! I'm curious as to which aspects you disagree with, since your posts on the subject seem very level-headed (aside from avoiding Deus Ex because it is 'a relic' - relic or not, it's far better than any of the games discussed here - and this is coming from someone who absolutely cannot get into Arx Fatalis, no matter how hard I try).

[CyberP]

as a longtime fan of the looking glass legacy

Originally Posted by froghawk

and this is coming from someone who absolutely cannot get into Arx Fatalis, no matter how hard I try).

You are not worthy

[froghawk]

Well, I also never went as far back as the Ultima Underworld games - my experience with LGS begins with System Shock. Perhaps that is a problem. I've played a bit of Strife to see where the RPG/shooter hybrid began, but also haven't explored Cybermage, Bioforge, or the Crusader titles - so yes, I have a bit of work to do on the LGS history front.

My lack of engagement with Arx essentially stems from the clunky combat, constant bugs, dull and bland environments, lack of interesting characters, and lamentable dialogue and voice acting. I'm sure the game has other redeeming qualities, but it's tough for me to bring myself to keep slogging through in order to find them. I can't tell for the life of me why the game was considered such a classic, aside from the ability to bake pies and a unique magic system. Dark Messiah also had wretched dialogue and a completely generic story and setting, but at least the gameplay mechanics were polished and fun. Dishonored is Arkane's first truly awesome game IMO.

[CyberP]

Originally Posted by froghawk

. I've played a bit of Strife to see where the RPG/shooter hybrid began, .

The RPG shooter hybrid began with System Shock.

My lack of engagement with Arx essentially stems from the clunky combat, constant bugs, dull and bland environments, lack of interesting characters, and lamentable dialogue and voice acting. I'm sure the game has other redeeming qualities, but it's tough for me to bring myself to keep slogging through in order to find them. I can't tell for the life of me why the game was considered such a classic, aside from the ability to bake pies and a unique magic system. Dark Messiah also had wretched dialogue and a completely generic story and setting, but at least the gameplay mechanics were polished and fun. Dishonored is Arkane's first truly awesome game IMO.

Strange that I completely agree with you on Dark Messiah, but not Arx Fatalis.
But I dont think Dishonored is very good either.

[KenTWOu]

Originally Posted by HERESY

You're missing the point. If we're going to talk about candles being blown out and enemies not noticing certain things, DX:HR can't get a pass because the enemies fail to notice things as well.

DXHR isn't about thievery! It doesn't have similarities with Thief series, Dishonored obviously has them! Anyway Dishonored guards ignore doors, chests completely! DXHR guards notice opening of doors, windows, wardrobes, drawers, lockers... DXHR guards clearly win! There is no point to discuss this!

Originally Posted by HERESY

Every time I hacked a WOL no one was near...

Dishonored has several places where you can easily do that. The second mission already has such place, Sokolov's mission has such places. I tried this several times. Hell, I've spent over 120 hours on Dishonored (I've spent more hours on DXHR). They don't notice that WOL was hacked!

Originally Posted by HERESY

So why are you slamming Dishonored for "not doing basic stuff?" (Your words not mine.) You're missing the point, you mentioned no one noticing candles being blown out, again, in DX:HR, the guards don't even notice a FRIDGE that shouldn't be there. Both games have there own issues when it comes to this but you're attempting to pass it off as if it's just Dishonored.

Man, I'm not slamming Dishonored. DXHR has fridges, Dishonored has similar situation with unconscious bodies, I completely ignore such fundamental stuff when I criticize AI. Just explain it to nomotog that it's really hard to fix that serious fundamental problem that almost every stealth game has! Thief 3 has it, Splinter Cell 3 has it, Deus Ex has it, you name it. As far as i know nobody solves this thing! There are many such fundamental problems in stealth genre. For example, shadow and silhouette detection. Because even simplified ray tracing which AI use for player visual detection demands tons of hardware power if you begin to use it for everything.

Originally Posted by HERESY

So what if Thief 3 solved it? This thread is about comparing and contrasting Dishonored and DX:HR, not Thief 3.

Dishonored devs (Harvey Smith and Raphael Colantonio) said several times during different interviews that they keep Thief series in mind during Dishonored development, that they are huge fans of Thief series. They clearly made they game about thievery and creative kills. DXHR doesn't show you statistic screen where you can see exact amount of money you stole during the mission. Dishonored shows you such statistic screen, so it has strong focus on loot, it has safes, you can steal NPC's purses, NPC's keys, etc... DXHR doesn't have that stuff and that thievery focus, Deus Ex 1,2 don't have that focus also! That's why I compare Dishonored with Thief 3. But Splinter Cell 3 Chaos Theory has tons of similarities with DXHR, because both games about infiltrations! And Chaos Theory clearly wins because it has the most impressive stealth AI. It's even better than Thief 3 AI because it has slightly more features and it's much more polished. But it doesn't change the fact that DXHR has better AI than Dishonored!

Originally Posted by HERESY

Again, I've been caught leaning. Maybe I did do it wrong when I got caught...

I already explain this leaning mechanism to you. AI doesn't notice your head! You just do it wrong.

Originally Posted by HERESY

The targets didn't stand still for me.

I didn't say that all targets stand still. I said that some of them even stand still. For example, one of the Pendleton brothers, Daud, Martin. They just stand and wait you. They don't move through level like Thaddeus Campbell or Lady Boyle, so you have tons of opportunities to kill both of them.

Originally Posted by HERESY

And you can't blink out of every situation without being unoticed. You can blink into a bad sitaution and enemies will notice you and you can blink out and they'll still yell "Witchcraft!", ring the alarm and look for you.

Yeah, they notice you, but you still can blink out! And the worst thing. They forces you to take Blink in the beginning of the game! For example, 'Mark of the Ninja' also has Blink ability (the Mark of Serenity), but it forces you to use it only during one level! And if you choose that ability you lost all distraction items. So you have huge advantage and huge disadvantages. It's called balance! Unfortunately Dishonored doesn't have that balance.

Originally Posted by HERESY

Again, you don't have to use all the powers. You said you got all the achievements right? And you played through twice right? So when did you get your one for not playing with any upgrades? First or second run?

First run. But sometimes during the first run I spent runes and tried different power/ability/gadget combinations.

Originally Posted by HERESY

This does absolutely nothing to support your claim.

Really? DXHR game director explains that they made the game harder to force player to try different approaches!!! Dishonored devs don't do it! They clearly made the game for casual players, they made power fantasy. I already gave you several examples of it. There is no point to possess people and steal something, because they don't notice when you steal something right in front of their noses! There is no point to use keyholes, because enemies doesn't see/hear door opening and leaning makes your head invisible! Because of these problems some really impressive power features don't make sense in some situations.

Originally Posted by HERESY

More does not always mean better...

Again you didn't get the point! DXHR has non-lethal weapons for every possible situation. One enemy - takedown, shocker, very slow tranquilize rifle. Two enemies - double takedown, takedown + shocker, different grenades. Several enemies - PEPS, shocker + double takedown, different grenades. Short distance - shocker, takedown, double takedown. Medium distance - shocker, grenades. Long distance - tranquilize rifle, grenades... Cameras/turrets/robots - shocker, PEPS, EMI grenade. Tons of tactics and combinations! And you can make wall mines! It doesn't have more, it doesn't have less, it has enough non-lethal weapons! Dishonored has only two tools - choke hold and sleeping darts. Clearly, that's not enough especially for the game with such impressive chaos system!

Originally Posted by HERESY

Are you saying the weapons and powers don't allow for emergent gameplay?

I said that they allow impressive emergent gameplay. But unfortunately it's all about killing people! Even if you drop on somebody you can't immediately knock out him. He falls, stands up and you get an alert, because you can't choke alerted guard. But the player that choose lethal way could use 'death from above' ability.

Originally Posted by HERESY

Yes it does.

Yeah, of course I know about 'two' endings in MotN. But! These endings don't depend on your playstyle! They're not separate. You can ghost through the game and get both of them. You can kill everything that moves and still get both of them! If MotN will have similar moral endings and similar chaos system like Dishonored, I will demand more non-lethal weapons from MotN. That's it!

Originally Posted by HERESY

So if that's the most important feature why are you calling for more non-lethal weapons?

This is already hilarious. Emergent gameplay doesn't automatically mean violence and killing! The game has chaos system. The game has tutorial pop-up screen which forces you to not kill people. The game has good ending if you kill less people. The game allows you to not kill your main targets. But the game doesn't give you enough weapons/powers/gadgets to deal with usual enemies non-lethal way. It's a bad design decision! It's a bad game design document.

Originally Posted by HERESY

Ultimately, what does playing in a non-lethal way get you in DX: HR?

Sorry, but I just don't want to explain this. It's a huge offtopic and It's so obvious that there is no point to do it. But I admit that Dishonored has more consequences if that's what you mean. I already said that chaos system is impressive, but I think they should make it very very subtle (i.e. like Metro 2033). And I also gave few examples when devs didn't provide all possible consequences.

[froghawk]

Originally Posted by CyberP

The RPG shooter hybrid began with System Shock.

Huh, I guess you're right. For some reason I thought Cybermage and Strife came first, I guess because they're less technologically advanced.

Can you actually deny my complaints about Arx, though, despite what strengths you see?

[CyberP]

Originally Posted by froghawk

My lack of engagement with Arx essentially stems from the clunky combat,

Haven't played morrowind or oblivion then? It handles just how I expect it to. Define clunky?

constant bugs

Xbox version for me for most of my playthroughs (which has minimal bugs), but there is the recent Arx Libertatis fan patch/mod which fixes the majority of the PC bugs.

dull and bland environments

This is upsetting. shocking even. Each level is vastly different from the next! Plently of secrets to find, some books to read, puzzles to solve, gold to mine, locks to pick, herbs to pick to make medicine with. There is always something interesting around the corner and the environments couldn't be any better, especially since the game is set entirely underground, the amount of variation and interaction is amazing. Level design is great overall imo. There are no inconsistencies, obvious copy n paste, etc.
Disturbing.

lack of interesting characters

Yeah there is a lack of characters in general, but the ones that are there I find interesting- The Sisters of edurneum, the enemies, the friendly goblins. All the characters.
You can't expect to have intellectually stimulating philosophical debates with trolls or goblins, or the simple town folk now can you
Yeah they should probably have more lines too, but I find them far more interesting than the copy & paste skins, dialogue and voice acting from the Elder Scrolls characters.

,

and lamentable dialogue and voice acting

.
Yeah you won't find dialogue on par with Deus Ex for example, but the voice acting certainly is- half of the actors are excellent, the other half are randoms pulled off of the sidewalk. But that is part of the charm, and the game has charm by the bucket load.

Maybe you were on your man-period whilst you played , I don't know. But Arx is in my top ten list for sure.
Sure it's not as great as Deus Ex or VTMB or System Shock 2, but it's gameplay and atmosphere is what I love it for most.

[froghawk]

Yes, I've played Morrowind and Oblivion and their combat is also dreadful. Like most open world games, they do a lot of things and most of it is crap.

Maybe I'll have to try it with the mod you speak of, but I find your shock at my reaction to the levels to be hilarious. The textures are absurdly dull, and yes, you can do the things you speak of, but there's no excitement to any of it. I don't feel compelled in any way to explore the levels - the world just doesn't draw me in. There is no atmosphere that I find alluring, quite unlike the 3 games you mentioned at the end of your post. I've tried it on multiple occasions - it just doesn't do it for me. It has an unusual UI and magic system, but beyond that it seems to be a pretty generic dungeon crawl RPG.

[Darthassin]

In my opinion:
Story: DX:HR >>> Dishonored ( x > y means x greater than y)
Character development: DX:HR >>> Dishonored
Narrative: DX:HR >>> Dishonored
Combat: DX:HR >> Dishonored
Stealth: DX:HR > Dishonored
Other "pillars" of gp: DX:HR >>> Dishonored
Exploration: DX:HR>>Dishonored
Choices and Cons.: DX:HR>>Dishonored
Lenght: DX:HR>>>>Dishonored
Sound design: DX:HR >> Dishonored
Soundtrack: DX:HR >>>> Dishonored
GFX Engine: DX:HR =< Dishonored
Art Direction: IMO: DX:HR >>> Dishonored

[CyberP]

The textures are absurdly dull,

and yes, you can do the things you speak of, but there's no excitement to any of it.
I don't feel compelled in any way to explore the levels - the world just doesn't draw me in. There is no atmosphere that I find alluring, quite unlike the 3 games you mentioned at the end of your post. I've tried it on multiple occasions - it just doesn't do it for me.

It is worthy of the LGS legacy. Sure It has it's flaws, but the game world is not one. The atmosphere is great.

but beyond that it seems to be a pretty generic dungeon crawl RPG.

Please point me to these other dungeon crawlers that are like Arx, so I can play them immediately.
There are none that I know of other than Ultima Underworld 1 & 2, which Arx was intended to be a sequal to.

[HERESY]

Originally Posted by KenTWOu

DXHR isn't about thievery! It doesn't have similarities with Thief series, Dishonored obviously has them! Anyway Dishonored guards ignore doors, chests completely! DXHR guards notice opening of doors, windows, wardrobes, drawers, lockers... DXHR guards clearly win! There is no point to discuss this!

Please stop with the red-herrings.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...d-herring.html

We are NOT talking about Thief or Hitman Absolution or ANY game aside from Dishonored and DX:HR. Next you'll tell us it isn't about shooting because you can't mod the weapons like you would this game or that game. Please, for the sake of the thread; focus on these two games because that is what this thread is about.

Do you steal things in DX:HR? Yes. Do those things help your progress? Yes. Therefore, the game is very much about thievery. Again, the guards in DX:HR don't notice things as well, so what is your point?

Dishonored has several places where you can easily do that. The second mission already has such place, Sokolov's mission has such places. I tried this several times. Hell, I've spent over 120 hours on Dishonored (I've spent more hours on DXHR). They don't notice that WOL was hacked!

Every time I hacked it I either took the guards out or I waited until no guards were around. I've already stated that you can take the tanks out, the guards notice they're no longer working but don't investigate but at least they acknowledge something in the environment is off. In HR, you can slide a fridge into the middle of a warzone and no one is going to say anything.

Man, I'm not slamming Dishonored.

I don't care if you do or don't I'm simply partaking in a discussion. You can worship your Dishonored disk or crack it into a billion pieces. I don't get paid by Bethesda or Arkane, nor am I paid by Eidos. I'm simply voicing my opinion on the matter.

DXHR has fridges, Dishonored has similar situation with unconscious bodies, I completely ignore such fundamental stuff when I criticize AI.

Yet you spoke of unconscious bodies in your first post in the thread. That would mean you don't completely ignore such things when criticizing the AI.

Just explain it to nomotog that it's really hard to fix that serious fundamental problem that almost every stealth game has! Thief 3 has it, Splinter Cell 3 has it, Deus Ex has it, you name it. As far as i know nobody solves this thing! There are many such fundamental problems in stealth genre. For example, shadow and silhouette detection. Because even simplified ray tracing which AI use for player visual detection demands tons of hardware power if you begin to use it for everything.

See above and we aren't talking about any other game except for Dishonored and HR. We're comparing and contrasting these two games, no other games, so please stick to the topic.

Dishonored devs (Harvey Smith and Raphael Colantonio) said several times during different interviews that they keep Thief series in mind during Dishonored development, that they are huge fans of Thief series.

So?

They clearly made they game about thievery and creative kills. DXHR doesn't show you statistic screen where you can see exact amount of money you stole during the mission.

So? Dishonored also lacks a MAP and Dishonored only has a map you can see on posts/walls. Does that mean it isn't about exploration? LOL.

Dishonored shows you such statistic screen, so it has strong focus on loot, it has safes, you can steal NPC's purses, NPC's keys, etc... DXHR doesn't have that stuff and that thievery focus, Deus Ex 1,2 don't have that focus also!

I don't know what version of HR you played, but you can knock down NPCs and take their goods, you can rob the guys selling you weapons, you can knock out guards search them for ammo, you can steal passwords, etc.

That's why I compare Dishonored with Thief 3. But Splinter Cell 3 Chaos Theory has tons of similarities with DXHR, because both games about infiltrations! And Chaos Theory clearly wins because it has the most impressive stealth AI. It's even better than Thief 3 AI because it has slightly more features and it's much more polished. But it doesn't change the fact that DXHR has better AI than Dishonored!

For the 100th time, we aren't talking about any other game. When you reply back, make sure you just focus on the two games mentioned in the thread title. DISHONORED and DX:HR.

I already explain this leaning mechanism to you. AI doesn't notice your head! You just do it wrong.

And I said that maybe I did do it wrong so why are you mentioning it again?

I didn't say that all targets stand still. I said that some of them even stand still. For example, one of the Pendleton brothers, Daud, Martin. They just stand and wait you. They don't move through level like Thaddeus Campbell or Lady Boyle, so you have tons of opportunities to kill both of them.

Where did the bosses of HR go? Did they traverse throughout the levels?

Yeah, they notice you, but you still can blink out! And the worst thing. They forces you to take Blink in the beginning of the game!

You can still blink out, but once you're noticed you're noticed. and any achievement or ghost you were looking to be credited for at the end of the mission goes up in smoke.

For example, 'Mark of the Ninja' also has Blink ability (the Mark of Serenity), but it forces you to use it only during one level! And if you choose that ability you lost all distraction items. So you have huge advantage and huge disadvantages. It's called balance! Unfortunately Dishonored doesn't have that balance.

Again, balance is your opinion. They give you the option of not using Blink. You don't want to use it? Don't select it as a power.

First run. But sometimes during the first run I spent runes and tried different power/ability/gadget combinations.

So let me get this straight, you played the game twice, for 120 hours (I didn't even know the game kept play time) and on your first run you played the game with no power ups, aside from Blink, and you got the achievement for that?

Really? DXHR game director explains that they made the game harder to force player to try different approaches!!! Dishonored devs don't do it!

You were there when Arkane made the game? How do YOU know what they did or didn't do?

They clearly made the game for casual players, they made power fantasy.

Your opinion.

I already gave you several examples of it. There is no point to possess people and steal something, because they don't notice when you steal something right in front of their noses!

You don't have to just possess people. You can possess rats and fish so you aren't noticed.

There is no point to use keyholes, because enemies doesn't see/hear door opening and leaning makes your head invisible! Because of these problems some really impressive power features don't make sense in some situations.

We've discussed the leaning thing. Concerning the doors, I've only used the keyholes a couple of times so I could map out what I was going to do. Certain powers made no sense to me because I wasn’t playing in a way that required them. I needed possession but didn’t need the health. I needed the ability to see through the walls but didn’t need the wind power up. Every power up I had, I was able to use it to full advantage.

Again you didn't get the point! DXHR has non-lethal weapons for every possible situation. ..It doesn't have more, it doesn't have less, and it has enough non-lethal weapons! Dishonored has only two tools - choke hold and sleeping darts. Clearly, that's not enough especially for the game with such impressive chaos system!

Clearly it is enough which is why they provide you with achievements for playing that way. I don't need all those nifty gadgets to get through the game. You want them you don't need them. LOL@saying it doesn’t have more or less but then talking about how Dishonored only has two and needs more. Listen, if they wanted you to have more you would have more. Why would you spend 120 hours on a game you have so many complaints about? Let me give you an example of something I did, and I’m only brining this up to prove a point. I traded in Darksiders 2 because I was disappointed with it. I shelved Uncharted 3 and will NEVER pick it up again because I didn’t like the way Nate was running all over the place when I barely moved him. See, I don’t like those games; they need improvements so I felt so strongly about them I stopped playing them. So my question to you, again, is why would you play a game for 120 hours knowing you require more from it?

I said that they allow impressive emergent gameplay. But unfortunately it's all about killing people! Even if you drop on somebody you can't immediately knock out him. He falls, stands up and you get an alert, because you can't choke alerted guard. But the player that choose lethal way could use 'death from above' ability.

If you want to play non-lethal, you use the powers I listed. So what if you can make a gas grenade and use it to knock out 5 guys? They're non-lethal approach seems to me more of a stealth approach that limits what you can do if you go that route. I don't see a problem with it.

Yeah, of course I know about 'two' endings in MotN. But! These endings don't depend on your playstyle! They're not separate. You can ghost through the game and get both of them. You can kill everything that moves and still get both of them! If MotN will have similar moral endings and similar chaos system like Dishonored, I will demand more non-lethal weapons from MotN. That's it!

I was simply correcting you on the fact that the game has multiple endings. You said the game didn't have multiple endings and provided no clarity until it was brought to your attention just now, but let's move on.

This is already hilarious. Emergent gameplay doesn't automatically mean violence and killing!

This is hilarious. You don't want me to start pointing out the real comedy, I'd end up with so many warnings and points I'd be on the way out the door again...

The game has chaos system. The game has tutorial pop-up screen which forces you to not kill people. The game has good ending if you kill less people. The game allows you to not kill your main targets. But the game doesn't give you enough weapons/powers/gadgets to deal with usual enemies non-lethal way. It's a bad design decision! It's a bad game design document.

Your non-lethal way is to stay out of their way/sight, choke them out or put them to sleep with a dart. That is more than enough to get through the game.

Sorry, but I just don't want to explain this. It's a huge offtopic and It's so obvious that there is no point to do it.

It's not off-topic. We're comparing and contrasting the two games, so if we're going to compare and contrast the AI, the gadgets you keep lusting for and everything else you find wrong with the game, it only makes sense to talk about the endings of both games and how your play style will influence it. The ending you get depends on CHAOS right? Weren't you the one talking about CHAOS for a couple of posts now?

But I admit that Dishonored has more consequences if that's what you mean.

I meant what I said.

I already said that chaos system is impressive, but I think they should make it very very subtle (i.e. like Metro 2033). And I also gave few examples when devs didn't provide all possible consequences.

Huh?

[HERESY]

Originally Posted by froghawk

Thanks! I'm curious as to which aspects you disagree with, since your posts on the subject seem very level-headed (aside from avoiding Deus Ex because it is 'a relic' - relic or not, it's far better than any of the games discussed here - and this is coming from someone who absolutely cannot get into Arx Fatalis, no matter how hard I try).

I'll answer this when I get back tommorow.

[KenTWOu]

Originally Posted by HERESY

Do you steal things in DX:HR? Yes. Do those things help your progress? Yes.

Last time I played DXHR, I can't find purses and keys on NPCs' belts there. Therefore, DXHR isn't about thievery, it doesn't have the same focus on thievery as Thief and Dishonored. As I said It's about infiltration! It's obvious enough. It even has different level design principles, DXHR level design is all about obstacles. That's why it has mines, lasers, turrets, surveillance cameras, security systems, robots, alerts states, passwords and logins.

Originally Posted by HERESY

Again, the guards in DX:HR don't notice things as well, so what is your point?

My point is pretty clear. DXHR guards notice more things. Especially more basic things, that's very important for stealth play styles and for navigation through levels. Therefore, DXHR AI is much better and more challenging.

Originally Posted by HERESY

I've already stated that you can take the tanks out, the guards notice they're no longer working but don't investigate but at least they acknowledge something in the environment is off. In HR, you can slide a fridge into the middle of a warzone and no one is going to say anything.

Any device in Dishonored that uses tanks is a stationary device. Of course, sometimes they notice that because that thing is stationary! It's very easy to implement such AI routine. While fridge is a mobile object! I've already said that this fridge situation is similar to unconscious bodies in Dishonored. You can move one unconscious body from one place to another in Dishonored (and in DXHR too) and you won't get appropriate reaction from guards. Because it's really hard to make believable algorithm for that. It's really hard to teach AI to notice small changes in objects' positions, remember these objects and make distinctions between them.

Here is a stealth walkthrough of Hitman: Blood Money, look at this moment (1m 45s). AI knows how to take any potentially danger movable object, takes it in his hand and puts it in weapon stashes in a security room. That's why player hides his sniper rifle in a briefcase and throws it over a fence. At 1 min 45 sec you clearly see that AI doesn't work as good as it should. And player clearly exploits AI issue. He exploits the fact that AI doesn't understand that player takes briefcase in his hand, AI doesn't notice that weapon was in player's hands before. Because AI doesn't have memory. Moreover, you can take that weapon from that weapon stash and throw it right in the middle of the room and every time AI will stand up, take that prohibited weapon and put it in the stash. You can throw it again, AI will put it again. You can throw it again, AI will put it again. And every time he will say something like: "Who dropped this..." It's a typical exploit of AI simplifications. Make the same thing several times and you will get the same AI reaction which proves that AI is 'stupid'.

That's why design wise will be better to completely ignore some of these problems and don't spent your development resources on this. That's why in many stealth games Ai notices unconscious bodies. But doesn't notice dropped weapons, small items from your inventory, big items and these fridges. And doesn't notice when you take these objects from one place to another. Dishonored/DXHR guards forget about dead bodies completely after they found them because it's believable! Usual guard can't resurrect dead people anyway.

Remember Hitman's AI could take that weapon and put it in special weapon stash. Because almost every level has some kind of security room. And that's really impressive. DXHR guards can't take that fridge, they aren't strong enough, they aren't augmented and they don't know where to put it. There is no Lost & Found room for fridges.

So what should they do with the fridge? They should say they notice it? OK. Imagine a guard says something like this: "There is a fridge over there!" Than guard looks in another direction because he is searching you and you move that fridge and hide behind it again, cause fridge is a mobile cover. That guard looks at this fridge again and... obviously he doesn't have memory, that's why he will say: "There is a fridge over there!" Now you should understand that "guards notice fridges" doesn't fix this situation at all! Because guards don't have separate memory. This fridge situation is still absurd. But developers spent they resources on additional audio cues for every NPC and every big object like box, fridge, xerox... Was it so important? No!

Nobody fixes this, nobody makes such thing believable. That's why I don't compare stationary and mobile objects to each other and don't think about them. And don't think that fridge problem is so crucial for gameplay.

Originally Posted by HERESY

Yet you spoke of unconscious bodies in your first post in the thread. That would mean you don't completely ignore such things when criticizing the AI.

I've said they don't wake up each other and can't hear unconscious bodies snore and bodies disappear after awhile. I understand why developers made that snore. They want to give a player information about bodies' positions, but they should tone down that sound. Or make it significantly louder during using power abilities or the Heart. Because that snore makes AI completely deaf.

Originally Posted by HERESY

You can still blink out, but once you're noticed you're noticed. and any achievement or ghost you were looking to be credited for at the end of the mission goes up in smoke.

Yeah, because crazy achievements are so important when we talk about balance of any game

Originally Posted by HERESY

Again, balance is your opinion. They give you the option of not using Blink. You don't want to use it? Don't select it as a power.

Nope! They force me to use it. Dishonored level design seriously depends on Blink ability! Why? Because developers perfectly know that you have that ability in any mission and they make their levels around that fact. That's the problem! You can spend several minutes to get to the balcony in the second mission, but Blink allows you to get there almost instantly. And the most important issue, your mana regenerates after that. That's a pretty weird balance! That makes double jump power completely pointless for exploration.

Originally Posted by HERESY

You were there when Arkane made the game? How do YOU know what they did or didn't do?

One of the former Arkane developers said this. Said that they make the game easier during focus group tests. And it's really obvious when you start to play the game. For example, during Lady Boyle assassination her mystery admirer finds you almost instantly. Why? Because devs don't want to hide non-lethal approach from casual player. During the second mission the first two guards explain you non-lethal way to get rid of Overseer Campbell. Why? Because devs don't want to hide non-lethal approach from casual player. Et cetera.

Originally Posted by HERESY

Your opinion.

And that yours Man, that argument doesn't work here! Read professional journalists, some of them think the same. For example, RockPaperShotgun doesn't give Dishonored GOTY award for this reason. They clearly explain it in few articles that the game is about power fantasy, it's good, it's fun but it's not challenging and they quickly lost interest in it. Some players (myself included) said the same thing on Arkane forums. Yeah, DXHR has health/energy regeneration, but DXHR has better balance, guards are smarter (so you can easily make a mistake when you just open a door or take something from desk drawer), guards with shotguns quickly kill you in close quarter. One shot on the highest difficulty! And Adam doesn't have as overpowered as strong abilities as Corvo.

Check this out!

Disappointment: Dishonored (Arkane, Bethesda)

This will earn me some flack, I know. Caveats: 1) I don't like stealth games; 2) Dishonored inflamed my completist/perfectionist glands because I wasn't good enough at it; 3) I got stuck at a bug halfway through and never finished it.

Actually, I did enjoy it, and will finish it at some point but I was disappointed in the AI, and the fact that you were offered so many options but encouraged strongly to choose those I found least entertaining: stealth and mercy. Make of that what you will.

Originally Posted by HERESY

You don't have to just possess people. You can possess rats and fish so you aren't noticed.

I don't say that powers are pointless, I said that some really impressive power features don't make sense in some situations. Like double jump for example.

Originally Posted by HERESY

Clearly it is enough which is why they provide you with achievements for playing that way.

LOL, stop saying that non sense. Two non-lethal tools aren't enough for many many many different situations! When you deal with two enemies, group of enemies especially after alert. Hell, you can't even choke hold dogs! Because crossbow is a very slow weapon and you have only 10 sleeping darts! Moreover, you can't upgrade sleeping darts amount in your inventory! That's why non-lethal walkthrough is very repetitive, bland, dumb, doesn't have emergency, doesn't show the most important systems of the game, doesn't explain systemic approach. Non-lethal Dishonored is a dreadful game! Just read Dishonored forums, many players said about this for a reason. But you said non sense because you like this game very much. That's it. DXHR simply gave you more choices, I tried explain them briefly when I tell about different enemy groups and different distances. BUT Dishonored action approach is good enough: you have only three weapons but lots of powers and ammo types to get different tactics, and you can creatively mix them.

Originally Posted by HERESY

I don't need all those nifty gadgets to get through the game...

Yeah, because we all know that your play style is the most important thing! While I'm talking not only about my play style which this game clearly doesn't support. I'm talking about the range of play styles. DXHR range is simply much wider!

Originally Posted by HERESY

Why would you spend 120 hours on a game you have so many complaints about?

High-chaos Dishonored is a fantastic action game with tons of cool systems and memorable ending, but mediocre stealth game. By the way, you can't trade in PC games, almost every PC game has a serial key which you can use only once, that's why you must tie it to your online profile. DRM, you know. And it's really hard to make separate profile for every game and then try to sell that profile to somebody.

[froghawk]

Originally Posted by KenTWOu

It even has different level design principles, DXHR level design is all about obstacles. That's why it has mines, lasers, turrets, surveillance cameras, security systems, robots, alerts states, passwords and logins.

So watchtowers, walls of light, arc pylons, tripwire traps, alarms, etc.?

[HERESY]

@KenTWOu, this exchange is now unworthy of my time. I asked you to stop talking about games that clearly have nothing to do with this topic but you insist on citing Hitman and other games to prove your point. All I needed to do was glance through and see Hitman. I'm not going to even waste my time reading the post. You can have the last word but I'm moving the hell on.

@ froghawk, my apologies for responding so late. As you can see I've been busy. In regards to my comment and disagreement, after reading the post again, I can say that my disagreement was based on something I misread.

[KenTWOu]

Originally Posted by froghawk

So watchtowers, walls of light, arc pylons, tripwire traps, alarms, etc.?

Yeah, DIshonored has these things but it doesn't change anything. Because Dishonored vertical level design gives you too much freedom. Especially when Corvo has default Blink ability and Mirror's Edge/Crysis 2 acrobatics. Its level design is all about freedom of movement when almost every route is obvious enough. And every level has too many routes so these things don't create real obstacles. And these routes are so obvious that it makes speedrun walkthroughs really pointless. And makes ghosting very easy and unchallenging especially if you use Blink. Of course, I don't want to say that such level design is bad, it's really awesome. It's just not about infiltration. And guess what, Thief 3 has similar ideas.

Originally Posted by HERESY

@KenTWOu, this exchange is now unworthy of my time. I asked you to stop talking about games that clearly have nothing to do with this topic but you insist on citing Hitman and other games to prove your point...

It's a pretty obvious, I think. You find a certain fundamental flaw in DXHR AI behavior. I can't prove you that this flaw is really fundamental without naming other stealth games and giving you few examples of it. Now I give these examples to you and prove my point. Even Dishonored has that flaw. And you're saying this is offtopic? Yeah, sure! You can say everything you want, but DXHR is a much better game than Dishonored. And you can't prove otherwise.