Boyfriend

[Elliot Kane]

Originally Posted by Driber

Avoid the PC version of AoD at all costs. EK will vouch for this, lol.

Driber knows me well!

***

Metal,

Bioware have a long history of offering varied romantic choices in their RPGs. AFAIK, every RPG they have made from Jade Empire onwards includes the possibility of both gay and straight romances, with a couple of bisexual followers in each game. Or the player can simply romance no-one, if they prefer.

In an RPG, this works very well. If CD do finally take the plunge and make Lara Croft: The RPG, I think romantic options become possible. If they do not, romance of any kind is just a bad idea.

You guys know my opinion on this by now:

[Driber]

Originally Posted by Elliot Kane

Driber knows me well!

I think I'm not the only one

Oh and in your pic above: where is the boob size adjustment slidebar?

Originally Posted by pomeranianpuppy

Thanks for the cyber sex change Driber i always wanted to be able to pee standing up

lol, sorry. Darn these ambiguous forum usernames

Originally Posted by pomeranianpuppy

College bit was joking! The films established shes attracted to men but why not a little bi try? If done right i think it would be really sweet and endearing

What kind of scene do you have in mind?

[pomeranianpuppy]

Something like Lara and her friend whos happens to be a girl endure a journey like the island and while Laras fighting to save her they relise their feelings are stronger than just friends. Maybe like the first half of switchblade romance before ...well you know

[Metalrocks]

lol. nice pic EK
that would be actually a nice touch to have and RPG TR. yes, i know bioware has this history.
TR doenst have to be a full RPG game but it would be ncie anyway to have at least some choices how you want to play and in this case now, if you want lara to have a relationship or not.

[Elliot Kane]

Originally Posted by Driber

I think I'm not the only one

well, I'll grant that my... 'love'? for AoD is no secret!

Oh and in your pic above: where is the boob size adjustment slidebar?

That'd be handled in character generation. Along with adjustable sliders for leg length, hip width, favoured hair style and number of lovers of both sexes you want Lara to have in the game

***

Originally Posted by Metalrocks

lol. nice pic EK
that would be actually a nice touch to have and RPG TR. yes, i know bioware has this history.
TR doenst have to be a full RPG game but it would be ncie anyway to have at least some choices how you want to play and in this case now, if you want lara to have a relationship or not.

Thanks. Metal

And yeah, I think meaningful choice would be a good thing in a TR game. It's certainly the only way that 'romance options' could ever work, IMO, because of the huge differences between the fans on the issue.

[LARALOVERnr.1]

I do not see how a relationship could fit in a TR game and certainly not in this one..

I could understand (and might actually like) a few scenes in this game where Lara flirts with another male or female character (you KNOW there's more going on between Sem and her ), but an actual RELATIONSHIP or mature kinds of affection like making out or sex; Please no.
That would totally wipe out my vision of Lara as the unreachable woman. She will look at you, she will flirt with you, but she will never be with anyone; She's a single player.

[Metalrocks]

well, maybe we will not have it in this TR but the next one might have it. CD knows about it and now we even have a thread regarding this topic. and from the looks of it, people have mixed opinions about it.
so an optional romance would be suitable for everyone.

[pomeranianpuppy]

I wouldn't want anything too graphic either some knowing eye contact or them waking up together in the same bed would suffice

[Andy64]

Originally Posted by Driber

But having Lara being romantically involved with someone from the same sex, is likely going to cause a hell of a lot more controversy.

Especially in America, which is like half of the audience.

I would hope the audiance could be mature enough to handle something like that if it did happen. Certainly here in the UK same-sex relationship are more a part of mainstreem culture. I am not completely against Lara in a same-sex relationship but I havn't seen any signs Lara goes that direction and I don't see this tension between Lara and Amanda that some have noticed.

Originally Posted by GemmaDarkmoon

I think the most likely relationship would be short term though for a story development element like a boyfriend betraying Lara or a man Lara gets close to being murdered by a villain.

I always thought that Lara was alone because she is quite private and more a loner but I quite like the idea that she maybe single because she is scared that a partner may come to harm because of her job. A new take on it.

[MissShortieB]

i havent completed AoD startd to play it when was a kid and never finished it! wonna play it again!

[Elliot Kane]

There is definitely tension between Lara & Amanda, but it's not sexual. It's basically that of two once-good-friends who now feel deeply wounded and betrayed by each other.

Amanda genuinely believes that Lara left her to die; Lara genuinely feels betrayed by Amanda surviving and not bothering to tell her. As far as Lara is concerned, she did everything short of dying herself. This festered for about a decade, with Lara regretting she could not save Amanda and Amanda nursing the pain of her good friend's betrayal.

This is what causes the bitterness and regret between them.

In the flashback with Young Lara and Young Amanda, there's no indication that they are more than friends at all. Lara tries to help/rescue all the others she comes across instead of bee-lining for Amanda, which she would have done if they were lovers. Nor does Amanda seek her, especially.

Even at the end, expecting to die at any moment and with just the two of them there, the whole vibe is 'How do we get out?' NOT 'I must save my lover!'

Not that I worked all this out in considerable detail for my comic or anything...

[Metalrocks]

Originally Posted by Elliot Kane

There is definitely tension between Lara & Amanda, but it's not sexual. It's basically that of two once-good-friends who now feel deeply wounded and betrayed by each other.

Amanda genuinely believes that Lara left her to die; Lara genuinely feels betrayed by Amanda surviving and not bothering to tell her. As far as Lara is concerned, she did everything short of dying herself. This festered for about a decade, with Lara regretting she could not save Amanda and Amanda nursing the pain of her good friend's betrayal.

This is what causes the bitterness and regret between them.

In the flashback with Young Lara and Young Amanda, there's no indication that they are more than friends at all. Lara tries to help/rescue all the others she comes across instead of bee-lining for Amanda, which she would have done if they were lovers. Nor does Amanda seek her, especially.

Even at the end, expecting to die at any moment and with just the two of them there, the whole vibe is 'How do we get out?' NOT 'I must save my lover!'

Not that I worked all this out in considerable detail for my comic or anything...

i see it this way as well. it never appeared to me that amanda and lara are having strong feelings for each other. they just looked like good friends to me but due unfortunate circumstances, they became enemies.

@pomeranianpuppy
my thoughts as well. only because this TR is for mature people, doesnt mean we have to see any sex scenes. even whens just a sex scene as we see in ME. just some kissing would do just fine.

[MusicFreak2013]

Maybe not this one, but the next one.........?

[adobeARTIST]

Originally Posted by Driber

You sure do get a lot of use of that image, don't you?

and yes, I do know I'm among the guilty too, haha

Originally Posted by Elliot Kane

I actually think Lara's sexuality/romantic relationships is one of those things best left unexplored. Every single one of us has our own ideas on the matter, and as several threads have so far shown, no two of us ever completely agree.

I think it's fair to say that the TR forum probably represents TR fans generally, at least on this one issue. And if WE can't reach any kind of consensus, imagine the ructions...

This, I should imagine, is the dilemma faced by the developers, and why the awkward silence when the subject came up, as mentioned by the OP.

Lara may well be in an 18 rated game and the future is surely a more adult slant on the character, but I suspect there is nothing that would divide TR fans more than this - or more passionately than this!

Tomb Raider is, basically, a game series about explorer, archaeologist and all round adventuress Lara Croft. It's not a dating sim. I don't want it to be a dating sim, and I absolutely and totally do NOT want to find Lara railroaded into a romance (Or fling, or whatever) with any man, woman or anthropomorphic personification where I have no control whatsoever over the outcome.

Lara Croft: The RPG, I have always liked the idea of. Lara Croft: The JRPG, never!

Of all the reasons not to do it, the possibility that "it might go all wrong, and oh the fan balcklash" is the worst possible reason. Giving up without even trying is totally defeatist.

Originally Posted by The Hylden

If done well, anything is possible.

Now this is more like it. A little optimism. More importantly, not having and adverse reaction before we've actually seen the result. It can work if properly executed, so it's worth a chance for the opportunity to better flesh out Lara in the interests of humanization.

But getting back to your earlier post Elliot;

You take this idea of trying to appeal to everybody, and any writer that attempts this (even in literature or film, not just games) is what WILL result in failure. As a general principle it's not the writers job to try and create the character they think the audince wants, since there is no concensus. They have to craft the character to their vision, not what you want. (you being not just you Elliot, but anybody who thinks the character should meet their approval).

If they tried to meet our approval over every little thing, then they may as well give up and drop making the game altogether. "but what if they don't like our level design? Or the music? Or the combat? Or the main plot? Or the support characters? If they get angry it's all over for us? dammit why even bother?"

What's with all this about a dating sim? Spiderman is about a nerd who fights crime and protcts his city of New York. But even in btween that he has his romantic moments. Lots of stories have romantic elements which are not dating sims. And for that matter why why why whyyyyyyyy do you always bring up the RPG card? You really think that's the only genre that can have it and that it can only be permitted where it's in the players control?

What about Assassin's Creed 2? Ezio had his love affairs. The Prince of Persia had his attraction and desire for Farah and Kaileena. Cloud was in love with Aerith. Nathan Drake flirts with Chloe.

All these are in pre-scripted plots that we have no say in. It's part of the game makers character and plot development in what is after all linear stories that don't encompass role playing. Is the writing completely destroyed simply because we were unable to direct the character towards the path we thought they should go?

Do you complain in non RPG linear games when we can't stop the main character from killing a bunch of soldiers or one nemesis in particular? Or when we can't stop them from blowing up a starship? Then why should it be an issue with romances that we witness as part of the game makers story? It certainly shouldn't.

[Elliot Kane]

Adobe,

Of all the reasons not to do it, the possibility that "it might go all wrong, and oh the fan balcklash" is the worst possible reason. Giving up without even trying is totally defeatist.

That reasoning could be used to justify anything, good or bad. And honestly, when you are making a commercial release that you are actually hoping to sell to people, 'the fan backlash' is the best possible reason, coz it's your future income and job on the line. I expect that's exactly how CD look at it, even if we don't. And I don't blame them one bit.

The question I would like to hope we fans are all asking ourselves is not 'what happens if this is tried?' but 'SHOULD this be tried?' You and I have a very different answer to that question, based in who we think Lara is and how we conceive her to be.

For me, it really does not come down to 'It could go wrong'. It comes down to 'This is a really bad idea!' To me, Lara is Artemis, not Aphrodite.

You take this idea of trying to appeal to everybody, and any writer that attempts this (even in literature or film, not just games) is what WILL result in failure. As a general principle it's not the writers job to try and create the character they think the audince wants, since there is no concensus. They have to craft the character to their vision, not what you want. (you being not just you Elliot, but anybody who thinks the character should meet their approval).

But Adobe, is your OWN argument not 'I want Lara to meet with my approval?'

And before you lecture me on writing, I'd like you to do a little light reading, please.

I'll be the first to admit I'm not the world's greatest writer, but I certainly understand the process, thank you very much.

If they tried to meet our approval over every little thing, then they may as well give up and drop making the game altogether. "but what if they don't like our level design? Or the music? Or the combat? Or the main plot? Or the support characters? If they get angry it's all over for us? dammit why even bother?"

But your OWN argument is still entirely based on what YOU want. Which is fair enough. But it's a really lousy basis on which to debate someone else's opinion.

What's with all this about a dating sim? Lots of stories have romantic elements which are not dating sims. And for that matter why why why whyyyyyyyy do you always bring up the RPG card? You really think that's the only genre that can have it and that it can only be permitted where it's in the players control?

Of course it's not the ONLY way to do it. But given the controversy that would surround any Lara romance, it's surely the BEST way to do it.

What about Assassin's Creed 2? Ezio had his love affairs. The Prince of Persia had his attraction and desire for Farah and Kaileena. Cloud was in love with Aerith. Nathan Drake flirts with Chloe.

And all of these games were about iconic characters who had already been established over eight previous games, were they? I think not!

When we meet a character TRULY for the first time, we get to know them FOR the first time - including who they love and hate. We form opinions from what we are shown.

All these are in prescripted plots that we have no say in. It's part of the game makers character development in what is after all linear stories that don't encompass role playing. Is the writing completely destroyed simply because we were unable to direct the character towards the path we thought they should go?

Point missing still, Adobe. Who would complain that a brand new character with no history had a romance in a game? Totally different from a long established and high profile game series suddeny introducing it.

Do you complain in non RPG linear games when we can't stop the main character from killing a bunch of soldiers or one nemesis in particular? Then why should it be an issue with romances that we witness as part of the game makers story? It certainly shouldn't.

Actually? Sometimes I do, yes. If the hero(ine) is being an idiot and I can't stop it, my estimation for the game will drop. Anything that flows out of blatant plot contrivance rather than being an action that naturally flows from who the character is will always annoy.

[adobeARTIST]

So you're actually endorsing the idea that anybody who writes a book or film script should look at their script, and compromise their story to appease the mob?

Sorry but I just can't accept that. This is "art by comittee", which makes it not art at all. And I'm not saying that some fan consideration shouldn't be taken into consideration. I mean none of us wants to see lara mutated into a completely unrecognizable character in this reboot.

But NO good can ever come from editing out of fear.

[Elliot Kane]

Suggest you check out all the stuff I edited into my last post, Adobe. I actually missed that most of that was aimed at me, as it largely followed on from your reply to Hylden

[pomeranianpuppy]

They could at least give it a go in the future if people hate it that much she can always dump them or they die. It'd be nice to see other croft siblings like a grandma

[Driber]

I feel compelled to point out that the theory of "we're not going to make Lara have a boyfriend, because the fans might dislike that" should probably be adjusted to "we're not going to make Lara have a boyfriend, because the audience might dislike that".

Originally Posted by Andy64

I would hope the audiance could be mature enough to handle something like that if it did happen. Certainly here in the UK same-sex relationship are more a part of mainstreem culture. I am not completely against Lara in a same-sex relationship but I havn't seen any signs Lara goes that direction and I don't see this tension between Lara and Amanda that some have noticed.

I would hope so, too. But I'm pretty sure the world is not ready for Lara turning gay in this point in time. And I'm not particularly interested to see TR being a pioneer in changing the world that way :/

[Elliot Kane]

Originally Posted by Driber

I feel compelled to point out that the theory of "we're not going to make Lara have a boyfriend, because the fans might dislike that" should probably be adjusted to "we're not going to make Lara have a boyfriend, because the audience might dislike that".

Good correction, Driber, yeah. Heck of a lot more people out there who may play it without ever really being fans.

[Elliot Kane]

You know what? There's one thing I have completely forgotten, so far, that is surely a factor in any possible romance sub-plot: time.

The average TR game plays out over, what, a week? Tops?

This certainly doesn't preclude a bit of mild flirting (Which Lara has always done a bit anyway, and I don't think anyone is objecting to) but it would be pretty hard to build up any kind of relationship within the TR games unless that time frame were greatly extended.

[adobeARTIST]

Ok, seen the edit after the fact, but let me get back to it.

Yes I have been expressing what I'd like to see as far as a Lara relationship, as have you from the opposite position. I'm not actually questioning what you'd like to see, but rather the underlying motive, the "why" behind your nay stance.

My reasoning for endorsing relationships is for the advancement of Lara's character development. To create emotional depth and really explore what's going on beneath the surface beyond the mere outward actions. It's actually about Lara herself and what it can add to her life, or another way to look at it, expanding on the fiction which drives the game.

But from everything you've said, it seems the motive for your against vote on the issue isn't about Lara herself. You haven't gone to any lengths about what a relationship would mean within the context of her life. Your focus has been on the premise that the developers would best avoid the matter out of fear of how we the fans would react.

And I say again that is a terrible approach to writing. They're the ones telling the story, so they should tell the one they want to. Isn't that how all stories are told, be that game, movie, or book? And yes we can judge it, that's our prerogative, but only after we've experienced it (or read it, or what ever) can we make such a judgement. But they (and all writers) can't and shouldn't attempt to divert their story based on a "maybe" reaction for the same reason we can't judge a story before it's been written.

Is it challenging to incorporate romantic plot lines into the story that is genuine and convining within the context of the characters? Of course it is. But should the attempt be avoided simply because it could go wrong? NO. There is no guaruntee of success, but fear of failing without trying is a cowards route. So the team at CD has to really put a lot of effort into it. That's their job to and deal with the fallout after the last line is done.

And guess what? While I have made my statements why I think a relationship (or any kind of romantic interest) would be a good thing, if it doesn't happen, I'm not going to boycott CD or question their integrity just because things didn't go the way I hoped or expected. So I do hold myself just as accountable that my wishes shouldn't be the foundation of their plans. Like I said, it's their story and I can accept that my preferences are no reason for them to derail what ever direction they were intent on taking Lara in. Sometimes unexpected developments lead to interesting destinations.

Which brings me to another point. This argument in this thred has gotten so hung up on labels (mainly the word "relationship") that it lost sight of the difference between a relationship and romantic interest. Lara's characterization is about her personality development, and that is at the core. What she chooses to do with her feelings is another matter entirely. In other words we can get the deeper characterization without her getting involved on any commited level, simply by showing that she is a fully aware human being who like everybody else experiences attraction and reacts accordinly, which can occur on an emotional level, physical level (you know what I mean ), or both.

Look around to what I posted so many times. It doesn't have to be a commited relationship, it can be just about Lara flirting or even showing she admires a man's looks. My argument has always been about getting to the core of Lara and creating a human/emotional context, moreso than the actions itself.

That said, while I would be happy to see the empotional depth of Lara through simple human interaction (just give is a glimpse that there's more to her beneath the surface) even in a brief and momentary encounter, there's another reason I endorse the idea of Lara getting completely intimately involvd with someone. From a writing standpoint, having someone meaningful in her life presents even more story opportunities. People voting against are really shutting Lara off from more possibilites. And isn't more preferable to less in that regard?

Oh and Elliot, I never meant to question your writing ability. I've immensly enjoyed your web comic series bringing Lara and the Doctor together, to which I admire your talent. Please don't think I would ever deny that

[Driber]

Originally Posted by adobeARTIST

Your focus has been on the premise that the developers would best avoid the matter out of fear of how we the fans audience would react.

fixed

Originally Posted by adobeARTIST

And I say again that is a terrible approach to writing. They're the ones telling the story, so they should tell the one they want to. Isn't that how all stories are told, be that game, movie, or book?

I don't think so, Tim.

Many writers intentionally write exactly what their audience likes.

And in the case of TR9, let's not forget it's not a book; the writer herself doesn't have full say in what goes and what doesn't. Rhianna's script probably has to go through a whole line of people, ranging from PR to legal to the game director.

I am pretty sure Rhianna doesn't have the creative freedom to for example write a chapter where Lara marries a woman and emigrates to America, adopts a Malawian child and uses the child in a plot to assassinate the president. And thank god for that, lol.

Back to regular books - I think that the kind of writers that you seem to prefer (the ones that write whatever they want, without caring about reviews, controversies, etc) are rare, or at least in the far minority. I think that most writers actually care quite a bit about how their stories are going to go down with the readers. Or with the press.

Originally Posted by adobeARTIST

Is it challenging to incorporate romantic plot lines into the story that is genuine and convining within the context of the characters? Of course it is. But should the attempt be avoided simply because it could go wrong? NO. There is no guaruntee of success, but fear of failing without trying is a cowards route. So the team at CD has to really put a lot of effort into it. That's their job to and deal with the fallout after the last line is done.

Actually, I think CD's main job is to make sure their game sells well. Sure they have the theoretical option of doing all kinds of risky or crazy things with their games in the name of "artistic freedom", but at the end of the day they are still a company that will stop to exist if they take too many risks that lead to flops.

Originally Posted by adobeARTIST

Look around to what I posted so many times. It doesn't have to be a commited relationship, it can be just about Lara flirting or even showing she admires a man's looks.

I don't think anyone has been arguing against this. Unless I missed something?

Lara has already done this, as you can see in the Lara&Kurtis video on the previous page. So I don't think anyone would have a problem with that.

[Elliot Kane]

Pretty much what Driber said, yeah

My own personal opinion amounts to this:

1. Lara is fully committed and dedicated to her profession/obsession. She is not someone who would ever give less than 100% to anything, and she knows that a relationship would require time and compromise that she is not prepared to give. Tomb Raiding is her one and only true love.

2. Lara is not a team player. Other people are competition who spur her on to new heights, or subordinates to assist her with research, etc, but never to join her in the field. Compare her approach to Amanda's in Legend to see exactly what I mean.

3. Lara knows she's hotter than Hell, and she's not at all averse to either flirting with the opposition, or mocking them with what they can't have. It's part of competing, to her. But when has she ever flirted with anyone who is actually on her side? It just never happens. She's all business with them. Her looks are another weapon in her arsenal, basically. Her focus remains entirely on her goals.

My entire visualisation of Lara is summed up by my comparing her with Artemis, who is the virgin Huntress. Artemis is the absolute mistress of the hunt, capable of defeating any and all foes who dare come against her, but she is never and can never be 'caught' herself, by anyone. Like Lara, she would never lower herself to be with less than an equal, and also like Lara, where on Earth could she find one?

That is my actual opinion, based on having played every single TR game from first to last. Yours may - and probably does - differ.

(So if anyone has ever wondered if I'll ever do a 'Lara in love' comic, the answer is no! )

***

Oh and Elliot, I never meant to question your writing ability. I've immensly enjoyed your web comic series bringing Lara and the Doctor together, to which I admire your talent. Please don't think I would ever deny that

Comics are a new medium for me, and I don't write them very well, yet, honestly. I'm still learning. I'm far better as a prose writer. Not least because it's a whole lot easier to juggle massive casts of characters...

[d1n0_xD]

I loved how "love" was handled in the TR comics, and I was so sad reading them...

There's this guy who tricked Lara a long time ago, but now in present time, he goes on raids with here, so he can make some money... And the whole times he tries to re-ignite the love, but Lara just keeps pushing him away... And he tries again, and she just tells him about how he betrayed her... But she still loves him! And he dies at some point, and Lara became sad and that's when the comics started to drift away from that story, I don't know if the writer was changed or something... But it was really engaging and well-written!