LoK & it's influence on gaming

[OugaBooga1]

Yo yo yo WORD to yall !!!
Starting a thread to convince Eidos/SE on how Blood Omen/Legacy of kain has influenced gaming over the last 1 1/2 decades!
Many games have copied/emulated/incorparated the characteristics/qualities of of the Lok series & i would like ppl to recount their experiences with games they've played that clearly were influenced by the LoK series.
For the most part, i am talking about bo1,sr1 & 2 as being the driving force in changing the gaming landscape.
I will add comment after a good nites sleep.
Thx in advnc 4 sharing.

[The Hylden]

Honestly, besides the no loading and the shifting world/alternate worlds of SR1, for the most part, the gameplay of the LoK series has actually been more influenced from other games, than they from it. Now, if we're talking story, or voice acting, story structure (cinematic/theatrical), then I do believe LoK has left a lasting influence on games that are now far more structured like living films, with similar act beats of that, or TV mini series, or theatrical plays. And certainly the level of voice acting in the LoK games, along with others, have continued the trend in most games that are successful. No-one wants cheesy dialogue and acting, well, unless that's the campiness of the genre, like some horror games and stuff like that. The storyline of a dark anti-hero, and also of no real good and evil, but only shades of gray to mill through, has been seen in many titles since. So, yeah, story and structure, acting and such, all of that has definitely left an impact and is remembered by other devs.

SR1 has influenced a few other series that have used light and dark worlds, alternating worlds and such that the player is shifted through. Maybe not directly, and maybe the other game devs came up with the same approach independent, but at the very least, you see a common thread in a lot of series using this, like Silent Hill, Metroid Prime 2, Zelda: Twilight Princess, Prince of Persia 2008, and so on... The no loading thing was a big thing that a lot of titles used to get praise on. lol, however, as you can see, now that's almost reverted with such hard strains needed for graphics. Most titles do not load on the fly, nor probably will again any time soon. Heck, Soul Reaver 2 shirked this concept itself, so bye, bye, inovation! hehe.

[essex1990]

Originally Posted by The Hylden

Honestly, besides the no loading and the shifting world/alternate worlds of SR1, for the most part, the gameplay of the LoK series has actually been more influenced from other games, than they from it. Now, if we're talking story, or voice acting, story structure (cinematic/theatrical), then I do believe LoK has left a lasting influence on games that are now far more structured like living films, with similar act beats of that, or TV mini series, or theatrical plays. And certainly the level of voice acting in the LoK games, along with others, have continued the trend in most games that are successful. No-one wants cheesy dialogue and acting, well, unless that's the campiness of the genre, like some horror games and stuff like that. The storyline of a dark anti-hero, and also of no real good and evil, but only shades of gray to mill through, has been seen in many titles since. So, yeah, story and structure, acting and such, all of that has definitely left an impact and is remembered by other devs.

SR1 has influenced a few other series that have used light and dark worlds, alternating worlds and such that the player is shifted through. Maybe not directly, and maybe the other game devs came up with the same approach independent, but at the very least, you see a common thread in a lot of series using this, like Silent Hill, Metroid Prime 2, Zelda: Twilight Princess, Prince of Persia 2008, and so on... The no loading thing was a big thing that a lot of titles used to get praise on. lol, however, as you can see, now that's almost reverted with such hard strains needed for graphics. Most titles do not load on the fly, nor probably will again any time soon. Heck, Soul Reaver 2 shirked this concept itself, so bye, bye, inovation! hehe.

if ported over to PS3 ... could that not solve the problem of loading as it has faster hardware?

[The Hylden]

...Do you mean for SR2? I guess. That's not what I meant, though. I stated that SR1 had a band new inovation of creating a 3D world that loaded on the fly and so, there were no loading times while you played. It was praised for this inovation. Yet, the demands of graphics since then, even in the very sequel to it, SR2, has made this, for the most part in gaming, not achievable again. Current games are constantly pushing graphics to the point that there has to be preloading, for most, if not all of the new titles. And, as graphics will only constantly increase almost exponentially with the next gen coming, this will still be the case, most likely.

You never know, though. One day, we might have our perfect virtual worlds that are so seamless, we're all lost in them as if they were the real world. Then Neo will come and save us all, as we'll need to wake up from being nothing but human batteries for the machines

haha

[OugaBooga1]

1 game i recently have been playing is darksiders, it reminds me of the SR & Defiance.
There's other games that "borrowed" the soul collecting thing like painkiller.
Garshasp: The Monster Slayer has been influenced & some of the creatures have that messed up broken wing look on their backs.
I know LoK has borrowed a bit but i think more games have borrowed from LoK.

[Mr.Milky]

I'm pretty much sure that LoK series influenced many modern arcade fighting adventure games, such as Assassins Creed, for instance. And many modern RPGs.

If I remember correctly BO2 was one of the rare games for its time to require 2GB memory. I had to upgrade my HDD for it.

While BO2 was one of the pioneers for the PC style of arcade fighting game, playing those on a console wasn't something new.

Anyway, I've found major similarities between Altair and Kain. Look at their standing still position and you'll see major similarities.

[Topherous86]

LoK inspired many a game. Darksiders, God of War, Assassin's Creed, Uncharted. You can see that every developer played the LoK series. In fact, I'm sure if Naughty Dog didn't play those games before, Amy Hennig made them do it when she joined them.

[Teldar]

Doesn't even one of the DLC's for Oblivion have a reference to LoK?

Anyway, I think what the LoK series, and mostly SR1, did influence the most was the bar it set for story telling and voice acting in games. Whenever I think about a game franchise with the absolutely best told story, then I think of Baldur's Gate and LoK . With voice acting it's about the same as well, though LoK feels all in all better in that division than BG.

[Linikratyo]

Darksiders has definitely been influenced by LoK, though the developers won't admit it

Another one would be the newest Wolfenstein

[Paradoks]

As much as i love LoK I have to admit that it's influence on gaming is minimal.
It was known for taking inspiration rather than inspiring others. The only really unique thing about LoK was it's atmosphere, story and writing - and that unfortunately is ignored by most games. The only really impressive original mechanic was the Spectral Realm.

Originally Posted by Linikratyo

Darksiders has definitely been influenced by LoK, though the developers won't admit it

Another one would be the newest Wolfenstein

What are you talking about - the similarities are obviously coincidental :



I can't wait for Darksiders 2 by the way.

[OugaBooga1]

yup, death is gonna be fun

[Topherous86]

Dragon Age as well might I add. I mean, Simon Templeman is one of the bad guys in Origins. He wouldn't be voicing half the characters in games today if not for his work as Kain.

[Mr.Milky]

As much as i love LoK I have to admit that it's influence on gaming is minimal

Why do you think so? And how can you prove that the influence is "minimal"?! What are the terms that you used to make such a claim?! :}

Quite frankly, I see completely the opposite. Only, thankfully, SR isn't as popular as modern titles. And I don't see from where the SR "took" their inspiration from.

[Paradoks]

Originally Posted by Mr.Milky

Why do you think so? And how can you prove that the influence is "minimal"?! What are the terms that you used to make such a claim?! :}

I simply don't see any elements in games that can be considered as inspired by LoK. Reminds me of one thread on these boards stating that "Starcraft 2 is copying Soul Reaver". No, it was copying Starcraft 1 (which in turn was copying Warhammer 40K).

Quite frankly, I see completely the opposite. Only, thankfully, SR isn't as popular as modern titles. And I don't see from where the SR "took" their inspiration from.

Mainly from here. Just like countless other games.

[Corlagon]

Originally Posted by Mr.Milky

Only, thankfully, SR isn't as popular as modern titles.

Why "thankfully"?

[Mr.Milky]

-Thankfully- because the game isn't popular. Today, modern games have a bad tendency to dwell upon bad storytelling rather than innovation. SR comes from the near end of golden era of gaming that ended somewhere around 2005. year...
If the game was that popular it would make people to demand things, to misinterpret what's behind it and to play it for the factor "popular" rather than "good quality". ]

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I simply don't see any elements in games that can be considered as inspired by LoK. Reminds me of one thread on these boards stating that "Starcraft 2 is copying Soul Reaver". No, it was copying Starcraft 1 (which in turn was copying Warhammer 40K).

You're talking about in-game mechanics. Influences aren't always based on them. You're looking for the 'revolutionary" aspect that will conclude the job of searching similarities for you.

I'm not sure how many similar games have you played or did you play when the SR1 and BO2 came out, but many games followed the same concept. In fact they even did a whole lot of resemblance to the LoK series.

Take, for instance, nearly any Bo1 alike game for PC.
Than take nearly all puzzle solving action-adventure games that didn't come from Eidos.

Than, for instance, take Assassins Creed. Compare the look of the hood and compare the look of Kain in BO2.


Than, take, for instance, the look of the Aprentince in the Star wars - Force Unleashed in level 2.
Than take darksiders.

That's just the surface of what I know regarding the obvious influences. However for those not so obvious I'm making a list and it will take some time. Anyway, many action/adventure themed games are following the same concept. Whether they took it from Tomb Raider or LoK - pretty much the same.

[Paradoks]

Originally Posted by Mr.Milky

You're talking about in-game mechanics. Influences aren't always based on them. You're looking for the 'revolutionary" aspect that will conclude the job of searching similarities for you.

No, I'm talking about anything. From my perspective all examples thus far can be only described as similarities, far from 'obvious influences'. A generic pose is a generic pose. Not to mention that BO2 was shamelessly copying Thief art style.

[Mr.Milky]

Well, you're completely entitled to your oppinion regarding the matter. Thankfully, that doesn't make it a fact.

Those "similarities" are obvious ones.

Just like when you talk about LoZ regarding BO1, similarities. Hopefully, you did watch / play all the games on the list so that you realize what I'm talking about. Anyway, I won't bother you anymore because you've clearly made your mind that LoK series didn't influence on anything.

[Paradoks]

Originally Posted by Mr.Milky

Well, you're completely entitled to your oppinion regarding the matter. Thankfully, that doesn't make it a fact.

Likewise .

[Corlagon]

Originally Posted by Mr.Milky

-Thankfully- because the game isn't popular. Today, modern games have a bad tendency to dwell upon bad storytelling rather than innovation. SR comes from the near end of golden era of gaming that ended somewhere around 2005. year...
If the game was that popular it would make people to demand things, to misinterpret what's behind it and to play it for the factor "popular" rather than "good quality". ]

No offence intended, but it sounds a little like you're trying to have it both ways: pushing the idea that LoK has been more than minimally influential on the direction gaming has taken... but then saying that gaming is actually going in the wrong direction and conceding that LoK isn't really a popular series.

I have to agree with the Hylden and Paradoks (and with the second part of what you said ). Believe me when I say I've gone through a lot of news articles, journalistically-credible and otherwise, related to the series. I've only ever seen two games which people unequivocally agree must have been influenced by the LoK series: Darksiders, and Wolfenstein (2009). God of War players also invoke Soul Reaver now and again, and there was a (seemingly cancelled) game being developed, named Edge of Twilight, which also cited SR1.

Otherwise, though, it's tough to find anybody proclaiming that anything other than SR1 was truly unique. I think the biggest influence LoK has had is vicarious, coming through the talent responsible for working on it - particularly with Uncharted (led by former SR devs) and Dead Space (led by former BO2 devs).

As a fan, though, I don't mind that Legacy of Kain remains an obscure cult classic without the best gameplay. That doesn't diminish my enjoyment of it. The original five games were plagued with time constraints and problems, and were made up as the devs went along, but the result is great. It's an absolute conceptual goldmine, with a really solid and engaging story defined and set in place, and that almost ensures it'll be looked at again someday. Contrary to your opinion, good stories are increasingly becoming a very big deal in the gaming industry nowadays. So long as nobody plunders LoK's ideas or does them better in the meantime, there'll always be a great chance that they'll be able to attach some truly innovative gameplay to complement their interpretation of the plot whenever there's a remake or a reboot or a reimagining, and maybe deliver a real work of art. That's always going to be much more than the fans of Tomb Raider or Kane and Lynch or whatever can ever hope for.

[Mr.Milky]

No offence intended, but it sounds a little like you're trying to have it both ways: pushing the idea that LoK has been more than minimally influential on the direction gaming has taken... but then saying that gaming is actually going in the wrong direction and conceding that LoK isn't really a popular series.

I'd like that games like LoK series have the praise that they deserve. Just like Magicka, TES, Portal and Half-Life. Whenever I see a poll on game forums regarding best game vampires all I see is VTMB and Blood Rayne. I mean, c'mon. Sure, none of the games are following strict canon of vampires but seeing how little these games are praised. It hurts.
I wouldn't like that LoK gets too popular because it'll become a MMO. A fact. Stated in the pre-SR era with clans, abilities of the clans etc.

All those games are similar in the terms of the in-game mechanics and are easy to be seen as a reminder of something. Just like GoW reminds on PoP. And just like slicing someone in full gore reminds and will always remind on MK games. Or the execution of controls to "finish" the execution of NPC/PC - forever will be characterized as something from MK.
Those are not "influences" regarding the game but, selectively, regarding the game mechanics. Influences on the games are seen trough the concept of gameplay and setting, rather than anything else. For instance, RTCW reminds me more on Unreal series. While Force unleashed reminds me more on SR series. And Darksiders remind me more on the combat mechanics of the Raziel or, better yet, Dumahim.

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I have to say and notice that LoK games helped a lot to the action/adventure titles with puzzle solving factors. While noticing those isn't as obvious they're essentially there and will continue to be.
Anyway, if anyone wants to see what I'm talking about - please, play Force Unleashed and you'll notice for yourself. :}

[OugaBooga1]

funny thing while playing diablo 3 i think i heard moebius talking.
Some 1 here mentioned about making a MMO out of LoK & i think it could work.
I still think that the mechanics & art style from LoK is used in many other games.

[ghostlion88]

Yeah, it's probably true that as far as gameplay goes LOK series took more influence from other games than they left in the gaming world, but you know what? That's not a bad thing, because they executed that influence very well. Xplay even called the first Blood Omen an "under-the-radar Zelda clone," but it certainly was not a clone as far as its story and progress went.

Games copy and clone all the time, and all that really matters is that they do it well enough. Defiance certainly took a lot from Devil May Cry in its combat and general gameplay. It was sort of like a softcore version of Devil May Cry...and yet it played much better than Devil May Cry 2, which is still a decent game nonetheless.

The important thing in LOK has always been the story and atmospheric presentation. Isn't that what really kept us all playing? Certainly doesn't hurt that it's still one of the funnest series to replay.

And for the record, yes, Soul Reaver was extremely innovative. I can't understand why more games never used that warping-world idea to shift planes. Shadow Man was one of the few other adventure games ever made that lets you traverse to the underworld or dead world (or Dead Side, as it's called), and even that was a totally different landscape. I guess it would take a lot of RAM up, since it's always in the code that the game is instantly ready to transform the landscape, warp it, change the color and stuff.

I'm pretty spoiled by all the cool gimmicky trippy things video games do these days, and yet I still frequently fire up my old copies of Soul Reaver through Defiance, and it feels so invigorating to shift at will. I sit there (or stand, because I often stand while playing video games) with wide glazed over eyes going "Wwwooooowoww...so pretty...look at it morph and turn all bluey..." Never gets old.

Oh, I guess Silent Hill game sort of do that too, into the nightmare versions of areas you explore. Those are always done in cutscenes though, you can't shift at will or go back and forth really, and it isn't organically integrated into puzzle-solving or exploration elements as much. I only played up to SH Origins, in case I missed anything.

LOK series are still extremely innovative and unique for their plot, and the fact that they have VAMPIRES!! Most vampire media these days is incredibly dry and lame. I found Priest boring, Fright Night lack luster, and the games that center around vampires....do they even have any new ones? (Besides Bloodrayne Betrayal, which I love!)