THE CITY WATCH 2012 - News/Tweets -UPDATE: EM & Crystal Dynamics collaboration for TR

[dda]

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

Which one you think is better... A small light level indicator in the HUD, or a full-screen effect that washes out all the color whenever you are unseen in shadows?

Indicator.

[DJ Riff]

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

Which one you think is better... A small light level indicator in the HUD, or a full-screen effect that washes out all the color whenever you are unseen in shadows?

Indicator. Washing out colors depending on PC's position regardless of what he's actually seeing is what I'd call a cheap 2D effect. Reducing color saturation when looking into dark areas would be OK though.

[Firetaffer]

Originally Posted by DJ Riff

Indicator. Washing out colors depending on PC's position regardless of what he's actually seeing is what I'd call a cheap 2D effect. Reducing color saturation when looking into dark areas would be OK though.

On your avatar, it looks like there's a persons head at the centre of the cray-thingy!

[DJ Riff]

Originally Posted by Firetaffer

On your avatar, it looks like there's a persons head at the centre of the cray-thingy!

Craymen generally don't like being called a "thingy".

[cGREGgo]

Eidos-Montreal are currently inviting select people under NDA for a test drive of Thief 4 on X360. A few snoopers contacted us to share their experience: A large part of the game is played in third-person: mantling, movement and even archery. The game goes in first person mode when triggering a mechanism, when a reading a note and more importantly when using the “sneak” toggle: this mode has body awareness and blackjacking. The two levels that our informers played were extremely linear and 90% of the progression was done using third-person view, but it’s difficult to jump to conclusions after only one hour of play. After all, it would be very surprising that 90% of a Thief game is spent not sneaking!

To be continued…


This came from http://thief4.ru/

(They have more pictures over there.)

[wdogify]

This is old news: http://www.nofrag.com/2010/nov/07/36150/

[cGREGgo]

I can't read that...

[wdogify]

It's the same, but in french, it's the first site that gave this news.

[cGREGgo]

I was going to take French in school, but I went with typing...

(I'm glad I took typing, I use it everyday of my life.)

[cGREGgo]

Those pictures look awesome! I like this one...

http://thief4.ru/wp-content/gallery/thief-art/th4as.jpg

[DJ Riff]

Originally Posted by cGREGgo

Those pictures look awesome! I like this one...
http://thief4.ru/wp-content/gallery/thief-art/th4as.jpg

They are mostly stolen from this very thread.

[cGREGgo]

OMG - A THIEF! ha!



My first time seeing them!

I think it's funny how there are those hanging around here complaining we have no news, but WOW! How much more do they want? We know they gave up 2 levels to test drive. They can't really give us more without giving us the full game can they? Shouldn't they be saying "thank you" instead?

I would guess this game is very close to being complete, they just put those 2 levels out there to test before release?

[MarrowMonkey]

Originally Posted by cGREGgo

The two levels that our informers played were extremely linear and 90% of the progression was done using third-person view, but it’s difficult to jump to conclusions after only one hour of play.

If that is the case they might as well not release it...

[Bizany]

"Design the parallel story of the game and characters to link it with the structure of the game."
"...help with the development of the various features during preproduction."

Now, read it backwards...

"...preproduction...parallel story of the game and characters... (existing*) structure of the game."

DLC anyone?

Didn't they start making DLC for DE:HR a year or so in advance before it was even released? I would say that this is a great sign, that they are confident enough with the existing mechanics to begin another project based on them. If they follow the DE:HR model, that means a reveal should be by December, with a showing at next E3, and then a release for the main game late next year.

...with obligatory DLC within six months after that.

I highly doubt it's linear; didn't most of the level designers list designing multi-solution, non-linear levels?

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by Bizany

Didn't they start making DLC for DE:HR a year or so in advance before it was even released? I would say that this is a great sign, that they are confident enough with the existing mechanics to begin another project based on them. If they follow the DE:HR model, that means a reveal should be by December, with a showing at next E3, and then a release for the main game late next year.

No, it's definitely not "a great sign". It's the total opposite. Developing a DLC in parallel with the main game is a sign of intentional deception and fraud. It's artificial product price inflation. Make a full game, release a portion of it at full price, and then release the rest for extra charge. It's evil, and it is an invitation to pay absolutely nothing because the people who do that don't deserve a dime for neither the main game or the DLC. And people need to keep paying nothing until they understand.

If you think your game is good enough, you could actually make it more expensive. But if you try to fool customers into paying more than what they think they're paying, that's when you deserve to get robbed instead. And again, I'm not saying anything. -Anything besides wondering sarcastically "I just can't figure out why piracy happens?"

[MarrowMonkey]

Originally Posted by Bizany

I highly doubt it's linear; didn't most of the level designers list designing multi-solution, non-linear levels?

They also marketed DX:HR as being multi-solution and non-linear. That meant, instead of going through one door to get to the next corridor, you got the choice of going through door a or b to get to the same corridor. Didn't do much to promote creative solutions or emergent game-play.

[Rockn-Roll]

Originally Posted by Bizany

DLC anyone?

That's what I thought when I read "parallel story". But, I think it's more likely that they have abandoned a sandbox style gameplay in favor of multiple options similar to what Deus Ex: Human Revolution used i.e. there is no way to play the game without completing some goals, but a parallel story will occur depending on how you complete those goals. For example, if you steal a crown by backstabbing all of the guards and just grabbing the crown even though it sets off the alarm then running out before more guards show...a consequence evolves into a specific outcome. but, if you steal that crown by sneaking past the guards and disabling the security and pocketing the crown and getting out without anyone knowing anything is amiss i.e. ghosting the mission...a different outcome is possible.

This does provide more evidence that the version of Thief 4 which was used to produce the leaked December trailer has been completely scrapped and a whole new design is being developed. If Thief 4 has been dropped back into preproduction then it looks like Thief 4 won't be finished for at least another 3 years...probably more seeing as how most of EM's Thief 4 developers are now working on an unannounced game instead of Thief 4.

[Bizany]

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

No, it's definitely not "a great sign". It's the total opposite. Developing a DLC in parallel with the main game is a sign of intentional deception and fraud. It's artificial product price inflation. Make a full game, release a portion of it at full price, and then release the rest for extra charge. It's evil, and it is an invitation to pay absolutely nothing because the people who do that don't deserve a dime for neither the main game or the DLC. And people need to keep paying nothing until they understand.

If you think your game is good enough, you could actually make it more expensive. But if you try to fool customers into paying more than what they think they're paying, that's when you deserve to get robbed instead. And again, I'm not saying anything. -Anything besides wondering sarcastically "I just can't figure out why piracy happens?"

You mis-understand me. In the face of speculation that the entire game has been scrapped, it's a good sign that it is still in healthy condition. It wasn't about the pro's and con's of DLC that I was referring to.

At any rate, IF it is DLC that is being hinted at by the job offers, it sounds little like they gutted the core game to milk users for extra content. Everything would seem to be separate, with a different storyline arc. (hence, parallel) I think that the Missing Link provides a good basis for an assumption of what EM will do. DLC, but non-essential; and a later release means that that it can better resolve creative differences/issues that were in the core game. If you have an issue with it, can you clarify what you think was wrong with the Missing Link? DLC is such an offensive word these days; perhaps you would prefer to think of it as an "expansion pack"?

I agree entirely, though, that as a consumer you may buy what you please. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Just remember that you are not entitled to anything. If there is one reprimand that can be given to the game community in general these days, it's that they are just as greedy and as whiny as the publishers. That's also the main reason I think piracy happens.

@MarrowMonkey

That's a little harsh on DE:HR; its level structure was comprised of a series of "bubbles" - yes, you had a linear progression from one to another, but there were many routes to navigate through each one. I was still finding new ones on my second playthrough, and I had scoured it on my first run through.

The same can be said of many of Thief's core missions: from any of the Maw's (which are horribly linear), to the trailing mission, to the Thieves' Guild, Lost City, submarine mission, etc.

There were some gems that were free-form (Assassins, Return to the Cathedral, etc.), but there were in DE:HR, too (The Hive, ShangHai parking garage, etc.).

They are also difficult to compare because the game design objectives differ. Thief is about casing the place, DE:HR was about getting to point X.

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by Bizany

The same can be said of many of Thief's core missions: from any of the Maw's (which are horribly linear), to the trailing mission, to the Thieves' Guild, Lost City, submarine mission, etc.

There were some gems that were free-form (Assassins, Return to the Cathedral, etc.), but there were in DE:HR, too (The Hive, ShangHai parking garage, etc.).

This was brought up by someone else previously too. The supreme logic of... "Thief has a few linear missions amidst the non-linear ones, and DXHR has a few non-linear ones amidst the linear ones. Therefore they are equally linear!"

[Blue Sky]

The free form comes from the various ways you can interact with the AI, as well as multiple paths.

There were plenty of tools and tricks you could play in Deus Ex Human Revolution depending on what you had in your inventory, etc. There were a hell of a lot of options...it was up to the player whether they wished to explore them or not.

[5055672439]

Third person?... :'( :S that's painful. I really hope they give you at least an option to play in first person. I'm sure the majority of the cominity wanted a first person stealth game like the majority of the series.

[thieffer]

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

And again, I'm not saying anything. -Anything besides wondering sarcastically "I just can't figure out why piracy happens?"

- that's another way round : that's exactly because the whole torrent era started the developers (or rather publishers to be precise) were pushed to explore all the possible ways to monetize their labor-time and to look for an extra-profit..

- you can also tell that to one strange bunch of fellas that go by the name of "The Looking Glass Studio" - they have surely got a thing or two to say on the whole "geedy developers rant" subj.? - If those guys knew how to be a bit more "greedy" and extra-profitable at a certain point we would already have Thief 4 by the authors of the original game by now, no?

- also, what is the problem with a developer making a DLC (that noone forces you to buy) for your favourite game (that at the same time turns out to be one of the best games of all times) anyway?!

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by thieffer

- also, what is the problem with a developer making a DLC (that noone forces you to buy) for your favourite game (that at the same time turns out to be one of the best games of all times) anyway?!

Simply the dishonesty of it all. A game and a DLC are not actually developed at the same time. There's just the game being made. A part of the game is simply separated from the whole. The incomplete part is sold under the banner of "the full game" at full price, and the rest is sold separately for an extra charge. "Noone forces you to buy" is misleading, and actually kinda incorrect. Because of the fact that it is just a part of the full release sold separately, it is an essential part of the game except you need to acquire it on top of the main game. Secondly, you have already paid full price for a game. Full price for a game that was deliberately cut in pieces in post production. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything. The people who sold the product are simply holding part of it hostage, demanding ransom.

If the game would be good enough to begin with, no such dishonest tactic of artificial price inflation would be necessary. You could actually sell the game at a higher price from the start. If you think the game has 15$ more content than the average game, have at it. I've bought games that actually have had that much more content than any game with the same price. Like San Andreas, Half-Life 2, or Skyrim. I would have paid 15$ extra for them.

If there is a release date DLC, the only justifiable price can be proportional. If the game has budget of 10 million, and is sold at 40$, you can divvy it up. You as an individual pay 40$ for the man-hours the developers spent on the whole game during development. You pay your share. A release date DLC is a tiny operation compared to the full development combined, since it's just planning and strategic separation of game content that was already developed. It can't take even 10% of the full 10 million budget. Therefore, the price of the DLC can only be less than 10% of the price of the full game. Less than 4$. You only pay for the few man-hours spent on taking that game content away from the full product and putting it into a separate package. Paying 20$ for a DLC that was just game content separated from the main 40$ game basically means, that the developers are expecting you to believe that repackaging those game assets was a third of their budget, so you need to pay your fair share.

Bethesda made Skyrim and started developing an expansion with the profits made from the sales of the original. And I think that's the only way you can justify calling something an "expansion". When the extra work has been done on top of the initial development, and actually is proportional, that's when you have an expansion. And that's when the price is justified.

I know you forgot one part that I said which makes all of this sound unfairly entitled. So I'll say it again. If the full game actually is worth the extra 15$, I'll pay 55$ for it. But that's the standard version of the game. Not the deluxe professional edition with an included release date DLC. Then there can be a cheap-arse version also, with certain features deliberately removed, (normally would be called the standard version) -this time called something other. Maybe that can be the "deluxe" version. Afterall, many luxurious products are often inferior than their affordable everyday equivalents. Like champagne. The more expensive it is, the worse it tastes. Relese date DLCs are just a cynical plot to make idiots pay more than what they think they're paying, and smarter people resent those who planned that.

[auricgoldfinger]

So these 'fans of the original' that the devs claim to be, want the game in third-person? Or did they just say they were fans to placate us? Or did the publisher command it, I wonder, fishing for the dollar of those who have only played 3rd person stealth games?

Once again my fears that they'll try to screw with a perfect formula are confirmed.

I won't be getting it unless it can be 1st person 100% of the time. Don't know how anyone else feels...

[Bizany]

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

This was brought up by someone else previously too. The supreme logic of... "Thief has a few linear missions amidst the non-linear ones, and DXHR has a few non-linear ones amidst the linear ones. Therefore they are equally linear!"

I never called any of DE:HR's levels strictly linear, I said they were a linear progression of bubble-hopping. Each bubble contained free-form, multi-path gameplay. The same can be said of most of Thief's missions, too.

But if you want a full listing of the more dynamic missions: the Police Station, the Penthouse, the Hive, Alice Garden Pods, the ShangHai parking garage, the assembly hall (where you confront Taggert), and Singapore. Those 7 missions are all non-linear, non-bubbly affairs that account for a large portion of the game. (roughly half the game, if you don't include side-missions) The rest are of the bubble variety.

What I DID call linear was both of Thief's Maw missions.

But you know what, if you can mention a single level out of the entire DE:HR level repotoir (sans the training mission), that were strictly linear or did not promote emergent gameplay, I'll concede your point.

Now concerning DLC:

It's fair to assume that a company will act according to their track record, correct?
Can you tell me what your problem was with the Missing Link?
DLC gouging (on-disk DLC, broken gameplay mechanics) is a problem, but it's also one that I haven't seen EM (or Square-Enix in general) making. Hence, no need for a fuss here.

@auricgoldfinger

I agree with you, nothing is as immersive as an exclusively 1st person game for me. Plus, it makes navigating across skinny beams, narrow ledges, and tight corners so much easier. While it seems 3rd person is likely, hopefully they will properly support a first person perspective for those of us craving it (unlike Deadly Shadows). But even if they don't, I'll probably suffer through it again like I did before.