Nosgoth: Beyond the Mountains, Oceans and Kain's vision as an Emperor.

[Ber]

Hi there guys!

Well... If you remember I came up with a little research a couple of weeks ago entitled "Animal life in Nosgoth", and I really enjoyed sharing thoughts with it and putting the list together!

Now I decided to do another small research to see what the LoK fanbase thinks about the world of Nosgoth in general.

I remember a similar post was made a long time ago, where people discussed if Nosgoth was a country, the entire world or a continent... I'd like to resurrect this topic and let you know my thoughts:

Here we go, I hope it doesn't get too confusing:

- In the time of Blood Omen (based in medieval times - sort of) Nosgoth could have been believed as the entire world for its population - under the concept of "Earth is flat" that existed in medieval times.

- I believe that this concept changed with the years, obviously Nosgoth's human population eventually technologically progressed to the point of reaching a "industrial revolution" stage by the time Blood Omen 2 takes place. Under this scheme and based in what we have seen in BO2 I think the actual knowledge of the land Nosgoth might have expanded:

1. Humans now disposed of Glyph magic for a long period of time, Glyph magic acts in similar ways to electricity and fuel; because of this sailing ships have evolved to the point of being able to cross oceans.

2. Meridian is a highly developed port city (we know some ships salied to the Hylden City but it's also possible that other ships were sailing to potential overseas ports for trade (I am not sure about this, but if I remember well, there was a globe depicted in BO2).

- After the defeat of the Sarafan Order by Kain, it is very likely that Nosgoth was engulfed by war once again, I imagine the remainings of the Sarafan Order and other human "kingdoms" would have raised to stop Kain from conquering them. This would have caused a slight regression in Nosgoth's progress - stopping commerce and trade overseas for approximately 100 years.

*** Under these theories I would dare to say that Nosgoth was possibly a big country that is part of a larger continent (think about Russia in comparison to Asia) approximately. With potential pieces of land also lying beyond the mountain chains to the north, east and west.

Nosgoth's borders are probably delimited by the mountain chains which are likely to be very high and though to pass, however some other smaller countries might keep existing beyond them.

- Probably before Kain's Empire Nosgoth was the world known and all the small towns and cities in it worked as small countries (not that this is important but it's how I imagine it) with the biggest ones being Avernus and Willendorf.

- After Kain conquered Nosgoth and the major human kingdoms fell, it is very likely he unified all the cities under his rule - transforming them into an Empire.

- I believe that Kain's "ambition" was to rule Nosgoth and only Nosgoth as he stated during the games. After all and by real examples the greatest empires in history fell because they just got too big, I believe Kain knew better than that and ruled an Empire that kept itself controlled and by controlling how far it reached... I am sure that it managed to conquer some other cities we have not seen yet but definitely not the whole continent. Once established as an Empire Kain would have started trading relationships with the other countries or, as I like to call them "Free Lands", always keeping control over his Empire. (Thanks GOT xD)

So fare these are my thoughts, please let me know what you think and if you have any questions... I'm doing this because I'd like to gather as much info as I can for a long term project I'm working on .

Best!

Ber.

[The Hylden]

There has been off an on discussions about this, yes. There is no concrete conclusion to be drawn, and there are plenty with varying views out there.

Besides the maps and ingame terrane you cover as Kain, or Raziel (especially SR1, where Raz went to each clan territory, labeled by Kain as reaching the "four corners of Nosgoth"), I'll just stick to the ingame dialogue for a moment.

The biggest near conclusive line of dialogue offered comes from Kain in Defiance, when looking at The Pillars in the past again before they became corrupted:

"I could restore the world, perhaps, but never again could I give Nosgoth back her innocence." This line uses the term world and follows it up with Nosgoth seemingly describing the same thing. The world can be restored, but it can never again be innocent, not after all it's been through. Substitute Nosgoth in place there and it reads the same. Now, Kain could be offering up a distinction between this part of the world, in only it, Nosgoth, will never again be untainted, while the world in entirety might be restorable. The scars here will always remain -- something like that. However, that's a lot to have to extrapolate, and it doesn't appear to me that he's going that rout. Perhaps I'm wrong. However, here's the next dialogue from the EG from SR2:

"And now you see the wasteland wrought by the tyrant's hand. By his selfish decision to preserve his own life, even when it meant sacrificing the whole world. This is the fate of Nosgoth, as long as Kain remains alive."

Again, the use of Nosgoth follows first the distinction of the entire world. It doesn't conclude that this is the world he means, and he could merely be again drawing a distinction here within it, but this is a theme. The EG shouldn't so much concern himself with the fate of Nosgoth in particular in lieu of the entire planet, but he states this other times, while also preaching that he's the hub of the entire world's destiny. More from the EG in SR1:

"This world is wracked with cataclysms - the earth strains to shrug off the pestilence of Kain’s parasitic empire.

The fate of this world was preordained in an instant, by a solitary man. Unwilling to martyr himself to restore Nosgoth’s balance, Kain condemned the world to the decay you see. In that moment, the unraveling began... now it is nearly played out. Nosgoth teeters on the brink of collapse - its fragile balance cannot hold."

Again, we see the term world, this time both preceding and following Nosgoth, possibly to define Nosgoth as the world. Or, possibly not. The first line does follow world with earth (and since this dialogue is typed up by fans, I cannot say that the EG simply meant the ground, or that he meant a lowercased earth, or upper; however, the ground, itself, struggling through quakes to overthrow Kain's empire seems to me to be what the EG means here).

From SR2's earlier scene, Raziel and Kain at the Pillars:

"This is the sublime moment of our undoing, Raziel - the ineffable fulcrum upon which swings the entirety of our history. This is where all of Nosgoth is betrayed."

This moment seems to be illustrating where the entire fate of the world became at stake, the fate of destiny and time, and of Nosgoth. Yet, if Nosgoth is simply the land, or a continent/country within the world, it almost seems out of place, like Kain should have said this is where our entire world is betrayed. Again, nothing is ever specific, but for instance, Moebius and a host of others call out Raziel as the Savior of Nosgoth. It seems he should be prophesied to be the savior of the whole world, as the world is literally at stake (not to mention time, dimensions -- existence). Also, would this continent, or country, have been called Nosgoth by the Ancients as well thousands of years prior? That much is possible, but you'd almost think that the humans would have renamed it after they rebelled, much like a conquered country in our own history will be renamed. However, not always, but the thought just came to mind.

As to the knowledge of this being a planet, that other bodies are out there, it appears that there was knowledge of this even in this medieval-like past, and even before that, perhaps. For instance, Moebius' ending monologue for SR1, after Raziel meets him in the past:

"Where time is but a loop, a loose stitch in the universal cloth, a streamer might seize upon a chance, a fatal slip -- and plunge the fate of planets into chaos."

He not only knows he's on a planet, by this description, but he knows of other planets out there as well (interestingly, I'd love to know how he would also conceive of altering fates on other planets… Maybe the various different dimensions' fates also change, and their version of Nosgoth and the world are the other planets he means, the ones existing along side the material realm one here? This is never further explored, so we might never know)


As the creator of the Chronoplast and the other time chambers, there are depictions of both space and of orbital bodies. The Chronoplast, once Kain switches it on, activates above the rotating depiction of a solar system at work. These spheres rotate around other spheres, locked together on isolating orbital paths up there, which if they do depict a solar system, show accurately the relationship planets have to one another's orbit with gravity and centrifugal force at work.

The star fields in the Chronoplast's various portals also are telling, as are the ones constantly churning above the individual time chambers Moebius created. The "switch" Raziel has to throw in those chambers are also comprised of a globe with actual poles. He turns the poles on a diagonal axis, much like our own poles of Earth, in order to activate the machine.


A similar structure also holds the Nexus Stone in BO2, where you fight ol' dizzy Sebastian. Perhaps those in Nosgoth just liked globes orbiting each other, while not understanding that they can look like planets. The Ancients also have this in the Dark and Light Forges. The moon and sun both are depicted as their proper round celestial shapes. That doesn't outright prove, though, that they knew that they were also on a planet. There also are globes of similar rotating design in the Eternal Prison.


That's about all I can think of right now as far as making a case either way. I think there is as much evidence for as against. Personally, I believe that Nosgoth is the name of the world. How much of that world has been conquered, might never be known. I can certainly see how the term could be thought of as meaning only the land here that we see, or the country, or the continent they are on in the world; or, one other possibility that others have thought this meant, that Nosgoth is the name of this realm. Realm, however, seems to indicate to me something other than an actual planet, but a magical place…

Further, I actually think this is by design on CD's part. While I think they might have their own definitive of what this is, be it a world, or a land/continent/etc., I think that they left the dialogue and description as open as possible so that we, the fans, can draw whatever conclusion we want for it. Maybe they did this because they thought it isn't pertinent to whether we should love the story -- in fact, it might be designed not to be distinct so it doesn't get in the way of the story -- so they leave it a bit ambiguous for us.

But, yeah, I think it's the planet's name. It makes sense to me that way. I'm interested to see what others' thoughts might be on this, see what I might not be thinking of.

A lot of typing.


Oh, another piece of evidence, one that goes against it being a planet, actually: it has a capital. Meridian. Our own planet does not; only countries and states have capitals here.

[Corlagon]

Wonderful analysis Hylden, I think you covered everything. I would only invoke the following comment from Chris Bruno:

Originally Posted by Chris@Crystal

What is Nosgoth, a land, a continent, or a planet?
It has always been referred to as the Land of Nosgoth.

That way we can get a better perspective on the scope of the story. Does it affect the entire planet or just an area around the pillars?
I don't think a planet has ever been mentioned in the series. Since it is just a story, not all rules of science or logic apply.

Chris got it wrong about planets being unmentioned, but nevertheless.

Personally, though I'm convinced that it's a planet, I would hope that the question is never officially locked down one way or the other, even if there is another game and Nosgoth expands. The geographical region we see, whether it's a land, a continent or anything else, is what really matters, and nothing more's required. I think it's important that that particular mystery is always preserved and open to interpretation. Knowing where the setting's spatial limits are, and where it becomes circumnavigable, would actually detract from my enjoyment.

P.S. If we're going to suggest a theory of ignorance when it comes to the populace's understanding of what their world is, in the same vein as pre-Magellan Earth, just keep the following in mind:

1) we have up to three sapient species in this place who can fly wherever they like (ancients, vampires with bat flight, and Razielim),
2) we have magic and a Guardian of Dimension who "[controls] and [defines] the very boundaries, consistency and form of space itself",
and 3) even "alien" or pseudo-alien beings such as the Elder God, the Demons, the Hylden and the Sarafan Lord all make use of the word "Nosgoth" at one time or another.

[Paradoks]

Originally Posted by Ber

the concept of "Earth is flat" that existed in medieval times.

A little off-topic but no, it didn't exist in medieval times (or should I say it was very unpopular to be precise). A very popular misconception.

[TheSquid]

Leaving it unknown is a trick. It makes Nosgoth more accessible, like how The Simpsons cartoon uses a generic Springfield so people everywhere can be drawn into the story easier.

It's refreshing to see the view that there's other human kingdoms still out there beyond the empire, surviving. They could be sending crusades into the empire (doomed to fail, mostly, but Dumah's fall could be their big success story). Or outsiders can be sending supplies like extra flamethrower ammo to the humans within the empire to try and prop up the last human footholds inside vampire territory. These distant human kingdoms would be suffering from the decay too. Would they know the cause was centered around the pillars? If knowledge of the pillars was widespread they'd realize that something was rotten in Pillar Land and they'd try to relieve the pillars from vampire control to see if that cured the world. But they're not the dominant species anymore so their efforts would fail. It'd be a sad story of waiting and withering for these kingdoms.

The empire wouldn't need to be about world dominance if it was mainly about claiming all the grazing lands filled with humans that the vampires required and then living high on the hog. Isn't there a natural lazyness in well-fed vampires??? So as long as they were fat and content, they'd not hastle their neighbors too much (that could make all the difference). Would they be tempted to just stop expanding their territory when they ran into natural barriers like mountain ranges and oceans? Also, for necros, the ocean may have prevented them from expanding the empire overseas, since their lethal water weakness would make the ocean more of a solid barrier than it was for Earth empires. But again, if they were able to open a teleport gate overseas, then all bets would be off. If that kingdom managed to smash the gate, however, humans could succeed in taking back their lands! Kain (with his self-teleporting ability) might come in person to make them pay for that, but then he'd tire of them and go home eventually, so their kingdoms would eventually carry on and go back to normal..... almost. Maybe after swearing fealty and turning some of their population over to join the vampire's feeding herd? The world's kingdoms would live in fear of K. suddenly popping in to their royal court for a visit.


Re: Distance---- Isn't it weird that the clans scattered to the four corners of nosgoth can be visited quickly on foot like a bunch of suburbs bunched together? That's a small scale empire, man. Like a country only, by our standards. Those teleport gates could be the great equalizer, though. Using them would mean there was no distance, really. If trouble broke out anywhere in the (worldwide?) empire you could be there within the hour to quell it. So after teaching each region a few harsh lessons, the land would stay pacified without necrovampires having to constantly occupy every street corner? So the clan territories in SR1 could represent the city of Rome with its 5 hills. (A central command area for a much wider empire.) I wonder too if we're supposed to be imagining much longer journeys between the clans. That's another way to see the empire as more vast than what we experienced in SR1----if Raz's longer journeys were shortened in gameplay for everyone's convenience.

Re: cities --> mini kingdoms --> nation --> continent --> world dominance.
You know how Italy used to be many separate little independent kingdoms and cities and then only after much effort (fighting) it got united into a single country? (Surprisingly recent in history, too). Something like that is going on in Nosgoth probably. So in the older days, when they say Nosgoth, that'd mean "This small patch of land which is all we've ever known of the world." Then, when the land gets more united and Meridian emerges as the capital of a Nosgoth nation, Nosgoth would mean "This is the name we've always called our lands, so now it's the name of our country." Then, when Kain is running his empire, he might say Nosgoth to mean "This empire region is the only place that matters, so we're going to use our own name as the name of the planet, and we're going to impose our terminology on any other kingdoms we trade with, just to let them know who's in charge." (So the name "Nosgoth" would become universal). So, in a way, Nosgoth has always been the name for the planet, even as these people's knowledge of the planet expanded.

[Linikratyo]

Originally Posted by Paradoks

A little off-topic but no, it didn't exist in medieval times (or should I say it was very unpopular to be precise). A very popular misconception.

is that true can you maybe give a source of this?

[Paradoks]

Originally Posted by Linikratyo

is that true can you maybe give a source of this?

I thought that I will have some writing to do, but fortunately there already is an article about it on Wikipedia.

[Strands Of Night]

I'll try to be brief. My vote is that Nosgoth is the world.

If Nosgoth were a country, then there would only be one king. Ottmar and Willam the Just (aka The Nemisis) are both kings of their own countries. Civil war is never stated or inferred in their battle in BO1, leading me to the conclusion that they are both independant countries.

Nosgoth (the world) may not be fully explored. We do trek back and forth across the same landmarks game after game, we know it, but it's always new. If anoyone has read any of the DragonLance series, the continent you read about is always Ansalon, with a distant continent, Taladas, rarely mentioned, and almost never written about. Nosgoth, like Krynn, has a diverse enough population, geography, and history to continue to keep the story fresh, while still feeling familiar, no matter how many times you visit the Pillars. (For something like 25 years in Krynn's case.)

[TheSquid]

If Nosgoth were a country, then there would only be one king.

Yep.

It looks like a Germanic land with several kingdoms but all of them having the same culture. So in their culture, the planet is called Nosgoth. If you asked one of those traveling gypsies from another land what her word was for the planet, you might get a different answer (such as Lunesta). If there are other cultures out beyond what we've explored. But since we're focussed on the Pillar region, we use their name for Nosgoth. The Ancients used that name too so the word comes from them and filtered down to the humans.

Hmmmmm. Also, Meridian is clearly being influenced by French culture. Are ships from another land are showing up at Meridian's ports and giving that city a more worldly feel due to cultural exchange? (This is reminding me of that History Channel show with the big frizzy haired "expert" on space aliens. He's always asking things like "Did we really come up with velcro ourselves, or was it THEM????") (Oh No! There were space aliens in Meridian affecting the culture there: The Hylden race!!!!! The hylden are French! It's more French-bashing, built right in to a vampire video game.)

[Ber]

Originally Posted by TheSquid

Hmmmmm. Also, Meridian is clearly being influenced by French culture. Are ships from another land are showing up at Meridian's ports and giving that city a more worldly feel due to cultural exchange? (This is reminding me of that History Channel show with the big frizzy haired "expert" on space aliens. He's always asking things like "Did we really come up with velcro ourselves, or was it THEM????") (Oh No! There were space aliens in Meridian affecting the culture there: The Hylden race!!!!! The hylden are French! It's more French-bashing, built right in to a vampire video game.)

This is exactly what I was thinking about... it seems that most of the towns in Blood Omen had German names, they didn't mean particularly anything but for some reason Meridian and Freeport don't follow this line which makes me think that they were either colony cities or there was a massive cultural exchange going on there.

There's a lot to think about and I need to read all the posts properly, but you guys had great thoughts about this!

Oh, and about the hylden being french:

[The Hylden]

Originally Posted by Corlagon

1) we have up to three sapient species in this place who can fly wherever they like (ancients, vampires with bat flight, and Razielim)

Four, if the Hylden can fly. We do see them in mid-air combat with the Ancients in a few of the murals.

Thanks for the Chris Bruno quote I remember that one.

Originally Posted by TheSquid

Re: Distance---- Isn't it weird that the clans scattered to the four corners of nosgoth can be visited quickly on foot like a bunch of suburbs bunched together?

Back in BO1, it takes Kain days (in Nosgoth time) to travel over the land. SR1 simply didn't have the processor power to render something anywhere near that large. PS2 didn't, either, and we were truncated to a smaller portion back and forth within the land in SR2. Both BO2 and Defiance allow for a larger word in the mind, as each area is bridged by loading to another, so any amount of time could have been spent for Raziel and Kain getting between areas. Most of the areas, however, are within viewing distance in Defiance, so they should be a few days journey, at most, by foot.

Originally Posted by Paradoks

A little off-topic but no, it didn't exist in medieval times (or should I say it was very unpopular to be precise). A very popular misconception.

Indeed. One of the worst misconceptions that's come about, unfortunately. Columbus always thought he was going to reach the other side of the world and so did those he got backing from. He thought he was going to land somewhere in the West Indies. He just didn't count on that giant other continent in the way, heh.

Originally Posted by TheSquid

Also, Meridian is clearly being influenced by French culture. Are ships from another land are showing up at Meridian's ports and giving that city a more worldly feel due to cultural exchange? (This is reminding me of that History Channel show with the big frizzy haired "expert" on space aliens. He's always asking things like "Did we really come up with velcro ourselves, or was it THEM????") (Oh No! There were space aliens in Meridian affecting the culture there: The Hylden race!!!!! The hylden are French! It's more French-bashing, built right in to a vampire video game.)

God, that show is a travesty. I had the misfortune of catching it where they were tying the Vikings to aliens. The "expert" (guy with the whacky hair) had the nerve to say that the landmarks left by the Vikings throughout Europe were proof that the Vikings ... could fly! He said that they were a seafaring culture, so the only way that they could have gotten that far inland was to have flown

In case it needs breaking down, the fact that the Vikings could travel by boat somehow negates the use of their legs to walk anyplace, apparently... He somehow missed the fact that the Vikings built boats to travel by sea ... so that they could conquer other lands. They didn't live out at Sea like mermen, or something.

That's just one in a host of crazy, unfounded claims that come about on that show. You have to weep for those who are glued to TV in the past couple of decades. It's certainly gone way, way down in quality.


Anyway, but maybe you're on to something with this. Using the Ancient Aliens logic, the evidence of a hologram that looks like the Death Star and what looks to be a tie fighter ... must mean that Nosgoth is but one planet in the Star Wars Galaxy of long, long ago, far, far away. In fact, now it makes sense! This is where Lucas found inspiration for Star Wars. It was actually Nosgoth. The vampires were made into Jedi; the Hylden were the Sith; Moebius was turned into the Emperor; the Elder in the Abyss was the Sarlacc Pit and Jar Jar Binks was born out of those crazy frogs in SR2 that hop around like mad in cutscenes, trying to steal the limelight!

Why didn't I see it before now?!

Edit: yes, that's the guy! Whacky-do man.

Oh, and Ber please take out the thumb code signature pic you have and resize it. Sorry, but we do have to maintain that limit to the size constraints for signature pics. Thanks

[Ber]

Done the Hylden!!!! (sorry for the hussle )

About Nosgoth's distances feeling reduced in SR... I also believe this was made with playability purposes, otherwise Nosgoth would have been just as a small neighbourhood... I like to imagine Nosgoth to be roughly the size of Europe or the US... but that's only a rough idea.

[The Hylden]

No problem And agreed on the rough size of what we've seen.

[Mr.Milky]

Originally Posted by Ber

- In the time of Blood Omen (based in medieval times - sort of) Nosgoth could have been believed as the entire world for its population - under the concept of "Earth is flat" that existed in medieval times.

- I believe that this concept changed with the years, obviously Nosgoth's human population eventually technologically progressed to the point of reaching a "industrial revolution" stage by the time Blood Omen 2 takes place. Under this scheme and based in what we have seen in BO2 I think the actual knowledge of the land Nosgoth might have expanded

This is what I essentially will never understand - why is it imperative that a fantasy based game dwells upon the actual historical (chronological) factor of "human technological progress".
Also, Bo2 is based upon the concept of 200 years without Kain. 200 years is quite enough for humans to build under the rule of Hylden.
Also, we know where the humans end.

---

Also



MADE MY DAY!

[Ber]

Originally Posted by Mr.Milky

This is what I essentially will never understand - why is it imperative that a fantasy based game dwells upon the actual historical (chronological) factor of "human technological progress".
Also, Bo2 is based upon the concept of 200 years without Kain. 200 years is quite enough for humans to build under the rule of Hylden.
Also, we know where the humans end.

Yeah, I just suppose that they wanted to show us how humanity would have changed with time... I think no matter how much it progresses it will always have a reminiscence of the Middle Ages as this is what gives an identity to the series. However Nosgoth changes drastically in every era and humans with it... they acquire more technology with years... after all it's in their nature - humans went from using swords and axes during the Sarafan and Vampire hunting crusades to the use of Glyph Energy fuelled cars and factories in BO2 to the use of flame-throwers by the time of SR1 (I think we can even see a Musket in Moebius's museum)

I think that humanity was affected by the various changes that affected Nosgoth such as the Hylden Lord arrival caused by the paradox in Defiance; this gave the humans enough time to progress as Kain's armies were defeated whilst they didn't have the opportunity to do so before the paradoxes caused in SR2 and Defiance. Obviously their progress suffered some sort of regression again once Kain defeated the Hylden Lord and reconquered Nosgoth.

It's actually very interesting to think about those small details!

PS. The Hylden, is there a way to correct the title of the topic? I noticed I wrote "Empreror" instead of Emperor... my bad, tried to correct it with no success :/

Regards.

[Paradoks]

I think that the political system was always an afterthought in the series and that's why it's so inconsistent.
In BO1 we see independent kingdoms, but then we had Otmar yelling "for Nosgoth" instead of "for Willendorf". I imagine that on on the other side of the battlefield the Nemesis could be yelling the same thing .
In SR1 Raziel refers to Kain's domain as empire, but at the same time titles Kain as king. Make up your mind Raziel - either it's king and kingdom or emperor and empire.
And finally we have BO2 and "the capital of Nosgoth" that makes no sense in the light of BO1, unless all kingdoms united in the face of Kain's conquest. But an aristocrat in Upper City says that "there was a time when the great noble families ruled the land, with a king over all".
On top of that among all germanic names we see in BO1, BO2 comes in and introduces Freeport, a city with a painfully generic non-germanic name. They could at least name it Freihafen or something.

[The Hylden]

Originally Posted by Ber

PS. The Hylden, is there a way to correct the title of the topic? I noticed I wrote "Empreror" instead of Emperor... my bad, tried to correct it with no success :/

Regards.

Done. Don't worry; the setup just won't let you edit it on your end.

[Ber]

Originally Posted by Paradoks

I think that the political system was always an afterthought in the series and that's why it's so inconsistent.
In BO1 we see independent kingdoms, but then we had Otmar yelling "for Nosgoth" instead of "for Willendorf". I imagine that on on the other side of the battlefield the Nemesis could be yelling the same thing .
In SR1 Raziel refers to Kain's domain as empire, but at the same time titles Kain as king. Make up your mind Raziel - either it's king and kingdom or emperor and empire.
And finally we have BO2 and "the capital of Nosgoth" that makes no sense in the light of BO1, unless all kingdoms united in the face of Kain's conquest. But an aristocrat in Upper City says that "there was a time when the great noble families ruled the land, with a king over all".
On top of that among all germanic names we see in BO1, BO2 comes in and introduces Freeport, a city with a painfully generic non-germanic name. They could at least name it Freihafen or something.

I think that the Nemesis was about to invade Willendorf but (this is just my point of view) to start this massive strike over Nosgoth he had to overtake Willendorf which at it's time was The Army of the Last Hope... I imagine the biggest army in Nosgoth after the Nemesis of course (in fact much smaller as stated by Kain in BO1) and somehow Ottmar felt that by defending his Kingdom he was also defending Nosgoth that was going to fall under the Nemesis grip - that could explain the "For Nosgoth!" war cry.

Well, I believe that Kain himself was an emperor (makes it more wicked IMO :P), but they refer to him as a king in the games in some sort of metaphoric or even in a mocking way...

About Meridian being the capital of Nosgoth... I support what you have said, it could be that under Kain's threat, all the Kingdoms in Nosgoth united to protect themselves against them, having a "King" to guide them all, and eventually this king was replaced by the Sarafan Lord... how and when? But somehow he managed to make the Sarafan rule spread all over Nosgoth (Again I'd imagine it to be like the Nazis spread all over Europe).

Yeah also Meridian is a non-german name such as Freeport, which as I already mentioned could be because they were some sort of colonial cities, where there was a huge cultural exchange (there are also french signs in Meridian).

Maybe all of this came to happen by chance, but it's nice to discuss it and somehow expand the Nosgothic mythology; great discussion guys! We just use our imagination



Thanks the Hylden

[The Hylden]

You're welcome

Yeah, there's nothing so original as naming your capital after a dividing line, lol

[TheSquid]

The aristocrat was upset because before HL came along and changed things the nobles used to have access to the king and could curry favor like special interest groups do today. They were like insiders. HL wouldn't want to have to deal with these guys constantly buzzing in his ear, asking awkward questions and causing trouble for the hylden. So HL had made the noble families impotent by cutting off their direct access to his base of power at Miridian. He was keeping the Sarafan regime more insulated (secretive) so these nobles no longer had a say in how things were done. So the aristocrat was feeling pushed aside, because the normal human way of doing things had been pushed aside. There were powerful humans ready to join Kain's revolt, potentially. (But I think the sarafan were also pushing borders aside to unite nosgoth more than before under one banner. So the one king that the aristocrat speaks of was probably just the one regional king, whereas the HL was becoming a continental power. So in a way, the Sarafan probably did some of emperor Kain's work for him. The land was already uniting.)

THe name Freeport is extra bad if you already live next to a real town called Freeport, because my Freeport is a dump that no one really wants to explore. But if you want to excuse the series for using these BO2 names, just blame it on how conquerors change the map to reflect their own language and culture. Like after the 1066 Battle of..... (Hastings?) the English were forced to adopt lots of French words. Maybe before the Neo Sarafan movement, "Freeport" HAD been named Freihafen.

[ReaverofCupcakes]

I was pretty late in posting this, so forgive me if this seems an old argument or that I reiterate some of what Ber has already said.

In my personal opinion, I think of Nosgoth as more of a region; far removed and isolated from the rest of the world. To help show you guys what I'm talking about, I'm going to provide a few maps for you all to look at. This first map is a printed map that was distributed with the PC version of BO1:


(click image to enlarge)

Looking at this map, you can clearly see the ring of mountains surrounding the entirety of Nosgoth-at least this portion of it; a kind of cocoon to not only prevent anyone from coming in but prevent anyone from leaving either. Although for the Ancients or a vampire with bat-flight this probably wouldn't be much of a barrier, but I'll touch on that later. Back to the map, you have to wonder what's on the other side of those mountains. Is it empty space? It can't be, right? The only other logical explanation is that beyond those mountains lies a much larger continent that no-one has ever ventured far enough inland to know for sure. And why would they?

Nosgoth-up to the point of the Pillar's corruption and eventual fall, was for the lack of a better description a vibrant and fertile area. The peoples living there would have little to no desire or reason to explore further than that. It's even entirely possible that the Ancients, or the humans, or the Hylden could have migrated to Nosgoth from another, less fertile part of the world.

This brings me to my second map, a BO2 Nosgoth map that was pieced together using screenshots from the PC version of the game:


(click image to enlarge)

Inconsistencies notwithstanding, I think this map gives a very intriguing view of Nosgoth as a whole. Instead of being completely cut-off from the rest of the world, Nosgoth is portrayed here as a thriving and dynamic place, complete with ports and these massive cities a la Middle Earth or Kingdoms of Amalur(if anyone's played that game.)

Here's a map of Middle Earth incase anyone wanted to make a comparison or not:


(click image to enlarge)

Much like Nosgoth, Middle Earth is this sprawling region complete with various kingdoms, several races of peoples, and one super evil warlord who is trying to take it all over. But more than that, Middle Earth appears to have more to it that this one region. And while we're talking about the world as a whole, you have to ask yourself what exactly is the world?

Not by the basest definition of the word; such as the planet Earth or something like that, but one's world. One's region or place where they experience or live out most of what life has to offer them. I'm sure all of you have a region where you live, go to work, relax and hang out with people you know or don't know. And for you, that is your world. That is what you know. The point I'm making here is that for the people in Nosgoth, that particular region is their home; their world. Anything beyond that, they would have no knowledge of or have any real care to know. But does that mean that there isn't something more? I think not.

1,000 years ago, in Roman times, many people in Italy and other surrounding parts of continental Europe, considered the island of Britain as the edge of the world, populated by savage monsters and other otherworldly beings. We all know that isn't true, but a lot of people back then believed that. Same goes for many other ancient civilizations. They had their empires or their lands-a.k.a. their world-and everything beyond that was filled with demons or any number of things. That perception changed slightly in the 15th century, but there was still much fear and dogma around what beyond the "world" at that time. As Ber said before, the famous theory that the Earth was flat, seriously concerned people and they thought that if anyone sailed out of Europe they would just fall off the edge of the Earth. Christopher Columbus proved that theory wrong of course and paved the way for the Age of Exploration.

Basically what I'm saying is that we have Nosgoth, a relatively isolated area(albeit with access to a large ocean) and then we have its people operating on a Medieval mindset, who out of fear or lack of desire, have not explored past what they know as their home and world. Considering also the possibility that the Ancients or/and the Hylden may have migrated to Nosgoth from some other place, the Ancients/Hylden, once in Nosgoth, would have no desire to continue past the natural boundaries of the land and instead build up their civilizations within it. And for the Ancients at least, I'm sure that when the EG hooked his tentacles into them, they definitively would have no reason to leave Nosgoth and abandon their god.

Speaking of the EG, he may have resided in Nosgoth long before the Ancients started worshiping him, only growing fat on the carnage of the Ancient/Hylden war and all the conflict after that. Which in turn might have contributed to the rapid decay of Nosgoth after the Pillars fell. In fact, as we all know, the Pillars pierced the sky and the earth seemingly without end, giving a real possibility that not only is Nosgoth is affected by the Pillars, but the entire planet as well. Putting that possibility together with the EG's dialogue in SR1, he literally could be talking about the entire planet being in jeopardy rather than just Nosgoth. He could have also equated Nosgoth to the world to put an urgent spin on things for Raziel's sake, as Nosgoth is his world. If not the EG's.

Whew! That was a lot of typing! Hopefully I didn't lose too many of you with this wall of text, but I think I just about covered everything I wanted to cover. Cheers to everyone who got this far, and a big shout out to The Hylden for all his help.

[TheSquid]

Pillars pierced sky and the earth seemingly without end, giving a real possibility that not only is Nosgoth is affected by the Pillars, but the entire planet as well. EG in SR1 could literally be talking about the entire planet being in jeopardy rather than just Nosgoth. He could have also equated Nosgoth to the world for Raziel's sake, as Nosgoth is his world. If not the EG's.

Yeah. It's the name of the land but is also used to refer to everything. Because that land is all that's known to its inhabitants, so it might as well be the name of the planet too for all they care. A later Magellan explorer may prove to everyone that they need to revisit the naming of things to add separate names for country vs. planet. But right now it's all good just saying Nosgoth. And Kain's empire, if it did go worldwide, would have enforced the name everywhere, so that country-to-planet name change would have taken care of itself under his..... tutelage.

Pillars are like a big staple, too. Good call. Piercing through to the great beyond the way staples join page to page.

[The Hylden]

Glad you got it working, RoC I also love that BO2's Nosgoth map and Middle Earth's are way, way similar, with the way the southern portion of the continent juts in like that, almost like a gulf. Makes me think the BO2 team might have used that for inspiration.