The Official Conversation Thread

[Drazar]

I'm talking about characters like Azrael, Huntress, Damian and well Grant Morrison did plan to redeem Red Hood before the relaunch happened, however we still don't know the identity of Wingman, so who knows?

I'm not talking about Batman forgiving Joker the gazillionth time, i'm talking about Batman training and mentoring once-crooks or anti-heroes into the force of good, if Batman can do this, why can Superman only go "might makes right!" argument, beat up the bad guys and toss them to jail with his "i'm stronger then you, so i'm right" attitude.





EDIT: It really just boils down to me not accepting Superman's might makes right argument, i just see him as this big bully who beats up people to show he's right somehow.

Smallville season 11 will feature the Dark Knight, alongside his female sidekick Nightwing: Stephanie Brown.

(click image to enlarge)

Amazing Spider-Man game looks promising, but i still wish Activision could give Beenox more time, because at the end of the day how truly long is this game? How repetive could it also be with it's side missions?

[Old_BenKenobi]

Originally Posted by Drazar

I'm talking about characters like Azrael, Huntress, Damian and well Grant Morrison did plan to redeem Red Hood before the relaunch happened, however we still don't know the identity of Wingman, so who knows?

I'm not talking about Batman forgiving Joker the gazillionth time, i'm talking about Batman training and mentoring once-crooks or anti-heroes into the force of good, if Batman can do this, why can Superman only go "might makes right!" argument, beat up the bad guys and toss them to jail with his "i'm stronger then you, so i'm right" attitude.





EDIT: It really just boils down to me not accepting Superman's might makes right argument, i just see him as this big bully who beats up people to show he's right somehow.

The Elite's function in the story is to be an antagonist where classic Superman optimism just won't work. They were never going to agree with Superman on this issue and instead were going to keep killing who they wanted to kill. If Superman stepped in, as he eventually did, their response was to kill him too. Superman's position in the movie isn't "might makes right," if it was then Superman has always been about "might makes right" when facing a villain. Punching a villain in the face is using his physical superiority to enforce both the law and his own ethics, which he believes to be the morals of society (even though morals can shift through society and ethics are personal beliefs). Stripping "might makes right" from Superman turns him into the posturing ineffectual pseudo-Jesus pansy punching bag that Grant Morrison hates so much.

The question of the story is how can two strongly and unbudging opposing sides come to a mutually beneficial agreement without crossing their own beliefs? The Elite strongly believe that legitimately dangerous people should be killed, while Superman believes that killing is never the answer. Superman tries to compromise by offering guidance, while the Elite try to compromise by offering Superman dibs on the non-violent stuff while they handle the important matters. Both of these ideas are shot down by the opposing party. So how should Superman have handled it? How could Superman win without getting his hands dirty? The longer he sat around waiting for them to agree with him the more people they killed (and the more public opinion turned against Superman) which ties into the idea of his gentle approach indirectly causing more carnage.

In the end he not only found a solution that worked (the Elite are still alive but are incarcerated and no longer have powers) but one that showed that he actually learned something from the experience. He realized that he was indirectly responsible for many deaths and took care of that problem his own way, a way that respected the sanctity of life while still keeping these people from harming innocent lives. He found the answer and because we see how strong willed Superman is when it comes to maintaining his ethics there isn't risk of him sliding down the slippery slope and eventually enslaving humanity (which was a big risk with The Elite).

The movie also makes a point of actually questioning whether or not Superman and his policies are right in the first place. When all of society and even your wife are saying there are people out there who should be killed, is Superman still in the right? When his personal ethics are against the belief of society as a whole does he still have an argument or is he the fascist forcing his opinions on others?

I think the fact that we can derive an ethical debate this valid from the movie indicates it merits at least a watch. Besides, you gotta keep supporting Bruce Timm and crew, right?

[Batman The Trailer Hunter]

[JackWinz]

Oh man, this film is going to kill..

Wait.. is Bane about to rip that dudes face off?

[batfan08]

I just watched Superman Vs. The Elite and I absolutely loved it. It is very relevant to today's world because it seems like the criminals are getting worse and worse, and the "good guys" are still restricted by the law and morality, ethics, etc. In today's world, it seems like the Elite would be more efficient.

Then, I see Superman. I adore Batman, but sometimes I think that Superman is my favorite hero, and it's because of the world we live in. Superman is idealism, he is optimism, and he is the physical embodiment of the hope for a brighter tomorrow. That's why I love Superman; that's why I love comic books. I love them because they provide me with a brief vacation from this ____ty planet we live on. Comic books provide me with a world where some psycho didn't kill his little baby, but where Superman or Batman stopped it from ever happening. This film embodies the idea of "escapism vs. reality" to me with those two being represented by "Superman vs. The Elite," respectively.

On a side note, I purchased my ticket for The Dark Knight Trilogy at my local theater, and I'll be taking a road trip to Pittsburgh the week after to see The Dark Knight Rises on a 15/70 IMAX screen. Also, has anyone read Batman #10!?! Dear Lord have mercy, that was a very big revelation.

[mwkcope]

Originally Posted by JackWinz

Oh man, this film is going to kill..

Wait.. is Bane about to rip that dudes face off?

Looked like he was about to snap his neck to me.

[Batman The Trailer Hunter]

NECKS WILL BE BROKEN

[JackWinz]

TROUSERS WlLL BE SOILED.

[Drazar]

Originally Posted by Old_BenKenobi

Stripping "might makes right" from Superman turns him into the posturing ineffectual pseudo-Jesus pansy punching bag that Grant Morrison hates so much.

Oh i'm not asking for a punching bag, i'm asking for a leader.

The question of the story is how can two strongly and unbudging opposing sides come to a mutually beneficial agreement without crossing their own beliefs? The Elite strongly believe that legitimately dangerous people should be killed, while Superman believes that killing is never the answer.

And the story resolves in Superman removing the powers of anti-heroes and telling them they're wrong, here's a question to ponder: Why doesn't Superman do this to all power based villains and anti-heroes? How will that resolve all the problems? Just taking away Sinestro's ring for good and whatnot, but also what about the villains and anti-heroes who are biologically empowered? Like a White Martian or heck, another Kryptonian. What happens if Supergirl goes anti-hero?

Is Superman's answer taking away powers or the Phantom Zone? Is that his utopia? Is that our hero?

The movie also makes a point of actually questioning whether or not Superman and his policies are right in the first place. When all of society and even your wife are saying there are people out there who should be killed, is Superman still in the right? When his personal ethics are against the belief of society as a whole does he still have an argument or is he the fascist forcing his opinions on others?

Well thats why there is the legal system, i mean let's pretend for a moment that Arkham Asylum works, and villains like Lex Luthor actually do get death sentenced.

I think the fact that we can derive an ethical debate this valid from the movie indicates it merits at least a watch. Besides, you gotta keep supporting Bruce Timm and crew, right?

This & Shazam are the only movies i haven't purchased. Superman because of my stubborness, Shazam because i don't think it's worth the money due to the little amount of new footage for a viewer sucha s myself.

The latest tv spot for TDK Rises is really cool.

[Batman The Trailer Hunter]

I think Superman is slowly realizing that Not every one is good inside. He went from, "I believe there is good in everyone" and half way through "Ok i admit somepeople are bad" and by the end "there is evil out there but i will still give evil a chance to change"

I can see this version of Superman realizing that the punishment NEEDS to fit the crime, but he is scared or unwilling to take the proper steps to punish people. Superman is more or less a god-figure, He doesnt want to hurt you but he wont let you hurt others, and by the end of the film he realizes that Justice requires punishment, and sometimes grace/mercy will not work.


I mean with the atomic dude Superman tried to give him a good thing to do (using his power to fuel the city instead of killing) But after he got out again, im sure he would have drained all of his power and left the man in a jail where he was completely powerless

[batfan08]

Has anyone read Batman: Death by Design? If not, please do so; it's phenomenal.

[Old_BenKenobi]

Originally Posted by Drazar

Oh i'm not asking for a punching bag, i'm asking for a leader.

He tried that. Like I said, didn't work. You can't lead the unleadable.

And the story resolves in Superman removing the powers of anti-heroes and telling them they're wrong, here's a question to ponder: Why doesn't Superman do this to all power based villains and anti-heroes? How will that resolve all the problems? Just taking away Sinestro's ring for good and whatnot, but also what about the villains and anti-heroes who are biologically empowered? Like a White Martian or heck, another Kryptonian. What happens if Supergirl goes anti-hero?

Is Superman's answer taking away powers or the Phantom Zone? Is that his utopia? Is that our hero?

Thats exactly what he should do. Sure in some cases its not possible (like when their powers are due to their species) but in most cases it works. Its the same thing as Batman breaking the Joker's neck at the end of TDKR.

Well thats why there is the legal system, i mean let's pretend for a moment that Arkham Asylum works, and villains like Lex Luthor actually do get death sentenced.

If they did the world would be a better place. But they don't and society wants executions for all anyway.

[batfan08]

Actually, he can remove the powers of a species in some cases. Anyone remember yellow(gold?) Kryptonite? It causes Kryptonians to lose their powers forever.

[Drazar]

Originally Posted by batfan08

Has anyone read Batman: Death by Design? If not, please do so; it's phenomenal.

What is it about?

Originally Posted by Old_BenKenobi

He tried that. Like I said, didn't work. You can't lead the unleadable.

I just can't see Superman giving up like that. I mean, continuity wise he'd just give up on even more anti-heroes and villains and just permamently take their powers. This movie is like a chapter on Superman's life that won't ever get explored.

Thats exactly what he should do. Sure in some cases its not possible (like when their powers are due to their species) but in most cases it works. Its the same thing as Batman breaking the Joker's neck at the end of TDKR.

Well yeah, Miller's Batman comes to the revelation that killing is all good and thus the next generation of heroes are all fascist anti-heroes, but that was Miller's argument always with Batman.



Anyhow you guys are really starting to convince me, and i've read some reviews and apparently the Elite are "newbie" heroes and Superman does act abit father figurish to them? Not to mention this debate with you Old Ben has me asking, how does the movie end? Does it end with the preachy argument Superman represents and cuts to black? Since we can talk about the arguments the movie represents, does the movie still at the end show that Superman's way is the only way to go or something?

Originally Posted by batfan08

Actually, he can remove the powers of a species in some cases. Anyone remember yellow(gold?) Kryptonite? It causes Kryptonians to lose their powers forever.

Oh yeah Smallville did that golden ring thing, Mark Waid tweeted how he would give years of his life just to have thought of that idea 1st.

[Old_BenKenobi]

Well like I said, if Superman didn't give up then they wouldn't have stopped. Eventually he has to take some form of action beyond trying to talk them out of something, he can't just stand around and do nothing. But now we're going around in circles.

And yeah, The Elite are newbs. Its actually very well handled. Their introduction is basically them and Superman teaming up to fight and giant monsters and afterwards Supes is like "Thanks for helping out, but just watch for collatoral damage next time" and all of them are looking at him like "... Holy crap, Superman is talking to us." They're all such big Superman fans that they're actually starstruck by him, which makes their conflict sting. You can tell both parties really want the other side to agree with them but both are stubborn as mules.

As for the ending, its pretty pro-Superman. In the end the people of Metropolis, who had turned against Superman in favour of the Elite, are so horrified by the sight of Superman going grimdark that they beg him not to kill Manchester. Superman says that its easy to give in to anger and simply kill people. He also says that if nobody believes in humanity ever getting better than it is then humanity never will get better and he'll never stop trying to make it better. Basically hes saying that if you go the more difficult path and refuse to pander to emotions and instead choose to believe in fixing humanity's mistakes instead of killing them the result will be a better world.

But at the same thing, the movie doesn't throw itself entirely into that ideal. It shows how the Elite's approach can save lives and it never outright says killing a really really bad guy is wrong an it shows Superman himself having to compromise himself a bit. So in the end Superman comes off as a little cheesy in his stance and its easy to see the holes in his logic. In other words, same old Superman. But I guess you could say the entire moral of the story is in the long run its better to have faith in a flawed but optimistic ideal than it is to be purely pragmatic.

As for Miller, we both know I was referring to his pre-crazy phase, the one where Batman was sorely tempted to kill Joker and end it but instead chose to stick to his longstanding code and simply paralyze him.

[batfan08]

Death by Design is very interesting, it basically centers around Bruce Wayne's decision to destroy the derelict Wayne Central Station and the series of mishaps that ensues during the process of demolition. Random construction accidents start to show a pattern, and how Batman starts to deal with the people behind these "accidents." The story's really not even the main draw, but it's the gorgeous artwork by Dave Taylor (World's Finest) that really sets it apart. It's got a very classic art decomotiff, not unlike The Animated Series. Just check it out, you won't be disappointed. Have you read Batman #10, Draz?

Also, I thought that the yellow Kryptonite was around long before Smallville? Huh.

[Batman The Trailer Hunter]

[Old_BenKenobi]

Paolo Rivera is leaving Daredevil.

[Drazar]

Originally Posted by Old_BenKenobi

As for the ending, its pretty pro-Superman. In the end the people of Metropolis, who had turned against Superman in favour of the Elite, are so horrified by the sight of Superman going grimdark that they beg him not to kill Manchester. Superman says that its easy to give in to anger and simply kill people. He also says that if nobody believes in humanity ever getting better than it is then humanity never will get better and he'll never stop trying to make it better. Basically hes saying that if you go the more difficult path and refuse to pander to emotions and instead choose to believe in fixing humanity's mistakes instead of killing them the result will be a better world.

Yeah allright.

But at the same thing, the movie doesn't throw itself entirely into that ideal. It shows how the Elite's approach can save lives and it never outright says killing a really really bad guy is wrong an it shows Superman himself having to compromise himself a bit. So in the end Superman comes off as a little cheesy in his stance and its easy to see the holes in his logic. In other words, same old Superman. But I guess you could say the entire moral of the story is in the long run its better to have faith in a flawed but optimistic ideal than it is to be purely pragmatic.

It's still something to ponder, would this Superman continue to take away powers more and more? What happens when he's cleaned off all super villains powers that is possible?

Originally Posted by Old_BenKenobi

As for Miller, we both know I was referring to his pre-crazy phase, the one where Batman was sorely tempted to kill Joker and end it but instead chose to stick to his longstanding code and simply paralyze him.

Oh shush you, but my point still stands how Batman always saw heroes as fascists trying to save the world thru their vigilantism:

(click image to enlarge)

Originally Posted by batfan08

Death by Design is very interesting, it basically centers around Bruce Wayne's decision to destroy the derelict Wayne Central Station and the series of mishaps that ensues during the process of demolition. Random construction accidents start to show a pattern, and how Batman starts to deal with the people behind these "accidents." The story's really not even the main draw, but it's the gorgeous artwork by Dave Taylor (World's Finest) that really sets it apart. It's got a very classic art decomotiff, not unlike The Animated Series. Just check it out, you won't be disappointed. Have you read Batman #10, Draz?

Yeah i read #10, so much hissy fitting about it. I'll wait for my judgement completely with #11, since it's possible Owlman is just another looney tunes, not who he claims to be. I'l maybe check Death by Design sooner or later.

Originally Posted by batfan08

Also, I thought that the yellow Kryptonite was around long before Smallville? Huh.

Yeah, but thats the only instance i can remember anything about Gold Kryptonite. Mark Waid's tweet.

Originally Posted by Batman The Trailer Hunter

I really like this TV spot!

Originally Posted by Old_BenKenobi

Paolo Rivera is leaving Daredevil.

Yeah, i wonder what his next project is.

I really like how this trailer focuses on the big villain Bane:

[Old_BenKenobi]

Originally Posted by Drazar

Oh shush you, but my point still stands how Batman always saw heroes as fascists trying to save the world thru their vigilantism:

(click image to enlarge)

I love how Batman was the "bad boy" of superheroes and the one who pissed off the parent groups.

And yeah he saw it that way, but it wasn't until he/Miller went crazy in TDKSA that he actually started killing people. And its not like he was wrong, just very cynical. He and his superhero buddies are outlaws and they have to be because if the system as it stood worked the world wouldn't need superheroes in the first place. Then you have Superman, who is a pawn of the US government and fights its wars and such, essentially becoming a symbol of facism and justifying Batman's cynical worldview.

[Batman The Trailer Hunter]

Zimmer is a music mastermind

[Old_BenKenobi]

Started reading the Batman Chronciles (Golden Age appearances of Batman). Batman is a badass in these lol. I see a lot of what ended up in Frank Miller's Batman here, except with less "I'M NUTS!" and more "I'm a cold calculating psycho who will ing kill you!"

[Drazar]

Zimmer's music however has gotten very "same ol'" almost, but i do like the chanting, but honestly? Compare Inception, Batmans, Sherlock Holmes and so forward and they could all exist in the same universe if you catch my draft.

Glad to hear you're liking the golden age stuff, did you purchase a softcover? I ebt the hardcovers are impossible to come by now.

So both Amazing Spider-Man the movie and game (game gets less praising) is getting good reception, but be warned! Just playing 20 minutes of the game spoils the movie's biggest conclusions apparently, but yeah it seems Beenox taking from Batman helped.



Looks like Raid: the Redemption, which is pretty cool if you ask me. Apparently the plot is from a 1979 story of Judge Dredd, cautiously optimistic about this.

PS. Soo.... Ben.... Renting Ghost Rider someday?

[Old_BenKenobi]

I bought the paperback because they're insanely affordable (10 bucks) and the hardcovers are split into two lines (one for Batman and one for Detective Comics).

And no, not renting Ghost Rider someday. Even that is paying too much for it. If I had Netflix and it was on Netflix then I might have watched it.

Got MMW Fantastic Four Vol 1. Read the first issue and its amazing how much stronger the storytelling and artwork is compared to the Batman stuff. Just crazy how big a leap there was in the 20 years in-between. I don't think the leap was that big between the early 60s and the early 80s but it was probably of a similar measure between the early 80s and the early 2000s.

[The Hylden]

I AM THE LAWAH!!