Turel

[Graz'zt]

I thought of something the other day. Turel goes back in time and becomes Hask 'Ak' Gik. Raziel finds him and kills the guy and eats his soul. The soul goes to the wheel, right? Does this mean it's possible that Turel could turn himself into a vampire? I say that because his soul would have been reborn several times by the time Turel is raised by Kain.

[The Hylden]

Turel's much, much older vampire soul is eaten by Raziel in the past. However, his younger human soul is still in limbo in Spectral, with the rest of the Lieutenants, including Raziel's, waiting for Kain to turn them into vampiric souls 500 years in the future from this point in time.

[Graz'zt]

I know that, but Raziel is clearly seen eating Turel's soul which would send it to the wheel. The wheel would cause him to be reborn as some guy, animal, or plant. Over generations and Turel dieing and going to the wheel, he would eventually have the chase to be turned by himself. Now do you understand what I mean? I'm talking about the Turel Raziel kills and devourers his soul, not the one he kills in the Saraphan Stronghold or the one Kain turns. That soul goes to the wheel, back in BO1's time. Turel becomes a vampire 500 yrs later, but his much older soul would have already been reborn several times by then.

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

Yeah, it would appear that by the time Soul Reaver takes place on this new timeline, there could be two people with the same soul.
By the way, has anyone else noticed the mistake they made with Turel being Hash'ak'gik in Defiance? I'm pretty sure I've pointed this out before, but they meant to have Hash'ak'gik's demand for blood sacrificies be explained with him being the Vampire Turel in Defiance (which I do think is a cool idea), but let's remember that when Kain read that passage in Blood Omen, this was back before all of the history changes. Also, the book mentions that Hash'ak'gik wanted blood sacrificies, and in Blood Omen, Kain can do exactly that at the Spirit Forges. Kain offers his blood to the "Wraiths and shades" for items, and if you look at all he evidence in the game, it's obvious that the Spirit Forges are actually connected to Hash'ak'gik.
Uh, I hope I didn't go too off topic with that.

[TheSquid]

I crashed twice while trying to figure out this business about Turel. Interesting. I'd assumed that when Hash was slain his soul (from the future) stayed dormant in the underworld until it got back to its own time period (SR1), which is when it'd be released to reincarnate again. Why do I assume that? Uhhhhhhhhh...... I don't know? Because Raziel was a special case who was allowed to break all the rules and double himself, but with good reason. Most souls wouldn't be allowed to have such a confusing path with double incarnations meeting each other because the Elder God wouldn't be getting anything out of it??

(Zulg--- What prevents Turel from being Hash in the original timeline????? I want to believe you, but it seems like Turel (and the hylden Hash cult) is supposed to be part of history even in Blood Omen.)



What's weird and perverse about Hash'ak'gik is that the book Kain finds in the library describes Hash worship as taking place in a past era, but then in Defiance we run into current Hash worship... and these games happen at the same time!

Eh, the official explanation is that there's only one Hash and Amy made her version fit as closely as she could with the Silicon Knights version but there were still some rough edges that didn't get smoothed out, like how the history book in the library references the past when Eidos chose to go with a present-day Hash. Now, with that out of the way.....

..... isn't there room for two Hashes, though, just like there were two Sarafan eras????? An earlier cult (non-hylden) who carved the altar, and then the hylden came along and breathed new life into the old cult by making its god appear. So Turel would be just a paid actor in this scenario, and not really Hash'ak'gik. He's dressed up to impersonate the earlier "real deal" Hash'ak'gik from more primitive times! This would be a best-of-both-worlds solution, because it'd include Amy's cool use of Turel but it'd also still leave us with Silicon Knights' original Hash'ak'gik entity too (who was less cheesy). So the Hash'ak'gik mythos could go back to inspiring nameless fear and awe again like It did in the first game!

Uh oh. If there were two Hash epochs, now I'm wondering if the hylden cult only happened in the new timeline. I want to say both cults always happened, even in the original timeline. The spirit forges would be proof of the hylden cult's presence in BO1???

meltdown!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Corlagon]

I see the point with the paradoxes, but I don't really think it's a flaw or a big mistake. Even if the future was completely and utterly different in that first timeline where we see the book and Turel never got resurrected or went back in time, he still makes perfect sense as a "stand-in" after the alterations, given the whole "least resistance" rules.

Regarding the past Hash'ak'gik worship, we're told only that there was a cult wandering around Nosgoth which worshipped a god and was subject to human possession. Even though Turel probably wasn't already in Nosgoth at that point, I think that can be reconciled well enough with current continuity. Maybe a few banished Hylden simply managed to possess some people now and then and passed off as a single vengeful god, The Exorcist-style, and thus frightened the surrounding gullibles into devoting their lives to them. When they got control of Azimuth, they just furthered this front by providing the "real" god.

If you look through the BO1 script on The Lost Worlds, there's also cut dialogue which brings up a coven of witches in the Termogent Forest who also independently worshipped Hash.

I can't rationalise what happens with Turel's time-travelling soul though, which is a very subtle and clever point. The easiest and laziest explanation I can think of is that his soul energy somehow automatically went to his own time in the future as far as the Wheel was concerned, so that messing with it could do no damage to history, just as we assume that Ariel in the Spirit Forge was summoned from the future after SR1.

[Count D]

Originally Posted by Graz'zt

I know that, but Raziel is clearly seen eating Turel's soul which would send it to the wheel. The wheel would cause him to be reborn as some guy, animal, or plant. Over generations and Turel dieing and going to the wheel, he would eventually have the chase to be turned by himself. Now do you understand what I mean? I'm talking about the Turel Raziel kills and devourers his soul, not the one he kills in the Saraphan Stronghold or the one Kain turns. That soul goes to the wheel, back in BO1's time. Turel becomes a vampire 500 yrs later, but his much older soul would have already been reborn several times by then.

Well, Raziel didn't actually eat souls of his brethren, as he did with his usual snacks - the souls themselves go to him and become absorbed into his own, so they didn't go back to the Wheel. So no, there was no endless cycle of reincarnation for him.

It was like this:
Turel dies as a Sarafan. His soul is untouched.
1000 years later he is resurrected by Kain as a vampire
Another 1000 years passes. Raziel's execution.
Some time after the execution (a lot of time, I presume, but before SR1) he is kidnapped by Azimuth. He spends a ton of time in the Avernus Cathedral, devolving.
During BO1 era he is killed by Raziel. His soul joins the souls of his brethren, including two souls of Raziel.
Raziel sacrifices himself. His soul (the Player!Raz) goes to the Reaver to form the Soul Reaver. His other soul (WraithBlade) and his brethren's souls become absorbed by Kain, thus restoring Kain's own soul.
No Wheel for any of them.

[The Hylden]

Originally Posted by Graz'zt

Over generations and Turel dieing and going to the wheel, he would eventually have the chase to be turned by himself. Now do you understand what I mean?

Not fully. When I was going to post before about this, I thought you were saying something totally different. Now that I think about it, though: you're saying he comes back has a 'chance' to turn himself? You mean his vampire self meets a reborn human him and might have the possibility to turn him into a vampire? One thing to remember about the Wheel, as we know it, anyway, is that the EG is in control of it, and therefore, in control of where and when he spits out a newborn soul. Also, that soul comes back totally devoid of its former self, both in memory, and as far as can be ascertained, it's former existence having any bearing on its new one. You can say there's the same possibility with Moebius out there. His soul could be born again multiple times over and turned into vampires each time. I do have to say, the thought of Moe, or Turel, as a tree, or bush, is pretty funny, but we don't see any evidence of plants having souls. Dogs are the only animal that have ever had one (I think). Maybe they can come back as a dogs .

Originally Posted by TheSquid

(Zulg--- What prevents Turel from being Hash in the original timeline????? I want to believe you, but it seems like Turel (and the hylden Hash cult) is supposed to be part of history even in Blood Omen.)

Good question. The Hylden probably pulled him back in all timelines, but even if they didn't, well, I'll get to that in a second...



[quote]What's weird and perverse about Hash'ak'gik is that the book Kain finds in the library describes Hash worship as taking place in a past era, but then in Defiance we run into current Hash worship... and these games happen at the same time! [quote]

That's not so much of an issue.

Eh, the official explanation is that there's only one Hash and Amy made her version fit as closely as she could with the Silicon Knights version but there were still some rough edges that didn't get smoothed out, like how the history book in the library references the past when Eidos chose to go with a present-day Hash. Now, with that out of the way.....

Actually, nothing in the interviews says that Turel's Hash is actual Hash, simply that he was called that. It's like someone now being called the antichrist. Is he the antichrist? Or is he just saying he is? People would say yes, while others would say no.

[QUOTE=Corlagon;1760833]Even if the future was completely and utterly different in that first timeline where we see the book and Turel never got resurrected or went back in time, he still makes perfect sense as a "stand-in" after the alterations, given the whole "least resistance" rules.[quote]

Indeed.

I can't rationalise what happens with Turel's time-travelling soul though, which is a very subtle and clever point. The easiest and laziest explanation I can think of is that his soul energy somehow automatically went to his own time in the future as far as the Wheel was concerned, so that messing with it could do no damage to history, just as we assume that Ariel in the Spirit Forge was summoned from the future after SR1.

Very good possible, there.

Originally Posted by Zulgbrtzchllha

Also, the book mentions that Hash'ak'gik wanted blood sacrificies, and in Blood Omen, Kain can do exactly that at the Spirit Forges. Kain offers his blood to the "Wraiths and shades" for items, and if you look at all he evidence in the game, it's obvious that the Spirit Forges are actually connected to Hash'ak'gik.

Yes, but here's the thing: all that we're told about Turel is that he was brought back through time and set in that pit, where he was worshiped as Hash. That doesn't mean that he is Hash, nor that there is not an actual one in Nosgoth. He's not, in fact. He didn't choose to be called Hash'ak'gik. If you think about it in our own world, that would be like some grotesque mutant from a dystopian future, perhaps, brought back through time to our present and set in some deranged undertaker's crypt, where the deranged undertaker would then gather to him a ton of satan worshipers in the area and say, "Hey, psst! You know, I've got the real life Satan in my crypt. I pray to him, offer virgin blood sacrifices, and he makes me immortal! He could do the same for you! Wanna come see Satan and prove your worth to him?" And that's how that cult would start. Whatever, or whomever the actual Hash is in Nosgoth, it's worshiped much in the same way, with the only presence of it ever heard is its voice from those Spirit Forges, possibly (nothing is saying that that voice is it, either, as it's never stated). Those statues are all different in each forge and so not exactly representative, either, just like we have gargoyles and statues depicted demons, and the devil, in our own culture.

There are definitely little sects of cults worshiping something satanic/pagan beyond Avernus in BO1, like under a house in the plague-ridden Corhagen. Those same monks with their fire-spitting spell books reside, and there's a large cauldron in the shame of a skull with fire coals within. Even random houses of otherwise respectable people have men and women chained up and blood everywhere in BO1's Nosgoth, so yeah, there's a lot of cruel evil worshiping going on, and probably to Hash. Like Satan, just because a being is thought to be it by some, as in Turel, that doesn't mean there isn't a different one out there for others.


And just because the Hylden are involved with Turel, that doesn't mean that they are intrinsically a part of this Hash worshiping in Nosgoth, either. Maybe they are, maybe they chose the name, or maybe Azimuth and Mortanius did, thinking that the Hylden must have been the real Hash'ak'gik. It's unclear.



On a side possible to this: we don't know what the Hylden worshiped before they departed. We know that they refused the Ancient's God. Presumption has been that they might have worshiped science over an actual God, however, they also use magic and curses -- specifically they used a blood curse on the vampires (unless it was a virus, and the Ancients only could state what it was as a curse). Interesting that they would have some curse, possibly, that has to do with blood. Maybe they actually worshiped through blood rituals Hash'ak'gik, and for this paganism, the Ancients saw them as blasphemers needing to be purged, which would be another layer to the whole "refused to submit to the wheel and [our] God" cause for starting the war with them. Just because someone doesn't want to worship what you do, do you start a war with them? Obviously we have evidence of that still going on in our world, but if you add in that you think what they're practicing is utter evil, exemplified in them slaughtering people in blood sacrifices (something that any reasonable being might also see as wrong), then you have a real, palpable reason to force them to stop. They refuse and it's suddenly all-out war.

Anyway, just thinking out loud...


Edit:

Originally Posted by Count D

Well, Raziel didn't actually eat souls of his brethren, as he did with his usual snacks - the souls themselves go to him and become absorbed into his own, so they didn't go back to the Wheel. So no, there was no endless cycle of reincarnation for him.

While it's a visual difference in how he reaves their souls, yes, there's nothing ever stating that Raziel does not, in fact, send their souls still back to the wheel. I can't imagine he's walking around with five other souls inside of him (actually, there are like three, at least, Hylden souls he also carries over into him, so that'd be eight souls swirling around inside him by this point)... The most the difference is in regards to is in that Raziel physically absorbs gifts from them, such as the immunity to water, and finally Turel's increased telekinetic power.

His soul (the Player!Raz) goes to the Reaver to form the Soul Reaver. His other soul (WraithBlade) and his brethren's souls become absorbed by Kain, thus restoring Kain's own soul.
No Wheel for any of them.

But, that means now that Kain has his soul restored ... under your logic he also has at least nine other souls swirling inside of him now??

No, can't go with that one.

[Aranor]

I would think once Raziel reaves Turel's soul his soul goes to the wheel or wherever in the underworld to await the wheel but can be spun into life until it is missing again. So, we have his soul being born, dying, being recalled into a vampire then dying again at the hands (or mouth) of Raziel. The vampire soul is reaved and goes to the wheel before the human soul dies. Human soul waits for its turn on the wheel in which it is denied by Kain. The wheel has not recieved the human soul thus no it has not returned and can not be reborn. Human turned vampire soul reenters the world of the living and thus no room for the elder vampire soul to be reborn. Vampire soul goes back in time to never return, slot available.

Nature basically was given a logic error.

[Graz'zt]

Maybe Hash isn't a name but a title?

[TheSquid]

there are like three, at least, Hylden souls he also carries over into him

after Raz kills Hash, the several hylden who were inhabiting Hash probably just flee the scene and return to their own bodies elsewhere. I wasn't picturing them sticking around to get dined on by Raz. They're pros at this possession stuff. And I think each time Raz ate a brother's soul, it went to the wheel, except for the Kainy portion which Raz absorbed and held on to. His new dark gifts were proof he was still walking around with those soul bits Kain had originally lent out to the brothers to turn them. Then, when Raz expires, Kain gets all those soul fragments back, including Raz's own..........

Hey that's right, every time through Coorhagen I see that basement and say "oooh, snap! these guys CAUSED the plague!" and then I forget about it five minutes later. A death god's soldiers at work! In the same world as a life-cycle "god." A Nosgoth Pantheon? I wonder how the two of them might jostle for position as they danced the tango together through the ages. Similarly, I forget about the voice in the spirit forges shortly after visiting them. I usually think of it as a demon's voice because of the statues. But it's potentially the voice of Hash, though. Whoa. (I like to think of the Blood of Ages voice as yet another emergent demigod who's closer to having the vampires' back than these others are. Hash would be more like "You're evil beings now! Frolick in the evilness and I'll reward you for staying dark!" whereas the blood fountain voice would be more like "Here, I'll show you what you can become! I'll help lift you up if only you strive for it! You can turn the curse around to your benefit from within!")

Back to Hash....
So the Hash altar was all about spilling blood and letting it seep into the earth ("wasting it", from the vampires' point of view). So that puts Hash in opposition to vamps, like he's saying the blood should go to him and not to the drinkers. He gets a kick out of vampires sacrificing to him in Omen, too. Like he's saying "Who's your daddy? Who's your daddy?" For the hylden, these blood sacrifices could have powered many spirit forge devices. But also each sacrifice symbolically strikes a blow against vampires because it deprives them of a meal. That may sound silly, but it would start to add up if every firstborn was targeted. That would thin the food supply significantly, and then when the hash cult started causing major death events like the plague that'd be like pulling the rug out from under vampires enough to put the vampire population at risk. Their plot keeps getting deadlier until in BO2 it's been built up to planet-killer status (they wanted to use the Mass to end... all life, was it? Or just most life?) And Elder's reaction to the death cult might have been "Hey what happened to the whole delicate balance of life and death, you jerks?" He'd tell his ancients to go clobber the enemy cult.

Maybe [the hylden] actually worshiped Hash'ak'gik through blood rituals, and for this paganism the Ancients saw them as blasphemers needing to be purged

Hylden do seem to combine magic with tech. Maybe the source of their witchy powers can be traced back to having a death god on their side????


Wouldn't it be cool if hash's altar was the first place where the hylden officially bound Ancients to the vampire curse during some sort of magical blood rite??? All of the witch power stamped onto that location could then explain why the barriers between worlds are thin there so the hylden still have a foothold in that location even after being kicked off the planet. Something fundamentally hylden is anchored there at the Altar of the World. They invested some portion of their species' soul in that place, which is why they were able to reach through and turn Avernus into a hotbed of human possession even before Ariel's murder let them back into the world at large. First they had to possess Ariel's murderer.

[The Hylden]

Originally Posted by TheSquid

after Raz kills Hash, the several hylden who were inhabiting Hash probably just flee the scene and return to their own bodies elsewhere.

No, you visually see them come over into Raziel, and his eyes glow green. That's why they glow green later in the fight with Kain.



@9:05

And I think each time Raz ate a brother's soul, it went to the wheel, except for the Kainy portion which Raz absorbed and held on to. His new dark gifts were proof he was still walking around with those soul bits Kain had originally lent out to the brothers to turn them. Then, when Raz expires, Kain gets all those soul fragments back, including Raz's own..........

It's proof only that Raziel's own soul gained those abilities, not that those soul portions are within Raziel, or that Kain ever "lost" those soul portions. I rather believe that Kain's soul portion that was breathed into a corpse is regenerated within him, as Raziel's own soul regenerates in the Spectral Realm. However, there's no proof either way on this.

[Graz'zt]

It's proof only that Raziel's own soul gained those abilities, not that those soul portions are within Raziel, or that Kain ever "lost" those soul portions. I rather believe that Kain's soul portion that was breathed into a corpse is regenerated within him, as Raziel's own soul regenerates in the Spectral Realm. However, there's no proof either way on this.[/QUOTE]

In SR1 you can feed on the humans without killing them, if you let them sit a minute they get back up and they're fine probably happened with Kain. His soul regenerated.

[TheSquid]

My hesitance to go along with that is..... if he recovers quickly and completely from popping out kids, there's nothing stopping him from siring a baby every hour on the hour. Going into labor should sting at least a little bit, no? Or else it seems unimportant. And especially for someone dead, raising any semblance of life should cost ya and put you through more exertion than a mild jog. So I found it preferable to think of Kain's soul as a lemon he squeezed to make lemonade (lieutenants). At a certain point, you've squeezed all the juice out that there is, and no matter how hard you press that lemon, ain't no more juice to be had from it (there wasn't quite enough to properly complete the siring of Melchiah.) This way of looking at it also explains why he never went back to the well to sire round 2 of vampire babies, because he had no excess soul energies left to give.


And you got me on the green eyes transferring to reaver boy. That does explain why the hylden were so giddy about the death of their 'god.' They were body-jumping into the champion. It was a banner day for them. Not quite the same as Raziel chomping a defenseless soul. These guys were hitchhikers. So their consciousness may still have drifted off to wherever after the day's work was done.

My favorite humans to drain but leave alive are the flamethrower jocks and that lady in blue near the citadel's big orange staircase.

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

I really have to disagree with you The Hylden, it seems very obvious to me that Hash'ak'gik and the Spirit Forges were meant to be connected.

From the book:
"And Hash'ak'gik spoke to the world, and all who heard trembled. 'Bring me your first born, and shed their blood on the alter of the world, so I might take nourishment from them. Do this without question, or suffer my wrath for eternity.' And it's will was done."

From the Spirit Forges:
"Shed your blood for me, and these artifacts will be yours."

The Spirit Forges have statues of demons in it, and one of them has a statue of the exact Dark Entity demon that Kain fights at the end.

And of course, Kain speaking of a book in Willendorf:
"I came upon another book of interest buried deep amongst the library’s tomes. It spoke of a small cult that existed in Nosgoth, ages past. Wherever they traveled strange tales of human possession would follow. Little is known of the god they worshipped."

Mortanius is of course possessed. The times when he mocks Kain ("Oh, little vampire, the game grows interesting. But with so many pawns, can you find the true player?"), he is possessed by the Dark Entity, as confirmed by the Silicon Knights FAQ:

"Explaining Mortanius's motives.
Mortanius is in constant conflict against "The Unspoken" who is inside him. Mortanius' goal was to correct the imbalance he has caused by murdering Ariel, while under the Dark Entity's control. Kain was created to destroy the old circle so a new one could rise to replace it. As the game progresses, some of Mortanius's actions are his own, some are him being controlled."

They were limited in how many voices they had available for the game, and of course had to reuse voices actors, but I don't think it's any coincidence that the voice that speaks to Kain in the Spirit Forge is very similar to the Dark Entity.

I really don't see how anyone could deny that the Spirit Forges are connected to Hash'ak'gik. If you look at everything presented in that game, it's very obvious to me

[The Hylden]

Originally Posted by TheSquid

My hesitance to go along with that is..... if he recovers quickly and completely from popping out kids, there's nothing stopping him from siring a baby every hour on the hour.

But, human beings aren't diminished so from having children that they can't go beyond a certain limit and that's all. Most people only choose not to have as many kids for economic/other practical reasons. It's not like mothers are so worn down by a fourth/fifth/whatever number child that each afterward is threatening their lives. However, if they had say, quintuplets all at once, they'd probably need a while to recover from that. Kain's not "birthing" kids every hour, and he probably was weakened a lot by Melchiah that it took him a while to recover, but he obviously has, given his demigod power. I think he only hasn't continued to sire more under him due to the fact that he decided he'd split the empire between enough factions and it's now their job to birth their Legions from that. Oh, and if they're making necro vamps, which they are, it's a darn good possibility that they're using the same method as he did to sire them, and they're none the worse for it over the 1,500 years seen doing so.

That does explain why the hylden were so giddy about the death of their 'god.' They were body-jumping into the champion. It was a banner day for them. Not quite the same as Raziel chomping a defenseless soul. These guys were hitchhikers. So their consciousness may still have drifted off to wherever after the day's work was done.

Their consciousness went where all souls Raziel devours go, back to the EG. I don't believe they knew that they'd be hopping into Raziel. He drew them in with Turel simply because they were there when his being was feeding. I don't think either that they had much, if any, control over their influence on Raziel. He describes it as the madness of Avernus fueling his rage, but he probably wasn't aware he was funneling the rage from the meal he just ate, kind of like the affects of a controlled substance and him reveling in it.

Originally Posted by Zulgbrtzchllha

I really have to disagree with you The Hylden, it seems very obvious to me that Hash'ak'gik and the Spirit Forges were meant to be connected.

From the book:
"And Hash'ak'gik spoke to the world, and all who heard trembled. 'Bring me your first born, and shed their blood on the alter of the world, so I might take nourishment from them. Do this without question, or suffer my wrath for eternity.' And it's will was done."

From the Spirit Forges:
"Shed your blood for me, and these artifacts will be yours."

The Spirit Forges have statues of demons in it, and one of them has a statue of the exact Dark Entity demon that Kain fights at the end.

And of course, Kain speaking of a book in Willendorf:
"I came upon another book of interest buried deep amongst the library’s tomes. It spoke of a small cult that existed in Nosgoth, ages past. Wherever they traveled strange tales of human possession would follow. Little is known of the god they worshipped."

Mortanius is of course possessed. The times when he mocks Kain ("Oh, little vampire, the game grows interesting. But with so many pawns, can you find the true player?"), he is possessed by the Dark Entity, as confirmed by the Silicon Knights FAQ:

"Explaining Mortanius's motives.
Mortanius is in constant conflict against "The Unspoken" who is inside him. Mortanius' goal was to correct the imbalance he has caused by murdering Ariel, while under the Dark Entity's control. Kain was created to destroy the old circle so a new one could rise to replace it. As the game progresses, some of Mortanius's actions are his own, some are him being controlled."

They were limited in how many voices they had available for the game, and of course had to reuse voices actors, but I don't think it's any coincidence that the voice that speaks to Kain in the Spirit Forge is very similar to the Dark Entity.

I really don't see how anyone could deny that the Spirit Forges are connected to Hash'ak'gik. If you look at everything presented in that game, it's very obvious to me

But, we're not disagreeing on that, nor am I denying that they were connected... My point was that indeed this was all probably linked to the actual Hash. Turel, on the other hand, was Hash by name only and that just because one sect called him that does not negate other worship going on to the dark god, Hash'ak'gik in the rest of Nosgoth.

I was using our real world as an analogy, that our own satanic cults and witches believing in paganism believe all in the devil (and demons) and all around the world. Yet, one person somewhere could claim still today that they have the living incarnation of Satan that they're sacrificing blood to and would be able to draw a following of satanic worshipers to him. However, the entirety of the satanic-believing culture wouldn't necessarily follow across the globe. There would still be other sects, like the one seen in Corhagen, or other places where alters are -- like the Spirit Forges -- where people still worship the "real" Satan (or Hash, in this case).

It just seems quite apparent that Mortanius and Azimuth were either told by the Hylden this was Hash'ak'gik, or they, themselves, used him as such to gain followers to do their bidding.

As to the statues: the statues seen in the Spirit forges differ. The demon one you mention has four arms and more horns,





... just like the fire demons and not the two arms and lesser horns of the "Dark Entity" version seen in Mortanius, while another looks like one of the gangly, undead orange/black/green cloaked floaty guys that shoot homing energy at you in dungeons and all throughout the swamp to Vorador's lair.



However, yes, I do believe that there is a darn good possibility that they're connected still to Hash (I believe I only noted above that it's never said for certain). So, yeah, we're not at odds here... Kain refers to what dwell in the Spirit Forges as wraiths and shades, and calls the smithies within in a plural terminology, so he, at least, thinks he's talking to more than one being in there. These statues might be, therefore, representatives of the undead/otherworldly followers of Hash'ak'gik, much like again our own world believes in demons and others in the armies of Satan/Baal/whatever evil entity in whatever religion. So, you wouldn't be talking/communing with the actual Satan of this world, Hash, but with his underlings -- kind of like the crossroad demons of Supernatural (pop culture reference! )

Edit: from Dark Chronicle:

Kain described the forges as being inhabited by "wraiths and shades". He said the Wraith Smiths created their artefacts with "forfeit souls". Kain's Wraith Armour was made by "the most impure of Spirit Forges, tempered from the seething agony of tortured souls." Despite these descriptions, the forges did not seem associated with the various types of wraiths and Shades that Kain and Raziel encountered elsewhere in Blood Omen, Soul Reaver, Soul Reaver 2 and Defiance.[1,2]

Kain's quotes on the matter:

Kain: "One must be wary in dealing with the Spirit Forges. The Wraiths and Shades that inhabit them offer items beyond mortal dreams, in exchange for a sampling of your blood. The Wraith Smiths forge their items with forfeit souls."

Kain (referring to the Wraith Armor): "This armor was spawned in the most impure of Spirit Forges; tempered from the seething agony of tortured souls. The metal exists only partially in the human realm, causing it to fade between tangible and ethereal states."

[Corlagon]

Originally Posted by Zulgbrtzchllha

I really don't see how anyone could deny that the Spirit Forges are connected to Hash'ak'gik. If you look at everything presented in that game, it's very obvious to me

It seems like a fairly tenuous link. Kain cites the Wraith Smiths as "wraiths" and "shades" (not gods!) who, rather passively it seems, forge items out of souls in exchange for the "blood of the dead". Hash'ak'gik is a malevolent god/entity who violently possesses people and wants to bring the Circle of Nine to its knees.

The statues in the Forges are indeed copies of various BO1 demons, undead and mutants (slightly altered), but none of them re-use the Dark Entity's model.

[Graz'zt]

Hey, I started a continuing thread. That means I get 10 awesome points. BTW- is anyone else sick of eidos releasing new tombraider games? Make a new LOK already!

[TheSquid]

Originally Posted by Graz'zt

Maybe Hash isn't a name but a title?

So like a dynasty of dark entities, then? Whoever's currently the big man on campus (Evil University) gets crowned as the reigning Hash and is worshipped until another comes along.

Their consciousness went where all souls Raziel devours go, back to the EG. I don't believe they knew that they'd be hopping into Raziel.

Oh come on. Of course they knew what they were doing. If they wanted Raz to kill Turel, which they clearly did, then they expected to get something out of it, and we see that they did get to transfer over, so it's safe to say that was the plan. It had to be. Or else they wouldn't have been able to steer their champion into the fight with Kain, which was their big goal. That ^ I'm sure of. This next part, less so...

And if their green glow is still surfacing in Raziel's eyes hours after being consumed then it's safe to say they weren't digested in the normal fashion and didn't get sent straight to Elder like other souls do. They hitched a ride and were not in Raz's gullet but in the control room behind his eyes. It appears Kain & Raziel can't be fully possessed in the standard way used by the hylden, so to get into Raz's noggin they had to engineer this special trojan horse method of sneaking into his system as he absorbed his brother's soul. I don't think Elder claimed their souls; it was they who did the claiming; we saw them repo their champion. They were riding up front in the cab of the tow truck with the driver, Raziel, and then at a crucial moment during the Kain confrontation they reached over and grabbed the steering wheel to ensure the fight happened. So I'd maintain that they outsmarted Raziel's gullet-to-Elder system and got away with it, afterwards drifting off into the next body they had lined up for posession, since they couldn't fully possess Raziel and the semi-possession had served its purpose. This "perfect crime of possession" would fit in with the Defiance theme of complete hylden victory which Dark Janos was so proud of in that speech he gave.

[The Hylden]

Originally Posted by TheSquid

Oh come on. Of course they knew what they were doing. If they wanted Raz to kill Turel, which they clearly did, then they expected to get something out of it, and we see that they did get to transfer over, so it's safe to say that was the plan. It had to be. Or else they wouldn't have been able to steer their champion into the fight with Kain, which was their big goal. That ^ I'm sure of.

I will concede that they thought that this was the hour of their sacrifice, but I don't think they knew exactly what was going to happen, nor that they were in control over much. They might have known that they'd make this sacrifice, but no-one else knows Raziel is anything but their side's Champion. These hylden think that he's their champion, and not necessarily a devourer of souls. Even if they do know this, however, the final problem is that they simply cannot will themselves out of him. They're not possessing him; he's eating them. When he's consuming Turel's soul, he brings them over as a tasty desert. Every brother that Raziel has defeated thus far, while his devouring of them is not the classic drop the cowl and feed maneuver, it has been labeled "Consuming [such-and-such]'s soul grants you [such-and-such-ability]." This is the final brother and he does reave -- consume -- his soul, along with the hitchhikers with him.

Here's the dialgoue from this event. Before the fight with Turel:

Turel/Hylden:
The hour is at hand.
and As it was foretold.

Raziel: (confused)
Turel?

Turel/Hylden:
We use his voice to command the disciples above.
and We demand offerings to keep the host alive.
and He has been a durable vessel, but he can take us no further.

Turel breaks free from his possession for a moment, but then succumbs once more.

Turel/Hylden:
You must prevail.
and The champion of our enemy draws near...

You can see that they know this is the our of something, and I'm contending it's simply their sacrifice for the cause. The two there that want to use Turel's voice to still command the disciples seem to not be on the same page as the others, or this is a stark statement that none of them really knows exactly what they're in for here.

After the fight:

Turel:
Yes, now...

As Raziel prepares to finish Turel, Turel once again comes under the Hyldens' influence.

Turel/Hylden:
Go - speed your endeavor -
and Face him - and kill him -
and Destroy the Binding at last...
and We shall all be...

The green glow fades from Turel's eyes.

Turel: (dying)
Free...

Now, they seem to think that Raziel is now supposed to go and face his endeavor and to kill Kain and that they will be free. However, they aren't showing any signs that they're going to support in this fight and act for him, nor that they're ready to add their strength to his own, or anything like that. This is it, for them, and they're ready for it -- perhaps they think simply that they are now able to escape Turel and await the fall of the binding from afar. However, they could not be more wrong. Raziel sucks them up like a slurpie and then gets what amounts to a sustained sugar high for the battle to come.

And if their green glow is still surfacing in Raziel's eyes hours after being consumed then it's safe to say they weren't digested in the normal fashion and didn't get sent straight to Elder like other souls do.

It only lasts for the duration of the battle with Kain, which is, as far as we can know, right after his talk with Mortanius. Kain arrives, and Raziel is transported from the catacombs to the cathedral above to meet him. The green glow never is seen again.

They hitched a ride and were not in Raz's gullet but in the control room behind his eyes. It appears Kain & Raziel can't be fully possessed in the standard way used by the hylden, so to get into Raz's noggin they had to engineer this special trojan horse method of sneaking into his system as he absorbed his brother's soul. I don't think Elder claimed their souls; it was they who did the claiming; we saw them repo their champion. They were riding up front in the cab of the tow truck with the driver, Raziel, and then at a crucial moment during the Kain confrontation they reached over and grabbed the steering wheel to ensure the fight happened. So I'd maintain that they outsmarted Raziel's gullet-to-Elder system and got away with it, afterwards drifting off into the next body they had lined up for posession, since they couldn't fully possess Raziel and the semi-possession had served its purpose. This "perfect crime of possession" would fit in with the Defiance theme of complete hylden victory which Dark Janos was so proud of in that speech he gave.

Put it this way, even if they were able to control Raziel in any way, themselves, during that battle, they didn't escape Raziel. They did get sent back to the EG, as there was no shot ever of their escape and their glow simply faded from his eyes. If they had that much control, they still knew this was the Coup de grâce; their Grande Finale, indeed. The Hylden can possess people, but we do not see them with the ability to free their very soul from the soul of a wraith that's able to eat them up. What about the hundreds of other Hylden Raziel ate along the way? You think that they could also escape Raziel's gullet and the EG too? I don't.

[TheSquid]

Originally Posted by The Hylden

You can see that they know this is the hour of something, and I'm contending it's simply their sacrifice for the cause. They aren't showing any signs that they're going to support [Raziel] in this fight and act for him, nor that they're ready to add their strength to his own, or anything like that.

Are too! We're hearing their lines differently in our heads is all it comes down to. The hylden are incredibly informed about the timeline. So if they say this moment is happening "as foretold", that means to me that they're fully aware of its outcome. They know they'll be transfering to the champion to "speed his endeavor", which is why they're salivating for him to finish off Turel. They're saying "Speed your endeavor by taking Turel's dark gift and adding it to your strengths." If they know that's going to happen, they know they're coming along for the ride. If they knew that this was the hour of Turel's sacrifice, they'd also know the full significance of it. They'd know that it was going to be them nudging Raziel to kill the scion of balance. And they'd know that they were going to succeed at Avernus, because it was already part of the history they were so informed about. Their prophets were still functioning at that point in time.


Sidebar:
Also, are we sure the hylden are even projecting their souls into the people they possess at all? (and not just forcing their consciousness into the victim by opening up some toxic hell conduit inside the person's own spirit to infect it)? We weren't shown their methods, so it's tough to be sure. Souls seem to be the key to everything in Nosgoth, so it seems likely that possession = soul sending. But if they're not sending proper souls into their victims, then there'd be nothing for Raziel and Elder to lay claim to and devour or vacuum into the underworld. .....I guess they do send their actual soul to possess folks, because whenever Raz kills those revenant goons in Vorador's mansion he eats their souls, which would have to be hylden spirits since the original vampire souls are long gone from those corpses. ....So when hylden possess a living victim, that'd make for a crowded double-souled victim. Which seems weird/unlikely. Wonder if the green attack forces the original soul out of the body. One other possibility is the green possession attack only poisons the victim's soul but doesn't replace it or add another soul to it. So when Raziel comes along and eats that green spirit he's not dining on a true hylden soul but rather on an earthling's soul that's been "hyldenized." The hylden consciousness would just go on its merry way and snap back into its own body. (It's tougher to make that work in the case of those long-dead Vorador hallway goons. That'd require the body's original vampire soul to be called back into the body by the hylden as part of the possession/reanimation, so that they would have something to infect.) Eh. Also weird/unlikely.
---End of Sidebar, and an apology for making people read all of that.---

The Hylden can possess people, but we do not see them with the ability to free their very soul from the soul of a wraith that's able to eat them up. What about the hundreds of other Hylden Raziel ate along the way? You think that they could also escape Raziel's gullet and the EG too? I don't.

The hundred others didn't succeed in hacking their way in like these did. Those earlier ones were consumed the scarf way. These last ones were absorbed in the special brothers-only way---they were the computer viruses that got past the firewall. Now their possession bag of tricks comes into play. The others never got a shot at possessing Raziel and were simply food-swallowed like any regular soul.

Originally Posted by The Hylden

they simply cannot will themselves out of him.

They're pros at willing themselves in and out of foreign bodies. It's what they do every time they green someone. They are slippery enough and skilled enough at this very type of soul play to elude the trap.

Originally Posted by The Hylden

"Consuming [such-and-such]'s soul grants you [such-and-such-ability]." He does reave -- consume -- Turel's soul, along with the hitchhikers with him.

Those earlier vampire souls have been helpless at the time of consumption. These spirits are aware, trained fighters by comparison, like infiltrators who make a living taking over others from within, and he's just let them inside. Trojan horse.

[The Hylden]

Originally Posted by TheSquid

Are too! We're hearing their lines differently in our heads is all it comes down to. The hylden are incredibly informed about the timeline. So if they say this moment is happening "as foretold", that means to me that they're fully aware of its outcome. They know they'll be transfering to the champion to "speed his endeavor", which is why they're salivating for him to finish off Turel.

Yet, they specifically tell him to speed his own endeavor. They tell him to face Kain and kill him. They wouldn't need to plead with him to do his own actions (especially ones that they knew that they, by way of through him, would already prevail in...) if they knew that they were about to steer him on, themselves. Plus, Raziel is the being walking around with free will, not they. They can't force him to do anything. If fate and time cannot force Raziel to make choices, you think the Hylden can? They can plead their case, like Moebis and Kain, and Raziel can weight what he thinks he should do, but other than that, Raziel is the one driving this free wheel horse. He did allow himself to bathe in their rage, but that appears to be all the influence he chose to take on, before he consumed them utterly. I will note that the Reaver also glows green at this time only in the main game. If the cutscene is played independently, it does not. If, mind you, the power gleaned from the Hylden can be used at any time, this would be why it still lingers on here, or else this is a visual mistake by the team (the cutscenes unfortunately have a few of them). I don't believe that Raziel houses others' souls within him of either his brethren, or these Hylden, but he certainly can keep a portion of their essence added to his own, like the ability to swim, TK upgrades, the ability to climb faster, and how this maddening berserker rage from the Hylden souls he consumed.

Note, this is relevant information to multiple points in this thread from the interviews:

Q: How does the Hash'ak'gik/Turel/Hylden relationship work?
A: "Hash'ak'gik" is the name the human worshippers use for their god. The actual Hash entity is a leader among the Hylden, who has his own agenda. In Defiance, he possesses Janos. In Blood Omen, he uses the transformed body of Mortanius as a vessel. In Blood Omen 2, he appears as the Hylden Lord (AKA Sarafan Lord). When Raziel meets Turel, Turel is actually being possessed by a number of other Hylden (not the Hylden Lord). Many different Hylden did so in order to command their disciples.

Turel is actually not Hash, but is, in fact, simply called Hash by Mort, Azimuth, and the worshipers. Hash'ak'gik is actually the Hylden Lord, and he's been clawing at the Binding since way back in the day when they were banished. It makes sense that he would be manipulating cults of humans for centuries, if not thousands of years, to do his bidding.

Q: How did Turel come to be in Avernus?
A: This was left deliberately vague so that a future game could cover it if desired. The implication based on the story of Blood Omen is that the circle used their dimensional- and time-travelling powers to bring him to them. Amy says that casting him as Hash wasn't a recent decision, but was made shortly after he was cut from Soul Reaver.

So, they've had time to think on this, since SR1. It wasn't just haphazardly put in.

Q: There has been speculation in the past that both Lady Azimuth and Moebius were devout followers of Hash'ak'gik. Would it be safe to say that this is indeed the case? Azimuth alone wouldn't be able to summon Hash, but could with Moebius' help.
A: Azimuth and Mortanius served the Hylden, who they knew as "Hash'ak'gik." They were seduced away from their service of the Pillars by the power they unearthed beneath Avernus.

Moebius didn't serve Hash'ak'gik, though. He's always been a servant of the Elder God.

The means of summoning Turel was left deliberately vague, so that a future game might be able to cover it.

It's not stated when Mortanius and Azimuth unearthed this power, exactly. The one gripe here is that the Hash thing was supposed to be long in the past. Mortanius has been a guardian even before when Vorador slaughtered the others 500 years in the past. If Azimuth was born to replace the dead Planar back then, that's a lot of time for this teaming up and unearthing to have occurred. The Prima guide lists the Cenobites as worshiping Turel for "years." That obviously could mean a drastic difference in time. Years as in centuries years? Decades? We don't know form that.

1. Is the first BO1 timestreaming device the one that was used to bring Turel back, Kain said something like, 'So she could bring creatures from other eras and dimensions'

Since Azimuth was the Dimension Guardian she could not pull creatures from other times only from other places or dimensions. Through the use of the Chronoplast she possessed Azimuth pulled Turel from the future back to the bowels of Avernus Cathedral.

If that typo means the possessed Azimuth, then the Hylden Lord, or one of the other Hylden, also possessed Azimuth too back then. Just a side note*

20. If the Hylden are exempt from the wheel, do they have free will, like Raziel, Kain and the Elder God? And can the be seen through time or not?

They are exempt from the Elder God's wheel of life due to their dislocation in a different dimension but not from the rules of fate and predetermined events that Raziel has been freed from with his remaking into the world. With their technological advancement it is very probable that they can glimpse at future events.

Just a further note (has come up before recently) that the Hylden are not, in fact, exempt from fate.

Now, back to the rest....

Sidebar:
Also, are we sure the hylden are even projecting their souls into the people they possess at all? (and not just forcing their consciousness into the victim by opening up some toxic hell conduit inside the person's own spirit to infect it)?

Quoting from the Prima Strategy Guide:

Due to the weakening of boundaries that separate the various planes of existence, the Hylden's strength over the realm of Nosgoth is increasing. This allows them within various degrees the ability to possess hapless victims and subvert them to their cause. Usually, this involves the invasion of the host by a transient disembodied Hylden soul. Once taken over the affects can be varied. The lightest possessions merely increase the strength and ferocity of the victim, while the heaviest can not only repurpose the mind for their uses but the very skin and bone as well. In these heaviest of cases, the very body of the host is twisted and disfigured into monstrous size and deformity.

Revenants were once normal corpses that have been possessed by disconnected Hylden souls.

The strongest form of Revenant is created when a Hylden soul possesses a dead Hylden body.

Additional from the Interviews:

Q: What is meant by Janos being "the uncorruptable vessel?"
A: Possession by a Hylden "uses up" regular hosts. Mortanius lasted longer because he was the Death Guardian, but eventually succumbed. Janos and Turel - as immortal Vampires - could last forever, but Turel was trapped in the Catacombs. Janos also was able to power the Device because he was the last of the Ancients. The Hylden can be gentle with their possession, which makes the host last longer, or they can fully possess them, which transforms the body - this is what has happened to the Revenants later in the game, as well as what happens to Mortanius at the end of Blood Omen.

.....

The hundred others didn't succeed in hacking their way in like these did. Those earlier ones were consumed the scarf way.

No, I was talking about Raziel's other Lieutenant brethren, who were consumed the same way Turel was, without the scarf method. Yet, they're labeled as still being consumed by him. He reaves their souls, either way, just as he does Turel's -- the final to be reaved. Intern, so does he reave up the Hylden in there with Turel.

They're pros at willing themselves in and out of foreign bodies. It's what they do every time they green someone. They are slippery enough and skilled enough at this very type of soul play to elude the trap. Those earlier vampire souls have been helpless at the time of consumption. These spirits are aware, trained fighters by comparison, like infiltrators who make a living taking over others from within, and he's just let them inside. Trojan horse.

Yet, they aren't shown able to will themselves out of the very soul that just ate them, regardless of how he ate them. The Hylden can bounce in and out of bodies. All of the quotes up there list them possessing hosts bodies of their victims. They possess corpses, or living bodies, shoving that soul and consciousness aside. They aren't seen able to possess souls. Like Kain's Spirit Wrack in Blood Omen 1, he replaces the soul of the host with his own (Hylden can be more gentle, and not do this outright).


lol, these long posts....

[TheSquid]

Originally Posted by The Hylden

Yet, they specifically tell him to speed his own endeavor.

"by gobbling us."

They wouldn't need to plead with him to do his own actions if they knew that they were about to steer him on themselves.

They weren't pleading so much as blathering. In that neener-neener, we're always a step ahead of you way that evil villians often have. They were saying, "Come on, kill Turel and trigger this series of foretold events already! We double dare you!"

If fate and time cannot force Raziel to make choices, you think the Hylden can? Raziel is the being walking around with free will, not they. They can't force him to do anything.

Can and did, which is seen by how they shoved his free will aside and greened his eyes for the fight. How embarrassing for him that yet another faction got him to do its bidding. Freedom isn't worth quite so much when you're free to be duped over and over.

He did allow himself to bathe in their rage

As designed. A major part of the plan they'd spent so much effort on. Do you really think that the culmination of that plan (influencing their champion to fight for their cause) happened as just some happy coincidence???? All was orchestrated.

I don't believe that Raziel houses others' souls within him of either his brethren, or these Hylden, but he certainly can keep a portion of their essence added to his own, like the ability to swim, TK upgrades, the ability to climb faster, and how this maddening berserker rage from the Hylden souls he consumed.

Very possible that it's just a residual influence. Rage is the main defining trait of the hylden, making it likely that it would be the "gift" he'd receive from absorbing their essence.

It's not stated when Mortanius and Azimuth unearthed this power, exactly. The one gripe here is that the Hash thing was supposed to be long in the past. ...Vorador slaughtered the others [guardians] 500 years in the past. If Azimuth was born to replace the dead Planar back then, that's a lot of time for this teaming up and unearthing to have occurred.

Maybe the hylden took a deep breath after possessing Mort and asked themselves "How do we use this guy now? Because we'd better make it count." So it could have taken them more than a century to craft the grand scheme that kicked off with Ariel's murder. In that time, the Hash cult would have been keeping things on the down low so they wouldn't attract unwanted attention. So those skipped-over years or centuries were spent in neutral, on the back burner? As for Asimuth, she might have actually represented a reduction in the number of circle members addicted to Hash. Remember it was Moebius who pulled the strings and made sure those 6 guardians died at Vorador's hands. So that guardian purge was basically done with the Oracle's blessing. Meaning that Moe & Squid fired several guardians and purged them from the circle that day. They had a low opinion of the other circle members for some reason... possibly for being Hash-loving fools. (Just a notion, not something I'm pushing you to rebutt.)

that the Hylden are not, in fact, exempt from fate.

A mistake, in my opinion. At the time, they believed that tying the hylden to fate would make their job as writers easier. Maybe so, but it makes it tougher to truly make sense of the timeline. Making the hyldens slaves to fate like everyone else takes away the very tool that could be used to explain the hylden's wild swings in fate. So we're left with the confusing mixture of "They're part of the fate equation, ......even though they continually appear to be dropping bombs from outside the expected timeline."

No, I was talking about Raziel's other Lieutenant brethren, who were consumed the same way Turel was

No, in the same blurb, you linked the 3 Turel hylden (absorbed in a special way) with the "hundreds" of other hylden spirits Raz has eaten the normal way, to prove the point that the hundreds didn't escape so neither should the 3 Turel hylden. So I split up the two soul absorption methods Raziel uses, to show that the Bro Method didn't contain the hylden as well as the Scarfing 'Em Down Method. So if they're less contained (able to influence/momentarily possess Raziel), then it's very possible they were also less trapped within him. So when you mentioned "hundreds" I responded with my own reference to the "hundred" and where you spoke of the other absorption method used on lieutenents, I drew your attention to how none of those successfully consumed souls had been aware and capable of fighting back like these green hylden souls are, tethered to a still-alive distant body that can jerk them back to safety like it does at the end of any other possession attempt. Maybe the reason they didn't stick around very long is because they were being slowly digested by Raziel. So they only had a limited window of time in which to work their will on him. And, of course, the spirit forge purification would have cleansed them out of Raz's system anyway, if any lingering hylden influence was still clinging to him at that point.

They aren't seen able to possess souls.

Well, yeah, he's different. That's their difficulty. His hardware is not compatible with their possession software. So even when they got him, it was only a flickering hint of possession, like when Windows is on the fritz.

Like Kain's Spirit Wrack in Blood Omen 1 replaces the soul of the host with his own (Hylden can be more gentle, and not do this outright).

BO2's Control Mind-ish then?

lol, these long posts....

It's not sustainable, this long post lifestyle.

[Graz'zt]

Originally Posted by TheSquid

As for Asimuth, she might have actually represented a reduction in the number of circle members addicted to Hash.

Nice, visions of the Circle sitting around smoking dope and listening to "smoke on the water" are filling my head right now.

[Strands Of Night]

I get on right before bed to read one or two quick posts and end up sitting here for almost half an hour reading different opinions on hylden possession and soul consumption. Then its so intriguing that I have to make a post just to acknowledge that yes, I read your books, and I enjoyed! Now I must also post (via mobile at that)!

But I always thought that Hash'Ak'Gik were 3 separate entities, not one. And as such I just assumed the whole "speed your endevor" line was directed not toward Raziel, but toward the Hash entity as it went to reposess Mortanius in order to meet young Kain at the pillars, and possess Janos to feed the mass. Until you guys said it, I never thought that Turel's possessors were talking to Raziel. I always thought it was like listening in on someone's conversation where you don't know exactly what the topic was.

To add to the hylden possession theories... Theoretically the hylden could be possessing either of you to start a ginormous post war to eventually crash the internet, destroying the binding on Earth and making it necessary to utter a word, the world will bathe in blood... Or something. I have to be up in 4 hours and I'm going to settle for a long post... Just short of world ending! So uh... Vae Victus! (Im sleepy, I'm allowed to be that dumb right now.)