So essentially...

[Inquisitor Lexy]

Raz is a Sluagh, really, isn't he? The Elder says he spared Raziel to fulfil a 'necessary and noble' function, and yet this in the end means nothing more than that Raziel is doomed just like these 'scabrous wretches', a spirit who will never find his rest, or be returned to the wheel. The only difference seems to be that the Elder 'created' Raziel and gave him greater powers, while the Sluagh possibly came about on their own somehow. Or maybe the Elder created them too, and then chose to disown them.

Thinking about it that way,

no wonder Raziel sacrificed himself. The Elder was pretty dishonest with him in the sense he led him on to believe there was more to his destiny than to spend an eternity cleaning up what the Elder could not get at, and then, as retirement, to get to spend forever with the big squid for company.

Surely if the Elder created Raziel, and threatens to destroy him if he disobeys, he could have granted him or any of the sluagh their 'rest', but he apparently refused to. What a big-ass meanie.

[TheSquid]

ha you gave me the image of EG clubbing a slaugh over the head, dragging it back to his lair, propping it against a chair and dolling it up in Raziel makeup.

Raz the wraith is proven to be truly beyond death, though, unkillable even by the squid that claims to have made him. Come to think of it, so are slaughs.... when you "kill" them, they just turn dimmer and even more ghostly, like the ghost of a ghost, until they recharge their batteries and then they're back in business, like Raziel. Slaughs just seem easy to kill from our POV because we always have the ability to drop the scarf and scarf down on them. But to anybody else besides Raziel, slaughs would be just as beyond death as Raziel is! Huh. So you're thinking Raz has a slaugh sewn into him as part of his nature as the reaver of souls. For the sake of being consistent, would you explain all vampire wraiths that same way?:

All necro vamps (Rahabim, Dumahim, ...) could return as soul eaters after spending some down time in the spectral realm. Similar to Raziel's transformation. So we generally assume Raz was just another of those vamp wraiths to which Elder added some special upgrades (like planar portal access and "flesh gathering" powers to form his physical body, etc.)

But I imagine it could have happened like this: 1) a necro vampire is impaled 2) its soul is consumed by a slaugh 3) that slaugh starts to get indigestion 4) the potent vampire soul transforms the slaugh who ate it into a vampire wraith, with the soul taking control of its spectral host 4) someone pulls the stake out of the vampire in the material realm 5) the vampire's soul returns, along with the commandeered slaugh and its ability to feast on souls. Humph. That kinda fits, actually. It's not LOK doctrine, so folks like Wiki and Co. won't endorse it. But as a theory for how the spectral realm functions behind the scenes, it kind of sings.

[The Hylden]

If we're to believe the EG, the Sluagh are the native beings to the Spectral Realm dimension. This is in the quote you took of that says "scabrous wretches." If they are as the EG states, they sure aren't going to be returned to the Wheel, because they were never a part of it in the first place. Like the Demons of the Demon Realm, they would be natives that would only be subject to that realm's life and death/fate cycle, if it has any (this is reminding me of the question if the Demons and Hylden are the same). They feast on souls and possibly cannot die unless fed upon (though, we do not know their life cycle, obviously). They can come back to a solid state if they've been weakened by feasting on souls. These are their similarities to Raziel. However, I'd be inclined more to believe Raziel, that he is closer to the Archons, which are created by the EG. However, Raziel is unique by having his mind and having, of course, free will. He might be unique also in his origin, but we don't know what the EG made the Archons from.

I tend to think of the Sluagh's forms as the equivilent to the corporial forms in the physical world, kind of like a ghost has solid form via "ectoplasm" theorised in our reality, and most notibly, our fiction in movies like Ghostbusters. Raziel wills the same solid-type form for himself in the Spectral Realm, as do the Archons, and the Vampire Wraiths. Of note on the Sluagh, is that in all games they will feast on each other if one becomes weak enough to be more "etheral," or transparant. Perhaps they naturally weaken over time to this "death" in that realm and that is the natural end to their life cycle.

[Inquisitor Lexy]

TheSquid: Yeah, I think the similarity between Raz and the sluagh is too much to completely ignore... especially in Defiance where Raz is convinced that if he doesn't do something about his situation, he will basically 'become' a sluagh. But he is rather one already - he does what the sluagh do, they eat each other and lost souls, he eats them and lost souls, and the Elder tells him he has nothing more to do than this... the only real difference being that Raz is still sane and the sluagh apparently are a bit demented. It does seem as though the longer a creature spends in the spectral realm, the closer to sluagh they become...? Or that, the sluagh are the ultimate and highest form of a soul that refuses to return to the wheel. It seems like the Elder employed Raz as a sort of "super-sluagh" in that sense, he used him to do clean up the other sluagh 'vermin' and anything else he wanted tidied away. And when everything was put in order, he'd just face much the same conclusion as any surviving sluagh would, to be a permanent resident of the spectral realm and go nuts.

TheHylden: I was always a bit confused about that part. Elder says "their feral hunger has claimed countless souls - spirits who now shall never find their rest." Was he talking about the souls eaten by the sluagh or the sluagh themselves as being the spirits that shall never find rest? If he's talking about the sluagh, it vaguely implies to my mind that they weren't always sluagh and so were not automatically always there in the spectral realm doomed to scav forever on souls. Since dead vampires' souls can either cling on to 'life' or return to the wheel (I assume many of the ancients returned to it by choice) then it seem like the spectral world can contain spirits who refuse to return to the wheel as well, and perhaps the sluagh are just these spirits who have been down there so long they have gone mad and are somehow resistant to being drawn to the wheel.

At first I thought maybe the EG created the sluagh himself since he appears to have the ability to refuse to spin people's souls if he wants to, thus leaving them to 'evolve' into scavengers and hunters in the spectral realm. He wouldn't be above that sort of thing (since he's apparently happy to create Raziel and then discard him when he's done with, or to tell Kain out of spite that he will not be returned, etc). I'm not sure if he did or didn't create them, the fact he thinks they are vermin suggests you may be right... so he creates one almighty sluagh, and that sluagh was left to wander about for eternity, his job being to keep the underworld pest-free for the Elder. I think Raz is pretty much that almighty sluagh in all but name. EG claims to have created Raziel - if that's true, it's surely possible he has created other such beings before. But then, it's sort of implied that maybe this isn't the case, and Raziel is truly indestructible... but if it was true, and EG is his maker, could the sluagh just be the remains of other 'deathless' servants the EG created to serve him over time, and then forgot about once they had served their purpose? :/

[The Hylden]

Originally Posted by Inquisitor Lexy

TheSquid: Yeah, I think the similarity between Raz and the sluagh is too much to completely ignore... especially in Defiance where Raz is convinced that if he doesn't do something about his situation, he will basically 'become' a sluagh.

No, he's convinced he will become an Archon, which are the flying and land crab-like blue guys that are after you throughout Defiance.

But he is rather one already - he does what the sluagh do, they eat each other and lost souls, he eats them and lost souls, and the Elder tells him he has nothing more to do than this...

So do the vampire wraiths (if you count feeding on their own them trying to feed on Raziel). So do the archons (actually, we never see them feed on their own). They are not Sluagh. Raziel feeds himself on souls and feeds the EG by the same token, just like the archons do. Sluagh and vampire wraiths do not.

the only real difference being that Raz is still sane and the sluagh apparently are a bit demented. It does seem as though the longer a creature spends in the spectral realm, the closer to sluagh they become...?

Again, we've seen three distinct creatures in Spectral. Sluagh, vampire wraiths, and archons. All three are different, yet function the same only in the fact that they eat souls. All three are seen after their long "exposure" to Spectral. Yet, there is a distinct and undeniable visual difference between sluagh, vampire wraiths, and archons. Raziel thinks that he will become an archon if he lingers further in Spectral, not a sluagh. Oh, and Dumah became a vampire wraith after spending centuries in Spectral. He was still sane, relatively, and non-Sluagh-like.

TheHylden: I was always a bit confused about that part. Elder says "their feral hunger has claimed countless souls - spirits who now shall never find their rest." Was he talking about the souls eaten by the sluagh or the sluagh themselves as being the spirits that shall never find rest?

This line is unambiguous. He states that the Sluagh are feral hunters that feast on souls, then he further defines the souls they feast on as ones which will never find their rest, meaning in the cleansing of his Wheel. This statement isn't inconclusive, or to be taken another way. Sluagh, [defined as] the scavengers of the Underworld. Their [Sluagh's] feral hunger has claimed countless souls - spirits [countless souls] who now shall never find their rest [because the sluagh ate them all up].

I think somewhere along the line you just mixed up the sluagh and the other remnants of Spectral and put them into one big pot of same. However, they are not. The only thing that can be questioned is whether the EG is telling Raziel the truth on this, or not. However, he really doesn't have any reason to lie here, that we know of.

He could have easily created these "pests" as they're later called by Raziel first before perfecting his archons. However, I just don't think so. Each realm has native beings to it. The Demon realm has demons. Material has all the life within it. I am sure that Spectral can have its own life forms that were native to it before the EG and before Raziel, or any vampire, human, or hylden soul ever found their way to it. Regardless if they are natural to the realm, or not, Raziel and other entities within are still separate and I see no evidence that they all eventually wind up becoming sluagh in the end. You have a vampire wraith that looks like the Grim Reaper when it becomes a wraith in Spectral; you have crab and squid-like archons floating about, made by the EG to help him harvest souls for his Wheel. You have the EG, a giant squid. And then you have these little, hairy, naked troll dudes (and some larger four-legged ones in SR2) that kind of remind me of warped cavemen, running around. I think they are clearly meant to be a totally unique and different species.

[Inquisitor Lexy]

Oh, those are archons... I seem to have been thinking those hylden-y green eyed corpse-things were those. :B It's been a while since I played that one. In that case, Raziel thinks he will become an archon - and they definitely belong to the Elder, then, and do what Raziel does to feed the EG? In that case the Elder's dislike of the sluagh makes more sense to me now, if they're eating/wasting the souls he wants, and the idea of them being 'feral'... as in not domesticated by EG, yeah. I just thought those archons were some 'upgraded' kind of sluagh in Defiance (being bright eyed and 'mouthy' too)... in the same way the EG appears to have had a make-over, and the sluagh look rather different as well... >_>

I'm not so sure we can believe the EG's talk though - he claims he created Raziel, he also claims he can destroy Raziel. Or was that just a threat to make him obedient, since it seems that he intends not to kill him ever, even after all his work is done, and his other threats are the same as what he planned for Raz in the end regardless. But then if EG didn't create him, who could have...? Is it possible Raziel created himself more than EG did? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that the Elder would create a truly indestructible servant, when so much could go wrong with that, and the EG himself thinks undying creatures are abominable.

[TheSquid]

Elder didn't sin against his own religion: Raziel is "unkillable," true, but Elder only sent Raziel into the world after making sure the boy had a clearly marked expiration date stamped onto him, like a milk carton. If things had gone according to plan, Raziel would have disappeared into the reaver and the world would have been a tidy place. As it is now, he still got locked away into the blade, but without sweeping up the mess he was supposed to attend to, and in fact he added to EG's problems. A bad investment, from the god's point of view. Elder should probably try to claim the whole thing as a tax write-off.


the Caddyshack analogy:
Spectral realm = Bushwood Country Club
Raziel = Bill Murray, the groundskeeper
Slaughs = those rascals, the Gophers, ruining the golf course experience for the guests
Elder = the bossy but adorable old man actor who was so good at acting "posh." Last name Knight or Mcknight? I believe he also starred in the sitcom Too Close for Comfort, as the... um.... straight man for Jim J. Bullock to bounce jokes off of.
Archons = stuck up rich country club members who feel entitled to stuff like other people's spirits. They make their caddy do weird stuff.

Interesting that Elder was now feeding on those Slaugh that Raziel ingested. Perhaps a new development. Maybe Elder didn't get to recover specific souls from them as a result, but Elder was likely getting a big vitamin boost from digesting the slaughs and all their residual soul bits. Soulish tastiness. If the underworld is looked at as a life factory, every generation of dying humans would lose some souls to sluagh while in transit through the underworld, which is inefficient and looks bad on the quarterly report. So Elder was using Raz to recycle those spiritual energies lost on the production line, reducing corporate waste by a few percentage points. That's why CEOs make the big bucks.

Unclear whether archons evolved on their own and got roped into service or whether they're Elder-touched sluagh who got morphed into their current shape when Elder deputized them to be his lawmen in the wild wild netherworld. If Elder morphed (made) the archons, that'd corroborate his claim that he transformed Raziel into an angel of death (and was the cause of Raz being truly deathless). However if Elder only found the archon beings in their current form and then pressed them into service, then it'd look more like he also just found Raziel at the bottom of the lake and gave him the "Luke, I'm your father" speech. I think it's fair to say Elder does at least leech spectral energies through the intestinal lining of his servants. He does this with both reaver-boy and the archons. That right there is the move of a godlike parasite, or a parasite god, whichever you prefer. Actually, you can see the difference between Raziel and other vampire wraiths, so that shows Elder's touch was transformative, and probably was what raised raziel above the level of a regular slaugh. Other god-gifts include not being tethered to his remains in the lake (other vampire wraiths are limited to haunting only the area where their bodies are found?), and never having to suffer that vulnerable state during which other spectral beings can be eaten. (the other archons also disappear when weakened, removed from battle before anyone has a chance to consume them)

I like the idea that there may have been other creatures raised like mini-me raziels when EG was doing beta testing to get ready for Soul Reaver. But slaughs seem to develop on their own, like weeds that grow in the spectral garden of their own accord, the way ecosystems form around any stable food source. Maybe past raziels would appear as more unique spectres like Ariel but without the pillar to anchor and preserve them they'd be exposed to the elements, fading and moldering away into mindless spirit-funnels when their will deteriorated. (Blood Omen was peopled with entire spirit communities, some of them weren't even Kain's kills. So there's the option of persisting and not giving yourself over to the wheel. In SR2, you can hear some souls refusing to accept they're dead, still flying around in a delusional world. This might be like digging their claws in and refusing to be drawn "into the light".)

Too Long!

[The Hylden]

(Since this is actually involving more talk of Defiance than SR1, or 2, I'm moving the thread, to avoid spoiling anything here for those who may have still not played Defiance)

Enemy classes defined:
Archons

Sluagh

Human Rvenant, Vampire Revenant, Hylden Revenant Hylden Revenant Image

Originally Posted by Inquisitor Lexy

I just thought those archons were some 'upgraded' kind of sluagh in Defiance (being bright eyed and 'mouthy' too)... in the same way the EG appears to have had a make-over, and the sluagh look rather different as well... >_>

If you look at the pics up there for the Sluagh, you'll see the new design is much toothier in Defiance, larger bug eyes, and just a large, large, huge flippin' head suddenly. Instead of looking like trollish, freakish cavemen, which is the closest description I can give them from the previous games, they suddenly look like the Spectral Realm's version of the Tasmanian Devil I love Defiance, but I am not a huge fan of some of the redesigns they made for characters, especially making them look more cartoony like this.

I'm not so sure we can believe the EG's talk though - he claims he created Raziel, he also claims he can destroy Raziel. Or was that just a threat to make him obedient, since it seems that he intends not to kill him ever, even after all his work is done, and his other threats are the same as what he planned for Raz in the end regardless. But then if EG didn't create him, who could have...? Is it possible Raziel created himself more than EG did? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that the Elder would create a truly indestructible servant, when so much could go wrong with that, and the EG himself thinks undying creatures are abominable.

I think he is correct in that he made Raziel only in that he added his influence over Raziel as he was changing into a vampire wraith. He basically added the link that Raziel has to him to send the souls he feasts on back to the EG, but that's about it. Otherwise, it's clear in Defiance by the end that Raziel cannot actually be killed by the Elder God. Raziel tells him in the Spirit Forge, "You haven't the means to kill either one of us [meaning, him and Kain]." EG's only answer, confirming this is true, is, "Ah, but you can be stopped!" lol, says it all right there. At least, that's my view on it. Destiny made Raziel, a being ironically possessing free will to defy it. Or, Raziel made himself, but he's made the EG's servant, with the tether that binds him (when weakened, and the stated soul feeding) by the EG ... as far as can be determined.

[Inquisitor Lexy]

TheSquid: You're comparing LoK to Caddyshack?

Yea I guess you're right, Raziel has a 'use by' date; after that, he's not much of an issue (that is, if things actually went according to plan). Hard to determine if the Elder is really a parasite or a detritivore. His methods are parasitic, but really he's just feeding on the dead, recycling. The whole idea of him feeding through others remotely wrecks my head a bit, though.

TheHylden: Thanks for providing those visuals. I preferred the look of the sluagh in the first SR game also. There was something rather more creepy about them and the way they skitter about than the big ones in Defiance.

It does seem the EG did not create Raziel, though he is happy to tell him many times that he did. Raz soon figures out the holes in the story though, and when he does and asks the Elder about it, the response is silence, lulz. I guess it's good that Raziel remains something of an enigma; maybe it will be explored in further games some day.

[kud13]

I'm pretty sure the "tasmanian devil" thing with the Sluagh started in SR2--they've already had 2 types of Sluagh there, no? one more SR-lke and upright, and one that was on all 4s and more dog-like.

Also, I'm pretty sure i've seen an Archon eating a weakened archon at least once.

[The Hylden]

They had , I did mention, two versions in SR2, yes. The four-legged version is called the Greater Sluagh in both the SR2 manual and Prima Stradegy guide. Like the wiki here notes, it's hard to know what their exact relationship is, but to me, they always seemed like the Sluagh's attack dogs.

However, the ones in Defiance are just the same regular Sluagh we saw in SR1 and 2, only now made to look more bug-eyed, toothy, and cartoony.



They also still walk on two legs, so they aren't the same as the SR2 Greater Sluagh variant.


As for the Archons eating one another: No, that would be impossible. The Archons do not linger as souls to be feasted upon by anything, including Raziel. When weakened enough, the flying ones (Reaper Archons) fizzle and disappear entirely with a bloodcurdling scream. The land crab-like ones (Dreadnaught Archons) break apart and melt into a puddle of bright blue goo. (which, by the way, these little factoids need to be put into the wiki ).

[Bazielim]

Originally Posted by The Hylden

which, by the way, these little factoids need to be put into the wiki

... hint hint people... lend a hand if you can - we're only as good as our editors (and their free-time)

I've added the 'death methods' to the Archons page, but I must confess, Defiance is probably going to be left until last on my personal to-do-lists, for a number of reasons; primarily because my old PC's not upto it, but also because it's most recent with most easily accessible information (you can even easily stumble into the Prima Guide online) - so I'm hoping that while we are bashing through the older titles, others could contribute to Defiance (hint hint)

[The Hylden]

Heh, you posted it word-for-word.


I should have just added it, I guess. I've been meaning to go through the wiki at some point to check tings for accuracy. My brain's been a bit foggy lately. I'm working on issues, but I do plan to give it a look-see more thoroughly one of these days

[Bazielim]

Originally Posted by The Hylden

Heh, you posted it word-for-word.

Yeah I might have been at bit lazy there... and I'm not really supposed to do that anyway; it just seemed a nice summary that could be added quickly with little fuss; I'd probably have been looking through a thesaurus otherwise

Originally Posted by The Hylden

I should have just added it, I guess. I've been meaning to go through the wiki at some point to check tings for accuracy. My brain's been a bit foggy lately. I'm working on issues, but I do plan to give it a look-see more thoroughly one of these days

No worries, any time anyone can lend a hand is appreciated Perhaps I pester too much about it, but it's only because I see the potential it has. We'll have it all down eventually

[Mr.Milky]

EG lies to Raziel in pretty much anything just to lead Raziel to follow the EG path and do EG business.

- EG is one of the oldest PARASITES of the underworld.

- EG hates Sluagh as it's been proven in the Defiance when he wants Raziel to "clean and feed".

- EG holds no power over Raziel, nor wraiths of the Underworld. He's a Tyrant. He maintains his control by either force or blackmail. We have no idea what are the reasons of the wraiths who are "feeding" EG.

- EG didn't resurrect Raziel. He claims that he did. Just like Kain claims that Raziel does have the Free will. Eventually we see that it's not the case and that Kain was shocked.

- EG didn't create the Sluagh.

---

My perspective :

The "Squid" and the "water nature" of the Underworld clearly shows the evolution progress, however in the series portrayed as something where the "undead" evolve! We can name it a evolution of the spiritual manifestation. This's proven by the "Vampire souls" who were in Underworld far too long that they "adopt", as EG states. Clearly, they're beyond EG reach and are somewhat evolved souls who were feeding far too long in the Spectral realm.

However the question is "Are they really the "vampire souls" or one of the beings who evolved over time"?! We clearly see that the souls are all equal in the SR, human or vampire. They're all green and represent orbs, mainly the food for the "bigger fish" in the underworld, but the biggest fish there is the Squid :}

Due to a nature of the EG in the series and following entire path I've come to the realization that it's imperative to question EVERYTHING that EG states, just like Raziel did. I suggest that you do the same.

[The Hylden]

Originally Posted by Mr.Milky

- EG holds no power over Raziel, nor wraiths of the Underworld. He's a Tyrant. He maintains his control by either force or blackmail. We have no idea what are the reasons of the wraiths who are "feeding" EG.

- EG didn't resurrect Raziel. He claims that he did. Just like Kain claims that Raziel does have the Free will. Eventually we see that it's not the case and that Kain was shocked.

All of this has been confirmed by the creators. The EG did raise Raiziel as his servant; Raziel's feeding on souls does feed the EG; you see the hold the EG has on Raziel when Raziel in Defiance grows too weak to go his independent way. In the beginning of the game, a direct result from the end of SR2, Raziel is transported to the EG in the Cemetery and held prisoner there, until agreeing to serve the EG again. After fighting and losing to possessed Janos, Raziel's soul is again brought before the EG in the Spirit Forge. The vampire wraiths, again, are not the Archons. The Archons are, indeed, agents of the EG, as we've covered. The vampire wraiths are not and have evolved to become eaters of souls on their own. They're beyond the reach of the EG mostly because they're still tethered to their bodies.

And the final confirmed: Raziel does have free will.

However the question is "Are they really the "vampire souls" or one of the beings who evolved over time"?! We clearly see that the souls are all equal in the SR, human or vampire. They're all green and represent orbs, mainly the food for the "bigger fish" in the underworld, but the biggest fish there is the Squid :}

Wraiths are vampire souls that have evolved. There is no misdirection here with that. It's confirmed by the instruction booklet, prima guide, and creators' own words, and you see that many are tethered to their bodies still in Spectral. Even Dumah, who had also become one, was bound to his body in Spectral.

[Mr.Milky]

May I ask where it's written that EG did really raise Raziel using essentially EG power?!

All the things that I've seen are completely illogical to what's claimed.

"Surrender, Raziel. Abandon this petty rebellion. It was I who made you. Your life had played out, and in my grace, I spared you. You are my reaper of souls. You have no other purpose, no higher destiny - just this. Accept your calling, Raziel. Let go of these vain hopes. Relinquish your will, and feed."

So, he made Raziel to be Soul Reaver? What's next, EG made the sword?

No, I doubt it completely that EG had anything to do with the mere Resurrection of the Raziel. I really do think he just watched Raziel raising up. He may have bound him by his unseen ability (a spirit link) so that the souls actually do feed EG.

Raziel doesn't have the free will from my perspective due to a fact that no "free will" is presented in the game, even in the metaphorical concept. Time paradoxes are made out. You can say that the developers TRIED to present that Raziel does have the free will, but essentially it's just whether he'll accept the blade or postpone it in the underground. His free will is just an illusion, regardless, and it's seen at the very end. No matter what path he chose, that was his destiny and it's not something that people with "free will" do. So, either a major illogicality or a major black hole regarding the series.

[The Hylden]

Originally Posted by Mr.Milky

May I ask where it's written that EG did really raise Raziel using essentially EG power?!

All the things that I've seen are completely illogical to what's claimed.

"Surrender, Raziel. Abandon this petty rebellion. It was I who made you. Your life had played out, and in my grace, I spared you. You are my reaper of souls. You have no other purpose, no higher destiny - just this. Accept your calling, Raziel. Let go of these vain hopes. Relinquish your will, and feed."

So, he made Raziel to be Soul Reaver? What's next, EG made the sword?

He made Raziel a reaver of souls. Raziel's internment into the blade later makes the blade the Soul Reaver.

To answer your question, first from the interviews:

21. Does Raziel really feed the Elder God when he sucks souls?

When Raziel has a symbiotic connection with the Elder God, every soul that he devours returns that soul to the Elder God allowing him to re-spin that soul into the wheel of life.

From the Prima Guide, which is official information offered up by CD on enemies, main characters, etc. (this point is actually said twice, which I list here; the first time in the brief history of the timeline and the second from Raziel's biography):

Like Kain before him, Raziel was saved from the brink of oblivion by a mysterious benefactor -- a preternaturally ancient god dwelling in the depths of the Abyss, who transformed Raziel into a devourer of souls, and released him back into the world to take his revenge.

The mysterious god of the underworld revived Raziel, and in resurrecting him, transformed him into a reaper of souls, a dark angel of death and retribution.

Raziel doesn't have the free will from my perspective due to a fact that no "free will" is presented in the game, even in the metaphorical concept. Time paradoxes are made out. You can say that the developers TRIED to present that Raziel does have the free will, but essentially it's just whether he'll accept the blade or postpone it in the underground. His free will is just an illusion, regardless, and it's seen at the very end. No matter what path he chose, that was his destiny and it's not something that people with "free will" do. So, either a major illogicality or a major black hole regarding the series.

He does have free will and more than choosing whether or not to enter the blade. He chose, over the pull of history itself, to spare Kain in William's Chapel. He chose to find the heart later, but not to reave Kain, thus allowing him to still exist. His actions to activate the Spirit Forge and imbue the wraith blade to become the Spirit Reaver, to heal Kain. His act of defiance that allowed him to escape the EG twice in the first place. His inability to be pinpointed in what he will do by Moebius. His very existence within the Reaver Blade later as the wraith blade, which allows for the very paradoxical situations where time can be altered. It's not due to anyone else holding the reaver. It wasn't Kain, or William, that caused the very change of their clash, reaver to reaver. It was Raziel's free will inside both swords that changed destiny.

All of this is proof of Raziel's free will.

20. If the Hylden are exempt from the wheel, do they have free will, like Raziel, Kain and the Elder God? And can the be seen through time or not?

They are exempt from the Elder God's wheel of life due to their dislocation in a different dimension but not from the rules of fate and predetermined events that Raziel has been freed from with his remaking into the world. With their technological advancement it is very probable that they can glimpse at future events.

[Mr.Milky]

When Raziel has a symbiotic connection with the Elder God, every soul that he devours returns that soul to the Elder God allowing him to re-spin that soul into the wheel of life.

That proves only that they have a connection, just like telepathy. Not that he really did used his power to raise Raziel. And, on further notice we don't "see" the fact that he really did raise Raziel. There's no proof in game.

Like Kain before him, Raziel was saved from the brink of oblivion by a mysterious benefactor -- a preternaturally ancient god dwelling in the depths of the Abyss, who transformed Raziel into a devourer of souls, and released him back into the world to take his revenge.

The mysterious god of the underworld revived Raziel, and in resurrecting him, transformed him into a reaper of souls, a dark angel of death and retribution.

And this is a "presentation" of the plot with this in mind. Presentably, the story as seen by player who plays for the first time.
Just like when we say that Kain really did place Raziel into the abyss because of jealousy. We all know that's not the truth.

Having in mind how Raziel had a pretty bigger "destiny" whether EG really did raise him or just "gave ability to feed" him a bit is a question.
I need more sustainable proof from the developers of the game where it says that EG really did used his own power to raise Raziel from "death".

I'm following this concept and in my defense I have to say that EG lied Raziel or was silent when Raziel was pointing out towards the truth.

""I wonder old one did you truly resurrect me or were you simply there when I awakened from my torment in the abyss? I suspect you found me merely convenient- dropped into your lair by Kain, indestructible for some reason, a durable and gullible tool for you to manipulate."

EG "I am here and everywhere"
Kain : "False god"

---

As for "Free Will", we're not seeing it in the same way. You see it as an ability to freely chose while I see it as an ability to chose all making it really "free" in that regard.
However, you have to realize that all the metaphorical and poetic content in the games made me to question everything, even things which are taken for granted. In fact I've seen some things which were overlooked by the developers corresponding to the philosophic concept. I do think that even the developers can make a mistake regarding the content, especially when it's about philosophic content...

[Bazielim]

Originally Posted by Mr.Milky

That proves only that they have a connection, just like telepathy. Not that he really did used his power to raise Raziel. And, on further notice we don't "see" the fact that he really did raise Raziel. There's no proof in game.

sigh, here is the Defiance Designer Diary with this direct quote from Amy

"Raziel was once first among Kain's vampire lieutenants but was condemned to the Abyss for an apparent transgression against his master. He evolved beyond Kain, developing a pair of leathery wings. Kain tore the wings from Raziel's back, and ordered his fellow lieutenants to throw his broken body into the vortex at the center of the Lake of the Dead.

The descent into the watery maelstrom should have destroyed him, but instead Raziel was transformed. Resurrected by a mysterious ancient god in the depths of the Abyss, Raziel emerged to wreak his vengeance upon Kain and his former brethren--no longer as a vampire but now as a reaper of souls."

along with this in the developer interviews

"Q: Did raziel just fall into the Elders Lair? And like adapt somehow to his
surroundings?
A: Do you mean was Raziel correct in his accusations in his final confrontation with the Elder God? When people hear the dialogue, it's important to remember that just because a character says something, it isn't necessarily correct. What you're hearing is that character's opinion and subjective interpretation. So if you mean: "did Raziel just drop into the EG's lap by coincidence, or did the EG have something to do with his resurrection?" Let's just say Raziel doesn't know everything yet, and neither do we."

Which probably implies that Raziel's accusations about the Elder there are incorrect.

...And if you read the Story section labelled as "Condemned" in the manuals of SR2 and Defiance, it says it right there.

...Surely we don't have LoK fans that theorise things before checking official info?

[Mr.Milky]

Raziel was once first among Kain's vampire lieutenants but was condemned to the Abyss for an apparent transgression against his master.

Resurrected by a mysterious ancient god in the depths of the Abyss, Raziel emerged to wreak his vengeance upon Kain and his former brethren--no longer as a vampire but now as a reaper of souls.

Yes, describing the SR1 events in regards of the player vision. We all know that Vampires aren't really his "brethren" nor that Kain really did "punish" Raziel because of the transgression.

Same could be said for the next thing because there's no apparent evidence for the actual happening.

Much stronger argument needed.

When people hear the dialogue, it's important to remember that just because a character says something, it isn't necessarily correct. What you're hearing is that character's opinion and subjective interpretation. So if you mean: "did Raziel just drop into the EG's lap by coincidence, or did the EG have something to do with his resurrection?" Let's just say Raziel doesn't know everything yet, and neither do we."

And this just proves my statements.

---

I also must notice that I was fully aware of such things on the web, however they're not good enough. So, please, don't take me so lightly next time.

[The Hylden]

Originally Posted by Bazielim

...Surely we don't have LoK fans that theorise things before checking official info?

I am sure there are tons that don't even know still about all of the official info. I wouldn't begrudge any fan for enjoying the series and coming to their own conclusions. However, if they come along and post a theory here which has already been shown cannot be by the official material, then pointing that out to them is no problem. When it becomes strange is when even presented with the official sources that state what canonically cannot be within the series, a fan still denies it -- and in this case, even restates that the official word to the contrary only reaffirms their own theory's position -- then that is either denial, or trolling. Period.

With that said, let's all here remember not to laugh off each others' ideas and statements, even though through debate, sometimes emotions can spark.

Originally Posted by Mr.Milky

Much stronger argument needed.

Much stronger than the official statements by the developers and creators of the very storyline that you're playing through?? No, there is no stronger evidence needed. The developers, writers, and creators of the franchise have the final say and they have done so.

And this just proves my statements.

It might have been used to, if this were still 2002... This statement was from an interview with Amy Hennig that took place after Soul Reaver 2, when this was still a question of whether or not the EG was lying to Raziel about resurrecting him.

However, the rest of the official statements provided on the matter that I and Bazielim have offered are from after Defiance came out and the developers answered this once and for all. They left no ambiguity. The prima guide and what Bazielim showed from the developers' own blog are the same statements, because they were written by them. Raziel was raised by the Elder God, like the archons shown in Defiance. Raziel's own soul -- his will -- made him different and uncontrollable, but he was raised by the EG and the EG was not, in fact, lying about this. The reason why they answered this so succinctly I am sure is because this was Raziel's final outing, so there was no reason to keep it ambiguous any longer.

Now, you can think whatever you wish, but that will not change the official word on the matter and the developers have the final say.

I also must notice that I was fully aware of such things on the web, however they're not good enough. So, please, don't take me so lightly next time.

If you already knew of these interviews with, again, the very developers of the series, and you chose to ignore them for your own theorems, then there is no more logic in explaining these points to you.

[Mr.Milky]

I don't see "EG raised Raziel" official statement.

I see a sentence that Each entity in the LoK saga is actually having their own truths.

Arguments in my defence

- No clear "raising" of the Raziel. He just stood up and it appeared as if he couldn't move after 500 years of agony in the Abyss. All that we see is that EG was waiting down there.
- No clear statement regarding the "fact" that EG actually did raise Raziel. The point of the talk with the developers was to introduce the series trough the chronologicalities, not to describe every little aspect that's left either as an fan candy or spmethin special for those who're dedicated.
-

Resurrected by a mysterious ancient god in the depths of the Abyss, Raziel emerged to wreak his vengeance upon Kain and his former brethren--no longer as a vampire but now as a reaper of souls.

Is EG really a "mysterious GOD"? Is he really "spinning the wheel" or is he just linking with wraths to do his bidding?!
The point that many people so bluntly remove is that EG is a major trickster and he uses Nosgoths entities for his sake.
His motives are of that just as any other - thirst or hunger. Thirst for power or hunger for souls. Or both!
Taken from the perspective that he just migth be the oldest "parasite" of the underworld who took so many innocent souls that he literally became "master" of the Underworld, quite possibly owning pretty much any power within it.

EG Said

Use your hatred to reave their souls... I can make it possible. Become my soul reaver, my angel of death...

And don't tell me how EG was all about the truth, marryland and flying bees who puke rainbows because that's not the case with him.

---

If you can find a concise answer, direct and that's not used to portray a chronologicality, I'll apretiate it.

Also, that Raziel is prone to "his truth", well, that's impossible because Raziel is THE KEY to the truth and from the poetic and metaphoric stand I urge people to realize that Raziel's always the "rigth hand" of Kain. And that "rigth hand" made him to realize the truth. Raziel is a synonim for the truth in the game! That was the point all along! That's why he's the only one with "free will" from the poetic standpoint and he opened the eyes of Kain.

EG clearly ISN'T GOD as stated in the quote from the developer and that quote PROVES NOTHING regarding the actual truth. EG was seriously injured by the Kain who was, finally, free of the blindness and from the poetic standpoint he saw the corruption of Nosgoth. At that precise moment of HIS DESTINY he started to CLEAN the coruption with the TOOL OF CLEANING a.k.a the Soul Reaver, his rigth hand. It basically all makes sense without much involvement. And it places EG into a questionable manner because he clearly lied about everything all along, or used truth when he needed it to portray to bid his own needs.

So, yes, I do need much stronger argument. The statements provided here are invalid as facts because EG was plotting against Nosgoth.

[The Hylden]

21. Does Raziel really feed the Elder God when he sucks souls?

When Raziel has a symbiotic connection with the Elder God, every soul that he devours returns that soul to the Elder God allowing him to re-spin that soul into the wheel of life.

20. If the Hylden are exempt from the wheel, do they have free will, like Raziel, Kain and the Elder God? And can the be seen through time or not?

They are exempt from the Elder God's wheel of life due to their dislocation in a different dimension but not from the rules of fate and predetermined events that Raziel has been freed from with his remaking into the world. With their technological advancement it is very probable that they can glimpse at future events.

The developers A: list him as a God; B, list him as the owner of and the master of the Wheel of Fate, Wheel of Life. He re-spins souls into it, just as he claims. Raziel feeds him to do so, just as he claims.

Like Kain before him, Raziel was saved from the brink of oblivion by a mysterious benefactor -- a preternaturally ancient god dwelling in the depths of the Abyss, who transformed Raziel into a devourer of souls, and released him back into the world to take his revenge.

The mysterious god of the underworld revived Raziel, and in resurrecting him, transformed him into a reaper of souls, a dark angel of death and retribution.

The Elder God is a fan name given to the entity that is this preternatural God of the Abyss, who before the fans dubbed him this, he was simply known as this mysterious benefactor of Raziel's. The Elder God and this whom they are referring to here, ARE THE SAME BEING. He raised Raziel to be his reaver of souls, just as he claimed.


This has been answered concretely, and succinctly by the creators. While the EG has his own agendas, and lies and fronts about his hold over Raziel, his reach, his ability to know all, he didn't lie about these things listed above.

The case has been closed, until such time as a monumental 180 happens by the very developers who took the time to answer these questions for loving fans, such as yourself. If you cannot, and will not, accept their word, then there is completely nothing left to discuss here.

[Strands Of Night]

I think you overlooked something very important, Mr.Milky.

"Raziel was once first among Kain's vampire lieutenants but was condemned to the Abyss for an apparent transgression against his master. He evolved beyond Kain, developing a pair of leathery wings. Kain tore the wings from Raziel's back, and ordered his fellow lieutenants to throw his broken body into the vortex at the center of the Lake of the Dead.


The descent into the watery maelstrom should have destroyed him, but instead Raziel was transformed. Resurrected by a mysterious ancient god in the depths of the Abyss, Raziel emerged to wreak his vengeance upon Kain and his former brethren--no longer as a vampire but now as a reaper of souls."

This is not an in game quote, or a speculation. This is a quote from Amy Hennig. Director and Writer for Soul Reaver. It is not a characters view of the truth. It is the Director's iteration of the plot!

As far as EG not being a god, it isn't until Defiance that we truly learn that he is a parasite, not a god. (at least not a god in a divine sense.) We may be suspicious, but it isn't confirmed until Defiance.

But what is a god really? My personal beliefs aside, Jesus Christ is worshiped as a god, history can prove he was a man, but not divine. Buddha was also a man, now worshiped as a god. Ancient kings and emperors were proclaimed as gods and worshiped...

It would appear that a god is an entity worshiped, which may or may not have true divine powers. I don't think this makes them any less godly. Ask their believers.

The Elder God had the entire race of Ancients worshiping him. Waging war in his name, no less! EG is as close to a god as anything I have previously described. Sure, we have seen his ugly side, and his flaws. And we have seen that he can be hurt. But so can the gods I have previously mentioned.

The whole god thing is my perspective. You can argue it. But please, don't argue Amy Hennig, it's upsetting, and disrespectful to try contradicting the woman in charge of the story.

*Edit: TheHylden clearly points out in his previous post that EG is factually a God. (With divine powers. Spinning souls back into the wheel, raising/creating servants, and his ability to be present and informed of the timeline at all times.) So I guess it cannot be argued after all.

Strange, to know I have read all that before but I never picked out the fact that EG is a god. I would argue that he was, but I totally missed the (maybe too obvious) facts you pointed out. Thanks Hylden!

So how does one kill a god? Or do you beat it into a coma so it still functions, and just cannot plot against you anymore? lol*