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Old 04-23-2012, 11:01 PM
Al99 Al99 is offline
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Default Did Vorador know that the Circle of Nine were guardians of The Pillars ?

Hi everyone,

I have only played BloodOmen 1, Soul Reaver, and began playing Soul Reaver 2 when I encountered a strange inconsistency or simply lack of knowledge of one of the main characters.

SR 2 takes place (among other eras) during the murder of the Circle of Nine.
As seen in BO1, it was the vampire Vorador who killed them.

And yet, when meeting Raziel during his journey in SR2, Vorador asks him if he is the one resposible for the corruption of The Pillars, as he was not aware of the connection between the Circle of Nine and The Pillars themselves...
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Al99 View Post
Hi everyone,

I have only played BloodOmen 1, Soul Reaver, and began playing Soul Reaver 2 when I encountered a strange inconsistency or simply lack of knowledge of one of the main characters.

SR 2 takes place (among other eras) during the murder of the Circle of Nine.
As seen in BO1, it was the vampire Vorador who killed them.

And yet, when meeting Raziel during his journey in SR2, Vorador asks him if he is the one resposible for the corruption of The Pillars, as he was not aware of the connection between the Circle of Nine and The Pillars themselves...
Yes my friend, remember that Vorador was alive (in fact he was abducted as a human and made a vampire) during the Ancient/Hylden War... and he forged The Reaver at the time of this war - We all know that the war ended when the Hylden cursed the Vampires and then they were locked in the Demon Realm by the Pillars... all of these happened whilst Vorador was alive so yeah...

Vorador kills the human Circle of Nine because (or most probably) he believes he are useless as Guardians of the Pillars, but he did not know that the corruption was caused by Ariel's murdering and he was not aware of Mortanius's plan either; that's why he asked Raziel if he was the cause (Raziel simply arrived there at the wrong moment)
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:44 AM
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Ardeth Silvereni Ardeth Silvereni is offline
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I'm sorry, I have to disagree with Ber on a few points regarding Vorador's history.



Vorador either remembered the war between the winged Ancients and their adversaries (and the raising of the Pillars) firsthand or the events were only recent history when he was born. This war was illustrated in murals, fairly early in SR2. As a human, he might not have known all the details of the Pillars/Guardian relationship to begin with, but he had plenty of time to learn. The old Silicon Knights Blood Omen FAQ and the Blood Omen strategy guide present Vorador as one of the best-informed individuals in Nosgoth - the guide says he had 'an excellent insight' into Nosgoth's history, gained by 'reading his victims' thoughts as he drained their blood'.

He lived a long time as a vampire before going after the Circle of Nine - plenty long enough to learn who and what they were. He attacked them in an act of revenge as they instigated and supported the Sarafan's 'Vampire Purge'.



So, I reckon Vorador knew about the Circle of Nine and their role. He probably knew they would be replaced, and didn't care about the temporary consequences of his massacre on the Pillars and the world. The Corruption of the Pillars was something beyond his experience, however. That's why he quizzed Raziel, who just happened to be there at the time. It was a serious, unnatural occurrence Vorador hadn't seen before and it bothered him. He knew how important the Pillars were and he wanted an explanation. Killing Guardians was one thing - damaging the Pillars themselves was quite another... The Pillars couldn't be replaced.

Last edited by Ardeth Silvereni; 04-24-2012 at 10:39 PM. Reason: Wrapping up anything after the first part of SR2 in spoiler tags - sorry!
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:13 AM
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I was sort of under the impression Vorador "snapped" when the Sarafan were bold enough to kill his sire, and murdered as many as he could find in a moment of madness. He could have broken in at any time and done this, and he had the bitterness to apparently, but he didn't... he must have done it in rage and grief for Janos' death.

And if he did it in a moment of deliberate passion, then he probably knew plenty but still did it anyway.
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:54 AM
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I don't think he snapped, so much as this was a calculated act. It was the final straw that made him enact revenge, though.

I beleive the original question was asked here because Al99 thought that the Guardians Vorador killed in the past were what caused the Pillards to become corrupted and didn't know that they were in the past and different Guardians than the ones currently occupying the Pillars when Raziel is talking to Vorador in SR2.

As Ardreth said, the Circle of Nine were funding the Sarafan -- the very ones that just slaughtered his sire and took his heart back with them as a trophy. Vorador purposefully and very calculatingly entered their keep and specifically targeted them. In probably a tactic that can best be summed up as "kill the head and the beast will fall," he figured to kill the Circle so that the funding for the Sarafan would stop, and thus, their supplies and suport would stop. The Circle was also defenseless against Vorador, something that never has been explained (but Amy Hennig said might be at some time). If Vorador had the knowledge to thwart their magic, he certainly knew a lot about his foes and used his knowledge against them in battle.

As stated, though, this would not cause the Pillars to become corrupted, but to simply choose a new Guardian for each slain when a suitable newborn was born to fill the role. The Pillars, themselves, would still be pure and in working order. What happens 500 years later, when the Dark Entity/Unspoken (found later to be the Hylden Lord) possesses Mortanius to murder Ariel (who's the replacement Balance Guardian for the one Vorador killed 500 years earlier, remember), and Nupraptor (the replacement Guardian of the Mind for the one that died at Vorador's hands) finds her corpse, then goes mad and infects the rest of the Circle with madness ... this has never happened and is not something that would have by Vorador's actions. He's right to be suspicious as to what could have caused it.

(*Note, given it's been 500 years, those replacements might actually be a couple of generations beyond that, if any Guardian had died for any other reason since replacing the ones that Vorador slew, but we aren't privy to any other Guardian dying, other than by his hands back then)

(**Note For Al99, Vorador killed all but three of the Guardians 500 years before the time Raziel meets him. Those that survived were Malek, Mortanius, and Moebius)

Last edited by The Hylden; 04-25-2012 at 04:21 AM.
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Old 04-24-2012, 01:00 PM
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Oh, yes - he knew exactly who to target to hurt the Sarafan the most - their employers/sponsors, and apparently the death of most of Circle/the Inquisitors and the disgrace of Malek (whenever that happened) was pretty much the 'end' of the good times for the Sarafan... so while I meant he 'snapped' he did, but not in a nutty freak-out, his actions pretty much brought the Sarafan 'down' at that point, masterfully. I agree with you, I think it was the final straw for him, but... he still could have done this at any time, considering the Sarafan were slowly/surely murdering everyone he cared about, and he only murdered the people he thought most influentially responsible for it?
It seems strange he would wait till then to bust in and kill them if he was not emotionally driven at least a bit, and why did he not do it sooner? (But I know this part was added to SR2 as a nod to the other games, so... I guess I shouldn't read too much into the timing of it). :9

Oh, question! You brought up the generations of guardians thing... does anyone know how long a human guardian generally lives? Or how old Moebius actually is? Do they live much longer than normal people?

Last edited by Inquisitor Lexy; 04-25-2012 at 04:39 AM.
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Old 04-24-2012, 01:45 PM
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The human Circle members are immortal/ageless as a result of their guardianship; they don't expire from old age, and they no longer seem to age aesthetically after a certain point.


Last edited by Aevum; 04-25-2012 at 03:26 AM. Reason: Whoops - spoiler tags added, with my sincere apologies.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:49 PM
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Um, the original poster said that he's only played Blood Omen and Soul Reaver. You guys are giving spoilers like crazy. You could have answered this much more simply and without giving everything away.
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Old 04-25-2012, 04:18 AM
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Playing Blood Omen, itself, means nothing that's been stated has been a spoiler (except that now it's retconed to be 500 years difference from Vorador slaying the Circle to when he meets Raziel, instead of being 5,000 years, as stated in Blood Omen 1), save the minor talk of a mural in Defiance, and one other thing. However, Al99 has also continued into the portion of SR2 that restates a lot of this as well. He's just wanting clarification, which has now been given.

Points that are in BO1/the beginning of SR2 also:

Janos Audron was slain by the Sarafan, where they took his still-beating heart and christened it The Heart of Darkness

Vorador slaughters six of the nine Guardians, leaving Malek, Mortanius, and Moebius. This happened in the past (5,000 years in BO1, changed to 500 in SR2, but that number change, alone, yes, is not known yet -- negligible).

Ariel is killed by Mortanius, who is possessed by the Dark Entity/Unspoken (knowing it's the Hylden Lord won't mean much to him now, but sure, that's a minor spoiler).

Any minor spoilers have been tagged. I'm sure the bulk of the story that will wow him is still going to do so (the real good stuff in SR2's ending ).
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:33 PM
Pillar of Balance Pillar of Balance is offline
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Originally Posted by Corlagon View Post
The human Circle members are immortal/ageless as a result of their guardianship; they don't expire from old age, and they no longer seem to age aesthetically after a certain point.

I can understand the theory to that. But I personally don't buy that the Human Circle is Immortal for a few reasons. The only Three that survive the 500 years between Vorador's attack and Kain's campain are Malek, Mortanius and Moebius.

Malek was turned into a walking suit of Armor bound to his soul as punishment for the Vorador attack, so he was at that point no longer human.

Mortanius is the Guardian of the Pillar of Death, and a Necromancer, so HE has control over death itself, in which case, the rules of life and death do not apply to him

Moebius is the Guardian of the Pillar of Time, and is the Time Streamer, meaning that he has control over the passage of time, possibly even over his metaphysical form (Alternatively, because he has lived and served as a pawn of the Elder God for what is implied to be from the start, the Elder God restores him when he dies, and probably halts him from dying of natural causes)

None of those three are what you could conceive to be regular Humans. The others of the Circle it is not so clear about.

I thought the entire premise of returning the Pillars to Vampire Guardianship is because the seal that is holding the Hylden banished is weakened by the MORTALITY of humans. The seal has been weakened due to generations of the Circle being Mortal, that is why originally they were taken and turned to vampires when identified as guardians.

If anything, there is more in the Narrative and plot of LoK to imply that normally the Circle are VERY Mortal indeed.
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Old 05-25-2012, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Pillar of Balance View Post
I thought the entire premise of returning the Pillars to Vampire Guardianship is because the seal that is holding the Hylden banished is weakened by the MORTALITY of humans. The seal has been weakened due to generations of the Circle being Mortal, that is why originally they were taken and turned to vampires when identified as guardians.

If anything, there is more in the Narrative and plot of LoK to imply that normally the Circle are VERY Mortal indeed.
Not according to Janos, who is the only source of why the Pillars cannot serve in human hands. According to him, humans "are not competent to serve" and "are easily corruptible and vulnerable to manipulation."



However, you're right in your statement that, possibly, the rest of the Circle was not as sustained by the Pillars as the three M's. We don't know. Nothing is ever stated to confirm just how much longevity the Pillars grant their Guardians. it would make sense that they eventually expire, given that some members are so physically old-looking, including Nupraptor and Moebius. One thing to note against this, though, would be the divide this would create within the Circle already, if some members lived loner than others. I mean, if the Balance Guardians, of all of them, can't even live as long as the Time Guardian, or the Death Guardian, it's rather unfair. Knowing Moebius, he probably would have acted at the leader of the Circle, and tried to usurp the Balance's position with his own influence, even before the corruption infected the Circle in the time of BO1.

Hm, I think personally I still believe that the Pillars sustained all of the Guardians, and that they only could die by unnatural causes, to be replaced at such time by a worthy successor. Unnatural, of course, meaning accidents (bride collapses; giant pillar of stone/giant rock falls squashes a Guardian one day...) and enemies murdering them.
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Old 05-26-2012, 04:55 AM
KainFanatic192 KainFanatic192 is offline
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Did Moebius know, in advance, that Vorador was going to target and eventually kill most of the Circle Of Nine or was he completely unprepared for it?
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Old 05-26-2012, 08:33 AM
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Oh, on the contrary; he both knew and was completely prepared for it.

Moebius' only goal then was to corner Raziel to pick up the Reaver and by extension, to become the Soul Reaver later. All else that happened then is inconsequential to him. Not only does he keep Malek purposefully there when the Circle is under attack, knowing that this will leave them completely vulnerable all so that Raziel cannot escape in time, if you notice as soon as the first cry out by the Guardians for "MALEK!!" to come and save them, Moebius' reaction is to look up with a satisfied, sadistic, snearing smirk. That's not the look of someone caught unawares.

Even before Nupraptor's madness infected Moebius, he was always a conniving, self-serving manipulator, and this is the prime example. Hundreds of years later, under the guise of the Oracle of Nosgoth in BO1, Moebius tells Kain Malek's vanity was the reason he failed to protect the Circle of Nine back then. However, you see here that Malek was doing his duty, and was totally concerned for the rest and wanted to save them, but Moebius ordered him not to. Moebius sacrificed him and the rest of the Circle. They would be replaced anyway, so no big deal in his mind (save Malek, whose fate would be his very soul fused to his own armor).

As Moebius stated first off to Raziel in the beginning of Soul Reaver 2: "All great movements require a few martyrs..."
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Old 05-28-2012, 07:37 AM
KainFanatic192 KainFanatic192 is offline
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Originally Posted by The Hylden View Post
Oh, on the contrary; he both knew and was completely prepared for it.

Moebius' only goal then was to corner Raziel to pick up the Reaver and by extension, to become the Soul Reaver later. All else that happened then is inconsequential to him. Not only does he keep Malek purposefully there when the Circle is under attack, knowing that this will leave them completely vulnerable all so that Raziel cannot escape in time, if you notice as soon as the first cry out by the Guardians for "MALEK!!" to come and save them, Moebius' reaction is to look up with a satisfied, sadistic, snearing smirk. That's not the look of someone caught unawares.

Even before Nupraptor's madness infected Moebius, he was always a conniving, self-serving manipulator, and this is the prime example. Hundreds of years later, under the guise of the Oracle of Nosgoth in BO1, Moebius tells Kain Malek's vanity was the reason he failed to protect the Circle of Nine back then. However, you see here that Malek was doing his duty, and was totally concerned for the rest and wanted to save them, but Moebius ordered him not to. Moebius sacrificed him and the rest of the Circle. They would be replaced anyway, so no big deal in his mind (save Malek, whose fate would be his very soul fused to his own armor).

As Moebius stated first off to Raziel in the beginning of Soul Reaver 2: "All great movements require a few martyrs..."
Moebius pretty much said a statement that was nothing more but a dark omen of events that would happen later on.

In any case, that's pretty much cruel, but that's why we love Moebius as a villain; he is nothing but a selfish man looking after himself and the god that he serves. It's just too funny though; he literally had no clue on who the Elder God really turned out to be; not just a squid, but one of the key players that pulled the strings without Moebius knowing it, even if he was the time streamer. It's too bad about Malik though; he was doing his job, like he was supposed to, yet the damage was done and he got punished for it, all the while Moebius not caring for what happened to him as long as he has served his purpose to him.
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Old 05-28-2012, 02:26 PM
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Yup, Malek's a pretty tragic character in the end. Kain's disdain form him even in Defiance is understandable, but Malek was even more used than Kain was, it turns out.
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Old 05-30-2012, 07:13 AM
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I think the question is not whether or not did he know, but if he actually cared. I mean, why should he? Those pathetic human bastards were given power by his masters' creations and they first rebel and then commit genocide against the very beings who empowered them. Vorador, understandably, wasn't very happy about it. I guess he was holding back because Janos told him to. But now, when Janos was murdered, he just said "Screw it!" and went to avenge his master by severely damaging the Circle and killing those of the traitors he could find and mocking their good for nothing protector in process.

As for his question about whether or not Raziel is the cause of corrpution - it was a valid one. Vorador knew what role did Pillars serve in Hylden's banishment, he knew what Hylden looked like. And then BOOM! - the Pillars (which, I remind you, are lock on the Hylden's prison gate) are corrupted and weak and there's a Hylden-like being walking around. Suspicious.
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Old 05-31-2012, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Count D View Post
I think the question is not whether or not did he know, but if he actually cared. I mean, why should he? Those pathetic human bastards were given power by his masters' creations and they first rebel and then commit genocide against the very beings who empowered them. Vorador, understandably, wasn't very happy about it. I guess he was holding back because Janos told him to. But now, when Janos was murdered, he just said "Screw it!" and went to avenge his master by severely damaging the Circle and killing those of the traitors he could find and mocking their good for nothing protector in process.

As for his question about whether or not Raziel is the cause of corrpution - it was a valid one. Vorador knew what role did Pillars serve in Hylden's banishment, he knew what Hylden looked like. And then BOOM! - the Pillars (which, I remind you, are lock on the Hylden's prison gate) are corrupted and weak and there's a Hylden-like being walking around. Suspicious.
As it turned out, I don't think he was ever a Hylden in the first place. He was really Kain's right-hand man all along, apparently given this idea that he was supposed to kill Kain for the good of things when it was really nothing but a trap (a mistake that Moebius made in the end, as in thinking they were both dead in the end) I don't believe Raziel was ever the cause of the corruption that sweeped into the Pillars though...in fact, I always felt that was Nupraptor's fault. Since he found his beloved's corpse, seeing the love of his life dead drove him to madness and infected all of his allies, including Kain. Plus, we didn't meet Raziel until Soul Reaver 1 and later on, the only thing Raziel's Seraphan form was responsible for was killing Janos and stealing his black heart, then eventually ending up being killed by the current Raziel. Thus, I believe that while Raziel played a major part in Nosgoth's history, the corruption wasn't done by his hand, in my opinion.

And now that I think of it, it wasn't just Nupraptor's fault, it was also the Hylden Lord who played a part in creating that corruption by inhabiting Mortainious's body and having him murder Ariel to kick off the whole catastrophe.
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Old 05-31-2012, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by The Hylden View Post
Yup, Malek's a pretty tragic character in the end. Kain's disdain form him even in Defiance is understandable, but Malek was even more used than Kain was, it turns out.
So you think that Malek is perfect for the role of the tragic hero, the one who tried to do the right thing in the end, but wasn't able to stop Vorador in time and paid the price?
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Al99 View Post
As seen in BO1, it was the vampire Vorador who killed them.
He didn't kill "all" of them, respectfully. Quite honestly I even doubt that it mattered at the moment when Janos, the Guardian of the "10th pillar", was down.

The world was unbalanced with the human successors to the pillars. The only one who sustained them was quite possibly the Janos Audron with his mere presence.

Ofc, it's all just a high speculation, but I assume it's the correct one. :}

The Death of one Human guardian of Circle is of no great value because there's going to be a new one chosen immediately.

That's why the pillars were corrupted by the influence of the EG who quite possibly destroyed them at the lower parts. Actions contributed, it all fell apart.
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Old 06-06-2012, 06:56 PM
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I've been image capturing recently and I've got some images that might be relevant here:
This is Moebius's initial reaction to the screams of the Circle
(click image to enlarge)
Which quickly changes to this expression before Malek turns around.

(click image to enlarge)
Moebius doesn't hide that smirk from Raz - he's almost stabbing Malek in the back with that.
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