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  #51  
Old 04-13-2012, 07:38 AM
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Supposedly Raz is the 'champion of free will', and a proud one at that; I'd say it was never going to go smooth if he was, and there was this thing being worshipped as a god, forcing him to be its 'angel of death', and there it is telling him he should do this and he must do that, and from Raz's perspective leaving out crucial information... and eventually threatening him. By the end he's calling it the enemy.

And maybe EG isn't the enemy, just this necessary thing... I was surprised myself that Raziel suddenly decides he's a big fat parasite. Then again, Raz is paranoid and pretty damn butthurt by the time EG became his 'benefactor', blames him for the physical state he's in and forcing him to live in his "vile carcass", and EG starts getting snippy in SR2 when Raziel doesn't do his bidding. Plus, Raz does seem pretty repulsed by its true appearance. Reminds me of the moment when he can't believe that the vampires roaming around the derelict Nosgoth could possibly be any relation to him and his brothers. Seems he would expect a real 'god' to look a little more aesthetically pleasing, he even insults the EG directly about its countenance more than once.

Gods and things with free will just don't mix, IMO.
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  #52  
Old 04-13-2012, 09:09 AM
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Well, the thing about Raziel being all uppity in SR2--you have to realize he's feeling way out of his league. after all, he's just discovered that Moebius is working for EG--and he's had several ages worth of stories from Kain about how Moebius couldn't be trusted.

on top of that, he's felt the time displacement, when he fixed the reaver, and had his own wraith blade wake up. and then he sees very much human-like vampires being slaughtered with utmost cruelty and 0 mercy, nad he gets his first glance at the murals of the Ancients, suggesting there's somehting more to the story, somehting more to HIM--and he doesn't know what to do.

don't forget, Raziel up till that point had a simple life. when Sarafan-obey the Circle, kill bad vampires. When vamp-Obey Kain. kill human cattle. When Wraith-obey EG, kill former siblings.
nice, easy, black and white, perfect exercise for his righteousness.

and then he goes back in time, and discovers the world is complicated, and he's in way over his head. Instead of getting his righteous vengeance on Kain, he's now supposed to be the saviour of Nosgoth. You'd think the helpful, wise EG would've mentioned somehtign about that? naturally, he doesn't know who to trust, he lashes out against just about everyone--recall what a jerk he was to Ariel!
The only person to whom Raziel didn't speak with sarcasm or condescension to in SR2 was Janos. and the reason for that was because of the way Janos first spoke to him + the way Raziel has built up the ancients in his own head.
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  #53  
Old 04-13-2012, 09:31 AM
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All good points, both of you. And this:

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Originally Posted by kud13 View Post
The only person to whom Raziel didn't speak with sarcasm or condescension to in SR2 was Janos. and the reason for that was because of the way Janos first spoke to him + the way Raziel has built up the ancients in his own head.
Raziel does the same thing to Janos as his change in his treatment of the EG, from one game to the next. In Defiance, when he raised Janos, instead of this reverence, he greets him with accusations, impatience, and demands for answers. We see the reasons for this change of thinking, of course. Just noting the similarity. You might say the way he first trusts and then lashes out at both of these new benevolent masters is much the same way he was under Kain. He was Kain's most trusted right hand, as he was for the EG, as he became for Janos, once he thought that Janos needed to be avenged by his former self's actions... And then, once he realizes that this trust is misplaced, he snaps back at them. Understandably, but there is something to be said for this in Raziel's continuous cyclical nature.

He did, finally, break the cycle, in choosing to come back to Kain.
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  #54  
Old 04-13-2012, 09:33 AM
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True... must be near impossible to be straightforwardly 'righteous' unless you are viewing things simply and choosing to see only 'half the story' as it were. In SR1 it's all very simple, in SR2 he's seeing the Ancients' view (or just discovering it), starting slowly to see Kain's POV, the EG's, the vampires of the time, Sarafan... pretty overwhelming for someone that's comfortable with his own narrow view of things.

EG was a bit too honest with him in SR2. >_> It could have gained more trust by letting him think he still continued to have his own purposes, as the EG sort of did in SR1 by encouraging Raziel to remember his own feelings. But you guys are right, Moebius is the big reason not to trust EG. And the EG admitted he thought Moebius was one groovy servant. If the EG really could 'see into Raziel's heart' as he claimed, he could have chosen his words better.
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  #55  
Old 04-13-2012, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by The Hylden View Post
the last thing the EG says right before Raziel steps through the portal after Kain in the Chronoplast Chamber is, "Be warned, Raziel - once you cross this threshold, you are beyond my influence... " Basically saying I won't be able to help, or contact you again. Yet, Raziel finds him almost immediately in the past, so... Perhaps that leads to Raziel feeling, ok, you lied to me
Here's one guess for why Raziel is beyond Elder's influence in the past:
Elder is smaller in the past, and gradually grows larger. Maybe his god-power grows too as the years go by and not just his physical size. Perhaps part of the reason Raziel's corpse stays dormant in the lake for 500 years is Elder didn't yet have the god-strength to raise the wraith until the time when we saw Raz finally awaken. Then, in that era, Elder was able to manipulate Raz beautifully, as if he had the wraith under a powerful vampire charm spell.... because the god was fully grown then and able to maintain control over his creation?!?!? But then, when Raz entered the time portal, he was sent back to an era when the god's power base was not yet fully built up, and then Raz is suddenly more free to "notice" things like 'Hey, you're a big evil squid!' (Or, like kud said, Raziel finding out about vampire history would start to influence him more than EG).


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Originally Posted by kud13 View Post
except in the first game, you didn't "sneak up" on Moebius. you wandered into Vorador's execution. also, no proof Pillars are sentient. and Balance pillar was just as corrupt as the others that were not fixed yet
Well sneaking or not, you got the drop on Moebius. And he normally sees everything coming. Yet Mort comments that Moe failed to plan for the balance guardian's attack. So I'm trying to come up with reasons why that could have happened. One reason is that, as a good servant of EG, Moe gave up his life right on schedule because EG wanted the pillars restored/reset so it was time for him to go anyway. The other major possibility is that Moe didn't really want to sacrifice himself that day but Kain somehow snuck past Moe's all-knowing power and got the job done anyway.

So here's another reason for why Kain was able to "sneak" up on Moebius and kill him in BO1:
it was right after the paradox. Moe was still off-balance from all of the changes to history. (history was still "vibrating"). He hadn't had time to fully REBOOT his time-awareness software yet when Kain took his head off. It's a tricky concept, because on the one hand Moe had already "lived" 30 (or 50?) years of the altered timeline by the time Kain came back to find everything altered. But it's also true that all of history had just shifted only minutes before their final showdown, as proven by Kain's POV. So maybe for all those years Moe was living in the new timeline before Kain came back to kill him, Moe KNEW that Kain was going to come back and kill him in those first shaky moments after the paradox when the time guardian wasn't fully aware. His death was locked in as part of history now so there's nothing Moe could do to alter it even though he had decades to look forward to his demise and regret his mistake.

And I don't think the pillars are sentient either, but they are directed by sentient beings. Each guardian probably feels a raw instinctive energy coming from his chosen pillar, empowering him/her with special insights and abilities and pushing him/her to perform guardian duties. But it may be a two way street too, and the sentient thoughts of the guardians may influence the pillars and tell them what to do. Let's say Kain is thinking "This world has gone wrong and Moebius is the reason why! I need to do everything I can to kill him as the first step toward setting things right!" The balance pillar's energies may respond to Kain's distress, the pillar may activate based on his feeling that "the world's out of balance!" The Balance Pillar may receive a subconscious command from Kain to do what IT can to destroy Moebius. And what it can do is cut off Moe's power at the source when the time comes. (Whatever.) And yes Balance was also infected with insanity. I think its craziness is visible in how the pillar insists on all the guardians being killed. Sure, that's an effective reset button, but it's sort of crazy at the same time.

Last edited by TheSquid; 04-13-2012 at 04:04 PM.
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  #56  
Old 04-13-2012, 03:58 PM
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sigh.
Kain "got the drop" on Moebius, because Moebius LET him.
because Moebius was a time-streamer. he knew the future. He ALWAYS knew kain would kill him. it's kinda his job.
Kain was destined to kill him. This was never an issue. Kain didn't change history by kiling Moebius. They were both always destined to be there, at that time, and to have Kain kill Moebius. Since they are both bound to their destiniies (they don't have free will)

re: Elder's presence. I'm guessing it depends on how many souls he consumes. WHich leads us back to the very-very beginning

"There is a magical operation of maximum importance: the initiation of a new aeon. When it becomes necessary to utter a word the entire planet must be bathed in blood"

this always did puzzle me. I wonder if it has any actual relation to EG, who gets to fatten himself from the souls released during this blood-letting?

As for Raziel and his attitude, well, he's never been the most stable individual. and at the point when he's raising Janos, I don't think the implications of the "I could've been the Hylden or the Vampire champion" have totally sunk in yet.
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  #57  
Old 04-13-2012, 04:13 PM
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The quote's from a real world witch guy, the game just pilfered it for the spooky resonance it provides. That's why we never got to find out what word that line referred to, because it was a mood quote moreso than a specific-Nosgoth detail. Sometimes I imagine that quote being spoken by the Dark Entity Hylden Lord, whose big pillar-befouling scheme led to all kinds of chaos and death, and sometimes I imagine it's the Oracle who launched the 'magical operation' (paradox) that bathed the world in vampire blood.

MOe always knew the future. Then the future changed. ANd he died right after. Suspicious. That's all I'm saying. Like maybe his omnicience flickered for a minute right after his time-powers had taken a major shock from history resetting. Maybe resulting in a moment of vulnerability that wasn't there in the original timeline. Or maybe he died by Kain's hand in the original timeline too. (We can't be sure since we never got to see that part of the first timeine).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inquisitor Lexy View Post
EG was a bit too honest with him in SR2. If the EG really could 'see into Raziel's heart' as he claimed, he could have chosen his words better.
SR2 did set EG up as the evil step-father that Raziel had no choice but to detest. EG's effort level really dropped off. He went from master manipulator to whipping Raz with a stick in like 1 minute. Maybe if you can look into time and see that Raziel abandons you anyway, you just stop sweet talking the guy a little early?

Last edited by TheSquid; 04-13-2012 at 04:35 PM.
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  #58  
Old 04-13-2012, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSquid View Post
The quote's from a real world witch guy, the game just pilfered it for the spooky resonance it provides. That's why we never got to find out what word that line referred to, because it was a mood quote moreso than a specific-Nosgoth detail. Sometimes I imagine that quote being spoken by the Dark Entity Hylden Lord, whose big pillar-befouling scheme led to all kinds of chaos and death, and sometimes I imagine it's the Oracle who launched the 'magical operation' (paradox) that bathed the world in vampire blood.

MOe always knew the future. Then the future changed. ANd he died right after. Suspicious. That's all I'm saying. Like maybe his omnicience flickered for a minute right after his time-powers had taken a major shock from history resetting. Maybe resulting in a moment of vulnerability that wasn't there in the original timeline. Or maybe he died by Kain's hand in the original timeline too. (We can't be sure since we never got to see that part of the first timeine).



SR2 did set EG up as the evil step-father that Raziel had no choice but to detest. EG's effort level really dropped off. He went from master manipulator to whipping Raz with a stick in like 1 minute. Maybe if you can look into time and see that Raziel abandons you anyway, you just stop sweet talking the guy a little early?
not really that suspicious. he WANTED that change. it's knda why he made the Nemesis, and left a time-streaming toy in Avernus for Kain to find.

Moebius wanted all vampires dead. he changed the timeline using Kain, to make people hate and hunt vampires. he killed Vorador, Kain can't make more, and plus he's supposed to sacrifice himself to save the Pillars.

Pillars fixed, vampires gone, mission accomplished.
Don't forget, Moebius is also insane, like every other circle member. that, on to of his hatred of vampires, on top of his religious devotion makes for a scary and unpredictable character. we can't just assume that if he knew he was gonna die he'd do somehting about it--because that would be normal. and Moebius is not normal. (Neither is Kain, ofc, which is what makes the whole thing so deviosly complicated/interested--Up untill the end of Defiance, Kain is also insane)
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  #59  
Old 04-13-2012, 07:19 PM
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Moebius had more than a few decades to prepare for Kain killing him. Remember that when history changes, ALL of history changes. So Moebius had centuries to prepare, because in that new timeline, Kain always would kill him after Vorador was executed. Most likely it's just that Moebius saw it, and since it's fate, he can't prevent it, so like when Kain knew that Raziel would grow wings and come back as a wraith, he decided to control the events surrounding that moment as much as he could.

I never knew that the line at the beginning of Blood Omen was an actual quote. I guess that it's just meant to fit the mood of the game more? Thinking in the context of Blood Omen (which we have to. There was no Elder God planned for when they were making that game), I've always wondered if the "word" is Kain at the end saying "yes" or "no" to killing himself to restore his Pillar. "Magical operation" seems to refer to Hash'ak'gik's plan as far as I can assume. "The whole planet must be bathed in blood", well, you play a vampire in this game who goes around slaughtering people and drinking thier blood. Also, Kain has so many people he has to kill in that game. Pillar Guardians, Elzevir, William, and just anyone else who gets in his way. I think that he does a fine job of bathing Nosgoth in blood.
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  #60  
Old 04-13-2012, 07:53 PM
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Well, you also have to take into account that the EG would probably already assure our Moebius that he would be resurrected, which we see that he does at least on the timeline now. That's a huge advantage, knowing that you're fated to die, but also knowing that you have a God ready to raise you from the dead right afterward.

As for the bathing in blood of Nosgoth: besides what Kain does, you also have what first the Legions of the Nemesis have done/do, as we see part of that play out in the Battle of the Last Stand, where Ottmar's army is slaughtered...

Kain:

Quote:
I sated my thirst on warriors of Horde and Hope alike; the dying relinquishing their final moments to give me strength.
Quote:
At once, the battlefield was gone. Where the ground was caked with blood and dirt, there was lush greenery. Where chaos reigned only moments before, this damning calm prevailed. Alas, it seemed I was stranded here - the Time Streaming Device lay in pieces at my feet.
...which is then replaced by the slaughter of all of the vampires in Nosgoth from Moebius' vampire hunters on the new timeline.

Kain:

Quote:
I found myself once more in the Nosgoth I knew. The carnage from battle was gone. Yet there was something amiss. From the distance, I heard cries and a breeze from the south carried with it the faint odor of vampire blood.
I'd say the world was truly bathed in blood, and that it was necessary for a word to be uttered to do something about it, be it to purify the world again, or to damn it fully. While the quote may have been taken from elsewhere, it was certainly used because it fit and not just in mood. A magical operation of maximum importance=the plotting of the Hylden Lord (who was Hash back then, yes), who initiates the new eon. From this, it becomes necessary to utter a word=Kain's yes, or no, at the Pillars, to either save, or damn Nosgoth, and when it becomes necessary for such an act, that means all else in the world has become so corrupted, so vile, that the entire world will bathe in blood=what I described in the Legions battle with Ottmar, the other sieges throughout Nosgoth, Kain's vengeful fury throughout it, replaced only slightly with the vampire purges. Beyond this spillage of blood, corruption, murder, the plague, the very Guardians of Nosgoth turned on it, using it, manipulating flesh, minds, energies, nature, even death, to suit their needs.

Yes, a lot needed cleansing and only one word could do it. However, one word also could make it impossible to be fixed. Enter Kain.

The quote is from Aleister Crowley's MAagick In Theory And Practice. Needless to say, the guy was a bit out there. An occultist who lived from 1875-1947.
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  #61  
Old 04-14-2012, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Zulgbrtzchllha View Post
Moebius had more than a few decades to prepare for Kain killing him. Remember that when history changes, ALL of history changes. So Moebius had centuries to prepare, because in that new timeline, Kain always would kill him after Vorador was executed. Most likely it's just that Moebius saw it, and since it's fate, he can't prevent it, so like when Kain knew that Raziel would grow wings and come back as a wraith, he decided to control the events surrounding that moment as much as he could.

I never knew that the line at the beginning of Blood Omen was an actual quote. I guess that it's just meant to fit the mood of the game more? Thinking in the context of Blood Omen (which we have to. There was no Elder God planned for when they were making that game), I've always wondered if the "word" is Kain at the end saying "yes" or "no" to killing himself to restore his Pillar. "Magical operation" seems to refer to Hash'ak'gik's plan as far as I can assume. "The whole planet must be bathed in blood", well, you play a vampire in this game who goes around slaughtering people and drinking thier blood. Also, Kain has so many people he has to kill in that game. Pillar Guardians, Elzevir, William, and just anyone else who gets in his way. I think that he does a fine job of bathing Nosgoth in blood.
Just a quick thought, but I came to realize that the beginning dialogue in BO1 was nothing more but a foreboding of events. Kain had the decision to either sacrifice himself or damn Nosgoth. Although he gained a sense of what's really happening out there, I don't believe he got the full story until he discovered the Chronoplast. Once he got a full understanding of things, Kain had to act quickly and waited for a certain event to happen - Raziel standing before him with wings. I still remember how people thought he broke them out of jealously when in truth he did it to trigger future events that would occur. Moebius probably saw what was about to happen too and bided his time until Raziel arrived in the era thirty years before Kain first murdered him so that he can begin his manipulations and orchestrations against Raziel.
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  #62  
Old 04-14-2012, 11:13 AM
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re: that quote.

I just thought it really poignant that in Defiance, when Janos brings Raziel to the Citadel, he says "we stand at the threshold of a new aeon"
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  #63  
Old 04-14-2012, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hylden
He immediately comes out swinging at the EG, accusing him of everything and anything throughout the game, lol. It would have been nice if there was more of a clue as to the EG's sinister intent in the first Soul Reaver to warrant this change.
From an out-of-universe standpoint, it was probably just because CD were keeping their options open between games. We know for a fact that they weren't planning for what we got when SR1 was made. I recall an interview where Amy gave a "maybe" when asked if the Elder God might end up turning out to be Mortanius, for instance, which would have been an entirely valid course of action. There were so many ways the story of SR2 could have been crafted.

The same sort of omissions happen from SR2 to Defiance - there was no very obvious indication that the Vampires worshipped the squid before Defiance, nor any hints that Vorador forged the Reaver, but it ended up fitting well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSquid
Sometimes I imagine that quote being spoken by the Dark Entity Hylden Lord, whose big pillar-befouling scheme led to all kinds of chaos and death
Blood Omen 1's original production documents say that it was "possibly Mortanius" speaking this quote, although I'm about 99% sure that the line was delivered by Neil Ross, not Tony Jay.
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Old 04-14-2012, 02:49 PM
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it definitely wasn't Tony Jay.
As for EG being Mortanius--i'm guessing those questions arose due to the same voice actor?
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Old 04-15-2012, 03:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kud13 View Post
As for EG being Mortanius--i'm guessing those questions arose due to the same voice actor?
Also because the two characters fulfilled a similar role in BO1 vs SR1:
  • acting as a distant, telepathic advisor to the protagonist
  • setting the protagonist on their quest for revenge
  • being responsible for the current existence of the protagonist
OK, the last point is open to debate post-SR2, but the Elder claimed to have "spared [Raziel] from total dissolution" in the Abyss at the start of SR1.
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Old 04-15-2012, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kud13 View Post
re: that quote.

I just thought it really poignant that in Defiance, when Janos brings Raziel to the Citadel, he says "we stand at the threshold of a new aeon"
and let's not forget the Hylden Lord's "and thus a new epoch has it's beginning" - they may well both be aware of the quote and the new age it prophecies.
Interestingly enough, a little while back I was inspired to write a small article on this, expanding on it and the possible interpretations and background (mostly based on several previous threads here and at NR discussing it). It's a little raw compared to some of the others on the Wiki but take a look.
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  #67  
Old 04-15-2012, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corlagon View Post
Blood Omen 1's original production documents say that it was "possibly Mortanius" speaking this quote, although I'm about 99% sure that the line was delivered by Neil Ross, not Tony Jay.
Yeah, that's definitely Neil Ross saying that. One could definitely see Malek saying those vengeful words, too, given his state of mind, and all that befell him throughout the game.
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:23 PM
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Moebius did the best job of bathing the world in blood specifically to set up his magical operation, the paradox. All of that bloody fighting between nations was orchestrated by Moe to make sure Kain was fed up with the Nemesis and knocked off Will when he ping-ponged into the past. Moe's new aeon would be a human world alone without vampires.

Mortaneus, if he were the quote's speaker, would have the best claim to an operation of 'maximum importance'. (since he was out to save the world). But the Hylden Dark Entity has a very important mission too, saving a species, so he's a close second, and perhaps more driven. And the Entity has a well-defined new aeon he's striving to bring about too, whereas Mort is sort of just trying to go back to how things were in the previous vampire era, maybe with more world peace between the species than before? I guess Mort would be the clear winner when it comes to having a 'word' that needs to be spoken as part of his plans--thanks for pointing that out. But Mort underperforms in the bathing in blood category; by the time he raises his skeletons their bodily fluids are long gone.

So it's a 3 way tie.
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:34 PM
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When I first got into this series, it was with Soul Reaver, and then I played Blood Omen afterwards, and I actually thought that the Elder God might had been Mortanius after he died, that he turned into the Elder God. I really thought pretty strongly that they were the same person, but Soul Reaver 2 made it clear that they were very different people. I kept wondering if there would be a part in Soul Reaver 3/Defiance when Kain would hear the Elder God and think it was Mortanius speaking. Or the other way around with Raziel. I'm glad that they had a different voice actor for Mortanius in Defiance though, so that there wouldn't be any more confusion about that.
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Old 04-18-2012, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zulgbrtzchllha View Post
When I first got into this series, it was with Soul Reaver, and then I played Blood Omen afterwards, and I actually thought that the Elder God might had been Mortanius after he died, that he turned into the Elder God. I really thought pretty strongly that they were the same person, but Soul Reaver 2 made it clear that they were very different people. I kept wondering if there would be a part in Soul Reaver 3/Defiance when Kain would hear the Elder God and think it was Mortanius speaking. Or the other way around with Raziel. I'm glad that they had a different voice actor for Mortanius in Defiance though, so that there wouldn't be any more confusion about that.
I remember how they explained that. They didn't want to confuse people with Tony Jay speaking two parts at once and making them think that Mort was also the Elder God as well. It's a good move on their behalf. Alastair Duncan did an excellent job as Mort in Defiance, even if his appearance was only brief in it. Yeah, if memory serves me right, he had his one and only conversation with Raziel before he transported to the pillars to die at the hands of a youthful Kain and his blade. Also, I'm glad that having Kain or Raziel hear the same voice from both was not taken into consideration; it would have been weird and I'm not sure how it would have fit the storyline, given if that did happen in SR3/Defiance.
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