Garrett's Evil Counterpart and Foils

[Vhailor]

So in Each game there was Garrett's Evil counterpart or foil.
In Thief 1 we are introduced to Artemus:
Only keeper whose stealth rivals Garrett's, Artemus is what Garrett could have been if he stayed with Keepers.
In Thief 2 we are introduced to Karras:
Genius who rebeled against his order, sadly there is no more I can tell about him
In Thief 3 we are introduced to Gamall, Garrett's Evil Counterpart
Gamall was Keeper Elder and Garrett was Initiate, both of them are former Keepers (and they are only two, Keepers assassinate rogue agents) and are only two beings outside Keeper Order that know about Keeper's involvement in events.
Garrett is professional who is unwilling to kill on a job, Gammal is contrast, she is ruthless and willing to kill anyone if they stand in her way, indeed, Garrett is master thief who dont want trouble and tries to forget about Keepers, Gammal is serial killer that wants power, and infiltrates keepers.
Both Gamall and Garrett are very resourceful and talented individuals.
While Garretts perception and skills in art of stealth are very good (he is implied to be best sneak they ever had), his knowledge about Glyphs is very limited, Gamall is complete opposite of Garrett, she is not very good at sneaking (she was scribe,not field agent), her mastery of Glyph magic makes her very powerful and dangerous being ( there is no being with greater glyph mastery,she is even more dangerous then Trickster).
Both of them are near mythical beings within The City and within Keeper Order.
Garrett, 'The One Eyed Thief', is world's greatest master thief, despised by most, feared by all, everyone heard about his exploits. Gamall is know as 'The Hag', a mythical serial killer, tales about her are so terrible that few even dare to speak about them at night, even though even fewer believe she actually exists.
Within Keeper prophecies there are two beings of great importance to Keepers, vital to their survival, or destruction: The One True Keeper (Garrett) and The Brethren And Betrayer (Gamall).
Bottom line: Gamall is what Garrett could have became if he turned to murderer instead of thief, OR if he stayed with Keepers long enough to find about dark secrets of their Order, or Glyphs.

It is interesting what character will be in Thief 4, we had a: Master Keeper, Genius who rejects his own Order and changes them, Dark/Evil version of Garrett.
It will be interesting if there will be another master thief, who was not involved with Keepers, showing that Garrett could have became what he is, even without Keepers.
Your Thoughts?

[Platinumoxicity]

It sounds a bit forced to draw those parallels between Gamall and Garrett in my opinion. And which one was it again that was vital to their destruction? The brethern and betrayer, or the one true keeper? Because the real final objective of the true keeper was in fact the destruction of the keeper order, to remove the corruption. The true keeper was in fact the one who ended up getting the betrayer what she needed for the final step in her evil plan. The Eye.

[Vhailor]

Well, Garrett destroyed Final Glyph, but he did not destroyed the Order, Keepers still exists, but not in a way they worked before, because they no longer have glyphs, or phrothesies, they must raly on more direct approach (AKA, Garrett's way).
If Gamall had successeded, she would have been immortal and that would mean dark ages for whole thiefverse.
Long story short,Garrett changed the Keepers, while Gamall would have destroyed them.
What Garrett did was not dustruction, but new beginning for Keeper cycle (very first Keepers didnt had glyph magic, they discovered them later.)

[DJ Riff]

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

Because the real final objective of the true keeper was in fact the destruction of the keeper order, to remove the corruption.

To cripple all three factions, to be correct.

[DarkDagger]

Let's not start the "Garrett doesn't kill" thingY.

[glyph07]

Only keeper whose stealth rivals Garrett's, Artemus is what Garrett could have been if he stayed with Keepers.

I cannot agree with you on this. Artemus stealth rivals Garrett’s? When? How? From which elements have you deducted that if Garrett remained within the Keepers order would have become like Artemus at all?

In Thief 2 we are introduced to Karras: Genius who rebeled against his order, sadly there is no more I can tell about him.

hm….except that he wasn’t really a Genius rather more a psychotic individual with a huge ego and a tendency to mass murdering.

Gamall is what Garrett could have became if he turned to murderer instead of thief, OR if he stayed with Keepers long enough to find about dark secrets of their Order, or Glyphs.

Oh! …again…what makes you say so? If Garrett turned to murder, which is to say that Garrett were not Garrett anymore….but for the sake of extreme abstractions I’m gonna follow you in the hypothesis, on what do you base the presumption that he would have acted as Gamall?

It will be interesting if there will be another master thief, who was not involved with Keepers, showing that Garrett could have became what he is, even without Keepers.

I'm afraid the idea of having a storyline which presents a second thief, master or not master, challenging Garrett’s awareness of himself as he is or as he would be if…., doesn’t have anything to do with the main character.. I don’t recall Garrett show any interest in such issues or curiosity towards the speculative aspects of his being.

At least, this is what I think.

[Hamadriyad]

Originally Posted by DJ Riff

To cripple all three factions, to be correct.

Why is that correct? Pagans and Hammerites are still active, there is no harm to them. Only the Keepers don't exist as a faction anymore. (Even If they do, they are pretty powerless without glyphs) On the other hand, Pagans and Hammerites don't need glyphs already.

Originally Posted by glyph07

hm….except that he wasn’t really a Genius rather more a psychotic individual with a huge ego and a tendency to mass murdering.

Well, Karrass was a bloody genius actually. He invented a mechanical eye, among the other things. (watchers, Children of Karrass etc. ) I guess they are signs of a genius. I know Hammerites already had cameras (where did they go in TDS I wonder) but Karrass improved them.

[DJ Riff]

Originally Posted by glyph07

I cannot agree with you on this. Artemus stealth rivals Garrett’s? When? How?

Garrett: I thought I told you, I don't like being followed.
Artemus: Our separate paths have converged, Garrett. We both seek the same thing.
Garrett: Hmm. I suppose if you were working for Gamall, you would have tried to kill me just now.
Artemus: Tried? I would have succeeded.

Originally Posted by Hamadriyad

Why is that correct? Pagans and Hammerites are still active, there is no harm to them.

Pagans have lost the avatar of their god and one of the most powerful dryads. Hammerites have lost their power in City's affairs such as justice, power grid and lighting, industry. They will try to rise again, but won't be able to do something catastrophic in, say, 50 years or so (the estimated period between the Eye incident in Old Quarter and Dark Project time).

[Vhailor]

Dear glyph07, I would like to elaborate bit further on few things:
1. he propably would not have acted as Gamall, but he would pose just as great (or even greater) threat to everyone.
2. idea of Garretts foil in form of another thief is not perceived by him, but players
it dont have to be antagonist or Big Bad, it can be Dragon for Big bad, friendly competition, or his rival.
Garrett had to deal with threat of imbalance is 3 factions, (Pagans, Hammerites and Keepers), so in fourth he should have to deal someone like himself, someone who does not belong to any of factions
so his foil could work for such force, while being simillar to Garrett, it is not him.
3. why would Garett be like Artemus? Indoctrination. Garrett was only Iniatiate when he left them, if he had stayed with them long enough he would be indoctrinated fully to their worldview, and would see how beurocratic and inefficient they had became, thus turning pessimistic and fatalistic, like Artemus

Dear Platinumoxcity, he did not destroyed any of factions, but as DJ Riff mentioned, Garrett removed 'game breakers' for varous factions, dangerous elements that imbalance political and power system of those 3 factions to eachother and fate of The City (Pagan's leadership, Hammerites political standing and one of greatest inventors (Karra's invented or improved technollogies could have been a real game breaker) and Keeper's glymhs ) so making One True Keeper the ultimate balancing agent in The City

[glyph07]

Originally Posted by DJ Riff

Garrett: I thought I told you, I don't like being followed.
Artemus: Our separate paths have converged, Garrett. We both seek the same thing.
Garrett: Hmm. I suppose if you were working for Gamall, you would have tried to kill me just now.
Artemus: Tried? I would have succeeded.

So? That's Artemus assumption, nothing more!

[glyph07]

Originally Posted by Vhailor

Dear glyph07, I would like to elaborate bit further on few things: 1. he propably would not have acted as Gamall, but he would pose just as great (or even greater) threat to everyone.

Agreed, that though doesn't make him similar to Gamall in any way. Characters common denominators needs to be less generalist than "u're as bas as I am"

2. idea of Garretts foil in form of another thief is not perceived by him, but players it dont have to be antagonist or Big Bad, it can be Dragon for Big bad, friendly competition, or his rival.

I still think that a storyline that carries on a series already elaborated cannot just force ideas to fit a world which doesn't suit them. Another thief in Garrett's world is a banality and as G. himself, I, a player, would not care one bit for such a character

3. why would Garett be like Artemus? Indoctrination. Garrett was only Iniatiate when he left them, if he had stayed with them long enough he would be indoctrinated fully to their worldview, and would see how beurocratic and inefficient they had became, thus turning pessimistic and fatalistic, like Artemus

How can u say such things? Finishing the Keepers training could have as well meant for G. finding even more reasons to stay really clear of the Keepers to the extent he would not have been entangled in their schemes for any reasons at all. Mine and yours are just speculations not facts.

[Vhailor]

I for one wanted to see more experts of the night, other then Garrett, The city have fences, thiefs, assassins, muggers, even thieves guild, but it seems there is only 1 master thief in whole city, ofcourse, master thiefs are as good as Garrett, so either he dosent have bussiness with them or he just dont run into them, but wouldnt other thiefs would try to outmatch Legendary Garrett?
this is my personal opinion atleast.

[DJ Riff]

Originally Posted by glyph07

So? That's Artemus assumption, nothing more!

Garrett seemed frustrated as he discovered that he was actually followed, not just allowed Artemus to follow him.

[glyph07]

Originally Posted by Vhailor

I for one wanted to see more experts of the night, other then Garrett, The city have fences, thiefs, assassins, muggers, even thieves guild, but it seems there is only 1 master thief in whole city, ofcourse, master thiefs are as good as Garrett, so either he dosent have bussiness with them or he just dont run into them, but wouldnt other thiefs would try to outmatch Legendary Garrett? this is my personal opinion atleast.

And here there is the whole point. It is mainly in TDS that Garrett somehow gets a lot of exposure with the posters of him pinned on the walls of the City and his name easily spread around, but TDS took a very bad turn on the original storyline .

Garrett is a solitary creature and cares very little of others. Creating a sort of "other thief" who G. would feel the need to compare himself to, in my opinion, would simply distort the nature of the main character; it would make the Master Thief a sort of...."Because I'm Garrett/Batman like" (); it would give to much reference to TDS and not at all to the first two games. In short, it would create a T4 not about Garrett at all!

In truth, this is the thing that scares me the most.

[Vhailor]

very interesting idea, DarknessFalls, as I understand it would be simillar to very first mission in F.E.A.R where you, the Point Man is doing recon operation in abandonedwith other guy (dont remenber his name but he dies) ?

[glyph07]

Originally Posted by DarknessFalls

(...) I guess it could be supplemented in a way so that maybe he real-time helps disable security, or does other things in tandem with you to help you complete your objectives, but that'd all for EM to hash out. T1/T2 had pre-planted items from assistants. I'm just saying there's room to expand on that by making a Basso-like guy who actually stealthily walks around doing something through the mission.

You might be right, according to how the levels are strucutured and the coherency of the objectives is maintained. However, your suggestion is very far (thanks the Trickster for this ) from wishing to have on T4 a determined alter ego master thief evil counterpart (this thread asks to explore these ideas doesn't it?)

[Vhailor]

glyph07, by the TDS Garrett is something of legandary figure in The City, as I understand there is quite big time interval between Metal Age and The Deadly Shadow (Garrett looks quite old) so I presume he did many jobs in that time interval, also, posters looks nothing like Garrett.
Everyone heard of him (remenber The Watch have informants, Garretts is legend in underworld) so they writed Wanted: Garrett on some taffers picture (some dude with a hood, most criminals wear hoods, duh ) so there.

[Vhailor]

glyph07, by the TDS Garrett is something of legandary figure in The City, as I understand there is quite big time interval between Metal Age and The Deadly Shadow (Garrett looks quite old) so I presume he did many jobs in that time interval, also, posters looks nothing like Garrett.
Everyone heard of him (remenber The Watch have informants, Garretts is legend in underworld) so they writed Wanted: Garrett on some taffers picture (some dude with a hood, most criminals wear hoods, duh so there.

[Vhailor]

sorry for double post

[Vhailor]

glyph07, not necesserily Evil counterpart, foils too
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Foil
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...vilCounterpart

"A character who looks like the protagonists and has/had abilities and obstacles similar to the them, but is evil. Sometimes, but not always, a Big Bad.".

I hope it clears something.

[glyph07]

V. you are speculating on a lot of details though…. “presumably” Garrett did this and that in the meantime, “maybe” the picture on the wall is the image of Garrett (although on that note I must say that pict.1 and pict.2 look very similar to me and makes me think that the intention of the developers was to present a City where finally G. features were quite accurately known)

pict.1 & pict.2

….all considerations you have made come out from TDS and the arbitrary path it has taken as far as storyline is concerned.

Maybe I should have made it plain before, but what I hope for T4, as sequel, is that the story and characters continuity will take as little as possible from TDS. I have recently replayed all 3 instalments and while I was immensely enjoying the first two games I remained very disappointed with the third (starting from the introduction actually so even before playing the game).

As for the links (thanks btw) indeed you are right there are different ways of representing the villains and different degrees of relevance within a story. It is precisely in the level of importance other thieves are given within either the storyline or the game level, plus the degree of emphasis given to Garrett's reaction over their presence (which is inevitably going to confirm or partially redefine Garrett traits) that my scepticism lays.

I'd rather have a T4 which goes back to a more purist approach to the game plot.

[keeperr]

Some nice ideas, I especially like the idea of having a bit of scripted competition, maybe buming into some other thieves at work, on the run, or the aftermath.
Also I could stretch to a teamwork mission, if the story allows but it would undoubtedly be through no choice of our hero Garrett, he is teh lone wolf.
Maybe that mission could be calculated like, you might rely on that person for something, and likewise your being relied upon to get something done to progress the mission. Sounds a bit splinter cell for me though, it would have to make sense.
Things shouldn't conveniently be lying around missions, water arrows, flash bombs etc. Specialist equipment.