I don't understand some people...

[The Hylden]

Originally Posted by TheSquid

A demon's a demon, Bazielim. One was clearly produced from Mortanius' used up flesh. The "real" demons are finding ways to cheat their way into the world.

Hylden Lord was speaking through Mortanius, and then, after Mort blew up, Hylden Lord was still speaking through the demon. But that doesn't change the fact that it was now a demon we were looking at. One who'd forced its way through the barrier, just as the HL would eventually bring his body through into Nostoth as well.

I agree with Bazielim here, and completely disagree with your assumptions, Squid. The Hylden can morph flesh into, apparently, what they want, but that doesn't mean because this looked like a demon, that it is a demon.

You very much seem to be stating that a demon tried to slip into Mortanius' body and found itself taken over by the HL that was already inside Mort. However, the games do not support this. Maybe these demons do have the ability to morph flesh, but no game -- not one -- has shown them having this ability. They simply appear, as demons, on their own. They don't come through human beings and use their bodies. The Hylden are the only beings, besides Raziel, that are shown to have the ability to morph the flesh of a body they inhabit. Those mutated humans Bazielim cites called, "The Transformed" are stated to be the Hylden and they alone transforming the human's flesh, once the humans are used up. They're not demons. I find it to be a needless complication to have the black demon-like figure be an actual new demon that just so happened to try its poor, dumb, and useless luck in taking over dying Mort, and whoops! He got possessed instead. That's just coming off as counter to the path of least resistance these games love to tout and a bit ... much. It would take away from the grandeur of the Hylden Lord in that moment, also.

On your second point of the lesser demons, they might be further fleshed out in their backstory one day that they were once Hylden and that could be a nice addition, if done right, to see how far the Hylden could be deformed by the Demon Realm. I wouldn't argue with that, were it to be so, but right now, all we have is that they are simply one of the many breeds of demons from that dimension. The rest about demons just using the Hylden, offering them their pawns to their "spooky science," lol, well, nothing at all is clear about what's going on over there in that realm, nor how this relationship is between the Hylden and the demons.

As for the purple ones being deformed ancients, well, we see Janos' devolved state. If anything, his devolved state looks more like the red/black demons than the purple ones in BO2. Except, for the skull face, that looks similar to a Hylden, almost. lol, I really almost feel for those game programmers of BO2. I mean, the graphics were just sooo bad, that everything winds up looking the same. His demonic/deformed form looks like they painted a Hylden head on, then added rows of fangs; the bug demons have skull faces similar, and the horned ghost things in the Eternal Prison look similar. Ugh...

Anyway, by this one visual (and why Janos devolves into a demon-like being, is another whole kettle of fish), this all points to the purple demons not being devolved/deformed ancients. However, you never know...

Originally Posted by Graz'zt

Maybe eidos should stop making tomb raider and final fantasy games and make us another LOK game?

Or, at least add LoK back to that roster of published titles...

Edit: Squid posted just before me, negating half of this post

[Bazielim]

There is some interesting minor cut content on the Lesser Demons. One of cut 'Slaves to the Device' conversations features a sequence with a Slave describing what seems to be the transformation of a Human Slave into a Lesser Demon by the Hylden. About 7:17 here:
My own thoughts on this was that was probably the original reason for the 'domesticated' Lesser Demons in the Device (and Hylden City)...

and I'm sure someone has speculated once before that the Lesser Demon cocoons in the Canyons were doing a similar thing (changing humans into demons), but I've never been able to find anything concrete to back that one up.

[Graz'zt]

Anyone else think the masked guys with the feathers in the vampire citidel say "We get kinky."? I swear they say that.

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

Well what do you know Graz'zt, you just figured everything out! Who know that bondage was so critical to Nosgoth's history?

[TheSquid]

Yes Grazzt those bird guys sound like growling cats for some reason which tells you they're some very naughty monkeys. it is known.

Thanks Baz. It's sad to hear the BugDemons = Transformed Hylden idea get shot down by deleted dialogue like that, especially when those lines sounded like they were being read by a Jack in the Box employee on his break. Or maybe the reason they deleted it is because they realized it wasn't strong material and they were better off just leaving the demons a mystery until internet fans came along with something better.

The Hylden said: the games do not support this.

That's sort of funny, because on this particular occasion I'm the one who's arguing in favor of what we all saw happen in the game. Meanwhile you're going with a much more convoluted theory about how an obvious demon wasn't really a demon.

the core of what I'm saying is:
- Mort's hylden possession resulted in demon transformation.
(A trend througout the series. Hell's touch pollutes).
- The Hylden Lord pressed the launch button to explode Mort like a timed fireworks display at the end, and remained in control of the transformed flesh. (to deliver his Dark Entity speech)

This doesn't need additional support from the games, because it's restating exactly what happened in the game. This ^^ is the staightest line from point A to point B. It's the occam's razor explanation.

It's more needlessly complicated to say that the demon was an illusion. HL had access to real demons and didn't need to resort to faking it. That's why he didn't shed a tear when that demon body was destroyed/defeated in combat with Kain. HL hadn't lost anything because it wasn't his body. It was Mort's flesh, claimed by dark forces.

If the Dark Entity demon was just another hylden disguise like the glyph workers used, that would diminish a truly frightening moment in the story into just hocus pocus trickery like what Chris Angel or David Copperfield might pull on their audiences. Boo I say. Boo.

Okay I'm done acting like I care deeply about this junk. We now return you to your regularly scheduled episode of "Lite-hearted Demon Chat," already in progress:

[The Hylden]

Originally Posted by TheSquid

That's sort of funny, because on this particular occasion I'm the one who's arguing in favor of what we all saw happen in the game. Meanwhile you're going with a much more convoluted theory about how an obvious demon wasn't really a demon.

Say what?


Anywho, on those bird-men of Alcatraz The lines they say I think are subtitled, for you pleasure, by the game. Lots of vampire this, and vampire that. I love how there are clearly women and men, yet they all have the same voice. Oh, and when you toss one over a cliff, they make the same guttural male scream, no matter the gender, as the Sarafan and Moebius' hunters.


And yeah, there's not many ways that pop up for what those bug demons are cocooning their helpless humans for. It's either to turn them, or to eat them, so I don't think there's really much in the way of mystery here taken away. The Hylden and their wacky experiments.

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

I swear that I hear both male and female lines when they talk. I think you're right about that scream though.

[Graz'zt]

...And one of them says "We get kinky", Zulg. I always just assumed the bug demons had just caccooned the people to eat them later like a spider would.

[TheSquid]

Then why were the cocoons pulsating with hot sticky sounds and the green ghost light of doom? As if to tell us that something soooooooooo wrong was happening in there. So wrong! Maybe the demons were just slow-cooking their food in demonic crock pots? and that's what the web lantern cocoons were all about? Or did these demons find a way to be even more disgusting by turning us into them inside their throbbing webs?! Or was it a mixture of both? Maybe they wove the cocoons to lay their demony eggs in, and then they dragged captured humans up there and sewed them into the already pulsating webs so their demon babies could learn to chew the right way on a human buffet. Either way, it's obnoxious and we shouldn't put up with it.

[Graz'zt]

You're right- let's write our member of congress about it!