Eidos Montréal Open House - November 15! UPDATED with news & pics inside

[Mr. K]

It wasn't in Deus Ex, iirc.

[K^2]

Yup. Leaning simply shifted your POV, keeping your hit boxes under complete cover.

In a game where you could get killed with a single head shot, not being able to get hit while leaning from behind cover is just ridiculous.

[BlazeL]

Originally Posted by K^2

Yup. Leaning simply shifted your POV, keeping your hit boxes under complete cover.

Hmmm.... i never noticed that.... However, the player became visible to enemies while leaning, so even old style DX leaning is still a bit better than the 'TPS-seeing-around-corners' effect.

Not that leaning in itself is such a deal breaker for me, but i think it's a good feature in FPS games. At least, when they are implemented well, not like the stupid thing in FarCry/Crysis for example... So i would miss it a lot from DX3.

You understand programming far better than i do, so i ask it: is it such a big deal to code in at least some optional leaning to a game/engine like that? [If it is, i wouldn't complain, but it would be a nice touch nevertheless to see some effort from devs to make it possible. It could mean they are caring a little bit about hardcore fans, not just the ma$$es.] Or why else you think that leaning wouldn't be used?

[Mezgrath]

Mmm I will agree with K^2. The leaning in DX1 was completely useless. As already being said you can even walk near instead of leaning and have the same results. So don't tell you can't cover without leaning or other

[minus0ne]

Originally Posted by K^2

That's silly. Lean in DX was really cheap. Now, a partial cover lean would make sense. But being able to look around the corner without exposing self is no different than 3rd person view. It's unrealistic, reduces immersion, and is really nothing but training wheels for people who can't stealth.

As I said, I had absolutely no trouble playing stealthy in DX without using lean. Ever. Observe guards from distance first. Understand their routs. Peak out from behind cover by actually moving to the edge when you are sure the guards are not near to get some bearing on environment. Then use secondary signs, such as sounds of steps to know where guards are at all times. None of this requires a lean ability.

If you really can't play a Deus Ex game without lean, I think you are in the wrong company.

What a load of crock. You should try telling a Thief fan that their leaning is actually a cheat

Third person cover has MAJOR implications for gameplay, as Thief Deadly Shadows indeed demonstrated (the third person animations actually broke the first person gameplay, something you're blissfully unaware of yourself, for whatever bizarre reason).

Originally Posted by K^2

Yup. Leaning simply shifted your POV, keeping your hit boxes under complete cover.

In a game where you could get killed with a single head shot, not being able to get hit while leaning from behind cover is just ridiculous.

Either your memory is shoddy or you're just making stuff up. None of what you said here is true.

Leaning, at most, reduces your exposure. You can still be seen and shot at. Get your facts straight.

[Nathan2000]

Originally Posted by K^2

Yup. Leaning simply shifted your POV, keeping your hit boxes under complete cover.

No, it didn't. Pressing lean keys causes the player to move left or right 40uu (that's 2.5ft), rotates his viewport about 4.4° (if I'm correct) and forces him to crouch. You can still be seen and you can still be shot, what can be proved by a simple experiment. There is absolutely no difference between this and using your WSAD keys.

[Blade_hunter]

Leaning is easy to program despite it requires additional animations (except in DX who used the same animations as crouching + a little strafe moving), it doesn't require so much programming but it's seems to be linked to the character's properties I know programmers who implemented that in UT2k4 it's as simple as it appears to be (I mean for initiate programmers ...)
And why they just doesn't switch for a first person cover instead people seems to prefer that than the 3rd person version of it...
Blaze; I don't know what's the problem with the leaning in FarCry / Crysis ?

In DX the leaning is partial exposure; this is ridiculous to say what I see above "the don't tell you can't cover without leaning."
When I take cover behind a small crate I use crouching and prone moves when it exists, but for side cover it's impossible to do that without leaning or a cover system per see.

That's why leaning was invented for -> partial body exposure from a side
There is non binary versions of leaning, but they aren't practical to use + they need 3 keys instead of two.
the keys for the lean right and left plus the "reset" button that put you in normal standing position, this allow to regulate the inclination quite accurately buy using the two lean keys.

Covers systems have the advantage to use only one - zero additional keys plus being easy to use and have the advantages of the non binary leaning without the constraints -> 3 keys + the need of reseting the position.

Most old games doesn't have accurate hitboxes and in DX the leaning never provided a complete protection, but like most old games the hit boxes were often different than what we can see graphically, a thing that is enhanced with modern games and game modifications

[ArcR]

Thanks Blade Hunter for a solid explanation on the value of leaning.

I understand Mezgrath's not finding the lean function useful. Everyone has a playstyle and some are simply cannon fodder. But K^2... verify the facts.

[BlazeL]

Originally Posted by Blade_hunter

Blaze; I don't know what's the problem with the leaning in FarCry / Crysis ?

I can't put a finger on it, but.... it just feels all wrong. The best description i can give is something like that while these features are fairly useless in said games as they move the camera very little they're a bit immersion braking cause the movement is directing in a very weird angle. It's not so bad in FarCry, but it's unbearable in Crysis, so i never used them after the first couple of tries in either game. Probably it has something to do with being Crytek games???

[rokstrombo]

Originally Posted by Nathan2000

No, it didn't. Pressing lean keys causes the player to move left or right 40uu (that's 2.5ft), rotates his viewport about 4.4° (if I'm correct) and forces him to crouch. You can still be seen and you can still be shot, what can be proved by a simple experiment. There is absolutely no difference between this and using your WSAD key.

Yep, this is how I felt the lean feature worked too. The main advantage of leaning was that it required fewer keystrokes and it allowed the player to almost instantly return to their previous position by releasing one key (as Blade_hunter suggested). The main disadvantage was that the first person view made it somewhat difficult to correctly position JC for an effective lean. Aside from the slight convenience of fewer keystrokes, it was virtually unnecessary to gameplay. Regular WSAD movement was easily fast enough to avoid alerting NPCs to JC's presence.

I think more realistic leaning would be an interesting feature for Deus Ex 3, but pragmatically speaking it would be a new feature. The absence of leaning is therefore not really proof that Deus Ex 3 will be less than the original game.

[Blade_hunter]

Originally Posted by BlazeL

I can't put a finger on it, but.... it just feels all wrong. The best description i can give is something like that while these features are fairly useless in said games as they move the camera very little they're a bit immersion braking cause the movement is directing in a very weird angle. It's not so bad in FarCry, but it's unbearable in Crysis, so i never used them after the first couple of tries in either game. Probably it has something to do with being Crytek games???

Hums; I have to admit in Crysis the inclination degree was too small, in Farcry it was correct, at least sufficient to be useful, In Crysis the only thing I liked in their leaning feature was the weapon collision, but in crysis I didn't used much the lean feature, I think I found unconsciously their leaning feature quite useless

The first game I know with the leaning, and a complete panel of moves was system shock 1, it has leaning, looking moves, crouch, prone and jumping, it was quite the father of many "intelligent games"

A realistic lean is a first person cover something close to leaning BTW, even before knowing their existence I wanted something alike
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthr...t=79054&page=2
just look at this thread there is people who wanted the 3rd person cover and others not, and personally I dislike 3rd person covers ...