Eidos Montréal Open House - November 15! UPDATED with news & pics inside

[Ashpolt]

Originally Posted by IH-Denton

But we do know exactly nothing about "those things" We havn't seen the gameplay or even a screenshot. The FAQ has lost its actuality (remember tentacles ((= ). We just guessing, guessing and guessing...

We know regenerating health and third person cover are still in there - see the reports from people who visited the EM studio last week. And as Blade Hunter says, most of us here have played enough games to know how these aspects work - OK there could be tweaks here and there, but regenerating health is still health that regenerates, and third person cover is still a cover system that adopts a third person perspective.

By all means, if you feel that you don't know anything, then please feel free to remove yourself from the discussion. Others of us, however, don't feel this way, and so will continue to discuss and debate the game on its own official forum.

[PenguinsFriend]

"Deus Ex kind of slow?" Who the hell said that?

<rant> DX was a story, which I loved, and it's supposed tobe like Thief, not the other run and gun, no-brainer, lame-ass*d shooters. </rant>

[Irate Iguana]

Originally Posted by PenguinsFriend

"Deus Ex kind of slow?" Who the hell said that?

That would be Dugas.

[K^2]

My worry is though that, as above, not using the lock on system will provide less actual cover, because snap-to-cover will always fit whatever you're hiding behind, but if you're just ducking, that's a fixed height, so you might have a bit of your head still sticking out - I'm probably not explaining it very well, but hopefully you get me point.

That is quite possible, but again, I see this as training wheels. From what I have seen, there will be plenty of cover you can simply crouch behind and be completely concealed. They don't suddenly fill the room with crates that are exactly of snap-to-cover height and nothing else - Gears of War style. I'm absolutely sure that you'll be able to play the game exactly the same way as you did Deus Ex, perhaps, minus the lean ability.

On Fallout3, keep also in mind that DX3 is EM's first game. Just having good sales isn't enough. Game needs to receive good reviews and good user ratings afterwards. Having people actually complete the game, rather than just buy it, would go a long way towards this.

Not to mention the fact that FO3's sales are mostly hype-driven. There is not going to be nearly as much hype over DX3. It needs to sell on quality and, unfortunately, on mass appeal.

Originally Posted by Irate Iguana

That would be Dugas.

Every once in a while he says something that really worries me.

[minus0ne]

Originally Posted by K^2

keep also in mind that DX3 is EM's first game. Just having good sales isn't enough. Game needs to receive good reviews and good user ratings afterwards. Having people actually complete the game, rather than just buy it, would go a long way towards this.

That's the romantic view, I'm afraid. Here's the reality:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...an-high-scores

Marketing influences game revenue three times more than high scores

Research by EEDAR has shown that a high marketing spend increases gross revenue three times more than high review scores.

The perception that high scores are crucial to sales is a myth, said EEDAR's Jesse Divnich speaking at the Montreal International Games Summit today, and developers should realise the cold fact that a poor quality game shipped with a big marketing spend will sell much better than a great game with little financial support behind it.

"You can make the greatest game and it won't even matter. I know that's discouraging to developers at first but it's very true," Divnich told the audience.

"Marketing influences game revenue three times more than quality scores. There's a giant myth out there that reviews scores are the most crucial to a videogame. The reason why that is is the information is readily available – we can go to Metacritic – and we see games like Grand Theft Auto and Call of Duty succeed and we see they have a high quality score and we make that correlation. But the truth is, marketing actually has much more of an influence to game sales than high scores."

Looking at all games released between 2007 and the end of 2008, and comparing as many different configurations as possible – single format exclusives, handheld releases, Xbox 360, PS3 and Wii only – the research came to the same conclusion; marketing is more important than game quality.

Nintendo DS titles came out the worst, "this basically means that review scores for the Nintendo DS don't matter. If you're making a DS game don't even bother on quality, just ask for a bunch of marketing dollars," he said. "This actually suggests to developers that if you can, sacrifice quality to get a higher marketing budget."

For its first three months on sale, BioShock, which had $5.5 million in US marketing behind it, sold twice as many copies of EA's Dead Space, which had a budget of $2 million. The same results were found for EA Sports Active, which sold around 720,000 copies with a marketing budget of $5.6 million, compared to My Fitness Coach, which shifted an estimated 250,000 units backed with a $50,000 budget.

Divnich said that the research took in all variable costs and looked at whether the games drove more profits simply because they had more marketing spent on them.

"Looking at the gross margin, BioShock made $15 million more in the first three months than Dead Space, even when you take into consideration that Take-Two spent more money on marketing," he detailed. "EA Sports Active made $22 million more."

However, Divnich admitted that publishers can't just rely on marketing to sell their game – it has to be targeted correctly to sell the product.

"There are times when marketing fails, you can spend so much money but it doesn't matter. Sony spent $150 million globally on the launch of the PlayStation 3," said Divnich before showing the PlayStation 3 baby commercial first shown in 2006.

"They honestly thought they could release any type of commercial and it would sell. It truly is a WTF moment in marketing history. It creeped people out. Sony got complacent, they were on top of the world and they thought they could say 'here's the PS3 go out and buy it'."

"A lot of people want to blame the high price points for the PS3's failure, but I don't think so, I blame the marketing, it impacted the success of the PS3 much more than the price."

Divnich compared more recent PS3 commercials that accompanied this year's price cut, and suggested these were more of a driver to sales for the console than a cheaper retail price.

"Sales went through the roof and a lot of people attributed that to the price drop. I disagree, I actually think it's the marketing. It's how you distribute that message to your consumers. I truly believe Sony's success in late 2009 had less to do with the price drop and more to do with how they delivered their message," he offered.

"Unfortunately now you have the burden of knowledge," he told the audience. "You can work as hard as you want on your game to make it as high quality as possible, but if the marketing is not there it will fail.

"You know your target market better than anyone. Most agencies that make videogame commercials come from outside the industry. I honestly believe that more level designers and even low level programmers can make a better marketing plan than most marketing managers," he concluded.

And of course, then there's this:

IGN rates MW2 a 9.5 "Incredible".

Gamespot rates MW2 8.5.

So even review scores are all but meaningless now, but of course we knew that already. This is why I have to play a demo, play it at a friend's house or just pirate the game before I buy it. There's only one person who can judge if you're going to like a game and that's you.

[K^2]

It's not about short-term revenue. It's about establishing a studio. Very different things.

[ArcR]

Originally Posted by K^2

That is quite possible, but again, I see this as training wheels. From what I have seen, there will be plenty of cover you can simply crouch behind and be completely concealed. They don't suddenly fill the room with crates that are exactly of snap-to-cover height and nothing else - Gears of War style. I'm absolutely sure that you'll be able to play the game exactly the same way as you did Deus Ex, perhaps, minus the lean ability.

That may be a deal breaker for me. In Deus Ex I used elevation, cover, an enemy awareness for stealth and scouting. Using cover required leaning. I did a lot of fighting and take outs with the lean. I timed my entries by peeking. If they don't include leaning then I'm incline to wait for a dramatic price drop.

What a shame.

[Blade_hunter]

Originally Posted by Blade_hunter

Deus Ex
On it's shooter part it's a tactical shooter
On it's stealth part it's a first person sneaker
On it's character development you have enough skills and "powers" to be a ghost or a tank second your style of play
On it's adventure part you have a compelling story with about a world wide conspiracy with some minors interactions with

DX IW
On it's shooter part it's a basic and arcade shooter
On it's stealth part it's a first person sneaker
On it's character development you have only biomods witch disallow completely versatile builds
On t's adventure part you have a story about a world wide conspiracy that gives you the illusion to have multiple branches

Deus ex 3
On it's shooter part it will be an "FPA", a game similar to R6 vegas or Quantum of solace
On it's stealth part it will be a game like metal gear but with a first person view while moving and a third person view to watch around corners.
On the character development we have mechamods witch can be enhanced through skills related to each mechmod's particularities (this mean a mecha mod have some skills related to it)
On it's adventure part you have story about a world wide conspiracy with a multiple branching story

There is some unknowns but this is what I can tell about the game

I would say I want a Deus Ex game similar to DX1 with enhancements, I don't want the same game but a similar game and actually I would say I'm really unpleased with the shooter and stealth part ....

Just for the recap too bad they didn't changed the news about the regen and the cover ...

[K^2]

Originally Posted by ArcR

That may be a deal breaker for me. In Deus Ex I used elevation, cover, an enemy awareness for stealth and scouting. Using cover required leaning. I did a lot of fighting and take outs with the lean. I timed my entries by peeking. If they don't include leaning then I'm incline to wait for a dramatic price drop.

What a shame.

That's silly. Lean in DX was really cheap. Now, a partial cover lean would make sense. But being able to look around the corner without exposing self is no different than 3rd person view. It's unrealistic, reduces immersion, and is really nothing but training wheels for people who can't stealth.

As I said, I had absolutely no trouble playing stealthy in DX without using lean. Ever. Observe guards from distance first. Understand their routs. Peak out from behind cover by actually moving to the edge when you are sure the guards are not near to get some bearing on environment. Then use secondary signs, such as sounds of steps to know where guards are at all times. None of this requires a lean ability.

If you really can't play a Deus Ex game without lean, I think you are in the wrong company.

[ArcR]

Originally Posted by K^2

That's silly. Lean in DX was really cheap. Now, a partial cover lean would make sense. But being able to look around the corner without exposing self is no different than 3rd person view. It's unrealistic, reduces immersion, and is really nothing but training wheels for people who can't stealth.

As I said, I had absolutely no trouble playing stealthy in DX without using lean. Ever. Observe guards from distance first. Understand their routs. Peak out from behind cover by actually moving to the edge when you are sure the guards are not near to get some bearing on environment. Then use secondary signs, such as sounds of steps to know where guards are at all times. None of this requires a lean ability.

If you really can't play a Deus Ex game without lean, I think you are in the wrong company.

Leaning is partial exposure.

[Mr. K]

It wasn't in Deus Ex, iirc.

[K^2]

Yup. Leaning simply shifted your POV, keeping your hit boxes under complete cover.

In a game where you could get killed with a single head shot, not being able to get hit while leaning from behind cover is just ridiculous.

[BlazeL]

Originally Posted by K^2

Yup. Leaning simply shifted your POV, keeping your hit boxes under complete cover.

Hmmm.... i never noticed that.... However, the player became visible to enemies while leaning, so even old style DX leaning is still a bit better than the 'TPS-seeing-around-corners' effect.

Not that leaning in itself is such a deal breaker for me, but i think it's a good feature in FPS games. At least, when they are implemented well, not like the stupid thing in FarCry/Crysis for example... So i would miss it a lot from DX3.

You understand programming far better than i do, so i ask it: is it such a big deal to code in at least some optional leaning to a game/engine like that? [If it is, i wouldn't complain, but it would be a nice touch nevertheless to see some effort from devs to make it possible. It could mean they are caring a little bit about hardcore fans, not just the ma$$es.] Or why else you think that leaning wouldn't be used?

[Mezgrath]

Mmm I will agree with K^2. The leaning in DX1 was completely useless. As already being said you can even walk near instead of leaning and have the same results. So don't tell you can't cover without leaning or other

[minus0ne]

Originally Posted by K^2

That's silly. Lean in DX was really cheap. Now, a partial cover lean would make sense. But being able to look around the corner without exposing self is no different than 3rd person view. It's unrealistic, reduces immersion, and is really nothing but training wheels for people who can't stealth.

As I said, I had absolutely no trouble playing stealthy in DX without using lean. Ever. Observe guards from distance first. Understand their routs. Peak out from behind cover by actually moving to the edge when you are sure the guards are not near to get some bearing on environment. Then use secondary signs, such as sounds of steps to know where guards are at all times. None of this requires a lean ability.

If you really can't play a Deus Ex game without lean, I think you are in the wrong company.

What a load of crock. You should try telling a Thief fan that their leaning is actually a cheat

Third person cover has MAJOR implications for gameplay, as Thief Deadly Shadows indeed demonstrated (the third person animations actually broke the first person gameplay, something you're blissfully unaware of yourself, for whatever bizarre reason).

Originally Posted by K^2

Yup. Leaning simply shifted your POV, keeping your hit boxes under complete cover.

In a game where you could get killed with a single head shot, not being able to get hit while leaning from behind cover is just ridiculous.

Either your memory is shoddy or you're just making stuff up. None of what you said here is true.

Leaning, at most, reduces your exposure. You can still be seen and shot at. Get your facts straight.

[Nathan2000]

Originally Posted by K^2

Yup. Leaning simply shifted your POV, keeping your hit boxes under complete cover.

No, it didn't. Pressing lean keys causes the player to move left or right 40uu (that's 2.5ft), rotates his viewport about 4.4° (if I'm correct) and forces him to crouch. You can still be seen and you can still be shot, what can be proved by a simple experiment. There is absolutely no difference between this and using your WSAD key.

[Blade_hunter]

Leaning is easy to program despite it requires additional animations (except in DX who used the same animations as crouching + a little strafe moving), it doesn't require so much programming but it's seems to be linked to the character's properties I know programmers who implemented that in UT2k4 it's as simple as it appears to be (I mean for initiate programmers ...)
And why they just doesn't switch for a first person cover instead people seems to prefer that than the 3rd person version of it...
Blaze; I don't know what's the problem with the leaning in FarCry / Crysis ?

In DX the leaning is partial exposure; this is ridiculous to say what I see above "the don't tell you can't cover without leaning."
When I take cover behind a small crate I use crouching and prone moves when it exists, but for side cover it's impossible to do that without leaning or a cover system per see.

That's why leaning was invented for -> partial body exposure from a side
There is non binary versions of leaning, but they aren't practical to use + they need 3 keys instead of two.
the keys for the lean right and left plus the "reset" button that put you in normal standing position, this allow to regulate the inclination quite accurately buy using the two lean keys.

Covers systems have the advantage to use only one - zero additional keys plus being easy to use and have the advantages of the non binary leaning without the constraints -> 3 keys + the need of reseting the position.

Most old games doesn't have accurate hitboxes and in DX the leaning never provided a complete protection, but like most old games the hit boxes were often different than what we can see graphically, a thing that is enhanced with modern games and game modifications

[ArcR]

Thanks Blade Hunter for a solid explanation the value of leaning.

I understand Mezgrath's not finding the lean function useful. Everyone has a playstyle and some are simply cannon fodder. But K^2... verify the facts.

[BlazeL]

Originally Posted by Blade_hunter

Blaze; I don't know what's the problem with the leaning in FarCry / Crysis ?

I can't put a finger on it, but.... it just feels all wrong. The best description i can give is something like that while these features are fairly useless in said games as they move the camera very little they're a bit immersion braking cause the movement is directing in a very weird angle. It's not so bad in FarCry, but it's unbearable in Crysis, so i never used them after the first couple of tries in either game. Probably it has something to do with being Crytek games???

[rokstrombo]

Originally Posted by Nathan2000

No, it didn't. Pressing lean keys causes the player to move left or right 40uu (that's 2.5ft), rotates his viewport about 4.4° (if I'm correct) and forces him to crouch. You can still be seen and you can still be shot, what can be proved by a simple experiment. There is absolutely no difference between this and using your WSAD key.

Yep, this is how I felt the lean feature worked too. The main advantage of leaning was that it required fewer keystrokes and it allowed the player to almost instantly return to their previous position by releasing one key (as Blade_hunter suggested). The main disadvantage was that the first person view made it somewhat difficult to correctly position JC for an effective lean. Aside from the slight convenience of fewer keystrokes, it was virtually unnecessary to gameplay. Regular WSAD movement was easily fast enough to avoid alerting NPCs to JC's presence.

I think more realistic leaning would be an interesting feature for Deus Ex 3, but pragmatically speaking it would be a new feature. The absence of leaning is therefore not really proof that Deus Ex 3 will be less than the original game.