On movement, leaning and cover

[rhalibus]

I'm replaying DX1 again (w/ HDTP) and I realize that the one thing I use more often than in any other FPS is the lean option.

DX1 allows a very generous lean move: you can lean completely out from behind a wall and then release to be completely hidden again. I'm surprised how many FPS'es with lean options don't go far enough to make the option a viable choice.

Since DX1 relies so much upon covert movement, its lean options really add to the game. I spend a lot of time sneaking up to a wall in a crouched position and then leaning around the corner to get a full view of the next room, knowing that I can quickly snap back.

I hope Eidos Montreal realizes this important feature and doesn't remove it like Ion Storm did for DX:IW.

On a similar note: I have wondered about the ramifications of DX3 having a cover option similar to the Rainbow Six Vegas PC series, in which you would play as first-person but temporarily went to a cinematic third-person as you took cover. Would this be a possible good idea or would it spoil the immersion? What do you all think?

[user-9]

Yes, let's hope they make the player as mobile as possible...

One of the few good things DX:IW was the ability to mantle.

I hope they keep leaning and mantling.

[DXeXodus]

The lean option in DX1 was brilliant. It allowed one to alter the view quite dramatically and see around corners nicely, especially when compared to other FPS games. This, as mentioned, adds to the stealth dynamic and allows one to quickly assess the situation without exposing your body too much. DX3 should definitely incorporate this option again.

As for the cover system. It can work, but it will have to be implemented properly. The cover system includes many things as seen in Rainbow six:Vegas and, if used correctly can add to the game alot, especially in terms of stealth. It can also add to the game in terms of aggressive gameplay as one can just duck behind cover and shoot blind. I think it is just personal preference and is dependent on the way you like to play. In addition, this feauture will allow us to see our character in action more often.

[jordan_a]

Originally Posted by rhalibus

play as first-person but temporarily went to a cinematic third-person as you took cover.

I hate it. A game like Deus Ex needs to be played only in 1st person even if it's harder. The Vegas system is for dynamic games.

[serene_chaos]

As much as i like the idea of blindfire, i have to agree with jordan. it should always stay in 1st person. cause 1st person is what it's aaalllllll about. even if there are vehicles, or something, the game needs to stay in 1st person.

[Blade_hunter]

For the character moves I agree with the fact to get some third person shooter moves, the lean feature, and maybe some infiltration game moves, but we must stay on first person view, I dislike the fact in some recent FPS games like Rainbow Six to change the view in 3rd person view. I prefer to see our own body make some moves but in 1st person view.
When some games uses vehicles they use a switch to 3rd person view when you go into a vehicle; the first game with this feature was C&C Renegade, they use the same switching when you climb ladders, it was ugly for the immersion.
I think the game can use a third person feature if some players wants it but not as a switch or an auto switch in the game, it can be only a game parameter or never add the 3rd person view, it depends on the fact if we have too much players against the 3rd view or not.

[Fen]

I agree we should always stay in first person mode. However cover based play is great, and I would like to see some of it in dx3.

The only way I think it could be implemented well, would be that the higher the percentage of your body that is in range of your enemy, the exponentially higher hit rate he has. So standing out in the open and shooting is just downright stupid on higher difficulty modes. Players will have to do their shooting by leaning out around corners etc.

[jordan_a]

Rhalibus, Camera

[jcp28]

Screw 3rd person. 1st person provides the ultimate immersion experience, in my opinion.

[DXeXodus]

It is indeed true that making a transition between 1st and 3rd person breaks the immersion of the game. I still say it would be cool to see more of our character. But I suppose everyone is correct here, it should be 1st person all the way.

[rhalibus]

I think I'm coming down as well on the side of 1st person only, using the lean functions as cover. I know some new console games are experimenting with a 1st person cover system, but the more I think of it the more I believe Eidos Montreal shouldn't fix what isn't necessarily broken...

Now let's go in the opposite direction: The DX series is played in 1st player, except during longer 3rd-person conversations that require a player response. How do people feel about keeping the conversations 1st person as well?

Here's how it could work--the player selects an important NPC. The NPC starts talking to the player, but the view remains 1st person and the player can still move around and even leave the area around the NPC to break off the conversation. The player will also automatically voice non-variable responses, the way JC did in DX1.

When a response is required and the player is still within the NPC area, the player can choose a response by holding down the tab key (or some other key), quickly mouse wheeling to one of the appropriate responses that suddenly appear on the lower part of the screen, and releasing the key--much like picking a weapon or tool in the Ghost Recon Advance Warfighter series.

More resources would have to be put into what the NPC does if you leave a conversation, but the whole concept could increase the immersion in a new way; you would never leave first person, and you would only see your own avatar if you were looking in a mirror (ala Duke Nuke'm).

Would this be too complicated? Let me know what you think!

[RedFeather1975]

It would be neat if they could figure out how to do it in 1st person.
Maybe have the guy hold a mirror to help aim first.

[jordan_a]

Originally Posted by jordan_a

Rhalibus, Camera

and Sneaking

[Tsumaru]

Lean = fantastic. I use it in every game which has the option, and often miss it if it's not there.
Mantling = I think I may have used it once? More often it caused me problems. When I wanted to just jump straight up quickly, he tried to mantle because I was too close to the wall and didn't realise.
R6Vegas third-person switch = the mobility of that game was absolutely brilliant, but it's worth pointing out that it was designed to be so dynamic. You're the absolute elite in close-quarters combat. We're talking an international special ops team. I always felt that the earlier Rainbow Six games were lacking something. They felt the same as those SWAT games. Rainbow Six Vegas was carried by that mobility... but it wouldn't work in every game. Remember that this is *all* you have in R6. If you don't get in cover, you most likely *will* die. It just doesn't seem necessary in Deus Ex. Of course, necessary and good are two separate things. But I just can't see myself making full use of it. You're a super tough nano-tech augmented agent. You don't need to crouch and hide behind walls, shooting blindly over the top. You could jump ten feet into the air and pop a 9mm round straight through five guys' heads before landing again.

In all seriousness, all Deus Ex really needs is crouch and lean. Everything else is just over-the-top. The R6 Vegas movement didn't even add a whole lot more on top of that - it was just done differently. If you think about it, having your back to a wall and then spinning around the corner is basically identical to lean - except you have the unrealistic view of seeing what is past the wall first. Crouching down behind the small wall and then quickly popping up the top is the same thing - it's basically just a cooler and dodgier way of turning off crouch. I loved it in Rainbow Six Vegas, but I don't think it will add too much to Deus Ex.

Note: I don't have as much of a problem with maintaining "immersive first person". I never felt I lost that immersion in Rainbow Six. I think maybe because the fight scenes were often just too damn intense it drew me in. But it was a bit dodgy how you could see everything going on when your character was technically facing the complete opposite direction (back towards the "camera").

If he has mechanical augmentations, he might be able to jump off buildings or punch through concrete, but no man can inexplicably see the world from three feet above his own head.

Whats about them there bots in IW? =P

[sea]

Regarding player movement, I don't think a cover system is at all necessary, especially in a first-person game. Killzone 2 does this, and the idea of having to "snap" to a wall to peek out from it is just silly and awkward. Gears of War and other shooters work well with cover systems because it is essentially the basis of the game; flanking and staying behind cover while popping out to attack is what those games are all about.

Deus Ex, however, is a hybrid RPG/shooter, and so I have trouble seeing the importance of a cover system and/or a third-person camera of any sort in the game, seeing as how it would likely just damage immersion. Stealth has a very nice "feel" in Deus Ex despite the fact that it's a first-person game; you really feel like you're constantly in motion, fluid as you peek around corners and switch between a run and a crouch. Unless you're being stealthy, however, I don't think cover is all that necessary in Deus Ex. If you're going to go guns-out, rambo-style, then you have other augmentations that turn you into a damage-absorbing tank anyway, making cover use virtually inconsequential. In short, keep cover there for stealthy players, but not for action-oriented players; don't just shoehorn in a cover system because it's what everyone else is doing.

I'd say just keep the leaning left and right, and possibly an upwards lean if it's really warranted (for shooting above cover). As for mantling... eh, it doesn't matter that much to me. If you include it, then it just means you'll need to make objects that can't be climbed without augmentations that much taller; if you don't include it, then you arguably lose out on a bit of realism. Deus Ex has a nice "true 3D" feel to it, with lots of vertical movement (the warehouse district of Manhattan being one of the best examples), so it might be beneficial to make things taller and open up a greater range of vertical movement. Jumping up the ledges of skyscrapers or on apartment building fire escapes as an alternative to taking the stairs or the elevator could be a really cool reward for players who choose to invest in the more acrobatic augmentations (of course, I'm not talking Crackdown here), just as characters who play it stealthy can be equally rewarded with hidden caches of items and whatnot.

The beauty of accommodating the different play styles that make Deus Ex stand out is that it's actually not that hard to incorporate them into already-existing environments. Vents are probably the easiest example; they're about as cheap and easy as it gets when it comes to giving stealthy players an alternate route, take very little time or effort to produce, and go a long way towards increasing immersion and believability for the player. Meanwhile, if you're looking for the above-mentioned vertical exploration, again, it's not too tough. A few logically-placed ledges, catwalks, etc. on the exterior of a building are all it takes to provide more acrobatic players hours of free platforming.

[Tsumaru]

I totally agree with sea. That's what I was trying to say, but I didn't manage the clarity that he did. =P

One thing I did just think of... I wonder if there would be much benefit of a prone? It really depends on the environment I guess. I use prone a lot in first person shooters which are in open natural environments - lying down within/behind bushes etc. Not as valuable in the urban setting of Deus Ex I guess. But just as a general open discussion - what do people think? It's pretty damn easy to implement, but would it be worth anything?

[rhalibus]

Originally Posted by sea

Regarding player movement, I don't think a cover system is at all necessary, especially in a first-person game. (...)

Deus Ex, however, is a hybrid RPG/shooter, and so I have trouble seeing the importance of a cover system and/or a third-person camera of any sort in the game, seeing as how it would likely just damage immersion. Stealth has a very nice "feel" in Deus Ex despite the fact that it's a first-person game; you really feel like you're constantly in motion, fluid as you peek around corners and switch between a run and a crouch.

I'd say just keep the leaning left and right, and possibly an upwards lean if it's really warranted (for shooting above cover). As for mantling... eh, it doesn't matter that much to me. If you include it, then it just means you'll need to make objects that can't be climbed without augmentations that much taller; if you don't include it, then you arguably lose out on a bit of realism. Deus Ex has a nice "true 3D" feel to it, with lots of vertical movement (the warehouse district of Manhattan being one of the best examples), so it might be beneficial to make things taller and open up a greater range of vertical movement. Jumping up the ledges of skyscrapers or on apartment building fire escapes as an alternative to taking the stairs or the elevator could be a really cool reward for players who choose to invest in the more acrobatic augmentations (of course, I'm not talking Crackdown here), just as characters who play it stealthy can be equally rewarded with hidden caches of items and whatnot.

The beauty of accommodating the different play styles that make Deus Ex stand out is that it's actually not that hard to incorporate them into already-existing environments. Vents are probably the easiest example; they're about as cheap and easy as it gets when it comes to giving stealthy players an alternate route, take very little time or effort to produce, and go a long way towards increasing immersion and believability for the player. Meanwhile, if you're looking for the above-mentioned vertical exploration, again, it's not too tough. A few logically-placed ledges, catwalks, etc. on the exterior of a building are all it takes to provide more acrobatic players hours of free platforming.

Well said, sea! I also think mantling would be a great addition to DX3; you could still make the jumping and box-lifting augs useful by having ledges and windows even higher.

Although I do agree with your later post about a "prone" position being unnecessary for DX, it certainly helped in Crysis...