Am I The Only One Who Liked DX:IW Better Than DX?

[Rise Of The Dentons]

Am I?

[HOC]

out of curiosity, why do ya like dx:iw more than the original?

and to answer your question, quite possibly yes.

[SATCOM]

I liked Invisible War slightly more than Deus Ex
*hides*

[Jesus, P.I.]

Originally posted by Rise Of The Dentons
Am I?

We don't get many people around here of that persuasion, at least not many people who speak up about it. So please elaborate, I am interested in hearing your opinions, and passions have died down enough since release so that you really have nothing to fear in the way of flaming/trolling.

[Alai]

Originally posted by Rise Of The Dentons
Am I?

Yes.

[Axewerfer]

Yes, please elaborate, how are you judging the game?

Graphics?
Gameplay?
Combat?

Inquiring minds want to know!

[Mr. Perfect]

I like DE:IW, but once I was done playing it, I got this huge craving to start playing the origonal again. I'm back in Paris again on realistic.

[Hellhound]

Heck, I'd really like to hear that as well.

Hellhound

[FlatFoot]

I'd be interested in the reasoning myself.

Fact is that message boards, newsgroups and live chat have become a great boon to those of us who like to moan/whine/complain. It's great therapy!

Unfortunately when most people are satisfied with a product they don't spend a whole lot of time defending it. On the other hand people who've shelled out dinero on something they're disappointed in can get a whole lot of satisfaction ranting about the fact with those who are of like mind.

Good luck in Paris, Mr. Perfect. Have a slug of the old vino for me!

[mkreku]

There are a lot of us out here that are eagerly awaiting your reply, Rise Of the Dentons!

Put me in line for an explanation as to why you think Deus Ex: Invisible War is better than the original..

[Rise Of The Dentons]

sry it took me so long, but i did like the grapics better and the combat, i also found it more addicitive for some reason i also loved the omar and the tight story line. I also liked be Alex D better too.

Rise Of The Dentons

[cball05]

Although I haven't finished DX:IW, I'm liking it at least as much as the original. I'll defend that on a few points:

Graphics: No competition here. Bots and people are much more convincing.

Environment: Much richer. Example: Shooting lights, especially the hanging ones like in the greenhouse, is a game in itself. Also, the environment allows creative solutions - for example, I wanted to burn the coffee boxes but didn't have anything flammable. So I knocked over a flaming trash can and threw the boxes in, making a nice little coffee bonfire. I never would have been able to do that in DX1.

Sound: Although not immediately noticable, the way sound carries in the game is pretty cool - you can hear people's voices echo all tiny-like through air ducts and around corners.

Ease of use: IW fixed a few annoying problems of DX1, i.e. automatic equiping of multitools.

Robots: Much better catchphrases than simply "scanning area", and Bot Domination was a great idea.

AI: Although not amazing, it is an improvement over the original - for example, if enemies hear a disturbance they don't automatically know where you are like in DX1.

Objective choices: DX1 claimed to give you many storyline choices, but in reality there were only a handfull of times when I had to make a choice as to what choice to make. IW gives you lots of different objectives => better replayability.

With that being said, I realize that there are several problems with IW:

Performance: My machine is fairly high-end, and I still have to run IW on the lowest resolution. Keep in mind, of course, that even on the lowest resolution IW looks much better than DX1.

Story: Can't really comment on the overall storyline since I haven't finished, but so far it seems a bit lacking in detail. Then again, DX1 seems pretty simple at the beginning too.


I'm open to arguments

[RobK]

Originally posted by cball05
I'm open to arguments

Hah! You invited it! Other people disappointed in DXIW, don't bother, I've got this covered.

Originally posted by cball05
Although I haven't finished DX:IW, I'm liking it at least as much as the original. I'll defend that on a few points:

Graphics: No competition here. Bots and people are much more convincing.

Bots, most certainly, mouth movements look considerably better too. However, the "big white eye syndrome" really took away from it for me, as did the repeated use of the same NPC models. I realize there were duplicates in DX, but it was a considerably longer game, and so they were more spread out, giving it at least the impression of it not happening as often.

Originally posted by cball05
Environment: Much richer. Example: Shooting lights, especially the hanging ones like in the greenhouse, is a game in itself. Also, the environment allows creative solutions - for example, I wanted to burn the coffee boxes but didn't have anything flammable. So I knocked over a flaming trash can and threw the boxes in, making a nice little coffee bonfire. I never would have been able to do that in DX1.

Yeah, that was pretty solid stuff there. But the rather ridiculous 'floaty' feeling of it was pretty absurd. Climbing into a dumpster I can understand, but gently lifting off the ground, floating up high enough that your legs pass over the rim, and setting down without so much as a thump inside is kind of pathetic. The use of fire was very nice though, I'll concede. I had fun knocking over barrels to light bums on fire.

Originally posted by cball05
Sound: Although not immediately noticable, the way sound carries in the game is pretty cool - you can hear people's voices echo all tiny-like through air ducts and around corners.

The sound was okay too, but there were some spots that it really fell flat. Voice acting is the most obvious criticism, with the vast majority of the characters' voices sounding thoroughly forced. I have to say though, I never noticed voices carrying through air ducts. Can you think of anywhere in specific this happened to you, so that I can go see (or rather, listen) ?

Originally posted by cball05
Ease of use: IW fixed a few annoying problems of DX1, i.e. automatic equiping of multitools.

Completely and totally disagree. The interface of this game was poor to say the least. I seem to be against the majority in saying that I liked how the HUD looked, but looks aren't a supplement for functionality. For example, it make no firkin' sense that I can mousewheel scroll through my weapons, click to select it, and I can't do the same to holster it. What the hell is up with that? I also really don't see the automatic equipping of multitools as being any particular benefit either, when you consider what was lost for that "benefit"; now we don't have anymore usernames, passwords, PIN numbers, or door codes, all of which are (IMO) an extremely significant loss that impact the immersiveness of the game strongly.

We've also lost our nanokey thing, effectively neutering any desire to explore for keys, since we can just use a multitool (and since multitools are so ludicrously abundant, it really doesn't matter how many we use). This also means that we don't get anymore lockpicks (and how an orange beam can both bypass a keypad and pick a lock, I'll never understand).

Originally posted by cball05
Robots: Much better catchphrases than simply "scanning area", and Bot Domination was a great idea.

Bot Domination was a neat idea, but the absurd amount of aug (sorry, biomod ) canisters destroyed any intrinsic value that this new system might have had. But the comment was about robots, so I'll go on with that.

Really, when it comes to security bots, how much more diversity do they need than "scanning area"? They aren't sentient or anything, they're programmed machines, and they do precisely that: scan areas for threats, and where they exist, neutralize them.

Originally posted by cball05
AI: Although not amazing, it is an improvement over the original - for example, if enemies hear a disturbance they don't automatically know where you are like in DX1.

Erm....I'm playing through DX1 right now, and I have no idea what you're talking about. Just last night, there was an MJ12 commando standing beside an MJ12 trooper. I stood up, shot the trooper with a tranq dart, and ran like hell. They were shooting at me, and even managed to score a few hits. Then I went around a corner and hid in the shadows. The commando came around the corner running and went right past me before deciding he'd lost me and gave up. I didn't see any significant improvement (or difference, for that matter) from DX1 to DX2.

Originally posted by cball05
Objective choices: DX1 claimed to give you many storyline choices, but in reality there were only a handfull of times when I had to make a choice as to what choice to make. IW gives you lots of different objectives => better replayability.

You're right about DX1, but the fact that the game and its story were so well done, the fact that choice was only an illusion most of the time was really a moot point. The game played well because of how it was designed. DX2 was handled differently. You have to make choices throughout the game, which ultimately don't mean a thing. I won't spoil why this is for you, since you haven't finished it yet, but that really kills any replayability. I tried, and I just can't be bothered. I'd rather play DX1 or read a book.

Originally posted by cball05
With that being said, I realize that there are several problems with IW:

Performance: My machine is fairly high-end, and I still have to run IW on the lowest resolution. Keep in mind, of course, that even on the lowest resolution IW looks much better than DX1.

In some cases, but not really all. The default texturing is overall pretty darn weak. It's pretty blurry, and that really isn't all that dissimilar from DX1. The mouth synching is a little better, but not drastically, and personally, I thought that the game's architecture was pretty lackluster when put beside its predecessor.

But this is all dodging the issue, which you said yourself was performance. And when a game performs this poorly on a high end machine (I'm fairly high end, and I run at 640x480, medium details to try to get a 30fps rate), clearly they needed more time to optimize this game. Or maybe they should just hire a competent QA department.

Originally posted by cball05
Story: Can't really comment on the overall storyline since I haven't finished, but so far it seems a bit lacking in detail. Then again, DX1 seems pretty simple at the beginning too.

DX1 did seem simple at the beginning, fair enough. But the game evolved and became much more complex by the end. Don't get too excited about DX2 getting any better, it doesn't. I won't elaborate further, since you haven't finished it yet.

[Isotope]

It's really just a matter of opinion. Some people would rather have the havoc physics engine. Throwing stuff at other stuff has never lost it's appeal, especially when you use a blaming barrel.

[mkreku]

Well, to me it's quite obvious that the only people who enjoy Deus Ex 2 more than Deus Ex 1 are the ones who put graphics above all else. Although I find that rather strange, since Deus Ex 2 didn't have jawdropping graphics in any way. Blurry textures, really horrible performance and a certain clumsiness in the modeling (check out the thickness of.. uh.. that singing girl's dress.. The fabric is like an inch thick!)

Deus Ex used a different graphics engine. A lot older one. Yet it managed to have large levels, excellent FPS, lots of detail and average graphics. Of course it's aged a bit but how many are going to think Deus Ex 2 looks good a year from now?

[Random]

You kinda contradicted yourself there. If people who like DX2 only like graphics, they'd still be disappointed in DX2 because:

Deus Ex 2 didn't have jawdropping graphics in any way. Blurry textures, really horrible performance and a certain clumsiness in the modeling (check out the thickness of.. uh.. that singing girl's dress.. The fabric is like an inch thick!)

My own opinion: I like DX1 more than the sequel, but IW is better than the original in the core game design. The way the game systems are designed is better than in the original. cball's coffee bean example is apt: IW allows you to play improvisationally, solving problems the way you choose based on what tools are available to you. The number of ways to get past laser beams, for example, is quite staggering.

IW lacks in a few important areas, but the actual Deus Ex brand of gameplay is stronger.

[cball05]

Originally posted by Random
IW allows you to play improvisationally, solving problems the way you choose based on what tools are available to you.

Exactly my main point. To answer several of RobK's questions:

Sound - the best example off the top of my head is in the arcology, when you go to spy on the Templars through the duct system. If you just move several feet into the entrance grate, you're able to hear echoes of the spiderbots. This added to gameplay by allowing me to pull out my EMP-modded pistol as I rounded the corner.

Ease of use - agree that holstering is messed up - why is my right mouse button not working?!?! But for several of the other issues, I haven't found them to have a huge impact on the game. Also, many of the aspects of DX1 have simply been modified, i.e. door codes still exist but you just don't manually type them in. I don't know about you, but typing in door codes was never a highlight of DX1.

AI - for example, at Vandenburg I was on the roof and saw two guards standing far away below me, looking the other way. I shoot one with my sniper rifle and then...tada! the other one whips around and shoots me. In DX2, however, they've swung the problem a bit to the opposite extreme - AI is a bit too stupid to recognize threats. But still, at least they made a more realistic change.

Story - I've gotten a little farther since my last post, and I'm liking the story more. The whole thing in Egypt with

Archer really being a Templar

is kind of cool.

[Random]

Originally posted by cball05
AI - for example, at Vandenburg I was on the roof and saw two guards standing far away below me, looking the other way. I shoot one with my sniper rifle and then...tada! the other one whips around and shoots me. In DX2, however, they've swung the problem a bit to the opposite extreme - AI is a bit too stupid to recognize threats. But still, at least they made a more realistic change.

I would love to see the Vandenburg scenario redone with IW's AI, but with three guards. I posted a story a while back about an experience I had in the IW demo: I shot a guard on Sak's roof silently, so no one saw me or knew where the shot came from. But a guard in Sak's office saw the dead body through the window, and figured the other roof guard had done it. So the guard in Sak's office killed the other roof guard, and that set off a chain reaction of the guards killing each other. Sak shot the guard in her office, then the guard in the hallway killed Sak, not because they'd accidently shot each other (they hadn't), but because they saw the result and, I assume, put 2 and 2 together. That was pretty amazing. Unfortunately it hasn't happened again since.

[HOC]

Originally posted by cball05

AI - for example, at Vandenburg I was on the roof and saw two guards standing far away below me, looking the other way. I shoot one with my sniper rifle and then...tada! the other one whips around and shoots me. In DX2, however, they've swung the problem a bit to the opposite extreme - AI is a bit too stupid to recognize threats. But still, at least they made a more realistic change.

wouldn't call that a "realistic change". although the reaction time in your vandenburg scenario is far fetched, it's much better than shooting someone point blank and getting no reaction at all.

Sound - the best example off the top of my head is in the arcology, when you go to spy on the Templars through the duct system. If you just move several feet into the entrance grate, you're able to hear echoes of the spiderbots. This added to gameplay by allowing me to pull out my EMP-modded pistol as I rounded the corner.

i noticed no difference between dx:iw and the original, or the thief series for that matter. not sure about what ya claim to be "echoes" though, so i'll take your word for it.

Ease of use - agree that holstering is messed up - why is my right mouse button not working?!?! But for several of the other issues, I haven't found them to have a huge impact on the game. Also, many of the aspects of DX1 have simply been modified, i.e. door codes still exist but you just don't manually type them in. I don't know about you, but typing in door codes was never a highlight of DX1.

i can understand not liking to type in door codes, but i can't understand how removing that allows people to claim the game is just as immersive as the first. not saying that's what you're implying, but i have seen many make that claim. but that's not a "modified aspect", that's a removed one. might make the game easier to play (and no offense, but typing in digits does'nt come off to be nearly as difficult as roasting a marshmellow), but also makes it "dumbed down".

[DreamEndless]

Originally posted by Rise Of The Dentons
Am I?

Unfortunatly not... This game is getting a lot more publicity than the first and is being sold primarily on it's graphics (from an XBOX standard)

I don't hate this game, I just think the 1st one deserved more acclaim than it received as it was a far braver and more interesting attempt.

[rocket_magnet]

invisible war has a much better storyline, but lacks the ultimate depth that deus ex did

[Hellhound]

Originally posted by Random
I would love to see the Vandenburg scenario redone with IW's AI, but with three guards. I posted a story a while back about an experience I had in the IW demo: I shot a guard on Sak's roof silently, so no one saw me or knew where the shot came from. But a guard in Sak's office saw the dead body through the window, and figured the other roof guard had done it. So the guard in Sak's office killed the other roof guard, and that set off a chain reaction of the guards killing each other. Sak shot the guard in her office, then the guard in the hallway killed Sak, not because they'd accidently shot each other (they hadn't), but because they saw the result and, I assume, put 2 and 2 together. That was pretty amazing. Unfortunately it hasn't happened again since.

Did you post this as an example on how good the AI is in IW, or on how bad it is?

Hellhound

[KingRat]

Originally posted by Hellhound
Did you post this as an example on how good the AI is in IW, or on how bad it is?

Hellhound

more like how flexible it is

[Viking2]

Ok, well, if everyone is done making political statements, starting civil wars, and having philosphical discussions over a game that makes the average mental patient call its supporters crazy, I'd like to tell you something. Actually, I wouldn't, for fear of you guys overanalyzing it. But here goes.

There's a reason, you know, that the local Electronics Boutique around here has lowered the price of DX:IW to 34.99 (Canadian) AFTER TWO MONTHS OF THE ORIGINAL RELEASE. The game SUCKS. And, everyone knows it. Now, you can go on pretending you didn't kill your mother out of dissapointment when you first played it, but it's not fooling the rest of us. The reviews- bad. The general opinion of the franchise- bad. I wouldn't be surprised if anger towards this game hasn't caused more deaths than the attack on the now-famous two towers in NY. Next thing you know, Bush, the balding homicidal maniac with that ugly wife, will put Ion Storm on the "Axis of Evil", along with North Korea, Iran, and like, the devil. I really don't feel like listing the reasons why this game is horrible, because if you can't tell yourself, you're probably too much of an idiot to be worth my time. If you happen to be an idiot, however, simply check the last 50 pages of this forum, and you will find how thousands of people kindly flamed the game to hell, and their reasons for it.

[cball05]

Originally posted by Viking2
Ok, well, if everyone is done making political statements, starting civil wars, and having philosphical discussions...

What a great post. You really supported your opinion and brought up interesting points.

The general opinion of the franchise- bad.

Umm...so you didn't like either game? Could you POSSIBLY think that maybe that's just your personal opinion and that others differ?