let's start again from the top

[Blue Winged Fellow]

I really didn't know where to put this post, so I though I would create a new thread with it, but I think It would help everyone understand (and generate) better theories if we know the facts in order.

Don't get me wrong in this. It's not such an easy task to understand the whole plot right now. And with all this time travelling and all that, it's getting kind of confusing to keep up with the theories laying around.

I have seen many sites and posts that try to get the whole story in a time frame (Sort of what is done in SR2) but I haven't seen one that sticks ONLY to the KNOWN facts, i.e. Just what we KNOW that happens (either from Kain Experience, Raziel Experience, Janos story telling, Moebius story telling, Ariel story telling, etc.).

For example, I have not clear which one came first: Did the Ancients build the Pillars after they had the Soul Reaver? or did they make the Soul Reaver before creating the pillars?

Another thing I don't have clear is, if the pillars choose their own, and vampires are inmortal, and originally the pillars had vampire custodians, then WHEN and WHY did the pillars started to get Human guardians?

Didn't Kain see Moebius and a mob killing Vorador when he came back in time from killing William? Then how is it that Vorador lives in BO2? (Now, this one for sure may have a logic explanation, but I don't seem to find it)

So I believe we should try to compile a "time line" somewhere, sticking only to the known bits that can be considered a FACT (such as the corruption of the pillars, or the evolution of Raziel) and keep it for reference for everyone.

Plus it would help to keep the theories consistent with what we know happens.

I'm just playing BO for the very first time now, (Thanks to the help found in this forum to run the game in a w2k machine) and I fancy, there are things in that game that have been overlooked when creating some of the greatest theories around and it's precisely because all the time traveing and all the chaos that it creates.

On a side note:
The moral of the story is: never travel back in time!

Edit: Typos here and there

[warpsavant]

Originally posted by Blue Winged Fellow

For example, I have not clear which one came first: Did the Ancients build the Pillars after they had the Soul Reaver? or did they make the Soul Reaver before creating the pillars?

Genesis of the Pillars, Formation of the Circle, the reaver is forged. This is how it is written on the Sr2 timeline.

Originally posted by Blue Winged Fellow

Another thing I don't have clear is, if the pillars choose their own, and vampires are inmortal, and originally the pillars had vampire custodians, then WHEN and WHY did the pillars started to get Human guardians?

When the Vampires are cursed by the Hylden, the become immortal. The drawback is they can no longer reproduce the "natural" way, and thus, no new vampire gaurdians can be choosen, because the Pillars choose their gaurdians from birth.

Something happens where all the cursed vampires, except Janos, eventually die out. No one really knows exactly why.

Originally posted by Blue Winged Fellow


Didn't Kain see Moebius and a mob killing Vorador when he came back in time from killing William? Then how is it that Vorador lives in BO2? (Now, this one for sure may have a logic explanation, but I don't seem to find it) ?

Yeah he did. Obviously somebody either brought Vorador back from the dead, or he was never killed in the first place. It has yet to be revealed, and probably never will be.

Originally posted by Blue Winged Fellow


So I believe we should try to compile a "time line" somewhere, sticking only to the known bits that can be considered a FACT (such as the corruption of the pillars, or the evolution of Raziel) and keep it for reference for everyone.

Plus it would help to keep the theories consistent with what we know happens.

People already have.

Originally posted by Blue Winged Fellow


I'm just playing BO for the very first time now, (Thanks to the help found in this forum to run the game in a w2k machine) and I fancy, there are things in that game that have been overlooked when creating some of the greatest theories around and it's precisely because all the time traveing and all the chaos that it creates.

Perhaps. But I doubt it, since most of the major visitors here have all played BO.

[Blue Winged Fellow]

Originally posted by warpsavant

Genesis of the Pillars, Formation of the Circle, the reaver is forged. This is how it is written on the Sr2 timeline.

Ok. But I seem to remember someone saying (maybe Janos) that the pillars served not only to maintain Nosgoth but also as a lock to keep the hylden on the other plane? That's why the corruption would made a breach through which one of the hylden could get to Nosgoth, and break all h**l loose.

If I'm right, something doesn't add up, since the reaver was used to vanquish the hylden originally, then certaily it shouldn't have been forged AFTER the pillars.

Originally posted by warpsavant

When the Vampires are cursed by the Hylden, the become immortal. The drawback is they can no longer reproduce the "natural" way, and thus, no new vampire gaurdians can be choosen, because the Pillars choose their gaurdians from birth.

Something happens where all the cursed vampires, except Janos, eventually die out. No one really knows exactly why.

It looks to me like a loophole. Maybe that was the plan of the Hylden since the beggining.

Originally posted by warpsavant

People already have.

Would you (or anyone else) mind directing me to this? I've seen bits and pieces here and there (Nosgothic Realm, thelostworlds, etc.) but they are not IMO a "just the plain facts" compilation.

Point to be made is that I believe there should be a bit of discussion on "what the facts" are. For example, relying on the memories (or lack of them) of Kain, to me doesn't feel right, since he's been busy creating paradoxes here and there, he may not "remember" the way things really happened.

am I totally lost??? Perharps that's the reason why this time with Defiance they want to let us SEE intead of "to be told" how the story goes.

[warpsavant]

If I recall correctly, the SR2 Janos just mentions the Pillars being a lock and the Reaver is the key. Its the Bo2 Janos that goes into the whole rift between realms and the banishment.

The timeline is pretty clear, the Reaver comes last. There are murals in the Light and Air Forge, that many of us believe show the actual banishing, and there is no Reaver in sight. There are other murals that show the reaver, but they don't appear to have anything to do with the banishment.

Maybe the banishing caused a rift and let the demons freely enter Nosgoth. Its possible the Ancients created the reaver to destroy the Demons the banishment let in and fix the seal they broke when they banished the Hylden in the first place. Thus the Reaver is the weapon of the vampires salvation, as Janos so eloquently put it.

The Reaver was forged with Vampiric energy, how could this be possible if the Vammpires were not yet cursed with Vampirism? They can't forge a vampiric blade before the Hylden are banished.


Alright, thats enough of that for now.


You want to see some timelines, do you? Let me see....


http://www.thelostworlds.net/


I am pretty sure there is a link or two on that site to some fan produced timelines, I've seen them there before, but I couldnt find them, so I cant tell you exactly where on the site the timelines appear.

[Apocrypha Roxy]

Warp - you said:

The Reaver was forged with Vampiric energy, how could this be possible if the Vampires were not yet cursed with Vampirism? They can't forge a vampiric blade before the Hylden are banished.


Actually, they CAN form a vampiric blade. The Ancients probably - at least in my opinion - fused the blade with vampiric energy BEFORE the curse was cast upon them. Because before they were cursed, there was no such thing as 'vampirisim'. The blood devouring aspect of the blade was just magic.

And they used this as their weapon of salvation. When you see the murals in the Elder's chamber in SR2, you'll see the winged beings - and one especially that looks like Raziel and wields the Reaver. Both depicted as holy ikons.

So Raziel - as an Ancient anyway (and he WAS an Ancient) - was the 'champion' of the winged race, who wielded the blade that won the war. During the war, probably very close toward the end, Raziel the Ancient dies in combat. The Pillars are forged right at the end of the war as the lock of Nosgoth against the Hylden. The guardians are summoned, Janos guards the Reaver, the whole 'cursed' thing happens, they slowly die out until Janos remains.

And Raziel, as the previous wielder of the Reaver, is destined to reclaim it - be it either as an actual blade or getting sucked into it.

Thus, when the Hylden cursed the Ancients, the Hylden used the magic of the other race to give the Ancients a taste of their own medicine. Hence the term used: vampire.

I'm done.

[warpsavant]

I don't have time right now Roxy, but I'll be back to let you know why that cant be so, unless someone else beats me to it. But real quickly:

Also, are you implying in some way that the Murals show Raziel as an Ancient who dies in combat and then is reincarnated as a human?

[someguysteve]

So Raziel - as an Ancient anyway (and he WAS an Ancient)

i haven't seen anything that say he was anything but a human, vampire, then a wraith thing. any ancient in any murals could be Janos for all we know. but if you know something we don't

[The Amazing Rando]

Well AR, I'll disagree, because if warp posted the info from the timeline right (too lazy to check, but I'll assume he knows how to read), Raz couldn't be using the blade during the war, then die and have the pillars raised at the end. The Pillars were made before the blade. So ha, you're theory isn't correct.

I also don't think he was an ancient, but that's just my opinion.

[warpsavant]

http://www.thelostworlds.net/Images/LoK-Timeline2.JPG

Here is a link to the official timeline, graciously provided by The Lost Worlds.net

I think the term "weapon of salvation" is misunderstood. It has nothing to do with killing Hylden, but helping the vampires cure the curse, that's their only salvation, IMO.

[Apocrypha Roxy]

... okay maybe my theory needs a bit of 'tweaking'.

On the Raz is/isn't an Ancient thing: If you see the murals in the Elder's subterrenean chamber, you will see scrawled on the walls a blue figure wielding the Reaver. If you're unsure, I think blinc has a shot of it on his site, or someone else does because they posted it here not too long ago.
I know you all agree on that one with me.
This figure has glowing eyes >hint-Razzy-hint< and hair that look unmistakably (spelling today? no good) like our beloved blue soul-snacker.
So, that's pretty much what I think. I could be wrong. Seldom am, but... first time for everything, right?


The murals don't show Raz dying and being reborn, but they do show him - or what's supposed to be him - with the blade all glowy-eyed and stuff. Then in time he dies, becomes human, gets killed by his blue self, becomes a vampire, gets chucked into the Abyss, becomes a blue thingy, and the beat goes on da-da-dum-da-dum-da-da...


Now, if the Pillars were made BEFORE the Reaver was forged, Raziel STILL could use it (as an Ancient). Obviously the Pillars took time to construct, and the Ancients had in mind precisely what they intended to do with the Hylden. So, the Pillars were there first. Okay.
Obviously, the Ancients must have been desperate to get their plan going: to turn the tide of the battle, the Reaver was forged. Raziel swung it around lopping off Hylden heads. No difference there: Hylden, Demon, Sarafan, it's all good.
Mmkay so Raz goes around slicing, dicing, and julienning (see, I can't spell!) some Hylden, something happens and he dies. But he was an Ancient. Otherwise how would Janos know who the heck he was? And why would Janos place his faith in someone if he didn't know... wait, not wording this correctly - okay if Raz was something other than one of his own kind. At least in one lifetime or other. God knows Raziel has had bushels-full of them...


See, Rando? My theory can work! It's correct! THERE'S A METHOD TO MY MADNESS!

[warpsavant]

Roxy,

Who looks more like Raziel? The statue in the fire forge, or the figure in the murals?

Can you explain why the Ancients depicted him so differently?

[The Amazing Rando]

Originally posted by Apocrypha Roxy
... okay maybe my theory needs a bit of 'tweaking'.

On the Raz is/isn't an Ancient thing: If you see the murals in the Elder's subterrenean chamber, you will see scrawled on the walls a blue figure wielding the Reaver. If you're unsure, I think blinc has a shot of it on his site, or someone else does because they posted it here not too long ago.
I know you all agree on that one with me.
This figure has glowing eyes >hint-Razzy-hint< and hair that look unmistakably (spelling today? no good) like our beloved blue soul-snacker.
So, that's pretty much what I think. I could be wrong. Seldom am, but... first time for everything, right?


The murals don't show Raz dying and being reborn, but they do show him - or what's supposed to be him - with the blade all glowy-eyed and stuff. Then in time he dies, becomes human, gets killed by his blue self, becomes a vampire, gets chucked into the Abyss, becomes a blue thingy, and the beat goes on da-da-dum-da-dum-da-da...

Gee, a blue figure with the Reaver. That couldn't just be any ancient. Hair that looks unmistakable? I don't think so, as I can point to more than one person on Earth that has hair like Raz's. He doesn't have a unique hair style, and in a race of people, there's gonna be a tendency for more than one person to have the same hair style. You know, I've seen more than two people that have blue eyes and wear their hair in a similar style-does that mean they're the same person? And if you've played BO1, the Legion of the Nemesis had swords that looked like the SR-but they weren't all real, so it could be a different sword. That's very unlikely, just another possibility (I'm not really backing my statement up, as I just don't think he's an ancient).

One more thing, I think we can all agree that many of the rest of the murals aren't necessarily a very good depiction, due to artistic liscence, so it could be any Ancient, not proving that it's Raz at all.

I think my biggest thing would be that it would just be stupid for him to have been an ancient that became a human for no reason-human to vamp is an easy transition, and vamp to wraith as well, as he was more evolved than other vamps that came back in SR1 if you removed the weapon. He was just evolved enough to shift. Ancient to human just has no good explanation IMO.

[warpsavant]

I think his evolution had nothing to do with him surviving, it was the squid that spared him from total dissolution and let him shift.

[Apocrypha Roxy]

Y'mean I'm wrong again?

Crud.

Let me try again. Uhm...

Gee, a blue figure with the Reaver. That couldn't just be any ancient. Hair that looks unmistakable? I don't think so, as I can point to more than one person on Earth that has hair like Raz's. He doesn't have a unique hair style, and in a race of people, there's gonna be a tendency for more than one person to have the same hair style. You know, I've seen more than two people that have blue eyes and wear their hair in a similar style-does that mean they're the same person?

The Reaver-wielding figure has those funky bangs/fringes that Raziel does. You know, kinda bunched and all? Then again, the figure has a helmet on... okay, so I'm wrong there. Could be any Ancient, but I still think.. somewhere in the mush of my gray matter... that it's him.

Yep, Rando, you were right on the Artistic License... but... still..


And yes, the fire-forge statue is DEFINATELY Razzy. 'Cause HE has the funky bangs.


Ancient, Human, Vamp, Wraith:

Delicious irony, is it not, that Raziel would become something/someone who would destroy a remnant of his previous incarnation?

>hint< Sarafan Raz vs. Wraith Raz >/hint<


Warp, you think Senor Calamari had anything to do with his ressurection? His evolution had nothing to do with it, of course, but it seems to me he was fated to wake up a blue thing, without any interference by Squiddy. He dropped in the Elder God's 'lap', conveniently. Everyone has an agenda... Raziel is the perfect tool - considering he's already a gullible being.

Those blind with Rage are by Destiny ensnared: I guess Raziel didn't listen the first time...

I love peacefully aruging with you people. Brightens my dreary existance. You make life worth living. Well, you and the new games coming out.

[warpsavant]

Thats what Senor Calamari said "You did not survive the abyss, Raziel. I have only spared you from total dissolution." I think he was telling the truth, with what we know about LoK-D and all.

I also dont think your idea is wrong, its your idea. I just disagree.

[Blue Winged Fellow]

[Palpatine's Voice in RotJ]

"Good, GOOD, he he he"

[/Palpatine's Voice in RotJ]

Ok. So, Pillars were 1st (but the Ancients already knew what they were going to do with the Hylden). Then Reaver is forged.

An ancient VERY SIMILAR to Raziel if not himself, becomes the champion of the force... (ooops sorry wrong story ). He dies in battle before he can be the saviour (spelling anyone?) of the ancients, and reincarnates as a Human (maybe because due to the curse he couldn't reincarnate as an Ancient/Vampire anymore???) to claim the blade again, but before he can actually do that, needs to be killed by a blue winged fellow who happens to be himself from the future, so that he can be resurrected by Kain as a vampire, develops wings, get thrown into the "swimming pool" go backs in time to kill Kain, gets stranded, goes forward in time to find out what the heck will become of nosgoth should he fail his mission, goes back in time to kill himself (his human version I mean) , and .... Wow, this gets messy by the minute!

My Guess is that the winged fellow that AR claims is Raziel (the ancient) is really the Raziel we know. He eventually goes back in time to fulfill his destiny as Nosgoth saviour in the war between the Ancients and the Hylden.

By the way warpsarvant, Señor Calamari could also had just conveniently been in the rigth place at the right time like Raz tells him in SR2.

IMO el señor calamari was some creature placed there by the demons or the Hylden just to make sure they were able to break free from the prison where they were being sent by the ancients. (The machine in BO2 rings any bell?? Don't bite my head here friends, I know that it was Janos and Kain liberated him and blah blah blah. What I'm saying is that the Hylden may have had MORE THAN ONE of those creatures) Of course, I need to refine this theory a bit more, but it makes sense to me that one of those creatures may just have been dormant under de pillars for a long long time...
Must play the game again to refresh my memory on some details.

Anyway Mr Elder would definetly be the ultimate boss to fight with Raziel, don't you think?



Edit: I keep making silly typos!