Overlooked Lines from Defiance

[TheSquid]

Some lines from Defiance get overlooked but may have lots of hidden meaning or potential. Post any here that make you or or
------------------

Hylden-possessed corpses:

This is our world, little demon. Run, little Raziel. Prepare to die!
Pathetic creature. Why should anyone know your name, Raziel?

This is the one thing that bugs me the most. How come the hylden are insulting and attacking their own champion throughout the game? Makes no sense. I know you've gotta have enemies to fight in these games, but how about adding some additional non-hylden enemies so the hylden aren't constantly trying to take down their champ like total idjits. And why would they attack him just to "keep up appearances????" It would have been better if all those hylden grunts just hadn't made an appearance in the early levels.


Mortaneus:

"Atonement."

More than one guardian specter:

"Atonement."

It's a theme, then. In Dark Prophecy, would we have heard Kain talking about

".....Atonement....." OR, if he throws us a curveball: "What? I'm supposed to 'Atone' for the mistakes of others? Forget about it. We're doing this my way."

Janos:

To sustain the Binding, we had to preserve our bloodline....As long as a single one of us stands, there is still hope.

It sounds like the vampires' very essence IS the binding. Like they sold their souls to raise the binding. (Which might be why the original guardians' souls are still hanging around, hanging around, tethered to the choice they made.) This also harkens back to Kain's "As long as one of us remains, are we not legion." (Because the binding is holding back a legion of hylden for as long as there's a single vampire soul in the world to power it). (This has also launched speculation that the Nexus Stone was meant to magnify or concentrate hylden soul power in order to match the strength of the binding and slip past it.)


Janos:

We are within the ancient citadel of the Vampire race, long ago defiled and abandoned.

Huh? Defiled long ago. By what? That big squid thing locked in the inner sanctum? By a specific hylden raid? By vampire vandals striking back at the Oracle whose advice had just gotten them all freshly cursed and running around rabid? Tell us the story, Janos buddy!


Ariel:

My spirit, united with the souls of my predecessors, is drawn here now for the final baptism of the blade.

How many spirits, exactly? Is it a meager total, like 3? Or is Kain now walking around with a zoo of ghosts inside him? Because I'd prefer that. I'd prefer if many turned human guardians had come and gone for each pillar. But most indications are that each pillar changed hands only a very small number of times.



Kain:

A disquieting stillness lay where my heart had been....How was it possible that I still lived?

This says to me that his heartless recovery is unique and not one of the normal vampire healing abilities. It wasn't something he expected to recover from.

[The Hylden]

Originally Posted by TheSquid

This is the one thing that bugs me the most. How come the hylden are insulting and attacking their own champion throughout the game? Makes no sense. I know you've gotta have enemies to fight in these games, but how about adding some additional non-hylden enemies so the hylden aren't constantly trying to take down their champ like total idjits. And why would they attack him just to "keep up appearances????" It would have been better if all those hylden grunts just hadn't made an appearance in the early levels.

Actually, I think it makes more sense that they made the early appearance, but that appearance later on is what feels a bit too much. I also think that it makes very little sense, given that they think Raziel is traitorous, that the Hylden would not try and attack Kain and take him down, themselves, when he returns to the BO1 present. They taunt him in the Demon Realm, yet there's not a sign of them. It seems like a mistake.

They call Raziel a traitor seemingly because they've been watching events unfold so far and what happened last game was Raziel basically siding with the vampires. He doesn't kill Kain when he has the chance in William's Chapel. He has nice chats with Kain and Janos, holds Janos in his arms as he dies and goes after Janos' killers, and is saved by Kain. All of this must seem to the Hylden devout followers, thinking that this was all supost to go down with their champion simply taking care of the vampires, as traitorous acts. They must be entirely dejected and thinking this guy is nothing but their enemy. Also, there appear to be two separate factions here. The Hylden Lord and the ones controlling Turel seem to still think Raziel is on their side (the HL actually doesn't care one way or the other, but thinks Raziel has at least played his role -- and I think the HL probably is guessing more than he is certain at some events, as we've discussed about his lack of foreknowledge of things later). The other grunts seems to be of a faction that has just written Raziel off and turned full force on him, like Connor Macleod's village did when he arose an immortal ( Highlander on the brain).

Mortaneus:

More than one guardian specter:

It's a theme, then.

It is, but for different reasons. Mortanius is bearing in atonement his actions against the vampires that brought about Nosgoth's peril at the Hylden being reintroduced, which he now thinks is a really, really bad thing. The vampire Guardians are bearing atonement for what Janos described as their sin against their God that drove him from them and kept them out of the wheel of fate. The others of them committed suicide to be back with their God, yet he still abandoned them. The Guardians probably have found this out in their time in Spectral, though they are also making a sacrifice, apparently, to be bound to the Spirit Forges.

In Dark Prophecy, would we have heard Kain talking about

Janos: ...As long as a single one of us stands there is still hope.

Yes, it is Interesting to note that Kain has already mimicked what another has said, in this case his vampire ancestor, Janos, when in the Chronoplast he told Raziel, "As long as a single one of us stands, we are Legion." For the vampires, they have to have one of them still alive, and that one can sire thousands, so this is really why it's inherent, it seems, within Kain and Janos. I don't believe Kain was referring to the binding of the Pillars when he said this, however, as the binding first off had failed almost 2,000 years ago.

I think that Janos, however, means ensuring that one of them still lives means that the Pillars can still be maintained by vampires, and not left to the humans to damn. The line about them passing the gift to the humans is what he follows that preceding preserving the bloodline statement you quoted. Vampires, in his view, are competent to maintain the Pillars and the binding, but humans are not.

Huh? Defiled long ago. By what? That big squid thing locked in the inner sanctum? By a specific hylden raid? By vampire vandals striking back at the Oracle whose advice had just gotten them all freshly cursed and running around rabid? Tell us the story, Janos buddy!

The Citadel endured through the war, but eventually, I'd imagine that the Hylden finally overcame it, at least to a point. You see the outer wall has been blown away and inside it's crumbing in spots. The vampires were probably under siege here and eventually had to withdraw from the bombardment. However, the important chambers sealed by the Balance Emblem still held. Also, the feral humans overrunning the place are a kind of infestation, heh. Important that, of course we can only infer that much from Janos, as he didn't apparently deem it important to give us the war's play-by-play. It would be nice to see such an event and the vampires on the retreat in general in the next game. I'd love to see the war play out, see exactly what was going on, the battle between thousands of these titans against each other, their plights, and have Kain there looking for help for the future.

Ariel:

How many spirits, exactly? Is it a meager total, like 3? Or is Kain now walking around with a zoo of ghosts inside him? Because I'd prefer that. I'd prefer if many turned human guardians had come and gone for each pillar. But most indications are that each pillar changed hands only a very small number of times.

Yeah, as we've been finally able to put to rest, that whole longevity aspect the Pillars grant ensures that there shouldn't be a huge number here. Also, I very much don't believe that those souls are within Kain. First, they were eaten by the Wraith Blade, which got an upgrade from it, but it then dispersed after it was done healing Kain and freed Raziel (can't be free if he's locked inside of Kain in my mind). If anything were remaining, though, it would be Raziel's Wraith Blade self, not any souls it ate.

Kain:
This says to me that his heartless recovery is unique and not one of the normal vampire healing abilities. It wasn't something he expected to recover from.

I've contended before that they were too quick to instil that the only reason Kain is alive is because of his nature as the Scion of Balance, as his lineage seems to be able to survive as long as their souls are still able to link with their body. However, hearts for even them prove to be their weak point, if struck, or impaled. So, removing that very organ entirely should be something that they cannot recover from. I can go with this now.

[TheSquid]

They call Raziel a traitor seemingly because they've been watching events unfold so far and what happened last game was Raziel basically siding with the vampires. He doesn't kill Kain when he has the chance in William's Chapel.

Hey that does help!

the Guardians are also making a sacrifice, apparently, to be bound to the Spirit Forges.

It's clear what Mort is atoning for. For the guardians, it's clear to me only when I think of them as guilt-ridden ghosts who stuck around, not as sinners. Like any traditional poltergiests, they remained in our world because of unfinished business and strong emotional ties to the past. They are ghosts of regret. So they remain behind out of guilt, to atone for what happened to their people after they went too far in their war effort and got everyone cursed. They didn't really ever commit a sin against EG. (They didn't intend to go against the wheel, they just caught a really bad break. WHOA! Was summoning the pillars a sin??? It did make them very long-lived! Not truly immortal, though, so the Wheel religion should have still accepted Guardians because they still had an appointment with death. WHOA! THat's right, they never got a chance to offend anyone with their longevity because all ancients were cursed right after the pillars got erected.) But they were the ones who made the decision that got everyone damned so they can't forgive themselves. It's EG who commited the 'sin' of mistreating them. After they were diseased he revealed his uncaring callousness by abandoning his people like one of those husbands who can't handle the stress when his wife gets cancer and instead of staying with her to the end he leaves to go on with his selfish life.

....As for what Kain might have to atone for...... he turned his back for all those centuries on his Balance duties. True, as a vampire he did the right thing (kept hope alive for a total restoration), but as Balance he did the wrong thing (allowed the world to sicken and everyone in it to suffer). That's a biggee. Now that he's back on the job he'll have to come to grips with that. All those centuries of nosgoth wasting away are on him. Rocky would use that as motivation during his training montage while getting in shape for the rematch against EG.

Also, I very much don't believe that those (Balance) souls are within Kain. First, they were eaten by the Wraith Blade, which got an upgrade from it

Good point. But I'd like to think those souls permanently attuned Kain's mind as they passed through him so he's officially the scion now. It'd be nice to see their collective knowledge guiding his hand somehow later on. Not via possession (we've had too much of that) or a disembodied voice like Obe Wan (cheesy). I'm imagining more like just a gentle buzz in his brain at key moments like when he walks into a scionic temple for the first time, and all of a sudden he'd simply know what to do as the Scion in key situations, you know? Because, with that information, he's being 'armed for his true endeavor' and all that jazz. Maybe a brief flash of white energy in his eyes to show he was being guided by higher purpose instead of possessed by something green and lowly. I'd see that as fitting in with those Balance souls' goal of "reuniting what was set asunder."



Ariel:

....you must unite what has been set asunder...

Raziel:

The two become one - both Soul Reavers - together - and the Scion of Balance is healed.

This ^ Raz line really struck me as a majorly overlooked detail on the last playthrough of Defiance. It sounds more like a permanent reunion of the two reavers than what we've come to believe. We usually speak of the sword-soul fading away and finding its final peace:

The Hylden: it then dispersed after it was done healing Kain and freed Raziel (can't be free if he's locked inside of Kain in my mind).

So, what we're saying officially is that the 2 Reavers were both handed over to Kain, but the Reaver Reunion only lasted for a brief moment. One of the reavers was only a passing spiritual gift that changed Kain and then dissipated. Leaving Kain with only 1 soul reaver, not 2. ...... uuuuuuuuuuuuuh, the Raziel quote speaks of 2 reavers AND healing. He doesn't say 1 reaver + healing the scion. He speaks of combining 2 reavers "together" in the person of the scion. And we know from past games that carrying two reavers is better than one if you want to get stuff done. (The scion is supposed to get stuff done.) What if the thing that makes the Scion so special and capable is that he's permanently carrying 2 reavers around with him and thus is able to change whatever needs changing? That'd justify the vampires' long wait for this Scion guy to finally emerge. And it'd be good ammo to have against gods. Whenever the deck was impossibly stacked, Kain could just go ahead and do the impossible when needed. (And it wouldn't be one of those hated deus ex machinas, either, because the Scion would be using known LOK physics for the win. That'd be a nice change, considering his recent wins have been coming out of nowhere like the unexplained coma survival of BO2 and the unexplained scion resurrection of Defiance.)

Oh well. I don't expect to convert the world on this one. So, in the official version, then, the things that had been "set asunder" were actually Kain being unable to do his duties as Balance Guardian because of how their "relationship" had been sundered. So Raziel fixed that by healing Kain who can now once again be a Balance Guardian in good standing, using the sword to unlock stuff. Okay.

[Strands Of Night]

Havent had much time to post lately So apologies on posting in an untimely manner

Kain in the Sarafan stronghold, approaches his first locked door:

This passage undoubtedly led to the Time Streamer. My prey was nearly in my grasp. But the door had been sealed by a blessed barrier. As I approached, the Reaver resonated in response. Perhaps its dark sorcery could dispel these holy barriers.

While vampires in most fiction are commonly "unholy;" being repelled by crosses and holy items, never once did I consider any of the vampires in LoK to be evil by nature; simply cursed. Kain's VO at this door suggests otherwise. (Or is this holy barrier simply a glorified lock that won't let anyone pass?)

Was this "unholiness" something imposed by the Hylden curse, or was it something innate to the Ancients, passed to their sons (And Kain through the Heart of Darkness)? Or is it something that only affects turned vampires who were once human, or necro-vamps raised from the dead (or only Kain, as he falls technically falls into every caegory)?

So if Kain (and all vampires) is innately evil, perhaps the mural Raziel discovers in the catacombs of Avernus points the the truth.

History is written by the victors. Beneath the vaults of Avernus I discovered scenes that told a familiar story, but from a very different point of view. This was the work of the enemy race, and revealed what the Vampire histories had conveniently omitted – how the noble Vampires, god-ridden and righteous, had started the wars that would destroy both races – victor and vanquished alike. Their adversaries opposed the Vampires’ god, and refused to submit to the Wheel of Fate. For this they were banished. I now understood the poetic irony of their curse. And my resemblance to the Vampires’ enemy no longer seemed so accidental.

Could the vampires be the true enemy, as servants of the Elder God, trying to force all of Nosgoth into their wheel?



Rolling pretty far off topic, and into a stoy concept (My fingers just dont stop... sorry):

Maybe this is in bad taste, but I find it very compelling to think that we (as Kain/Raziel) have been "brainwashed," and have been basically fighting as the Nazis to oppress the Jews. Not because I think that it's okay, but because it is a sad, and ugly thing that was done to an entire generation of Germans. Every facet of their social life saying Jews are the enemy (like the hylden). Only too late do they realize their mistake. It's the ugliest and hardest story to teach us to make our own decisions and never jump onto the band-wagon without knowing its true destination. And I think LoK is the perfect medium to tell that story. Five installments and we still dont know if EG is the true evil. It could easily be the Ancients and vampires.... us! We could be the black hole destroying Nosgoth!

Imagine you've been fighing all your life to oppress a foe, only to realize after you have nearly destroyed them that you were fighting on the wrong side the whole time. Imagine how that would impact you mentally and emotinally. I think it would make for a very powerful and moving story without pulling in real life biases, races, or religions.

[The Hylden]

Originally Posted by TheSquid

It's clear what Mort is atoning for. For the guardians, it's clear to me only when I think of them as guilt-ridden ghosts who stuck around, not as sinners. Like any traditional poltergiests, they remained in our world because of unfinished business and strong emotional ties to the past. They are ghosts of regret. So they remain behind out of guilt, to atone for what happened to their people after they went too far in their war effort and got everyone cursed. They didn't really ever commit a sin against EG. (They didn't intend to go against the wheel, they just caught a really bad break. WHOA! Was summoning the pillars a sin??? It did make them very long-lived! Not truly immortal, though, so the Wheel religion should have still accepted Guardians because they still had an appointment with death. WHOA! THat's right, they never got a chance to offend anyone with their longevity because all ancients were cursed right after the pillars got erected.) But they were the ones who made the decision that got everyone damned so they can't forgive themselves. It's EG who commited the 'sin' of mistreating them. After they were diseased he revealed his uncaring callousness by abandoning his people like one of those husbands who can't handle the stress when his wife gets cancer and instead of staying with her to the end he leaves to go on with his selfish life.

Janos states that their immortality from being cursed is what turned the EG from them, as they were removed from the Wheel's cleansing of birth dead and rebirth. According to that thinking, which the rest of the Ancients also had, they committed a huge sin by simply being alive and cursed. Considering that they weren't accepted into the Wheel even after their death would prove to the Guardians that they have sinned and need to atone. Their atonement was to sacrifice their very souls to turn on those Forges, apparently.

Good point. But I'd like to think those souls permanently attuned Kain's mind as they passed through him so he's officially the scion now.

Problem is, Amy said he already was the Scion, officially, and it was his nature as the Scion that allowed him to still be alive and kicking in the Demon Realm after Raziel tore out the HoD. That was all before Raziel healed him with the Spirit Reaver, so no souls were passed inside him to make Kain the Scion.

This ^ Raz line really struck me as a majorly overlooked detail on the last playthrough of Defiance. It sounds more like a permanent reunion of the two reavers than what we've come to believe. We usually speak of the sword-soul fading away and finding its final peace:
So, what we're saying officially is that the 2 Reavers were both handed over to Kain, but the Reaver Reunion only lasted for a brief moment. One of the reavers was only a passing spiritual gift that changed Kain and then dissipated. Leaving Kain with only 1 soul reaver, not 2. ...... uuuuuuuuuuuuuh, the Raziel quote speaks of 2 reavers AND healing. He doesn't say 1 reaver + healing the scion. He speaks of combining 2 reavers "together" in the person of the scion.

This visually also used to confuse almost everyone, including myself the first play-through (one of the few unfortunate unclear visuals in these cutscenes that should have been better presented, in my opinion), as it does look like the Soul Reaver has two Reavers going around and in it, with the Spirit Reaver Wraith Blade's yellow and the blue of Raz as the new Wraith Blade undeniably present around the Sword. It sure was a mistake, apparently, because the creators had to answer that two reavers are not in the sword and to clarify as they did. The dialogue doesn't help, no. However, in the moment that Raziel is healing Kain, the Spirit Reaver, seen in these pics






...is going through Kain's chest and slinking partially down his arm over to the hilt of the sword to pull Raziel into it. In that moment, the two Reavers were one, just as they had been in SR2's ending, where the Wraith Blade did the same thing in order to pull Raziel into the sword. However, once Kain is healed and Raziel passes on into the sword, the Wraith Blade is seen no more:



...and the creators say that it dissipates within Kain and simultaneously frees Raziel of his endless cyclical destiny. The only way that happens is if the Wraith Blade/Spirit Reaver has now moved on from this plane, or perhaps all planes, entirely.

What if the thing that makes the Scion so special and capable is that he's permanently carrying 2 reavers around with him and thus is able to change whatever needs changing?

Nothing in Nosgoth is that simple.

Originally Posted by Strands Of Night

While vampires in most fiction are commonly "unholy;" being repelled by crosses and holy items, never once did I consider any of the vampires in LoK to be evil by nature; simply cursed. Kain's VO at this door suggests otherwise. (Or is this holy barrier simply a glorified lock that won't let anyone pass?)

Was this "unholiness" something imposed by the Hylden curse, or was it something innate to the Ancients, passed to their sons (And Kain through the Heart of Darkness)? Or is it something that only affects turned vampires who were once human, or necro-vamps raised from the dead (or only Kain, as he falls technically falls into every caegory)?

So if Kain (and all vampires) is innately evil, perhaps the mural Raziel discovers in the catacombs of Avernus points the the truth.

Kain also thought that vampires were unholy in BO2, and Janos corrected him then, making Kain balk at thinking of vampirism as a mark of divinity. However, to Janos then and in SR2 and Defiance, vampires are holy, almost God-like beings. Their fall from God's grace in the curse of being immortal, however, was something they consider evil from the Hylden. What Kain is more likely doing here is being slightly sarcastic, as from the Sarafan's and the Circle's (especially Moebius'), and all of humanity, basically, point of view, vampires are unholy, evil things that must be exterminated. Their magical barriers, therefore, would be considered holy barriers against the evil vampire plague. Kain undeniably considers vampire magic dark sorcery, however, so I think that he, to some extent, relishes in the thought of being thought of as evil and unholy. It probably amuses him

Could the vampires be the true enemy, as servants of the Elder God, trying to force all of Nosgoth into their wheel?



Rolling pretty far off topic, and into a stoy concept (My fingers just dont stop... sorry):

Maybe this is in bad taste, but I find it very compelling to think that we (as Kain/Raziel) have been "brainwashed," and have been basically fighting as the Nazis to oppress the Jews. Not because I think that it's okay, but because it is a sad, and ugly thing that was done to an entire generation of Germans. Every facet of their social life saying Jews are the enemy (like the hylden). Only too late do they realize their mistake. It's the ugliest and hardest story to teach us to make our own decisions and never jump onto the band-wagon without knowing its true destination. And I think LoK is the perfect medium to tell that story. Five installments and we still dont know if EG is the true evil. It could easily be the Ancients and vampires.... us! We could be the black hole destroying Nosgoth!

Imagine you've been fighing all your life to oppress a foe, only to realize after you have nearly destroyed them that you were fighting on the wrong side the whole time. Imagine how that would impact you mentally and emotinally. I think it would make for a very powerful and moving story without pulling in real life biases, races, or religions.

One of the points of this story is to show that no-one is purely good, or evil and that everyone's hands are certainly dirty. The Hylden have their own unethical practices, but the vampries were not right in what they did, either by trying to convert the Hylden by force, or by their subsequent banishing of this entire race to a veritable hell.

[TheSquid]

re: Are Vampires the Nazis?

no one in this story is purely good or evil and everyone's hands are certainly dirty.

Another way of saying it: everybody in this story has taken their turn at being the Jews, and everybody has had their turn being the Nazis. Nosgoth is all about equal opportunity and changing with the tides of time. I did however become slightly nervous the first time I saw that this game had a following in Germany. You know what I'm saying? Just a natural human reaction. (Strands, your concern of perhaps being on the wrong side is similar to when I say the hylden need to be re-integrated into Nosgoth before vampires can have a clear conscience. If all we get in the end is a reborn vampire regime, they'd still be tainted by their horrible past and haunted by what they did to the enemy race. I don't know if I want to 'win' that horrible way by re-locking the hylden away forevermore. I think the curse is symbolic. Their bodies were turned rotten to match the inner horror of their tainted souls after what they did to the hylden. So they shouldn't ever expect to cure the curse without first healing the hylden. In fact, those things would probably be tied together thematically if we live long enough to see the next game--- LOK: Hell Quest.)



Re: how the Scion resurrection took place before Kain's super-baptism by balance souls--
Raziel's activation of the spirit forge summoned all the pillar's men to put humpty together again, and the scion awoke as part of the circus of activity. Doesn't matter much to me if he's always been the scion or if he only just now awoke as the scion, but the way he rose is our first big sign that he's more than just an emperor. Up until that moment not even Kain really knew for sure if he was this figure of prophecy or not. So to me his super-baptism at the spirit forge is what gives him the credentials to call himself the scion, and raising up heartless to answer the forge's call was like a rebirth into his new role. (He might have been a dormant Scion all along but wasn't yet playing the role.) So both the raising and the baptism are proofs he's the chosen one. 2 stops on his supernatural journey, like the stations of the cross.



Guardians sinned only from Elder's point of view, and his POV isn't valid! 'twas the hylden who "commited" the act of cursing the ancients, not the guardians who sinned. If their act of sin was to then remain alive longer than the other cursed suicides because they were trying to lead vampires out of the nightmare, that's morally defensible. So I'd fault the unforgiving god for abandoning them when he should have made an emergency allowance for them since it wasn't their fault. The fact Elder didn't budge and stuck to his strict wheel policy means he never really cared for his flock in the first place but had only been feeding, hence he was not a legit god deserving of worship and any 'sins' committed against him don't count because the whole thing was a deception not a religion. So there are only sufferers here, not sinners. Anyways, after they died they should have been accepted by the wheel like the rest of their people were. But they weren't admitted to the afterlife, so something about them was different. Either the god did lock them out of the afterlife as sinners (because he blamed them for everything going to hell, seeing their pillars as an affront to his own level of pretend godhood).... OR it's more like what I said above: The pillars were summoned with the god's blessing, the guardians caught a bad break, were cursed, got abandoned, died, and then their specters stayed behind out of guilt and remorse until they were able to pass the torch to the vampire hero destined to sweep up their mess. (Raziel looked like a demon so they gave him a cold reception the same way Ariel and Mortaneus did).

Nothing in Nosgoth is that simple.

The reaver puzzle was very difficult to solve! It took several games! But now that it is solved, the reaver's vast temporal equation should = a 'simple' resolution of things. Not 'easy' necessarily, but an understandable path to vampire victory that's now in clear sight (which is what the prophets put all their effort into setting up). Now if all the prophecies really have gone off the rails as our vampire characters believe, this Victory Through Reaver thing may no longer hold true. The outcome may be more in doubt than the prophets expected. But Kain's entire thrust has been to restore his rightful destiny, so he too believes that in doing so he's put vampires back on track. The ride just got real rickety there for a while. But we've earned some simple. Or we've at least earned a break point in our grand tennis game with EG. We've at least forced him to try and change history again, because history's scoreboard currently reads "Advantage Vampires".

[TheSquid]

Possessed Mortanius:

you (Raziel) are indeed overdue. But it no longer matters in the least. With or without you - we will prevail.

Huh? They don't really need their champ? Because they've got other things going on now besides just him. Hmmmmm, Other Stuff like.... the main invasion from BO2 which we know failed, but also there's the secret agenda we see the Seer working for, which hasn't been revealed yet. Or are they on track to win no matter what because their plan from Dark Prophecy is already in motion and they privately see that as their best shot? So at this point anything Raziel can do for them is like a bonus!?!?! The possessed Janos also made it sound like Raziel had provided the hylden with extra bonus points above and beyond the call of duty. HL says "We've already won" thanks to only Raz's efforts. I think they did really need some help from Raziel, because of his fate changing power which forces everyone to try and influence him in order to be on the winning side. But the big thing we're perhaps overlooking here is they may not be relying on Raziel as completely as Amy led us to believe. "We've already won" doesn't have to mean "You were our only hope and you came through for us." It could mean "Wow, thanks! Our team was already poised to take the field anyway, but it'll be a lot easier now that you rigged the fight for us!"



During the hero fight:
Holding on to Raziel's arm, Raziel's soul begins to drain out of him and through Kain, to reach the material Reaver. They are both astonished....Raziel plunges his left hand into Kain's chest.

It is indeed a paradoxical moment during which the heart is removed. So what if we were never explicitly told this. We shouldn't have needed to be told. The SR2 ending already established everything for us. It's our job to recognize that this heart-ripping moment shares all the same signs of being done during paradoxical flux, when anything is possible and fates can change. Is there a larger significance to all this? Does it make any difference for the heart to be ripped out paradoxically as opposed to getting ripped out during a normal moment in time? It would have been nice if this had been explained by narration. But the game ended before any character had enough time to learn the answer to this mystery, and if EG knows the significance of it he's certainly not going to share secrets with his greatest enemy Kain. So we're left in the dark. Though I suspect Kain's unforeseen stealth resurrection is one benefit of having his heart ripped while in temporal flux.

[The Hylden]

Originally Posted by TheSquid

Guardians sinned only from Elder's point of view, and his POV isn't valid!

No, they sinned very much from their point of view (not from my point of view, or yours, mind you ). They interpreted their God's silence and their immortality as a sin against God, and many of them committed suicide to be back in his good graces. Yes, their reasoning was flawed, but they didn't know that. I don't even think that the EG cared one way, or the other. He knew that when they became immortal, the vampires were no longer food to manipulate, so they probably were no longer worth his time. All of that apostate stuff and making them out to be so bad to Raziel is just grandstanding, more than likely, than his actual thoughts on them. He also knows the prophecy they craft foretells a being, Kain, wielding a sword that can actually hurt him (using Raz's soul inside of it), so there's that reason to shun them utterly, lol

OR it's more like what I said above: The pillars were summoned with the god's blessing, the guardians caught a bad break, were cursed, got abandoned, died, and then their specters stayed behind out of guilt and remorse until they were able to pass the torch to the vampire hero destined to sweep up their mess. (Raziel looked like a demon so they gave him a cold reception the same way Ariel and Mortaneus did).

Remember, though, that the Ancients made those forges to house specifically those Guardians' souls. These Guardians therefore had to have known that they wouldn't pass on into the wheel and would linger. Their tombs right near the spirit vessels aren't there just by coincidence. Sometime before their death, they had to have realized that they can no longer be admitted to the wheel, or in other words, be eaten by their God's spectral puppets, most likely... I'd wager the Death Guardian would have been able to see the fates of those that committed suicide and told the others.

The reaver puzzle was very difficult to solve! It took several games! But now that it is solved, the reaver's vast temporal equation should = a 'simple' resolution of things. Not 'easy' necessarily, but an understandable path to vampire victory that's now in clear sight (which is what the prophets put all their effort into setting up). Now if all the prophecies really have gone off the rails as our vampire characters believe, this Victory Through Reaver thing may no longer hold true. The outcome may be more in doubt than the prophets expected. But Kain's entire thrust has been to restore his rightful destiny, so he too believes that in doing so he's put vampires back on track. The ride just got real rickety there for a while. But we've earned some simple. Or we've at least earned a break point in our grand tennis game with EG. We've at least forced him to try and change history again, because history's scoreboard currently reads "Advantage Vampires".

On the contrary, Kain doesn't look very much at the end of Defiance like he knows what to do next, and his monologue goes along with that. He's got the sword, but if it were so simple, he wouldn't be standing there going, [extrapolating] "Well, Raziel now gave me hope again, bitter-tasting though it is... What to do with it?" I say we and he have only just begun the hardest length of the journey. It gets hardest before the end, not simpler and easier, and there should be more twists and turns before the end to keep us, the loving fans, on the edge of our seats, wondering if Kain will make it, if Nosgoth will, if the EG is truly a tasty treat when fried -- all of that! I don't want a simple journey until the end, where only then we wonder if it will work. It doesn't' fit with the narrative laid out in all of those other games. Even BO1 had many twists, turns and was rough on Kain from start to finish, so it's not just about how hard Raziel had it making this Reaver puzzle work.

Huh? They don't really need their champ? Because they've got other things going on now besides just him. Hmmmmm, Other Stuff like.... the main invasion from BO2 which we know failed, but also there's the secret agenda we see the Seer working for, which hasn't been revealed yet.

Well, I think he's a bit boastful here. He absolutely does need Raziel to do his magic on the Scion and take him out. If Raziel doesn't get that heart back, then his line here about "This one grows weak, but we will soon have a stronger vessel" won't happen. Janos can only be raised if Raziel wins and does what the HL wants him to do, so this "with, or without you" stuff is sounding like a bunch of bologna.

Or are they on track to win no matter what because their plan from Dark Prophecy is already in motion and they privately see that as their best shot?

Well, whatever it was, wasn't, according to BO2, lol

During the hero fight:
Holding on to Raziel's arm, Raziel's soul begins to drain out of him and through Kain, to reach the material Reaver. They are both astonished....Raziel plunges his left hand into Kain's chest.

Kain is astonished. Raziel is just royally ticked.

It is indeed a paradoxical moment during which the heart is removed. So what if we were never explicitly told this. We shouldn't have needed to be told. The SR2 ending already established everything for us. It's our job to recognize that this heart-ripping moment shares all the same signs of being done during paradoxical flux, when anything is possible and fates can change.

No, it's missing the moment of vertigo. That is the paradoxical moment seen in SR2. It's different than the earlier paradoxical moments, where there was already a Raziel in the sword, and so there were three of him at one time. Here, it takes a bit to get that moment up and running.

At the end of the game, Raziel first has to sit there weakening, cursing Kain, realizing finally what's going on. Kain tells him not to fight it, but to give into it. Raziel gets too weak to hold on and just as he's about to let go, the vertigo happens, when his twinned soul is probably in perfect balance in and outside the reaver blade. This is the moment that he says Kain was waiting for. Up until then, even with Raziel draining into the blade, Kain could not act.

Here, in Avernus, Raziel absolutely does not let it come to this point. He gives his Vae Victus! charge into Kain's chest before this moment of complete weakening could happen. So no, I do not think this is a moment where fates were able to be changed except by Raziel, who could always choose to do whatever no matter if it were a paradoxical moment, or not. Raziel's actions have been shrouded to Moebius, according to him, since the beginning of the game, so I don't think it was this one moment only. Since Kain saved him at the end of SR2, Raziel's choices have left time in a bit of flux, not quite settled yet, it seems, on a true path. Kain sort of says this in Avernus with his "The coin is still turning, Raziel."

[TheSquid]

2 or 3 Raziels required for temporal flux:
splitting hairs. There were only 2 required in the initial (main) paradox in the series. And the paradox at the end of SR2 had an identical situation to what was brewing during the fight in Defiance. (Wraith + WB + half-transferred soul into the reaver). The only difference being Defiance didn't explicitly show us the temporal flux. But we know the drill by then. Raz could easily have struck during the instant of it.

the coin is no longer turning:
that's why amy was able to leave in good conscience, because that leg of the saga has been completed. the all-important coin metaphor has concluded when Raziel made his final decision. So that should produce a path. Kain doesn't know what it is yet, and EG will try to obscure it from view, but that will fail. Kain is hopeful at the end of LOKD because he senses his aimlessness is about to end at last. It's now possible for the scion to hit upon this proper path and either blaze a trail to victory or find an already existing yellow brick road that's part of the new timeline he's already created (something is now ready to be accomplished). Vampires now have traction and can start tackling the problem that up until now had them spinning their wheels unable to do anything about their fate. So when I said a simple conclusion now lies ahead of our 'hero', that's because multiple possible futures have now resolved into one, which is preferable if that future serves you. That doesn't mean it's an easy path, just a do-able one. Which is different. Simplified. Like finally Kain has an actual assignment to sink his teeth into. We both want more of the heady content and challenges. But accomplishments are easier once you're up and running, which vamps now are. The challenges may get tougher too, but you're meeting them at speed and have also improved your own chances to bust through the roadblocks. (I also agree that it should get toughest near the finish line, due to some renewed EG crap that's just flat out daunting.)

New one:
Kain:

The Heart of Darkness must remain undiscovered. Great harm will come of its use.

He's still on this kick, from SR2, that Janos must not be raised. Why? Subspecies Racism? (meaning that he's pro-necro and doesn't want to deal with any other species of vampire becoming resurgent? --> Does he foresee a vampiric civil war?) Or is it a deeper concern for the planet that drives Kain to go to Avernus to shut down this Heart of Darkness business? That EG time portal he jumped through could have been a watery death trap for all he knew. So he's definitely troubled enough to take big risks. Either there's something obviously bad about raising Janos which isn't yet obvious to us, or else he's seen something very bad in his "new memories" that's causing him great concern. He repeatedly voices the same concern about keeping the Heart out of play! If he does now remember something we don't know about yet, it had to happen in Scion Kain's past for it to be part of his new memories. (It can't be something the current Kain encounters in the next game). So the middle era of history was perhaps victimized by the events of Dark Prophecy. Whatever happens, Kain still lives long enough to greet Raziel's return and then come back in time with Raz the same as he always did. But aside from that, the hylden could have succeeded in doing "Great harm" to the world and to history. We just don't know. I believe great harm would have to mean more than the BO2 invasion we've seen, because the only unresolved suffering that resulted from BO2 is Janos getting stranded in hell. And Kain probably wouldn't shed too many tears over that.

It would have been an interesting Dark Prophecy plotline if a "middle era" hylden invasion forced Young Kain's empire into early decline and he only barely managed to keep his appointment with the reborn Raziel wraith. The two of them would then have fled into the past because hylden world domination forced them to abandon that future era. The scion would be forced to give up any hope of fixing the future with its totally unforgiving hylden owners. Kain would focus instead on the ancient world to see if he could prevent the two species from ever getting into the war that trainwrecked history. He'd pursue this even knowing that success would likely mean being expelled from the timeline, because he's a product of the great war so his own existence would be wiped out by any timeline that no longer included the war. But he couldn't let EG win, so his anger at the true enemy would drive him on. And of course in the end Kain would beat the odds. He'd find a way to stay alive by beating up EG and taking from the squid some kind of "immunity to fatal paradox" power. The squid, no longer shielded from fatal paradox, would immediately get wiped out by it in place of Kain. Elder would be left holding the bag, and Time (the LOK cavalry) would rush in to convict him and wash him away.

Going back now to the existing canon from the games we have:
It'd help things a lot (explaining the "we've already won" comment and excusing the hylden for their poor performance in BO2) if the middle era hylden threat from Dark Prophecy somehow sets up a certain invasion date in the future. Like it starts a countdown to when the barrier will simply fail, plain and simple, and on that inevitable day in the post-SR future era, all hell breaks loose. (Which justifies why Janos 'must not be raised'.)

[The Hylden]

Originally Posted by TheSquid

2 or 3 Raziels required for temporal flux:
splitting hairs. There were only 2 required in the initial (main) paradox in the series.

No, it's not splitting hairs. It's in fact the rules set up by SR2. Not just gameplay mechanics, but actual dialogue telling us the difference. From the first time Raziel enters William's Chapel in SR2, to the first paradox change that happens, the vertigo he experiences is distinct. He's carrying his own soul on his arm, and you have one of him already inside of the physical Reaver. Three of the same free will soul are always present.

At the end of SR2, Raziel and his wraith blade self have to duke it out quite a bit before he finally almost loses hold, and then and only then, made absolutely clear by Raziel in his monologue, the familiar vertigo happens. It's not just a "oh yeah, let's make it more dramatic this time." effect, or something. It's made clear to us the reasons why these moments happen in the first place, that it's Raziel's own two souls paradoxically inside and outside of the blade, both competing for control and time simply cannot continue to chart a plotted course until one of them wins out.

It's also why Raziel notes earlier where Janos presents the blade to Raziel, that he feels nothing. No vertigo, no distortion, and it's confusing to him. It's also a hint to us. Things are different without a soul inside of that blade already. These aren't small points. It's part of the very plot.

You can think of it like every time a new soul of Raziel is entered into the mix with free will to attack the other, the level of flux and potential destruction increase exponentially. Two souls with Raziel's wraith blade self on his arm, without the business end away from Raz, aren't enough. He gets entangled within the Reaver blade struggle and the vertigo eventually will appear when all variables line up. When you already have a soul within the blade, well, you don't even need to get to this point. Time is already in flux as Raziel gets within a certain proximity of the blade. I'd hate to see what would happen if you added a fourth soul. The entire world would be in flux 24/7, perhaps, or maybe time would just expel Raz altogether.

This also is yet another reason why the infinite soul theory people have now and then cannot work.

I do think that the moments, as I've always stated, in Defiance during these meetings should have been more clear, even with simply a line of dialogue, for goodness sakes. Originally playing the game, many I am sure, including me, were wondering why we weren't seeing any distortion. You have to think about it, and it should have been clear. But then, so should it have been clearer the color of the Spirit Reaver he forges later, which is the same color as the Earth Reaver in the cutscene, but is the light blue-white in the game; so too should have been clearer the angle we see Raziel with his hand on Janos' chest after putting his heart back in, that it's not Raziel's wraith blade energy that jumpstarts Janos -- something that can be confused to have happened, given the angle. So too should they have had a better angle at the end of Defiance to show the wraith blade was healing Kain and that it was pulling Raziel into the sword… Or, how about not using both Raziel's blueish soul energy and the wraith blade's yellow (why it was yellow at that point, also, is another one…) both glowing around the blade after Raziel is sucked in. both souls aren't int here, so why make it confusing like they are? Etc…

Speaking of the end, it's also a moment where Raziel has no distortion going into the blade. It's also different significantly from the rest of the times when distortion has been seen in SR2. This is the moment that Raziel never fights going in. He chooses to, so he never fights his other self. Time has nothing to be in flux from.

And the paradox at the end of SR2 had an identical situation to what was brewing during the fight in Defiance. (Wraith + WB + half-transferred soul into the reaver). The only difference being Defiance didn't explicitly show us the temporal flux. But we know the drill by then. Raz could easily have struck during the instant of it.

But he couldn't. He'd have had to have been at the point he was in SR2:

Raziel:
You!

Kain approaches, watching Raziel with intense fascination. Raziel cries out in anguish -

Raziel:
Are you enjoying this, Kain?!

Kain: (intense)
Don't fight it, Raziel...
Give in to it...

Raziel: (in agony)
Was this your destiny for me, all along?!

Kain urges him intently -

Kain:
Trust me...

Raziel's strength is fading; he begins to collapse.

Raziel V.O.:
I felt myself weakening... unable to hold on any longer.
The Reaver was too strong... the compulsion to simply let go too great…

Out of strength, Raziel surrenders his will. As he nears the brink of oblivion, a fluttering distortion tangibly begins, and Raziel approaches a dawning revelation -

Raziel V.O.:
And then... a growing sense of vertigo, and the familiar displacement...
... the paradoxical moment when my twinned soul hovered both outside and inside the Reaver blade...
This was the instant - the glimmer of temporal distortion - Kain had been counting on all along.
This was the edge of the coin - the minute flicker of probability upon which Kain had gambled everything.

Like I said, it's not insignificant, but a major stated moment here! Kain has to literally wait for the moment to begin. There's too much going on in this huge moment to be chalked up to just an insignificant rule of the paradoxes, one that can be discarded in the next game at will.

Raziel in Defiance barely starts to get pulled inside before he lashes out at Kain and certainly isn't anywhere near as weak as he has to get to in SR2. He acts before this moment. And there's not only no vertigo leading up to this point, but there's no reshuffling of time that would have had both Kain and he reeling from it, were Raziel removing Kain's heart not to have been already destined. This is simply how time was already to play out.

the coin is no longer turning:
that's why amy was able to leave in good conscience, because that leg of the saga has been completed. the all-important coin metaphor has concluded when Raziel made his final decision. So that should produce a path.

I know that. I said it might have been still turning until Raziel made that decision, which is not yet in the fight at Avernus.

Kain: He's still on this kick, from SR2, that Janos must not be raised. Why?

As you and Strands of Knight note, it's being promoted like it's to stop events of BO2, which do not on the surface make sense, since Kain took care of business then when he was younger. What also doesn't make sense is that, if Kain needs Janos in any way to help with his dilemma, then why does he want Janos to remain dead? I can understand not wanting him to fall into the Hylden's hands, but he doesn't want Janos to even be living, apparently. Unless he's banking on reviving Janos, himself, on his own terms later on. However, that assumes that Kain can find his body later on, and find the HoD, that he tells Raziel he's never even looked for… Lot of iffy things to that plan, Kain, if that's what it was…

That EG time portal he jumped through could have been a watery death trap for all he knew. So he's definitely troubled enough to take big risks.

This is another thing that's a bit rushed in nature in Defiance, unfortunately. It truly doesn't make any sense for Kain to do this. Why use the EG's portal here? Why does he say "But in the end, what choice did I have?"

How about this choice: tell that "Oracle" "No thanks," walk right out of there and teleport/batfly back to the location of the Chronoplast, which he absolutely knows where it is… No matter how desperate the situation is, for Kain, he's actually got 500 years before Raziel needs to be stopped, so it's not like he needed to jump into the portal right then and there, or he'd miss his shot… None of that truly makes any sense on Kain's part. Believe me, you all know I love the series and I do love Defiance, of course, but I must see faults where they lie.

Originally Posted by Strands Of Night

In BO2 this vessel is used to power The Mass which we are told is a Hylden weapon that can destroy entire races.

So in my eyes great harm did come from the recovery of the Heart. Total disaster was still avoided thanks to BO2 Kain.

That's just it, though. He kills the Mass and stops the disaster, and so it doesn't affect elder Kain that we can see one iota. Kain wouldn't care about which humans, or vampires, are killed under which circumstances here. He shouldn't care about anything that doesn't threaten him restoring Nosgoth from the corruption, or restoring his own fate. Anyway, something else has to be here as a threat we're just not seeing.

Originally Posted by TheSquid

like BO2 was nothing more than a burp in time.

lol, that's pretty much what it should be to Kain, so yup, it's something else we're not privy to. I think you could certainly make something still happen that would need to be dealt with. I am sure we all have some theory on that, or some ideas. However, unlike BO2's Kain needing to stop it, elder Kain must in perhaps the same time as his younger self is starting to raise his own empire. Or, perhaps it happens after the fall of the brothers of Raziel and after elder Kain leaves the scene in SR1's future. Who knows...

[TheSquid]

And after all that, it's still what I said.

the ingredients were there for flux, it could have easily been a paradox which they chose to gloss over. To make it so, all the next game has to do is say it was so.

If the space shuttle is launching for the 2nd time, you'll still see the whole launch sequence on the news. If it's the 36th launch, expect to see condensced footage. Same with paradoxes. Also, showing it this way increased the drama of that moment. For half a second some viewers were fooled into thinking Kain might really be dead. If you'd shown a paradox openly, then people would be openly thinking about how reality was going to be bent to bring Kain back. That moment would lose its feeling of finality, instead becoming minimized, seen as the beginning of some predictable process and not the end of a hero. This would have stolen the thunder from the later scion surprise. So to maintain the surprise for both us and EG, we got a muffled paradox like a gun with a silencer. Ripple-less. Deadly silent, like the Prius.


Raziel:

...of...

used as a preposition

[Strands Of Night]

Squiddy: I always thought the parts where Kain speaks about the Heart of Darkness remaining hidden, and that Janos must not be raised were a direct reference to the events of Defiance and BO2.

In Defiance the heart is found, and used to raise Janos. Which in turn gives the Hylden their Uncorruptable Vessel.

This vessel is used first as a powerful vehichle to physically interact with the world they are barred from. The game example is the boss fight with Janos. But it could have done so much from there that remains an unknown.

In BO2 this vessel is used to power The Mass which we are told is a Hylden weapon that can destroy entire races.

So in my eyes great harm did come from the recovery of the Heart. Total disaster was still avoided thanks to BO2 Kain.


(And a third, and apparently unknown, reason Kain wouldnt want the Heart recovered is because it was currently in use as a transplant for his own. {Speaking of, does Kain have 2 hearts or one?})

[TheSquid]

Current # of hearts: 0
Before LOKD: 1

Kain didn't know the Heart of Darkness was transplanted into him, so self-preservation wasn't what he was concerned about when he told Raz not to look for it. 'Twas something else.

Originally Posted by Strands Of Night

the lines about the Heart of Darkness needing to remain hidden were a direct reference to the events of Defiance and BO2.

Kain's updated memories from the SR2 paradox couldn't have included the events of Defiance yet because that was still to come for him. He hadn't lived through LOKD yet, the same way we hadn't. So yes, the BO2 invasion is likely what Kain's heart of darkness worries are about. (That's what we were given to believe.) It's just that Kain shouldn't have been so upset by suddenly remembering BO2. He should remember those events the way we do: Case Closed---the hylden got shut down. (People keep on insisting that the altered timeline of BO2 is just a bubble of change that leaves no lasting impact. No major "harm" done. Even being in a coma for 2 centuries wouldn't have been that much of a loss because Kain still retains all the memories of how he spent those centuries clubbing the first time around.) Then, by the 5th century when Raziel & Friends are raised, we're supposed to believe that history has totally gone back to the timeline from SR1 again, like BO2 was nothing more than a burp in time. I don't buy that, but we're supposed to. So K had no reason to freak out about the Heart of Darkness. To him those events would have been old news (~1600 years old). The situation had been contained that long ago. Unless... some lasting impact from the invasion DID extend further into the timeline and fouled up history in ways we haven't seen yet.....

~ But [evil Janos] could have done so much more harm during those centuries after Defiance that remains unknown.

hmmmmm. Like setting up the Dark Prophecy locale with its army of animated armor suits. Stuff like that. Perhaps more time bombs waiting to go off and cause the big damage Kain remembers.

[Strands Of Night]

Really, Squid.... Really...
Really friggin hillarious! I especially enjoyed the "flawed space shuttle analogy" that you used first then said was flawed.

But for realsies: Since Raz has free will there doesnt have to be a history altering paradox for him to "kill" Kain any way he likes. Hes not altering and more precisely REwiriting history, hes actually writing it. Its not a do-over. What good is free will if Raz cant freely impose his will?

LoK history is an audio Cd that plays the same songs exactly the same over and over. The reaver paradox is a scratch on it, causing it to skip or play diffebtly. Raziel is the Cd burner that overwrites the entire disk.

The overwritten disk is inserted into the shuttle for some epic launch music and overloads the whole system. And so the shuttle explodes. Its Raziels fault space exploration is so dangerous.

[The Hylden]

This is turning out to be the analogy thread Not only is the distortion missing, but so is the reshuffling effect that sent Kain reeling and shook the very world almost to bits in both of the previous paradoxes. I guess they left that part out, too, for dramatic effect

"My patience is eternal, Bazielim" Wait, that should be Squid's line, probably. Thanks for clarifying the lack of a page 37, paragraph 2 quote, lol SR2's guide is the one I don't have, but the only thing close I could fathom he was referring to was that time in the Spirit World flows differently. I figured he was pulling that right out of the air, though.

[Strands Of Night]

Hylden: So youre saying that there was no moment of vertigo where Raziel again changed history, right? I see Squids point, and I think its feasible.

But i see you dont agree. Tell me what you think happens instead? Im unsure if you think that things happened according to fate, or if you think, like me, that Raziel exerted his free will and "altered" time without a paradox. (I use altered in quotes because the rules tell us history cant be changed without a paradox. However, a being with free will implies the opposite. So Raz must be the loop hole. Not altering history, but creating it. No paradox. And nothing to reshuffle.)

[The Hylden]

I think that it's according to fate already written. While Raziel might be able to choose different choices, regardless of if time is in flux or not, time would still have to reshuffle to alter its course to accommodate the new fates of others and that doesn't happen.

Further, Kain at the end of SR2, after time reshuffles there, proves that Janos' resurrection happens, since Kain has now already lived through the events of BO2, and whatever else happens that makes it so crucial that "Janos must stay dead." Raziel, therefore, has to tear the heart from Kain in Avernus in order to resurrect Janos afterward. Janos must be alive, captured then by the HL, after battling Raziel, to power the Hylden gate and let their invasion back into Nosgoth.

I think that Raziel's choices are his to make, but time has already accounted for what those choices basically will be, since SR2's time paradox. The biggest thing Raziel does is go with a certain flow in Defiance. It's interesting, but his version of "Defiance" is basically to play out events and not to say no when the obvious comes around (as long as it feels good). For instance, he could have come to his senses and chosen not to fight Kain, but as Moebius said, every path leads to that outcome that he's seen. Raziel didn't fight it. Rather, he reveled in it. He also didn't shy away from thinking of himself as the Hylden Champion, when he should have known better. I think he was fed up with things and just said to hell with it, let out a lot of pent-up rage, and wound up playing right into the laid destined plan in doing so.

Except for one distinction at the end:

His choice to enter the sword at the end of Defiance I think is unique. It serves time's purpose, as what his fated choice was to be, but unlike probably how you'd think it would play out, with Raziel entering while fighting it tooth and nail, this time he chooses to do so willingly. In doing so, time doesn't enter any flux, since both Raziel souls aren't duking it out to see who wins, and yet it's still a choice made because Raziel wanted to, not because he had to. He could have kept fighting it forever, probably, or until time tore itself to shreds, or expelled him, but he didn't, so Kain can finally be the one to bring an end to this all, with Raziel as his weapon.

[Strands Of Night]

But your theory seems to me like Raziel hasnt used his free will at all throughout the series.

Mother Time is taking Kain to McDonalds. Kain can make certain choices when he gets there: nuggets, burger... But ultimately he cant get a steak, medium rare, with a few drops of lemon. If he does there is going to be big trouble with Mother Time.

I think everyone in the LoK universe can choose their meal. But Raziel is the only one with the power to order a steak. And have it served with no hassle from mom.

You make it sound as though fate gave Raziel a hamburger, and he just asked for no pickles. If this is the case, then i dont see a single instance where Raziel exerted FREE will. Not restrained will, but truly free.

Choosing to follow fates design may sound like an act of freedom, but its not Raziels will. At Mcdonalds Raziel gets in line to order. Raziel doesnt want to wait in line, he wants his food already! But Mother Time asks him nicely, and so he waits. And it feels like he made that decision himself, but all he has done is submit to it. But submitting to fate is the same as being its prisoner. Or worse.

Inaction and action are opposites. Raziel "choosing" to ride the wave fate has given him is not a choice; its simply inaction. Taking no action to change anything. While that sounds like a choice to real people (jump into the fight, or mind my bussniess), there is no choice to LoK characters. They either Do or they Dont. There is no variable. To "decide" to take the preordained action is then no longer a choice, but a default value that will work as intended with no thought or further action.

Please elaborate for me why we need to feel that vertigo, or have a reshuffle every time that the timeline is altered. For anyone but Raziel, 2 reavers are required. The reavers create the paradox and vertigo. The reshuffle happens when time is changed via the paradox. But Raziel has free will, and so doesnt need a reaver, a paradox, or vertigo to alter things. He just does it. Something like Neo in the Matrix, he can see the code and alter it on a whim seamlessly with no reshuffle.

I hope that is at least semi coherent... And i hope i used enough analogies

Im not trying to say anyone is wrong. Im just trying to decide who is right, lol.

[The Hylden]

Now I think you're just going the "analogy as schtick" route I think Raziel and Kain need to simply go to Burger King instead.

Scratch that. They should stay home and fire up the barbecue, make some real burgers, rare, of course

Originally Posted by Strands Of Night

Please elaborate for me why we need to feel that vertigo, or have a reshuffle every time that the timeline is altered. For anyone but Raziel, 2 reavers are required. The reavers create the paradox and vertigo. The reshuffle happens when time is changed via the paradox. But Raziel has free will, and so doesnt need a reaver, a paradox, or vertigo to alter things. He just does it. Something like Neo in the Matrix, he can see the code and alter it on a whim seamlessly with no reshuffle.

Raziel felt the vertigo and experienced the reshuffle of time in both paradoxes of SR2, not just Kain. I didn't say for certain that the vertigo would be needed for Raziel to exert his free will over time; however, time altering its path would have to be felt if he did choose to again. Time is one course that has already been determined. If Raziel decides to make a different decision than that path has laid out, time will have to labor around this paradox and in altering, Raziel and Kain, being within his vicinity, would feel that change to time, as it "strains to find a new path, finding its old course blocked by [Raziel's] monumental decision." None of this happens in Avernus, nor at the end of Defiance, as Raziel chooses the decisions time already had him do along its course.

The moment that Raziel most exemplifies his free will in the entire series, if you're judging it by way of defying time's flow, can be found actually in SR2, where he spared Kain, despite time, his own self -- all forces pushing him to make that preset decision. As Raziel put it, "it took all the will I could muster."

But just because he doesn't make another decision that does so defy time's path, that doesn't mean that it's any less of a choice to do what he does. He could have chosen to defy time, defy the path that he was on, given that he has shown that he has the will to do so, but ultimately, for his own reasons, he chose not to.


I did also say this about time and how set it might be here:

Here, in Avernus, Raziel absolutely does not let it come to this point. He gives his Vae Victus! charge into Kain's chest before this moment of complete weakening could happen. So no, I do not think this is a moment where fates were able to be changed except by Raziel, who could always choose to do whatever no matter if it were a paradoxical moment, or not. Raziel's actions have been shrouded to Moebius, according to him, since the beginning of the game, so I don't think it was this one moment only. Since Kain saved him at the end of SR2, Raziel's choices have left time in a bit of flux, not quite settled yet, it seems, on a true path. Kain sort of says this in Avernus with his "The coin is still turning, Raziel."

However, I do believe that Raziel choosing something that would wind up altering time's flow, something so altering as ripping Kain's heart out here, if he wasn't supposed to, would have to make time strain to alter and it doesn't. And we again know this already was set as his choice by time, because Kain already has Janos being raised as a memory from his BO2 past that he tried to warn Raziel about at the end of SR2. He wouldn't have a memory ingrained in his skull of an event that happens only by Raziel deciding later on something against the path of history.

[Vampmaster]

I don't know how many times I have to say this, but:

Free Will = Ability to disobey the EG.
Two Soul Reavers = Ability to change history.

In cases where disobeying the EG doesn't contradict the past, you don't need to Soul Reavers.

[TheSquid]

You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

Of course there's no ripples in time after the gruesome heart rip. I said that before you did. (Search "Ripple-less.") It was an internal paradox which only changed Kain's insides, not the world at large, so the ripples in time were trapped within Kain's ribcage and reverberated back and forth inside him, giving him heartburn. Those ripples never escaped to warn EG of the change that was being wrought in Kain. That change would keep him alive even as his source of 'life' was being snatched away. In the moment of flux, when the heart was torn out, that source of sustenance was replaced: his vampiric nature latched on to the spirit energy of Raziel that was flowing throughout Kain's body. This jump-started the state of change. He began transitioning into a soul-devourer in that moment, and his quick coma was the initial shock stage of that adaptation. In the next game this transformation could have played out further. It represents a step toward defeating the curse (and the change prepares him to fix that spectral Wheel where no blood is to be found, only energy).

So that was good profiling when you guessed I was arguing for this paradox to support some other theory of mine. Or maybe it wasn't good profiling but I just very much enjoy being profiled. In this particular case I don't need this paradox to exist, I simply want it to. It's a cutie! Also it's fun to spot extra paradoxes before anyone else does, even if they are fool's gold. It's 80% of the way to being a paradox already in the existing game, just sitting there like an untapped resource, a spare tire for if one of the other paradoxes goes flat and no longer explains everything. So I'm planting a prospecting flag in this puppy and claiming it for Spain just in case. But I'm not personally hinging any big importance on this being a paradox, no.

Actually, it doesn't have to be a paradox to have the jumper cable effect on Kain described above, and any cure shouldn't happen so early on anyway--that should wait until the far end of history after hylden/vampire affairs have been put in order. Also, some of the other reasons why this 'paradox' appealed to me have been taken care of by the more helpful recent turn the discussion has taken. (The part about Raziel's freedom and why it doesn't cause ripples on a normal day because time has already moved to incorporate Raz's decisions.) You see, I wanted to use this new paradox to excuse EG and Moe for not seeing Kain's return in advance. And I also wanted to excuse the ancient prophets for getting the hero-fight outcome wrong on all their murals (they didn't foresee the heart rip). So having Raziel yank history in a new direction with a fresh paradox is the usual thing to do if you want to confuse a bunch of Seer types. But these loose threads can be solved without paradox if 1) time has already updated to incorporate Raz's true freedom while 2) Seers are NOT as good as Time at incorporating Raziel---when they get anywhere near one of Raziel's decisions their vision blurs and branches off into the multiple possible outcomes Moe describes. Seers cannot read these Raziel-touched parts of history clearly, so that's why the ancient Seers were blind to the heart rip just as Moe didn't see it coming, just as Elder's predictive powers ran off the road whenever Raziel swerved. That's why EG was surprised when Raz was able to escape the underworld at the beginning of Defiance. (After Raz decided he was getting the heck out of there).

And this wasn't supposed to be a debate. It turned into that out of habit but it's supposed to be Overlooked Lines from Defiance. (The sign ^ at the top says so.) The only reason it looks so much like a debate is because nobody else posted their own lines along with the curiosities you have about them but instead only deconstructed mine with a high intensity laser which makes things less of a party due to all the unnecessary seriousness. But the real reason you should be ashamed of yourselves is how you keep taking things literally and answering back point for point way longer than you should! (I half expect to see an in-depth "Kain did not experience heartburn and here's why" response. I mean, writing up a detailed rebuttal would be very pointed, but it would miss the point.) Is there nothing in Nosgoth you feel like exploring here?

Example: I liked that idea of how Raziel's free will causes no ripples because Time has already adjusted to him and knows what to expect from him. Though that sounds on the surface of things like he's no different from us in how he interacts with the world. Which begs the question "where's the freedom?" The true freedom, then, only comes into play when dark forces like EG try to control Raz and fail. That's whom he's free from: Fate Enforcers. When it comes to everyday things like ordering drinks, we're just as free as Raziel is. And I need one! You have no idea how exasperating it is to always have to listen to people go on and on about how exasperated they are. Kidding. Seriously, though, how awesome am I right now! The answer is So.

[The Hylden]

Originally Posted by TheSquid

You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

Of course there's no ripples in time after the gruesome heart rip. I said that before you did. (Search "Ripple-less.") It was an internal paradox which only changed Kain's insides, not the world at large, so the ripples in time were trapped within Kain's ribcage and reverberated back and forth inside him, giving him heartburn.

lol, it affects far more than Kain -- this act affects everything.

I'll try one more time to see if this registers, being as concise as I can about it:


Kain already has the memory of this timeline in his head from the end of SR2.

He already states to Raziel then that Janos will be raised and needs to remain dead.

The only way Janos is alive is being raised by the HoD.

In Avernus, Kain tells him not to use the HoD before the fight "Great harm will come of its use."

Janos's resurrection has already been written in time.

The only way Raziel could raise Janos is by ripping the heart from Kain. Kain's not going to tear it out of himself and raise Janos on his own. The quest to raise Janos has always been Raziel's.


Were this to BE a change on the timeline that only now does Raziel choose to tear out the HoD from Kain, this affects EVERYTHING to come. If it's a change, Janos is only now resurrected, which only now allows the Hylden Lord the vessel to possess to be used to power the gate that brings forth the invasion of the Hylden.... That's a lot of changin' going on...

Why do you think such a huge act is only confined to how it affects Kain??




This event is already written; nothing new happened in that fight. Raziel went to Avenus to get the HoD and he sure did.




On the subject of this thread's purpose: yes, it's about overlooked lines, but the lines offered so far have all had explanations either in the game, or have been discussed. As a courtesy, I let you know when that is the case. You disagree, and decide to debate it, which is where the debate about the lines comes from. Discussion about your lines is absolutely part of what this thread is about.



Ah, the wheel does turn. I am seeing it now

[Strands Of Night]

To Squid: Yes, I am ashamed and will continue to be so


To Hylden:

The moment that Raziel most exemplifies his free will in the entire series, if you're judging it by way of defying time's flow, can be found actually in SR2, where he spared Kain, despite time, his own self -- all forces pushing him to make that preset decision. As Raziel put it, "it took all the will I could muster."

But that doesnt count as Raziels free will because of the reaver paradox. Anyone can make a decision to alter time at that point.

The Squid said

That's why EG was surprised when Raz was able to escape the underworld at the beginning of Defiance. (After Raz decided he was getting the heck out of there).

That actually sounds like free will at work. This Prius isnt getting by!



To Vampmaster:

Free Will = Ability to disobey the EG.
Two Soul Reavers = Ability to change history.

So Kain has free will at the end of Defiance?
And the Hylden have free will because they defied EG's Wheel?
The Sluagh have free will as EG's spectral enemies who do their own reaving thing?
And ALL necro vamps have free will because, as EG says, "The birth of one of Kain’s abominations traps the essence of life. I can not spin them in the wheel of fate. They can not complete their destinies." Thus defying EG's will.



To Everyone:
In BO1 we alter history. There is no visual or acoustic cue to show that there has been a time change... No ripples. No reshuffle. And Kain doesnt even gain the new memories of the new timeline. He is just as suprised as the player when he finds out the new turn of events. Ripples, memories, and reshuffling are NOT required. However, the characters may still feel them even if the audience does not. Which would explain Kain's knowledge of what is happening in SR2.

Oh and Squid, I know your read all of this even though you didnt want to so here's a line from SR2 (not Defiance) that I think most people missed...

"Messianic delusions..." But I heard "Messy-antic delusions," missed the rest of the dialouge cuz I was all, "What?"

[majinkura]

Originally Posted by Strands Of Night

Oh and Squid, I know your read all of this even though you didnt want to so here's a line from SR2 (not Defiance) that I think most people missed...

"Messianic delusions..." But I heard "Messy-antic delusions," missed the rest of the dialouge cuz I was all, "What?"

actually I had heard that too...and i was all - outtake!!
man this whole thread (jokes)LOL

[The Hylden]

Originally Posted by Strands Of Night

To Vampmaster:


So Kain has free will at the end of Defiance?
And the Hylden have free will because they defied EG's Wheel?
The Sluagh have free will as EG's spectral enemies who do their own reaving thing?
And ALL necro vamps have free will because, as EG says, "The birth of one of Kain’s abominations traps the essence of life. I can not spin them in the wheel of fate. They can not complete their destinies." Thus defying EG's will.

Indeed. I am glad I didn't have to go back and edit to address this fully. The EG describes himself as the "hub" of his wheel of fate, so even as such, he's not the controller of fate. I very much doubt that he has power over everyone's fate, but simply takes in souls, then respawns them anew, where time has already written their fate to its course.

To Hylden:


But that doesnt count as Raziels free will because of the reaver paradox. Anyone can make a decision to alter time at that point.

On the contrary. No-one can make a decision to alter time at any point, save Raziel. Kain simply does what he's fated to do. In the battle against William the Just, Kain is fated simply to fight him. On the "original timeline," Kain does not succeed at killing him, as evident by the very existence of The Nemsis. Kain has a 50/50 shot at winning due not to his own actions, which are the same on both timelines, but due to Raziel. Two of the same free will souls duking it out, where one wins once, and the other wins the second time around. Kain is only the holder of the sword, not the controller of events.

In the second time Kain gets to act in a paradox, at the end of Soul Reaver 2, he's also only doing what he's fated to. He's fated to try only to pull out the Reaver. Interestingly enough, though, time has him fated to fail. He has to wait for the moment that Raziel loses strength and lets go of the sword. This is the moment Raziel is losing to his other self, and Kain is destined not to be able to stop the full absorption, which probably would have left him holding nothing but the Soul Reaver, calling in vein, "Raziel?" very much like he does at the end of Defiance. He only succeeds due to Raziel, who still has a 50/50 shot to hold out on his end long enough for Kain to succeed.

By contrast totally, the paradox in William the Just's Chapel. Raziel is the only being in existence that could do what he did there. He's fighting the "rush of history" (fate, time, destiny), and his own wraith blade self pulling for this to happen. He fights it all and chooses not to kill Kain, when he was supposed to choose to kill him as time had already written. You switch Kain in his place, hypothetically, with the wraith blade on his arm, and Kain would have no ability to choose anything, but would simply act on what he's fated to do.

As Raziel states, Kain gambled everything on the end moment of SR2, where he might be able to free Raziel, but this moment is the most crucial. He has to be alive to act then, and that means he had to convince Raziel to make this choice, to choose a new fate for everyone. As Moebius states later on in Defiance on duping our hero: "Ah but you do [have free will]. And there is the greatest triumph of all, to have compelled the one player who could choose into doing exactly what we required." The greatest triumph of all, to get a free will being to decide in your favor.

To Everyone:
In BO1 we alter history. There is no visual or acoustic cue to show that there has been a time change... No ripples. No reshuffle. And Kain doesnt even gain the new memories of the new timeline. He is just as suprised as the player when he finds out the new turn of events. Ripples, memories, and reshuffling are NOT required. However, the characters may still feel them even if the audience does not. Which would explain Kain's knowledge of what is happening in SR2.

Graphic limitations what they were, I doubt they could have had rippling anyway, but actually you do see shaking of the camera, a la reshuffling of events, when William falls. While you see this same shaking with every boss encounter, you can still use this visually as a similarity. Of note also, William's Reaver lies broken when he is killed (love consistency! ). When Kain explains the distortion of time and the reshuffling when paradoxes happen in SR2, he does so because he actually did go through it in the paradox here first. Having two timelines suddenly in his head, it probably would be confusing as hell to know what's going on and so him not commenting on it then as a fledgling vampire is more understandable, and then him later telling Raziel after figuring out it all from the Chronoplast and his millennia of existence.