AI alertness enhanced at higher difficulty settings

[Slugo]

In past Thief games, if you were spotted during a mission, the AI would quickly forget all about you and continue on their way. I think in T4, the AI alertness should be persistant throughout a mission when playing at higher difficulty settings.

For example, IF a guard/civilian sees or hears you during a mission, but does not directly spot you = their alert status should remain high for the duration of that mission.

IF a guard/civilian spots you and manages to sound the alarm, the whole household should remain on high alert for the duration of that mission.

What do you guys think?

[DJ Riff]

I doubt it will benefit the gameplay. It pushes the gameplay closer to 8-bit arcade games where one mistake means complete failure and start over. As opposed to them, Thief always had the 'analogue' type of gameplay which determine a wide variety between success and failure: the more careless you were during one episode, the more careful and patient you should be to complete a mission. Randy Smith covers the issue in his presentation:

http://www.roningamedeveloper.com/Ma...h_GDC_2002.ppt

If you were spotted, you have to be patient and wait for guards to calm down or be observant and find another way. Leaving them always on high alert will encourage the player to reload/restart every time things go wrong. Moreover, it discourages player to be creative: If, for example, I see a guard which is impossible to sneak by and blackjack, I have an option to kill him with an arrow or shoot an arrow somewhere to distract him and slip behind his back. If I know that he will calm down eventually, I'll choose distraction. Otherwise this situation will encourage killing instead.

[Hamadriyad]

There is no reason for their alert status should remain high.That's not reasonable. If you think saw or heard something, but you couldn't find nothing, you don't stay at high alert status whole day, eventually you calm down, which is reasonable.

[Davehall380]

The balance has been pretty spot on so far, I am not sure that tipping the scales in favour of permanent alertness is necessarily a good idea.

I am also pretty sure that if you triggered an alarm (Framed - on normal difficulty at least!) then the whole building is on alert as it is.

[jtr7]

I think having the AIs stay one notch above unalert, like the older titles, but longer than mere minutes, is fine, but not ramped up high. There also shouldn't be unalerted conscious AIs within a stone's throw of explosions, or just because the mayhem occurred on another floor above or below.

[Platinumoxicity]

I've noticed that there are some really paranoid people in Thief. The chef at the restaurant of the Overlord's Fancy. And the watch sergeant in Shoalsgate, next to the locker rooms. And in the KD site there are 2 mechanists that seem to be able to see you in the dark.

Originally Posted by Slugo

In past Thief games, if you were spotted during a mission, the AI would quickly forget all about you and continue on their way. I think in T4, the AI alertness should be persistant throughout a mission when playing at higher difficulty settings.

In Thief 1 and 2, if you make noise enough to draw attention but you are not spotted, the AI will remain slightly more alert for a short time. If they spot you and lose sight of you, they will eventually return to their patrol, but they will remain more alert for the rest of the mission. In fact, right after losing the sight of you they seem to "pretend" that they are less alert but if you approach them from behind they will turn around trying to surprise you as you try to surprise them. But changing the difficulty doesn't affect the amount of alertness they keep after resuming patrol. In fact, difficulty has no effect on the AI in Thief 1 and 2.

In TDS, the difficulty settings actually do affect guard alertness, but there's just one problem with that. In TDS there is a bug with the guard AI, that once they resume patrol, their alertness is not kept at a higher state than normal. It's as if they forget all about your intrusion. The reason why I know it's a bug is that if they see you again, they still do shout "Aha, there you are!" instead of "Who are you? Stop!". But they are not more likely to detect you in darkness, or to start searching when they hear suspicious sounds.

[Davehall380]

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

And in the KD site there are 2 mechanists that seem to be able to see you in the dark.

Either that or they have been eating their carrots, eh?

[Slugo]

Well, I could see the guards relaxing after a while IF they DIDN'T actually 100% spot you. But if they actually SEE you and chase after you, they should be alert for the rest of the level.

[Davehall380]

The danger with that is creating a situation where the player decides that it is better to load a save game as it is more effort to continue playing the mission with the guards at 100% alertness.

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by Slugo

Well, I could see the guards relaxing after a while IF they DIDN'T actually 100% spot you. But if they actually SEE you and chase after you, they should be alert for the rest of the level.

That's exactly what happens in Thief 1 and 2. In TDS the AI acknowledge by speech that they have already spotted you before, but when it comes to their general alertness after spotting an intruder, they act as if nothing ever happened.

Originally Posted by Davehall380

The danger with that is creating a situation where the player decides that it is better to load a save game as it is more effort to continue playing the mission with the guards at 100% alertness.

That's their problem. Some people manage to get a kick out of recieving perfect stats. When I used to play "perfect ghost" style, meaing that nobody notices me and I get as much loot as possible, I loaded quicksaves after being spotted. But I've come to notice that not using saves while trying to ghost the best you can, is much more exciting, and if you don't give up after being chased, the rest of the mission is is even more exciting when you know somebody knows you're there. And it's always a grande finale when you finish the mission with an elaborate chase scene.

[Slugo]

Agreed.

Just because some players will reload a save in order to achieve a perfect 'score' doesn't mean that the rest of us shouldn't be able to enjoy an increased challenge (from being spotted).

[jtr7]

Modding tools, FTW!

[tinetone]

Originally Posted by Slugo

In past Thief games, if you were spotted during a mission, the AI would quickly forget all about you and continue on their way. I think in T4, the AI alertness should be persistant throughout a mission when playing at higher difficulty settings.

For example, IF a guard/civilian sees or hears you during a mission, but does not directly spot you = their alert status should remain high for the duration of that mission.

IF a guard/civilian spots you and manages to sound the alarm, the whole household should remain on high alert for the duration of that mission.

What do you guys think?

As long as you dont kill someone there is no reason all of them should be on high alertness. The only problem was when you killed someone guards resumed their patrools after very short period.
Alertness status should aslo vary from guard to guard maybe even be random for each mission, if there are 30 guards 10 are at low, 10 at medium and 10 at high alertness but you dont know wich one. It sould aslo vary from mission to mission, guards at bank should have higher alertness than town watch in poor city district.

[negative_len]

Whatever things change on different difficulty levels, I hope the developers give us the chance to adjust these things separately, independent of each other. I'd like to have the option of highest-difficulty AI and possibly side goals without increasing loot requirements.