Request: A compilation of common complaints people have with this game

[IOS]

I'd like this compilation so that I can respond to them all in one topic. No, I am in no way affiliated with EM, or a Deus Ex fanboy. I simply believe that the majority of people who criticize this game view DX1 in an unrealistic light, and have unnecessary expectations for Human Revolution. It is common that people who compare HR to DX1 have no idea what they are talking about. This topic is just to clear things up. Finally, I won't be responding to criticisms that I agree with (Highlighting and Third Person Shifts). I want to give this game the benefit of the doubt, but I'm also not going to blindly defend it.

Getting to the point, is this list of complaints inclusive?

-Third Person Shifts/Cover System
-Takedowns/Absence of Melee Weapons
-Black/Gold Filter
-Highlighting of certain items
-Ammo Counter on the weapon
-Regenerating Health
-Certain items not being interactable
-Hacking replacing Lockpicks/Multitools
-Radar as starting aug

I just want to know if I'm missing anything before continuing. Once I have a complete list, I'll provide a counterargument to each complaint and then either edit it into this post, or make a new message and link to it in this post.

Thanks guys. I enjoy playing devils advocate.

[[FGS]Shadowrunner]

The only complaint I have is that it has not yet been released
I guess you could add "no multiplayer, no sdk" to the list.

Hacking replacing Lockpicks/Multitools - I find this complaint silly. Probably the same person who complained about DX1 tooling and picking being a click of a button.

The others, just seem to be complaining about something that they haven't experienced yet. The only one which I might possibly identify with after playing the game is third person takedown. Never even liked slomo in the Matrix.

Howabout a list of positives as well. Here's one:
- Looks like a game of Deus Ex.
And me too, I'm a Deus Ex 1 fan. Never even bothered finishing IW. But DX3 impresses me. As for the colour scheme well, the rationale has been explained.

[IOS]

Originally Posted by [FGS]Shadowrunner

Howabout a list of positives as well. Here's one:
- Looks like a game of Deus Ex.
And me too, I'm a Deus Ex 1 fan. Never even bothered finishing IW. But DX3 impresses me. As for the colour scheme well, the rationale has been explained.

I do agree that people should view the positives of Deus Ex as well. The purpose of this topic was just so that I could get an idea of all the complaints so that I can rebuttal them.

EDIT: Thanks K^2, I'll add Radar to the list as well.

[mentalkase]

I'd say for pretty much every complaint there's already been several rebuttals, for some many.

It'd probably be more constructive to make a list of things that have been changed from DX1 in this game and then a for/against the implementation of those things. Personal opinion rules the day here though. There might be lots of good reasons for something to have changed, but that doesn't mean that people have to like it.

[K^2]

IOS, as far as I can tell, the only complaint about cover system is that it forces 3rd person shift.

I would also throw in radar being a default augmentation onto the list. We don't really know how much information it actually provides without the upgrades, but it might be yet another thing that would throw stealth out of balance.

[-=fox=-]

Agreed, mentalkase. Find counter arguments all you like, the only thing that can potentially change my opinion about all of the above is when the end result plays out better then expected and my expectations right now are quite easy to exceed.

[Ashpolt]

IOS, we've heard every conceivable "counter-argument" to our complaints about this game. Despite what you may think, you're not some kind of debating whizz who will change all of our minds in one fell swoop. The fact is, a lot of people don't like a lot of the decisions Eidos Montreal are making, and the only thing that could possibly change that at this point is us playing the game and going "Oh, you know what, by some miracle this actually works." Simply telling people they're wrong won't change anything at this point, because I can guarantee you that you will only be repeating things that have been said before countless times. Add in the fact that your tone is insulting and argumentative from the start - "It is common that people who compare HR to DX1 have no idea what they are talking about" - and this topic is going nowhere fast.

Mods, can we have a lock please? This is just going to cause flaming etc.

[Viktoria]

No complaints from me at this point. I'll confirm, or revise, after I have played the game.
I can hardly wait for February/March!!

[Zakka]

My only complaint is the drunken bot after the bot shoots a guard in the latest trailer. It looks glitchy.

I also prefer the ammo counter on the bottom of the screen but I ain't bothered by it that much.

[Brock]

Hacking doesn't replace multitools/lockpicks. Hacking was already in the first game so basically we can say they removed multitools and lockpicks and left only hacking.

[Kvltism]

Originally Posted by Brock

Hacking doesn't replace multitools/lockpicks. Hacking was already in the first game so basically we can say they removed multitools and lockpicks and left only hacking.

In fairness, hacking appears to have been upgraded considerably. But there's no way for EM to sell me on omitting lockpicks/multitools not hurting the product to some extent.

[Fluffis]

Originally Posted by Kvltism

In fairness, hacking appears to have been upgraded considerably. But there's no way for EM to sell me on omitting lockpicks/multitools not hurting the product to some extent.

"Upgraded" is a matter of opinion... "Changed" is more accurate, and more diplomatic.

[Kvltism]

Originally Posted by Fluffis

"Upgraded" is a matter of opinion... "Changed" is more accurate, and more diplomatic.

I do consider it an upgrade. Mind, that isn't saying much - the hacking system in DX was a matter of clicking one button. But Brock is right re: this change not making up for EM cutting lockpicks/multitools out of the game. Eh, at least it won't become as tedious as hacking in Bioshock. (I hope)

[Fluffis]

No amount of rebuttals/counter-arguments/colourful horses/whatever are going to change my views on those things (we've heard so many already). The only thing that has a possibility of doing that, is playing the game and having the game play better than I fear. A lot better.

[Gandalf_the_Fabulous]

The only real gripe I have with the game so far is that they are trying to make it a prequel that ties in with the events of the first game dispite the fact they have changed the game world so much.

[Rindill the Red]

Originally Posted by Gandalf_the_Fabulous

The only real gripe I have with the game so far is that they are trying to make it a prequel that ties in with the events of the first game despite the fact they have changed the game world so much.

How have they changed the game world?

[AlexOfSpades]

My only complaint is that the game doesnt give you options.

If it had third person shifts - but then an option to deactivate it, how could i complain?

If it had highlighting and other handholdings - but then an option to deactivate it, how could i complain?

Its just a matter of option.

[mad_red]

Originally Posted by AlexOfSpades

My only complaint is that the game doesnt give you options.

If it had third person shifts - but then an option to deactivate it, how could i complain?

If it had highlighting and other handholdings - but then an option to deactivate it, how could i complain?

Its just a matter of option.

I second this. What makes it particularly baffling is that many of the options appear very easy to implement.

[pha]

First, saying people who compare DX1 and HR don't know what they are talking about isn't a constructive way to approach the problem. You're playing a dangerous game. But I'll play along.

1. Prequel with so many inconsistencies and anachronisms (Phantom Menace syndrome)
2. Overall simplicity, hand holding (e.g. radar, highlighted objects, stuff which point you to your "main objective"), lack of options.
3. Overexaggerated yellow/gold/brown tone just because "they thought it would look cool and artistic".
4. Overuse of third person. In the first game the UI was exactly what JC saw, and the only occasions we saw him in third person were the conversations and endgame cinematics. In HR, the UI is not for the protagonist, it's for the players, so the UI is persistent during 3rd person switches. Other than that, I believe too many automatic switches between first person and third person will become distracting in very short time.
5. Piss poor health system compared to the detailed and immersive system in the first game where multiple ways of gaining health were available, some being less obvious, like vending machines and water coolers, locational damage with consequences e.g. lowered accuracy when arms are damaged, etc.
6. And last but not least, as with most multiplatform games, I'm concerned about the PC version of DX:HR. I know the interface will be different and difficulty will be adjusted, but we haven't seen much footage of the PC version (IIRC the eyefinity bootleg vid is the only PC footage we've seen). It's likely that the game won't support proper FOV or mouse behavior out of the box. And there might be extra surprises in the corner like Nazi DRM, console exclusive content, etc.

[nomotog]

You should add consoles to the list too.

[IOS]

Originally Posted by pha

lack of options.

Whoever wasted their time making this probably should have considered that we've seen ONE gameplay demo showing off ONE method of approaching an objective. You have absolutely NO way of knowing how many approaches there are to different situations in HR. Not to mention that chart doesn't even apply to every situation for Deus Ex. In Versalife, you had three options of getting into the labs: Give the supervisor 2000 credits, hack the computer or kill the supervisor. The code wasn't written down, and it was an Inf/Inf door. As a matter of fact, the game had a LOT of Inf/Inf doors.

Its all too common for people here to view Deus Ex as "the pinnacle of gaming", and completely overlook its shortcomings/exaggerate its good points. Deus Ex was a good game, but a flawed game as well.

This kind of situation happens far too often. No wonder EM can't "please their fan-base". The fanbase wants HR to be similar to a magical flawless version of the original that never actually existed.

[Ashpolt]

Originally Posted by IOS

This kind of situation happens far too often. No wonder EM can't "please their fan-base". The fanbase wants HR to be similar to a magical flawless version of the original that never actually existed.

...In other words, Deus Ex but with 10 years' worth of improvements to it. Except for the "flawless" part, I don't think that's asking too much: in fact, I think "Deus Ex with the broken bits fixed and running on today's technology" is the very least Eidos Montreal should aim for. The problem is that the changes Eidos Montreal have made - the ones people are complaining about, at least -are not fixing the problems of the original game. No-one's complaining that they're improving the AI or the animations, because they were problems that needed to be fixed. Similarly, if they introduced new features that actually added to the "immersive simulation" gameplay experience, no-one would be complaining. What people are complaining about are changes that detract from the gameplay, and make it more flashy and "cinematic" at the expense of immersion and player agency.

Don't make the fallacy of assuming "the fans are not pleased" and "the fans can't be pleased" are one and the same thing. A lot of us have been letting EM know for over 2 years how they could please us, and it's their decision not to pay attention to that.

[EDIT] As for the inventory management conversation: Seriously, CODEllite, I don't think this is the game for you. I don't mean this as an insult, I just think that if you shell out your money on release day, you're not going to get the game you want. Ironically, neither am I: EM are aiming straight down the middle, to please no-one.

[-=fox=-]

Originally Posted by Ashpolt

EM are aiming straight down the middle, to please no-one.

Possible but I have a hunch that this won't really flop sales wise. Might attract people without DX experience but who liked games like Splinter Cell.

[Brock]

Originally Posted by Ashpolt

...In other words, Deus Ex but with 10 years' worth of improvements to it. Except for the "flawless" part, I don't think that's asking too much: in fact, I think "Deus Ex with the broken bits fixed and running on today's technology" is the very least Eidos Montreal should aim for. The problem is that the changes Eidos Montreal have made - the ones people are complaining about, at least -are not fixing the problems of the original game. No-one's complaining that they're improving the AI or the animations, because they were problems that needed to be fixed. Similarly, if they introduced new features that actually added to the "immersive simulation" gameplay experience, no-one would be complaining. What people are complaining about are changes that detract from the gameplay, and make it more flashy and "cinematic" at the expense of immersion and player agency.

Don't make the fallacy of assuming "the fans are not pleased" and "the fans can't be pleased" are one and the same thing. A lot of us have been letting EM know for over 2 years how they could please us, and it's their decision not to pay attention to that.

[EDIT] As for the inventory management conversation: Seriously, CODEllite, I don't think this is the game for you. I don't mean this as an insult, I just think that if you shell out your money on release day, you're not going to get the game you want. Ironically, neither am I: EM are aiming straight down the middle, to please no-one.

Agree with all this. Actually I was really optimistic after hearing first info about game 2 years back. I even didn't bother to sign up in this forum because I thought game is shaping OK. Yes, we already new about regenerating health but that didn't bothered me if they leave every other thing as it is in the first game. Also we new there will be third person switch but if i remember correctly EM said that it will be completely optional and players will be able to choose to use it or not. At least it wasn't said that third person switching will be actually all the time when you will try to take cover, make melee takedown etc. Well, I signed up to these forums only this year when i thought EM isn't actually hearing us and most likely they think we are minority here who think that all those changes are not the best for series. Actually there is much more people who don 't like all this but they just don 't care to come here and repeat all this bull over and over again because we who already did that haven't changed almost anything (at least what we have seen so far).
Also, as Ashpolt said, I can't understand why they didn't use already established formula from the first game and just upgrade/fix and add some new features. Why there is such need to steer the series away from it. Was really the first game so broken that it needed all those changes? Are gamers really so dumb and impatient that you think that he needs to stay always on the course and don 't want to actually explore environment and search for not so obviously shown problem solutions/paths? Do we really need flashy action and can't gamer really connect with protagonist if he won't see how cool he is with all those augments? After all they (EM) do to the series I think they think so and actually I think the whole industry think so low about gamers. Actually i think that we can say that about the whole entertainment industry.

Also what i wanted to say to this topic, my common complaint is that there always someone thinks that he is smarter than everyone else and now he will give us the only truth and will change our minds by compiling every complaint and giving his only opinion. Unless you are from EM I don 't care about explanation and i doubt your response to those complains is really needed here. There is already too many topics about all this were you could say what you wanted to say about all this.

[Fluffis]

Originally Posted by IOS

Its all too common for people here to view Deus Ex as "the pinnacle of gaming", and completely overlook its shortcomings/exaggerate its good points. Deus Ex was a good game, but a flawed game as well.

Assuming Deus Ex isn't the pinnacle of gaming: What would you say is the pinnacle of gaming so far?

As for the rest, I agree with Ash.

One more point, though: Don't assume you know more about this than anyone else on this board. That is a bad mistake.

There are a lot of people here who started out very optimistic about this game, but through cynical treatment and weird creative decisions (coupled with flashbacks to IW) have become sceptical or even outright angry about the game. I'm one of those people, for instance.