Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 10-30-2001 08:46 PM             

Recorded in each message is the FM name, the user's play mode (Ghost or Perfect Thief), the end-mission statistics, and any notes regarding the ghosting of the fan mission.

To prevent this thread from becoming excessively long and forcing readers to span many pages to read the results, this thread should be closed when its length reaches 5 pages (or maybe 10) whereupon a new "Part n+1" thread is started. The moderator(s) will then be requested to move the old thread into the Thief archive to close it and make it read-only so it is retained as a lookup reference.

Replying to a reported result herein is appropriate; hurrah messages should be eliminated or kept to a minimum. Discussing how to ghost something in a mission not yet tried and not yet reported here should be contained in a separate thread. The idea is to report successful ghost attempts and perhaps discuss failures and possible solutions but not to incur a lot of fluff within this thread.

[This message has been edited by Vanguard (edited 11-15-2001).]

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 10-30-2001 08:50 PM             

Mode: Ghost
Ghosted: Yes Failed - due to mission design
Time: 43 minutes (almost all because of stand-and-spin gal)
Loot: 1667 of 1917 (1500 required)
Damage: dealt = 0, taken = 0, healing = 0
Killed: 0 innocent, 0 others

Causes of failed ghost:
- Banner slashing is mandatory to get at an objective.

Comments:
- Can't get through secret panel in 1st floor fireplace room; partially covered by banner that you cannot walk through or crouch under. Had to slash banner to get at the "Locate evidence" objective that is in this secret room.
- Gal in 2nd floor bedroom sporatically snaps 90 degrees left and right. Pretty phony behavior. Could only make a dash in for one action at a time. Took 7 single-task dashes and 2 moss arrows. Jumping on bed only provides shortcut to get key on cabinet but speed gets severely slowed while atop the bed. Cannot crouch when on bed so could not reach lever to secret floor compartment, but could crouch and dash between her and bed (she'll notice if you're standing when you dash by).
- No way to ghost the spider that circles around the gemstone in the outside storage room. Spider is too close, spider and gem are behind barrels, no way to turn off the electric light. Had to abandon that loot. Not required to make the loot objective.
- Loot purse from archer on rear balcony can be ghosted by using water arrows. But once the loot objective is complete, I quit hunting for more loot and just pickup what I happen to find along the way. Thieves target. Burglars ransack.

[This message has been edited by Vanguard (edited 12-14-2001).]

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 10-30-2001 09:27 PM             

Play mode: Ghost (incomplete failed - partly by accident^*, also by mission design)
Time: 2 hr 34 min
Loot: 2629 of 2629 (2000 required^*)
Pockets picked: 5 of 6
Knockouts: 2 (haunt to chisel, guard to Montrose's bedroom)

Cause(s) of failure:
- Slashed a banner. Avoidable but already performed a quicksave afterward over my prior quicksave. Didn't have a prior save. (And the ghost gets busted later, anyway).
- Cannot get up ladder into "hammer select teleport" room (needed to get at the chisel objective). A zombie was planted right at the bottom and against the ladder to the only entrance to this room.
- Cannot get into burrick room from chimney ladder without having to jump and make noise, could not drop into room or exit (to ladder) since that end of room is constantly watched by a stationary burrick. No way to create shadows. Once you get the chisel objective, you are forced to end your teleport travels in the burrick room.
- The pacing & spinning guard at in the tiny anteroom makes single-clicking to pick a door (required to get the rosary) that would take an hour or more to open exceeds my patience. Opening the door is more luck than skill.

Comments:
- ^* After exiting the cell at the start, cutting the banner in the basement hallway puts the guard on quick alert indefinitely i.e., he notices the slashed banner and reacts, staying on quick alert and acting like he has super-human hearing and 270-degree vision). The loot there has to be abandoned to prevent this alert. However, I unfortunately already did a quicksave after grabbing it and didn't have a prior save, so I continued knowing that the mission could be replayed without slashing the banner. But even without it, I was way over the required loot objective. Another player noted that this loot can be obtained by coming in the other way into this tunnel by pushing past the powder kegs, but when I played the kegs would not move.
- The chisel is in a room up a ladder which is watched by a standing zombie. This zombie and the room it's in is also overlooked by a haunt. No way to ghost getting to the "hammer select" room that gets you to the chisel (a required objective); can't darken room and no shadows. Had to tap haunt (although I suppose I could've left him alerted but he might alert other haunts); the 2 zombies are easy to run around. If you end up in the burrick room, there's no way to get to the exit ladder without being noticed; room too small, one burrick roams quickly while other watches the exit side of the room, and no way to darken the room (i.e., electric lights again). Also cannot take chimney down into burrick room; have to jump off ladder (noisy) and in full light and view of burricks.
- There's a portal in a small cave at the back of the caverns (gotten to using the elevator that also goes sideways past the crypts). It does nothing but lure you over there.
- In the shaft room under the elevator (past the crypts), cannot ghost the zombie down there to get to ladder to the goodie chests. The ladder is watched. Had to skip the goodies.
- In the approx. 10-ft. octagonal anteroom for Montrose's and other bedrooms, a guard paces around pretty quick, sometimes spinning instantly 360 degrees. I can use the key to open Montrose's bedroom without getting noticed (by trailing the guard and with luck that he doesn't spin in place). However, there's a door here that must be picked (the rosary objective is in there) but there's no time. You can dash in and get in 1 click of a pick and dash back but you have to wait for the right route for the guard; i.e., you have to get lucky - many times! It might be possible if you're willing to wait a couple minutes for each chance to perform a 1-click pick for maybe a total of 30 picks to get the door opened. But I didn't want to spend an hour or more on this, gave up after about 20 attempts, the ghost was already busted, so I tapped the guard. I really don't like ghosting that relies primarily on luck rather than skill.
- After getting the gate key, cannot exit (to end mission) without being seen by guard outside that is near and watching the door. I can manage to douse the torch over the door but there's another one nearby that I can't get to aim at without being seen. Guard does not move. I did once manage to scoot out and around the corner and only got a first alert but this was pure luck. You can't peek out to see when the guard is facing away. You can sneak up to the edge of the door to see he shoulder. He doesn't face away but does sometimes look askance away from the door, but by the time you rotate to change from looking at his shoulder past the door and face toward where you need to run, your opportunity is gone, so you have to keep retrying to dash out and around the corner and hope that on one attempt he happens to be looking askance. Another player reported he gets out 3 in 5 attempts, but mine was more like 1 in 8 and I don't like ghosting based more on luck than skill.

[This message has been edited by Vanguard (edited 12-14-2001).]

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 10-30-2001 09:34 PM             

Play mode: Ghost (success)
Time: 37 min
Loot: 1390 of 1590 (1300 required)
Pockets picked: 5 of 5

Comments:
- If you go onto the boat first, you can't get back to the docks, so mission cannot be completed (no sword).
- Getting through the church door (to the sword) is tough. Garret peculiarly gets instantly obese and has a tough time squeezing through the opening of one of the large metal doors. The other door didn't open.
- Snudged the guard forward in the captain's ship room to get at loot on table in front of him. Might not be required if you get enough loot elsewhere.
- Forced to snudge guard forward against wall to get down the stairs to get below deck. You have to get below deck and this guard is in the way.

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 10-30-2001 09:45 PM             

Play mode: Ghost (success failed)
Time: 49 min
Loot: 2095 of 2940 (2000 required)
Pockets picked: 2 of 4
Back stabs: 33
Damage dealt: 2219 Taken: 0 Healing: 0
Killed: 44

Cause(s) of failure:
- Little green spiders in room with talisman cannot be ghosted.
- Clanging made by jumping across metal platforms to get the fire talisman alerts haunts in room above. No moss arrows available.

Comments:
- This is one of those missions where the author forces you to kill; an objective is to kill all moving undead. The only living AIs are spiders.
- Cannot ghost spiders in basement of weapons shop (for loot and water arrows). They can't get up the stairs so you can pick them off easy. Had to skip loot and arrows since no way to ghost these spiders.
- Cannot ghost spiders in tower room with earth talisman. Can't kill a minimal number of spiders; the wail of one dying alerts the others. They won't come out of the room so you can lure them to the door sill and pick them off. The talisman in that room is a required objective so you have to go in that room, so these spiders got skewered (was able to perforate the lil green spiders and leave big green spider unalerted).
- Getting the fire talisman requires jumping across metallic platforms that make a loud clang. No moss arrows; no loadout screen (to buy any), none found in the mission. The sound alerts the haunts in the next room up.
- Eventually found Montrose but had to pick up lots of bodies before finding him (but status says "Montrose BedChambers" when I pick him up). This was an anti-climax since I expected to duel with him, sneak up on him, or have some fun with him. Nope, just an unconcious lump on the floor.

[This message has been edited by Vanguard (edited 12-14-2001).]

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 10-30-2001 10:05 PM             

Play mode: Ghost (success)
Time: 1 hr 16 min
Loot: 2269 of 2753 (2000 required)
Pockets picked: 5 of 6
Damage dealt: 208 Taken: 0 Healing: 0
Killed: 7

Comments:
- Killing Rameriz and his henchmen are required objectives. Rather than battle with Rameriz - and lose since I'm a poor sword player - I gassed him and hacked him while he was unconcious. Hey, I'm never fair when it comes to dealing death. I originally had ghosted all his henchmen because I didn't know those master guards (black hooded chainmail) were his henchmen. I had expected them to be farther into The Keep or to be more dangerous. I had to restart the whole mission and nail them the next time through; after you pass the gate where you use the shield stone and jump down into the pool, there's no way back (and I almost exclusively use just quicksave and didn't have a save prior to the jump into the pool).
- Snudged a servant against the wall in Rameriz's kitchen to get the loot on the table and chimney shelf in front of him.
- After finding "Remeriz's Secret" and sneaking past the ghostie zombies, found the spiders in the left tunnel. Easy enough to get down to grab the blue jewel loot and get back out but no way to ghost the multitude of lil green spiders down there which also have unusually excellent sight. Got the blue gem at the top of the shaft and the one in the cubby along the vertical shaft, but had to abandon the rest down amongst the spiders.

Whew, 4 missions in one file. That kept me busy for awhile. Nothing like ghosting to get infuriated at Garret's clumsiness. Onto another FM.

[This message has been edited by Vanguard (edited 12-14-2001).]

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 10-31-2001 01:26 PM             

Play mode: Ghost (success)
Time: 49 min
Loot: 1140 of 1255 (700 required)
Damage dealt: 28 Taken: 0 Healing: 0
Killed: 1

Comments:
- The kill (of the tattling assassin) is a required objective.
- Tough to navigate some spots. When a torch is doused, the area becomes absolute black; can't see a thing. Cell 3 is black; jumped to make noise to lure out the assassin after opening the door so I could take aim with broadheads to kill (I never use the sword when another method is available to kill; I always take damage with sword play). Sliding game gamma to max didn't help, nor turning up monitor brightness and contrast (it's black in the game so no amount of increase will make it brighter). Ambient light level needs to be raised. Very likely a difference in video drivers handling game gamma values. However, torches far away shed way too much light on Garret; after dousing near torch (to create shadows for hiding), torch 80 feet away still lit me up at top end of yellow range in light gem (and dousing both torches left the hallway completely black; couldn't even see the guards brushing past my face).

Posts: 1223
From: London, Ontario, Canada
Registered: AUG 2000

posted 10-31-2001 03:25 PM         

Terrific mission! No bugs of consequence that I noticed. Expansive.

In the beginning, if you conserve the water arrows until you've gotten into the weapons room in the guard house things will go a lot smoother. Even so, I think I needed to use them all, save one, maybe, to get to that point.

I elected to ignore the sword and tavern key in the sewer by the spiders. This may be Ghostable but I didn't really check into that. I tried a few times without success. My previous blackjack run through had shown me that they weren't needed to complete the mission. Getting into this section of the sewers was a Ghosting surprise. I ran and jumped into the manhole while the lady cop was running toward the doused torch. I expected the remaining, stationary cop to blow a fuse when the lightning flashed but he didn't see me! I didn't take Ash this way.

Rather than trying to stack boxes (if there are even enough) to get into the bedroom above the tavern I Snudged the one robber enough to fit through the doorway. Worthy of note is that he was Snudgeable from his front, pushing him backward. I don't believe there is room for Garrett to fit through this doorway with the robber standing there. Perhaps while the two robbers are talking?

The deal breaker came at a surprising spot. The stationary guard in the room beside the room with the elevator going down to the torture area is keen of hearing. He'll spook at the sound of the broadhead arrow hitting the elevator up button. In fact, I had to Snudge him all the way across the room, through the door, and then all the way down the first flight of stairs before he didn't hear that sound any more. You'll also need to wait until the large child is in the far corner of the courtyard or it'll hear the sound too. In retrospect I could have used the slowfall potion here. It wouldn't surprise me the author provided it for just this.

The ship was less trouble than I expected. I was able to ghost everything except the final two buttons without dousing any torches on the ship. It may be possible to time this too but I finally just doused about all the torches -- could run right by the patrolling archers on the ramps with the lights out without comment.

Several days of great Ghosting fun -- recommended.

Statistics:
Ghost: success
Time: 3:57:37
Loot: 3,562 of 3,977
Pockets: 20 of 23
Locks: 26
Knockouts: 2 (Ash and ship captain, required)
Dammage Dealt: 2 (required knockouts)
Secrets: 6 of 11
Comsummables: many water arrows (7 remaining at the end)
Exceptions: two Snudges

If memory serves there is one spot with loot behind a banner that would require banner slashing for Perfect Thief. Also, for those who may know how Davidson's banners were Ghosted, there is no rope arrow leverage spot to use to transmigrate this banner.

Bravo! Richard Cull. And a first effort too!

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 11-01-2001 12:39 PM             

Play mode: Ghost (success - but incomplete)
Time: 15 min
Loot: 0 of 0 (no fun here at all)
Damage dealt: 0 Taken: 0 Healing: 0
Killed: 0

Comments:
- This mission had to be abandoned. The author screwed up and one of the "arena" areas has no usable exit. Other users have also commented that this room is the same spot where they get stuck. I ghosted successfully up to this room. See below for description.
- I get to the arena where a servant patrols and there is a guard standing 3 feet away from the double exit doors which are fully lit. I have to douse all torches (4), 2 each side of the door and 2 back above the entry gate so I can get to and through the exit doors unnoticed. This makes the room pitch black, a defect noted by other players (some have used dromed to up the ambient light level so they don't become completely blinded). Since there is no sense of touch available, vision must make up for the loss of the sense of touch, so the ambient light level should never be zero.
- The next room after this one is where there is no exit. After exiting through the double doors mentioned above, there is an elevated wooden hallway to stairs going down to the room. I can manage to sneak down to the bottom of the stairs but it takes a lot of patience. Lighting is very fakey in this mission. I can dash over to behind some barrels and only get a 1st alert from the exit gate guards. I can also crouch and sneak along some ore crates but apparently the guards have been given superhuman vision as they can see through the nearest 2 crates (piled 2 high and I'm well below below). When behind the barrels and crates, I'm still at the top end of the yellow range for the light gem; I'm out of the direct line with the light but there's no shadows to find (i.e., lighting is screwed up and not sourced correctly). Lighting is electric; it cannot be doused and there is no switch. The gate lever is in the middle right of the room and impossible to get to without getting easily noticed by the guards. However, the gate lever doesn't work; flip it and the gate doesn't open, flip it over a dozen fore and aft throws and the gate still doesn't open. There is a window opening at the backside of the room by the barrels; I moved a barrel over to under the window but the bottom ledge of the window is too high and Garret cannot mantle out. I played tag with the guards while searching for switches or other triggers but there aren't any. Other players have remarked that they, too, have never been able to complete this mission because there is no usable exit from this room.

Because the author screwed up this room so it has no usable exit, and because lighting is very poor (total black when torches are doused, or highly lit when out of direct light path), this mission had to be abandoned. I'll just delete it and go onto another good FM.

[This message has been edited by Vanguard (edited 12-14-2001).]

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 11-01-2001 04:56 PM             

Play mode: Ghost (incomplete failed)
Time: 2 hr 39 min
Loot: 2709 of 2839 (2000 required)
Killed: 0

Cause(s) of failure:
- Fat boy in bank will spot me leaping over the teller wall even at the far end.

Comments:
- There was only one AI that I could not ghost: the portly gent in the bank. He sees me leap the teller wall next to him and can even see me leap the wall on the opposite end of the room. His point of view is slightly angled toward the opposite side so I figured I'd move him over there. I couldn't snudge him much out of the way. He's against a chair and the only direction to snudge him is toward the teller wall. I then jumped atop the table and attempted to snudge him across the room but that lit me up by the electric light and the teller on the other side of the half wall spotted me. So I went to the opposite end of the room, mossed both tables each side of the half wall (to silence my jump) and tried to leap over the wall. The portly gent still spotted me as I was in mid-air and illuminated by the electric light. This guy reacts damn quick. When the portly gent alerted, he'd lean forward, turn sideways, and then resume his stance and say "Don't know what it was." I still think this was a 2nd level alert and not a 1st alert, like "Did you see that?" or "I thought I saw/heard something. Must've been rats." The teller was ghostable, though.
- Had to waste moss arrows on tile floor near St. Augustine statue. Kept flying off the rope used to get into the room with the balcony guard (and where is the generator and gate switch). Had to leap onto the rope, fly up (and often off of it sideways), and hope I snagged it on the fall. Had time for a few climb attempts before the Hammer would turn around on his circular trek and the moss eliminated getting busted by the fly-offs and hitting the tile floor.
- Had to snudge a couple guards to get them out of the way. At start, there's a guard at the top of the stairs which is lit by an undousable candle. Used a rope to come up from behind. Couldn't use rope to go down; have to jump off which makes noise (and didn't want to waste a moss arrow but don't remember if I had any yet). Snudged the guard past the top of the stairs and against the wall to take the stairs back down. Know I snudged one or a couple more guards after that but don't remember where.
- After opening the gate and going through it, the next room (after the small bridge) is an archery practice area where there are 2 guards. The mission is hardwired to trigger one of the guards when the door opens. He's not even facing the door. Since no other opening doors trigger AIs, I consider this a cheat to artificially put a guard on 2nd alert - so I discount it. Only the high-strung portly gent in the bank I consider prevented a 100% ghost.

[This message has been edited by Vanguard (edited 12-14-2001).]

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 11-02-2001 06:31 PM             

Play mode: Ghost (incomplete failed)
Time: 1 hr 22 min
Loot: 1767 of 1879 (1400 required)
Pockets picked: 5 of 6
Damage dealt: 0 Taken: 4 Healing: 0
Killed: 4

Cause(s) of failure:
- Could not get holy hammer in cell yard populated by bouncing frogbeasts.
- Cannot ghost lil green spiders in sewers.

Comments:
- At the bottom level of the 2nd set of cells are 4 hyperactive frogbeasts that continually leap and cover the entire floor area. Apparently they also have rudders on their butts to redirect their farts since they can change course in mid-air. No way to get to holy hammer in there (which is required later) without killing the frogs. Their explosions do not alert the guards or the remaining frogs. It's tough and take many retries to hit leaping frogs; I found a spot they all seem to land and would release when I'd see them heading toward it on their downward flight to land.
- Once past the Dome of Death room, the double doors won't open; can't be picked, don't have the key yet. Left the holy hammer on the toilet and jumped down the broken seat into the sewers. Oh, what fun we thiefsies have. I cannot ghost the red spider nor the lil green ones down there. I can make it past the red spider okay but there's 3 lil greenies at the end that see me. The red spider comes back too quick to time when the greenies will be facing away. So instead of wasting arrows, I just ran past the greenies to the exit ladder and left. The red spider didn't see me, and usually one of the lil greenies spot me. So that busted my ghost.
- While the holy hammer can also be used to dispatch the warden, the warden explodes and kills you, too. I can toss the holy hammer while leaning at the warden (when he's atop the holy tile inlay on the floor) and release the lean when I toss the hammer to slide back behind the wall next to the inside door (in the room leading to the vault room). Lean around, toss, release to shield, boom. Surprisingly, his explosion doesn't alert nearby guards or even the zombie patrolling the adjacent hallway.
- You can't get out the front door to leave out the front gate; even with all 4 torches doused in the front courtyard, the area by the front door in the courtyard is way too well lit (by absolutely no light sources so it's phoney). Don't bother going back through the prison; you won't get back up the chimney you took to get inside at the start of the mission - unless maybe you want to do a ton of running around to grab some crates and see if stacking them inside the chimney will get you out. After dousing the courtyard torches, I squeaked by one of the haunts overlooking the small courtyard (the one by the door) and dropped to the courtyard below. You dark while squeaking by the haunt, during your fall, and on landing so you won't get busted. You can then sneak out the front gate.

Oops. I made an error when ghosting this mission. I thought I needed the holy hammer so I could dispatch the warden near the end of the mission (rather than use the holy sword which ends up getting me killed when the warden blows up). This meant I had to dispatch the sploder frogs to get at the holy hammer back at the bottom of the 2nd set of cells. However, I noticed the objectives don't say that I have to kill the warden. Don't know where I got the idea that he had to die other than he really deserved it. So I replayed from a save, didn't bother with the holy hammer and the frogs, and left the warden alive (or whatever is his animated state). That cut 29 minutes off my time but I also got a little less loot (must've missed some along the way; I think I forgot the wood chest behind the 2 haunts guarding the stairs by the moat after getting past the sewer spiders). My better ghost stats (still a failure because of the sewer spiders) are:

Play mode: Ghost (still incomplete failed)
Time: 53 min
Loot: 1667 of 1879 (1400 required)
Pockets picked: 5 of 6
Damage dealt: 0 Taken: 4 Healing: 0
Killed: 0

Cause(s) of failure:
- Cannot ghost lil green spiders in sewers.

Okay, I feel better at the no kill stat. But after this long of solid ghosting, I then went back in non-ghost mode and dispatched the warden and every haunt, zombie, and spider just to appease my frustration. Couldn't get at the zombies in the cells since there's no way to open them up, and they didn't volunteer to come out to "play."

[This message has been edited by Vanguard (edited 12-14-2001).]

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 11-02-2001 08:34 PM             

Play mode: Ghost (failed - abandoned ghosting, also bugs in this FM)

Cause(s) for failure:
- Too many torches, way too few water arrows, none to be found.
- Dousing any torch makes that area pitch black. Can't see.
- Mission won't end.

Comments:
- This FM suffers ambient light defects. Douse a torch and the room becomes pitch black. Might as well turn off the monitor and play Blind Thief mode.
- Sound is also screwed up several places. A servant girl walks down stairs and makes not a footfall sound, so you'll never know when she's headed up or down. Let's play Deaf Thief mode.
- Climb a ladder to get to a walkway but you'll get stuck at the top of the ladder; i.e., can't climb up and off the ladder. Choices are to climb back down to where you started or jump off at the top or somewhere along the ladder. Pointless.
- This mission has torches everywhere! You start with only 8 water arrows. There are NO water arrows to find in the mission. The mission is likely to be impossible because of all the torch lighting and the dearth of water arrows. For example, at the back is a shed with 3 guards. You'll have to douse 4 torches just here to get down to and into the shed but you'll only have 1 or 2, if any, by the time you get here. And when you douse a torch on the inside of the shed, the guards go on 2nd level alert. Phoney, especially since they didn't react at all to the outside torches, not even a 1st alert. There's a blue key in a wood chest in there which I presume I'll need for something; I haven't ran across an FM yet that provided a key that didn't open something.

Because it'll be impossible to continue without more water arrows, ghosting became impossible. And dousing the torches made it pitch black. The author forgot that there is no sense of touch available and that lighting is to be provided to Garret in lieu of touch. There may be a possibility that this mission could be ghosted but I found it a waste of time when so many better FMs are out there. For now, I'll scrap this FM for ghosting, revert to blackjack-em-all mode, and lure them into the dark.

Went blackjacking and found yet another bug. Tap the servant girl, she keels over, but won't go down. She'll make the comments "What's that" followed by "Nothing here now" as she continues on her way unalerted. Tap her too many times and she dies and the mission ends because of the no-kill objective. That's one strong lady that reacts to a blackjack whack like it was a fly buzzing by her ear.

Can't get the mission to end. Last objective is to get to the street. Apparently that is NOT from where you started the mission. Can't find a street. No key for front door so I bashed it down with the sword and found a star field (i.e., undefined boundary of design block) and pressing against it like I was trying to exit to the street didn't work. Oh well, game's Quit menu works just fine.

[This message has been edited by Vanguard (edited 12-14-2001).]

Posts: 1223
From: London, Ontario, Canada
Registered: AUG 2000

posted 11-03-2001 01:45 PM         

Ghost: failure
Time 1:35:03
Loot: 2,129 of 2,629
Pockets: 5 of 6 (probably the dead Hammer's key is the sixth one and I got that)
Locks: 10
Bodies Discovered by Enemies: 1 (the other zombie)
Consumables: 4 water arrows (2 for jail, 2 for burricks)
Exceptions: One haunt and two zombies hammered to death(from the weapons room.) Solitary guard outside Montrose's bedroom also.

It still my be possible to Ghost the haunt/zombies room. I tried a few times and I found a position on the stairs near the tile floor that neither the haunt standing above or the patrolling zombie seemed too concerned about. Alas, I didn't try more than a few times beyond this and without luck.

The burricks can be ghosted by going down the ladder and dousing the two torches nearest the ladder when the patrolling burrick is furthest away.

BTW, the dead Hammerite down with the burricks had a key on his belt. I never did find anything that this key opened. Any suggestions?

I didn't Ghost the zombie below the elevator. I did try a while to access the alcoves above him from the lowered beam near the elevator without success.

The spiders are also Ghostable. In fact the rest of the mission is Ghostable.

No banners need be slashed. The switch for the loot room below the jail is frobbable through the banner and the tunnel behind the banner in the hallway just outside the jail can be gotten to by going up the nearby stairs and sliding between the powderkegs above the chapel. The boards blocking the other tunnel can be left unbroken by similarly going up the stairs. There's nothing there though.

I was able most times (4 of 6 or so) to exit and to end the mission without arousing the two guards there.

Posts: 1223
From: London, Ontario, Canada
Registered: AUG 2000

posted 11-03-2001 04:29 PM         

Time: 24:07
Loot: 1,390 of 1,590
Pockets: 5 of 5
Locks: 7
Consumables: 3 water arrows in the church, 1 on the ship's main deck
Exceptions: the same two snudges as Vanguard

Where's the other 200 loot?

Also the same key that opens the door to the church hallway also opens the other church door so Garrett can fit through. I had to lock this door behind me or the guard patrolling the hallway just outside would try to enter the church and get stuck. Just closing it wasn't good enough. He'd still come in. Had to be locked to keep him out. You could also get into the church by roping up from outside above the stationary hammer guard.

What's the secret book-button in the cabin belowdeck for? I pushed it then jumped into the water and swam completely around the ship but didn't notice anything.

There are two windows below the waterline aft but I couldn't work them. They looked like maybe they had handles on them but it was dark so I wasn't sure. Can hear the burricks but never saw them. Can Garrett frob stuff while in/under the water?

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 11-03-2001 06:24 PM             

Rameriz's Revenge:

I slashed the banner to the tunnel near start of mission because the powder kegs at the other end wouldn't move for me even when I'd run at them. But if you don't need the bootie in there to make the loot objective then you can just skip it altogether. I simply had forgotten to do a save before I slashed and accidently hit F11 (save) instead of F12 (reload) afterward to continue without having slashed. In T2, I move these key definitions so they're far apart.

I didn't bother taking the tunnel behind a crypt that has the spiders (couple lil greenies and a big one, too) to get into the cavern. I just opened the gate where the elevator stops (it's not locked) and hugged the wall on entering to prevent getting splattered by the boulder cannon. Since that tunnel is narrow and you'd have to step on or over the spiders, they must be pretty blind not to see you.

I couldn't ghost the zombie room (in the big building down in the caverns) because one zombie stood right in front of the ladder (to go up to the hammer icons to the chisel) and spins in place there. I did saves and reloads but it was still right at the ladder. I think the haunt overlooking the room can be ghosted by slithering along the right and back walls but then there's the other zombie that paces back and forth. Didn't find the sweet spot you mentioned.

Couldn't ghost the burricks. If I popped into the back cell from getting the chisel, the metal floor is noisy and too well lit on that end of the room. Didn't have a moss arrow. Couldn't fall off the ladder coming down the chimney; jumping made too much noise and still didn't have any moss arrows. Don't remember what the dead Hammerite's key opened. Too many authors just label it "key" rather than a descriptive title, but then there's no labels on my keys, either.

Did you manage to ghost the fast moving Hammerite pacing about in the 10-foot octagonal room that has 2 accolade's bedrooms and Montrose's bedroom? You can walk behind him to open Montrose's room with a key but there's no time to pick the lock to the leftside accolade's quarters (but don't recall if there is anything in there that you need, so maybe it can be skipped without detriment).

Stowaway:

On the ship, the burricks are 2 decks down and below the "office room". Don't remember if you click on the rug or need to find a switch. Don't recall a "book button" but there is a switch that opens a near-floor wall panel in a corner to some secret loot.

I don't think the below waterline windows on the ship will open. But what a cool way to ditch the ship in a hurry.

I got into the church by taking the elevator on the side of the building (on the same ramp that goes into the ship). Although this puts you right next to a lamp and you are fully lit, you'll only get a 1st alert from the guards on the ship.

I remember having a tough time trying to squeeze through the church door (the inner one that is to the church area itself) and almost got spotted by the roving guard. Opening the other door makes it easier but I wasn't sure about lighting. Sometimes Garret acts like he's a overly wide in the middle, but I'd suspect the townsfolk might suspect a thief jogging at 2AM. Didn't experience the bug where the roving guard enters the church when I left the door open, but there's lots of Hammerites and a mage in the church already so another wouldn't be much change. I used the door to get into the church but recall that I roped to the ceiling beams to get out.

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 11-03-2001 07:15 PM             

Play mode: Ghost (success)
Time: 1 hr 37 min
Loot: 1585 of 1675 (1500 required)
Pockets picked: 2 of 2
Damage dealt: 0 Taken: 0 Healing: 0
Killed: 0

Comments:
- After getting into the evidence room, you must close the door and do the same when you leave. Otherwise the guard that visits this area will alert if he sees the door is open.
- Ghosting the guards in the watch room overlooking the highly lit door to Sgt Billings quarters is tough (you need the key in there to turn off the floodlights to the gate for the 2nd half of the compound). Crept from the kitchen door and got to Sgt. Billings door to pick it with just a first alert but couldn't sneak back out without getting spotted. However, jumping while dark from the door sill onto the grass minimizes the time you're visible and you'll only get a 1st alert.
- I turned off the floodlights but while waiting for the guard down there to turn away another then came in and turned the lights back on. Another time I got out quick and was sneaking toward the courtyard with the floodlights when they came back on. Surprise! The guard made it down to the switch room before I could sneak past the courtyard and through the gate. Nothing like being in the middle of a courtyard when the lights come on. "Hey, guys, you didn't happen to see a big white rabbit go through here, did you? Hey, look over there! (you point and dash off)."

This mission has a bug that it will not end even when all objectives have been met and you get to where it says to end the mission. You'll have to hit Ctrl-Alt-Shift-End to force the end of the mission.

[This message has been edited by Vanguard (edited 12-14-2001).]

Posts: 1223
From: London, Ontario, Canada
Registered: AUG 2000

posted 11-05-2001 05:11 PM         

Ghost: Failure
Time: 1:50:01
Loot: 1,604 of 1,604
Pockets: 3 of 3
Locks: 13
Consumables: numerous water arrows, moss arrows for flaming haunt around zombie pit.

I'd thought I'd Ghosted this one but while I was retracing my steps looking for the "way out" I came across that second spider on the way in. He was facing the wrong way. So, I restarted and tried a bunch of times to Ghost him again with no joy. This spider is odd. He doesn't pivot but remains facing the same way until Garrett passes. If you rush by him and don't look back there's no evidence you've been busted. He sometimes makes no sounds. However, he seems consistently to swivel to face Garrett as he passes. Without exception. Plus every time I tried and looked back he had his front legs up in search mode even though he didn't move from his spot.

Dread is a nice change of pace. Very different architecture. Some of the AI can get stuck trying to slide by corners and bumps in walls. One of the few times I've gotten all the loot the first pass through.

Thanks, amievil!

[This message has been edited by Old Man (edited 11-06-2001).]

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

Posts: 1223
From: London, Ontario, Canada
Registered: AUG 2000

Posts: 5175
From: Knoxville, TN
Registered: JUN 1999

posted 11-06-2001 08:16 AM         

This is the first time I have tried to Ghost an entire mission in months, and I must say that this old Ghosting curmudgeon is a bit rusty.

Actually it was fun, and it had some surprises. The Ghosts here who are all warmed up would think this mission is a bit ho-hum(anyone who would actually want and try to Ghost Calendra's or The Keep has definitely moved on to the next level).

The minor problem areas are the pool dressing room areas(all tile), the short hallway immediately outside them leading to the main hall, and the accountant's office.

1.) The dressing rooms just require a lot of CCCing and using the benches as hiding places. Also, I found that to jump through the opening to get the loot in the storage areas is preferable to going out into the hall and back in through the second door behind the counter. See #2.

2.) I didn't pay attention to the patrol pattern in the short hallway with the female guard, and it cost me doing this mission in one continuous run. The guard hugs the walls a bit on each patrol circuit, so you just can't run into the dark corner and wait, she'll bump into you.

3.) Getting upstairs via the main stairs requires finding the eyesight limitation of the female counter girl in green to see where to climb the steps at. I guessed right the first time, then went back for fun and tried walking the steps like the patrolling guard does, and got busted by the girl in the green dress.

4.) The accountant's office is just timing. You have to use that old Ghosting technique of walking in the footsteps of the accountant and hugging her right hip as she pivots left to look at the safe. She's an idiot though; I left the safe open after robbing it and she didn't raise the alarm. I thought I was busted there for sure. The secret pit with the dead Hammer is just timing as well; partially climb the rope until you can hear and position her footsteps properly, then exit.

I drew a temporary blank on who had the key to the boardroom, but recovered quickly and finished out by getting the 3rd Prize. The little patrol bot upstairs nearly busted me on the way out...like I said, I'm really rusty.

I used no moss at all, and only 1 or 2 water arrows I think. Call me the Frugal Ghost.

An excellent mission for Ghosting, and it would be a good attempt for someone who has never tried this method of play before.

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 11-06-2001 09:55 AM             

Play mode: Ghost (incomplete failed)
Time: 3 hr 32 m
Loot: 2839 of 3001 (2600 required)
Pockets picked: 5 of 5
Knockouts: 2 (goofy guard by safe, servant)
Damage dealt: 17 Taken: 0 Healing: 0
Killed: 0

Cause(s) of failure:
- Phony instant teleport of sleeping guard to an awakened position that block the only exit. He hears the safe lockpicking that the patrolling guards do not.
- Servant is triggered to alert when crossing a door threshold.
- Bellyflop splash when stepping down into shallow water fully alerts the red sewer spider.

Comments:
- Had to use snudging several times in this mission. Dove into the well at start of mission and came up behind a guard overlooking the stairs and the tunnel below it, so had to snudge him into the corner so both were out of his view. Didn't have any water arrows yet to darken the area. You could get into Binclair's mansion by going around to the other end and coming in through the garden and balcony. Inside I had to snudge a guard forward against the wall to get coins and a gem in a room near Binclair's bedroom that had a large bath pool and gambling tables. Snudged the guard in the basement to get a fire arrow in a recess he was overlooking (didn't need it but I try to get everything I find).
- I got into the barricks and opened the safe. This pops up a sleeping guard and sticks him right between the bunk beds on the only path to exit that room. He faces my direction so there's no way to snudge him nor could I crouch and creep by; he sees me when I get close even when he goes back to snoring while still standing there. Tried quicksave and quickload several times to see if he'd pop up at a different spot or face a different direction but no luck. Had to tap him to prevent him from alerting the other patrolling guards that pass him. This busted my ghosting. The beds are not defined to let Garret slip through between the upper and lower berth or mantle over them. None of the other guards, even the awake patrolling ones, alert when I'm in the captain's room with the safe and open it, so this is a hardwired trigger defined in the mission and makes it rather fakey. The guard should awaken but not instantly teleport to this particular spot.
- In the safe is the living area key where there is a servant standing facing a painting on the wall with a wood chest in front. There's also some cheese in the opposite corner with a plaque noting it's for a mouse (no trap so it must be a pet). I snudged the servant against the wall to open the chest and hopefully get out the door to the next hallway to his left. I can manage to creep and sneak to the door threshold although while at the top end of the yellow alert for the light gem but only get a 1st alert from the servant. There a 100% dark spot on the door threshold where the servant will eventually go off alert (as I wait for the hall guard to go away). I've tried jumping from total dark from the door sill onto the hall mat and going sideways so I go out of view quickly but the servant still alerts. I've tried creeping extremely slowly from the dark spot on the door sill to around the door side; I'm no more lit than when I approached the door sill but the servant still alerts. I mossed the floor to the side of the door and crouched and scooted around the door side but still got busted. I think it's another triggered event in the mission. To prevent him from alerting others, had to tap him so that also busted my ghost. Also, if I leave him alerted (but no other guard is around so he doesn't alert anyone else) and come back to this room later, he has turned 90 degrees and is stuck facing the door making it even more impossible to get through the door.
- Fact is, many door thresholds are poorly defined. They are not perfectly level with the floor. When creeping or even walking (on the tile floors that plague this place), Garret often gets stuck at a door threshold. I have to back him up and try again, sometimes using some added speed to get him over the 1/16-inch difference.
- Cannot ghost the red spider in the upper recess above the hub of the sewers. Garret doesn't know how to slide into water quietly and instead makes a belly flop splash. I've tried crouching and creeping at an angle to slow his rate of descent when he steps into the 3 inches of water but he still makes a huge splash. This puts the red spider on 2nd alert. Since it's stuck there and alerts nothing else, you can just leave it pissed off up there. I know in other missions that Garret sometimes makes no noise when stepping into water so I think the author either made this deliberate or forgot to remove or attenuate the sound attribute. For example, when I get up on the well at the start of the mission and crouch, sliding into the water makes no sound.
- When walking down the sewer tunnels (walking, not crouched), I can hear a zombie groan above (at the same level as the red spider). I move quick so it doesn't wake but I haven't yet found how to get to wherever is the access to that zombie (and the spider).
- Finding Romeo probably consumed 40 minutes of sneaking around throughout the entire mission. I had played this mission twice before and had abandoned it when I couldn't find Romeo. Hint: Find the "clock" room (near Binclair's observatory).
- Finding the medallion consumed probably another hour. I finally got tired of sneaking around trying to find it, did a save, and went blackjacking all AIs to make searching easier. Found a little piece of the red button to open a secret panel. Looks like the author used a pushbutton control as the trigger but layered it wrong so most of it is submerged under the surface of another object. Hint: Dine in style.
- One ladder from the sewers leads into a shed by Ceaner's place. I hauled Romeo to the Ceaner's front gate, over the fence and onto the front steps, in the hallway by the front door, in the 2nd floor hallway, but the objective to return Romeo to Ceaner's did not get checked off. Then I notice it was checked off when I was in the shed but if I drop him there then the objective gets unchecked. Found out later this objective is linked with the another that says to inconspicuously return some evidence to Ceaner. The only evidence that shows Binclair kidnapped or abetted is the letter in the "clock" room in his mansion. But you can't take that letter with you, so apparently you are the evidence. Without Romeo, and after reading this letter, me getting into Ceaner's checked off the "get evidence to Ceaner's" objective but previously the "return Romeo" objective only got checked off when I was carrying him and was in the shed. Turns out that after reading the letter that the "return Romeo" objective will then get checked off when I'm inside Ceaner's along with the "give evidence" objective, so now both get checked off concurrently at the same spot and the mission can end.
- A later [new] objective is to get Binclair's quilt; must be expensive otherwise why would Garret want it? Figured it'd be on his bed, hanging on a wall, draped somewhere, or in a drawer. Nope. Look for a simple looking plain bedroll. When you pick it up, the status line says it's "Binclair's blanket". A quilt is a blanket but a blanket isn't always a quilt. But on checking the objectives list, picking up the bed roll "blanket" satisfied the "quilt" objective.

A fun mission except when I spent a long time hunting around for Romeo and the medallion but then it got fun again. Don't appreciate the phony triggers that wakes a sleeping guard for no reason (and dumps him right in the only exit path and looking my way), or the servant that can see perfectly at 90 degrees, or the 3-inch step into water in the sewer hub that creates a huge bellyflop splash noise to alert the spider.

[This message has been edited by Vanguard (edited 12-14-2001).]

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 11-07-2001 09:14 AM             

Play mode: Ghost (success - up to the forced abort)
Time: 4 hr 0 min
Loot: 2237 of 4922 (2000 required)
Pockets picked: 8 of 9
Knockouts: 1 (Ragnor objective)
Damage dealt: 1 Taken: 0 Healing: 0
Killed: 0

NOTE: I had to abandon this mission. Mercedes gets stuck continually walking into a gate (near the weapons shop and by Alharazad's where you deposit Ragnor). She won't flip the gate switch behind her. Have tried reloads, starting a new game in both Expert and Normal modes, flipping none and all levers in the furnace room, and many other actions. Don't know dromed so can't go into the mission to delete the gate or force it always open. This is the patched version of the FM. I've previously played the unpatched version and did not encounter this bug. (See http://www.eidosgames.com/ubb/Forum24/HTML/008434.html discussing the problem in a separate thread.)

Comments:
- Unless you have a photographic memory (and read the first version of the objectives before starting to play the mission), you won't be able to find Ragnor. He doesn't identify himself, no AI addresses him by name, and there's nothing unique that will identify him - unless you remember the first version of the objectives. You'll have to save, go blackjacking so you can pick up the bodies and see which one gets identified as Ragnor, then reload and go tap just him. The first set of objectives, those that display when you load a new game and before you click Continue to start playing the FM, tells you that Ragnor wears gold armor. So I kept trying to find an AI wearing armor. The extent of his "armor" is a gold helmet; his sleeves are also golden but it's cloth, not armor.
- In Alharazad's house is something you need behind a banner. You can frob through it; no slashing required.
- Even with the roving AIs at their max distance away, getting the severed head out of the chest behind the altar usually ends up alerting the guards up on the inside balcony overlooking the church or will cause Calendra to come over to investigate (although she's no longer in the next room and can't be found anywhere; she's past the shrine door). The head screams when the chest is opened, and you can't feed it a frog egg before opening the chest. You can't flip the chest cover open and close real quick because opening it immediately puts it in your inventory. I opened the trap door behind the chest and tossed the head down there as soon as I grabbed it and slammed the door shut. Took several times of practicing this before it looked like no AI got alerted. Sometimes the trap door would fly off into the wall and disappear and the AIs would alert from the howl coming out of the shaft. I think I managed to ghost this action after a couple dozen different style attempts but I can't see the balcony guards to be sure; by the time I get them in view, their not hunting around (but I could swear the red Hammer with the sword moved from his standing spot).
- Found a sunburst device (i.e., big bomb) near Calendra's house. Breaking the window to get it will always trigger the alarm to go off at Calendra's house. The guards don't get alerted to the breakage noise; the window is hooked into the alarm (and the alarm will alert the guards). Even if I wasn't ghosting, what would I need this for? The creature in the shrine pit? Nah, I can simply run away after plucking the celix (or use the inviso potion). When ghosting, I haven't yet found a use for this big bomb.
- After sneaking into Calendra's bedroom, opening the door with the guard there (with his back to you) will set him off - if you let the door opened fully. You can quickly flip the door open and close to see if he's there, but just don't let it come to a stop when opening it. The guards will notice the jewel box and/or secret wall recess open, so close them when you leave. I think the vase in the dining room is rigged; if I took it, the alarm went off.
- In the crypt under Calendra's house, taking any loot will bust your ghost job. Taking one item will set off the bouncing skull. Taking 2 or more makes the zombie appear out of nowhere. Had to abandon the 255 in loot that is there. So make sure you won't need these goodies to make the loot objective. This hardwired trigger will make Perfect Thief impossible.
- There's no way to purely ghost your way to and through the shrine door. A guard watches over the door from only a couple feet away and the room is completely lit with undousable unsourced lights. Completing the "reassemble Brother Adrius" objective will let you sort of ghost your way into the shrine - because it kills off the guards and party guests for. Hey, it wasn't *me* they spotted and they won't see me - because they're now dead. So I can also now get at loot that was impossible to ghost before.
- When reassembling Brother Adrius, you'll hear a hammer ting noise when you get close. When you get closer, you'll hear his voice. The wine cellar in the tavern drove me nuts for awhile because you'll hear the ting noise in there, but that's just mood noise and you get faked out.
- Finding the torso was tough because the clues are a bit misleading. "It's so high, I hope you can fly" and "Wind whistling through my chest" kept leading me back to the bell tower but the torso wasn't there. Turns out the torso wasn't so high afterall and had nothing to do with jumping (to be in the air to "fly").
- Had to moss up the red dish in the observatory where the body parts are reassembled. There's a lil green spider right at the ironbar door. I could drop most parts on the rim of the dish to minimize their fall height so they made no noise, but one of the body parts always made too much noise and put the spider on full alert.
- The reassembled haunt is an even match for the zombie. I had to wait until they "danced" their way somewhere where the zombie wouldn't spot me going down to the shrine. The haunt bounces all over and often backsteps. Eventually he'll bounce his way up and out of the shrine tunnel and he's dancing with zombie somewhere in another party room. The zombie will alert if he spots you, stop fighting the haunt, and hunt you despite the haunt still "playing" with him. So I had to wait until they moved somewhere so I could sneak past the zombie unnoticed. I can relock the shrine door to keep the haunt from coming down to partake of the "games" between Calendra and Brimstone and their pals. The zombie that's left is highly sensitized, however, in that it has 270-degree vision (I'm behind it and it spots me). So letting the haunt and zombie eventually dance out of the way works well.
- Tried to snatch the celix without having to use the invisibility potion received upon reassembling Brother Adrius. I mossed the crunchy ground but the creature circles too quickly for me to get in and out without being lit up and spotted, even if I scoot up and trail right behind the creature. Had to use the inviso potion.
- Just for curiousity, I decided to tail Mercedes when she left the wine cellar from the first meeting. She goes down the stairs, turns left, passes the well, goes into the open room (maybe for dining since there are tables, bottles, and glasses), stops, and then - poof - just disappears. Wow, tricky little vixen, or maybe she downed a invisibility potion.

[This message has been edited by Vanguard (edited 12-14-2001).]

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 11-07-2001 11:56 AM             

Play mode: Ghost (failed)
Time: 28 min
Loot: 225 of 875 (0 required)
Pockets picked: 1 of 1
Knockouts: 3
Damage dealt: 3 Taken: 0 Healing: 0
Killed: 0

Cause(s) of failure:
- Recess behind openable painting in shed is too far away to get medallion (a required objective). Shed is highly lit and the Hammerite in there constantly faces the only entrace into the shed.

Comments:
- FM needs work. Stair steps are too high or have edges atop them making walking up them very difficult. Chest tangs don't wobble when picking their lock. Several doors open (by picking or bashing) but lead nowhere. Fat men have overly exceptional visual side motion detection no matter how slowly you creep, so lots of loot had to be abandoned. Never found a use for the key lifted from a Hammerite's belt. Second stonewall door in tunnel behind church doesn't open; switch in Hammerite's shed opens the 1st door but couldn't find the trigger to open the 2nd door (and using the switch in the tunnel to close the 1st door didn't open the second). But nothing is required in there since the only 2 remaining objectives were completed elsewhere.
- Unable to ghost the Hammerite in the shed behind the church. I can crouch and sneak up against the outside Hammerite next to the door and snudge him out of the way. The mage paces a short walk between the inside of the shed to the front door of the church. I can lean and hook while dark into the shed to move the painting and open the secret panel, but the panel opens towards you and gets in the way of trying to highlight the medallion (to snatch it). The medallion is probably too far away from this lean & hook around the door to reach it. The inside of the shed is highly lit up but there are absolutely no light sources. Real fakey. Unable to lean in far enough while dark to tap the Hammerite inside and drag him out before the mage returned and spotted his body (so as to minimize my knockout count to only 1); he's too far in and alerts immediately no matter how fast I run in to tap him. Had to make noise to lure him out, which alerts the outside Hammerite and the mage. Tapped all 3.
- Getting the hand of glory is tough to ghost but doable. There are 2 guards each side of the door, one at a slight angle towards the door. You can sneak up close enough to the door while still dark to pick it open but getting in unnoticed is iffy. You get fully light by an electric floodlight over the door. Dashing in while crouched works best but you'll have to make several tries; the guards might not say anything but you're busted if they move their feet as though to perform a quick search. The guard looking a bit towards the door also might freeze in an attack position when alerted; no sound but his sword is up and he's leaning forward a bit as though he started to go into hunt mode but got frozen in place. It took me 4 tries before I got in without an alert, without them shuffling their feet, and without the one guard turning into a statue in startup hunt mode.
- Inside there's a switch that is almost impossible to see. Back off from it and lean forward to highlight, or just click it through the object that it's mounted under.

This is a short mission and very probably someone's first or second attempt. Needs work on stairs, locks, etc., but even then it'd still be too small for much fun whether ghosting or not. There's only 2 objectives so there's not much to do, either.

[This message has been edited by Vanguard (edited 11-07-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Vanguard (edited 12-14-2001).]

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 11-07-2001 12:51 PM             

Play mode: Ghost (probably impossible)
Time: FM aborted
Loot: Don't care.

Comments:
- I can sneak past the guards at the front door by snudging the left one (no key) over to get behind him. Now I'm directly behind the guards. The front door cannot be picked. Lifting the key from the right guard's belt puts him on full alert. Apparently Garret has amnesia and has forgotten much of his skills as a thief, but then why is he thieving if he doesn't remember it anymore? Authors sometimes forget that Garret has no sense of touch; ambient lighting should be elevated enough so he can still see while totally black or can see to some degree into very dark areas to compensate for his lack of touch.
- This is one of those FMs where there's either light or there's pitch black darkness and you can't see a thing. While totally hidden in the black, guards still alert when they approach rather than walk by. Walk into a darkened sleeping room (although there's a torch right across the hall from the opened door) with 2 snoring guards and you haven't a clue what's in there, how close you are, if there's another exit, or anything.

I play Ghost mode in Thief. I do not play Blind Thief. In much of this mission, you might as well as turn off the monitor. Yeah, like that's fun. No thanks, time to dump this FM and move on.

[This message has been edited by Vanguard (edited 11-07-2001).]

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 11-07-2001 02:29 PM             

Play mode: Ghost (success)
Time: 58 min
Loot: 1253 of 1278 (1200 required - way too much)
Pockets Picked: 3 of 5
Damage dealt: 1 Taken: 0 Healing: 0
Killed: 1 (required)

Comments:
- The 1200 loot required almost forces gameplay into Perfect Thief mode. I think only one more snatch remained for the 25 loot left.
- Rather than using the sword or arrows to kill Lord Jacob and risk the guards getting alerted right outside of his chambers, I tapped him and tossed him off his balcony to drown in the waters below.
- Ghosting the spiders in the caverns was real tricky. Swam low toward where tunnel exits from cavern and mantled up in the dark along the shore. Then crept around staying to the rightside of the tunnel (and as far up the wall as I could go) to stay dark. Thought for sure the glowing mushroom was going to make the tunnel too bright and I'd get busted there, but creeping and edging up the sloped side of the tunnel worked.

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 11-07-2001 05:26 PM             

Play mode: Ghost (failed)
Time: 1 hr 10 min
Loot: 1645 of 1745 (1300 required)
Pockets picked: 1 of 4
Knockouts: 0
Damage dealt: 0 Taken: 0 Healing: 0
Killed: 0

Cause(s) of failure:
- Stationery fire elemental across broken bridge had to be doused, and is in the only route to chapel to get holy grail (an objective).

Comments:
- Although the Killed stat says zero, I did have to douse a fire elemental. On entering the chapel to get the holy grail, there is a fire elemental that hovers right at one of the ends of the broken stone bridge. There is no other way to get across to the chapel and there are no dark spots. Had to douse the fire elemental since I'd have to run right through it to make the jump. The other fire elemental on the other side (near the chapel) starts to wander in a square shaped route but settles after 3 or 4 passes, so it might've gotten alerted, too, but went back to rest pretty quick, or maybe it just gets triggered to start moving. After dousing the first one and jumping over into the shadows, the second one was not making any noises (as if on alert).
- Mossed up the other side of the broken stone bridge, jumped, and ran into the dark without getting spotted by the other fire elemental. Managed to ghost around that fire elemental going into and out of the chapel and it didn't alert when I jumped back over the stone bridge. Probably is facing the chapel and didn't see me when I got fully lit jumping over the bridge.

[This message has been edited by Vanguard (edited 12-14-2001).]

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 11-07-2001 09:52 PM             

Play mode: Ghost (failed)
Time: 1 hr 46 min
Loot: 2173 of 2238 (1918 required, 1308 gold + 610 gems)
Pockets picked: 3 of 5
Knockouts: 3 (female leader required, 2 kitchen servants)
Damage dealt: 423 Taken: 0 Healing: 0
Killed: 2 (female leader & mummified Constantine, required)

Cause(s) of failure:
- Cannot get through kitchen; 2 servants have it under full view, candle keeps kitchen lit up. Tapping one causes other to keel over, too, forcing tap of both.
- Could not ghost past the caged zombies. They constantly watch the entrance to the statue room where you are required to bring body parts to open another door in their view.

Comments:
- If you get up on the west outside wall along the design boundary and behind a building, you'll find a plaque that asks how the hell you got there.
- You can take roofs to get around the archer at the front entrance without having to waste any water arrows. To get down, follow the roofs along the west side and slide against the west wall down into the open area; there's a ledge there that'll slow your fall so you won't incur damage. Be careful not to get too high on the roofs. This mission has a bug that it'll crash back to the Windows desktop if your head hits the sky in some places or if you get texture "flutter" when rotating your view.
- In the kitchen are 2 servants. They never leave the small kitchen and manage to maintain a view over all of it. Torches can be doused but there's an undousable candle so you'll be way too lit when trying to sneak through. I tried to tap only one of the servants and drag him out to minimize how many knockouts I'd get stuck with in my busted ghost job. However, the other servant also bent her head as if I also hit her at the exact moment I hit the male servant and she alerted, so I had to tap both. They must be empathically linked. Yeah, right.
- Couldn't ghost past the caged zombies when trying to get into the room with the statue and where you deposit the body parts to open the door (that leads to the necromancer). Choices are to leave them agitated and noisy in their caged cell or drop in from behind and whack each with the sword and leave them behind (since they're no more dead than before but would be much quieter) but quiet. Either way this busted my ghost job (along with the kitchen servants).
- Killing Constantine, a required objective, requires you take him to where you can "cook" him royal.
- Killing the leader (to look like an accident), another objective, was way too easy once I found her.

[This message has been edited by Vanguard (edited 12-14-2001).]

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 11-08-2001 04:43 PM             

Play mode: Ghost (failed - due to hardwired triggers)
Time: 3 hr 5 min
Loot: 2919 of 3044 (2500 required)
Knockouts: 2 (watch guards to Saldic tomb)
Damage dealt: 2 Taken: 0 Healing: 0
Killed: 0

Cause(s) of failure:
- Several hardwired triggers (based on Garret's position and nothing he interacts with) force AIs to go on full alert.

Comments:
- The author has implemented triggers within this FM which are *not* activated by anything Garret touches or steps on. They are positional triggers; i.e., you *have* to take a certain path and along that path the author activates splatballs that will alert AIs when they smack against the far wall, or simply puts the zombies on full alert (with accompanying thunder and lightning) as when entering the graveyard. If you discount these impossible to avoid triggers (and the AIs they alert) then I "conditionally" ghosted this mission; otherwise, ghosting of this mission is impossible.
- In the town and in the thief's quarters is a fireplace. The author either forgot to allow room so Garret can waddle thus you cannot exit from the fireplace, or maybe this was done deliberately to make the fireplace a trap. Once in the fireplace you can't get out, so lean in.
- When you enter the graveyard but only for the first time, lightning goes off along with thunder and the zombies patrolling outside the gate get alerted. Thinking it was because I was lit when I entered (although all of the zombies were facing away), I managed to douse the torch on the inside of the graveyard gate but still got the thunder and flash on entering. This is a fakey trigger defined within the mission that cannot be avoided. Again, if you discount the forced triggered events and AI alerts they cause that are defined within this FM, I ghosted it.
- Got to entrance to Ramesis tomb and opened the passages to other tombs by the lava pool. On the way to Ailmar's tomb, you have to pass through a hallway that fires off splatballs. Their collision with the far wall above the stairs sets off the guards down in that room whether you are entering or exiting Ailmar's tomb. There are no floor panels to avoid nor can you use rope arrows. The forced trigger is positional; once within the hallway the splatballs fire. Just wait until the AIs go off alert to ghost your way out.
- On the route to the Tomb of Salimar, you get up to a balcony surrounding the room with the 3 standing and 2 patrolling guards with a statue in a red pool in the middle of the room. In front of another statue up on the balcony, you must step on a floorplate that falls to let you continue. Below that is another floorplate that you cannot avoid landing on; you cannot run into the opening to land off of the bottom floorplate. You can crouch to land softly so as to not alert the zombies in the next room, but the bottom floorplate will start a wall to slide over to close off the hallway to the next room, and this also triggers the zombies in the next room to go on full alert. Whether you make it to the next room or not, the trigger puts the zombies on full alert. If you don't scoot into the next room, you'll get forever trapped in the first room. There's no wood anywhere to use a rope arrow to get back out, the bottom floorplate only works once, and there's no way to open the now sealed off hallway. These zombies are blessed in that they can walk through the stone wall that seals off the hallway; they may come visiting while you're permanently trapped in the first room.
- After getting the Talisman of Salimar, the next chamber is for the Mabus family in which a lone servant paces back and forth. There are 2 stories of crypts along each of 3 walls; the 4th wall is where you entered through a banner and has the passage that leads back to the lava pool near the entrance to Ramesis' tomb. I got the tiara and necklace from a 2nd story crypt, came down okay, and was crouched and fully hidden behind a crypt next to the ladder to go up and into the next room. But this servant has the unusually ability to see right through the stone crypt that I was hiding behind. I could get next to this crypt while on the floor without being detected (although just as lit as when I was farther away hiding behind the crypt), and when the servant turned around I'd mantle up and jump up the ladder before he turned around. But all that sneaking was in vain, anyway. On entering the hallway to the next room (that has a wood beam across it in which a trap section falls out), splatballs start firing off again. They are generated out of thin air at the other end of the wood beam, and again is real fakey; no floor plate and nothing Garret touches is the trigger, just his position within the hallway. The collision of these splatballs sets off the servant I just ghosted in the last room along with the zombies down in the next pit room.
- After the wood beam is Saldic's tomb where 2 guards face each other watching over the only path while another guard paces along the path. There are no light sources in this area yet the path is fully lit so there's no way to ghost past either of these guards. Had to tap both guards since both would spot me trying to sneak down the path, thus the knockout=2 statistic.
- That left just the roving guard that walks along the path and bridge to the talisman. He can be ghosted going in or out but getting the talisman will force him on alert. Oh, joy. Even with the roving guard the farthest away possible (60 paces) from the torch that I'm forced to light up, he goes on full alert when you are required to use a fire arrow. Don't know if it's the light of the torch he spots (although he doesn't spot me standing in front of it) or the noise. The fire arrow must be used; Garret doesn't know how to use a lighter or flint. The inside wall by the talisman cannot be mantled even if you tote in and stack the 2 boulders (used to enter Ramesis' tomb). The top of the wall is at brow height (and lower when you jump) but Garret still cannot jump on or mantle the wall although he'll grunt like he's trying to mantle. The author provides almost nothing for stacking so I couldn't get higher than the wall's edge to simply walk or jump over onto it. I waited for the guard to go off alert and ghosted back out.
- While you can ghost into Ramesis' tomb, even down to where are the guards (by crouching and sliding off a far corner), you can't ghost back out. The rope arrow you need to use hangs right in the middle of the well lit room (although there are no light sources anywhere) and smack in the middle of the gauntlet of guards. If not ghosting, each guard can be tapped but be sure to pick it up immediately to prevent a nearby guard from seeing the body. When ghosting, the guards will end up dead, anyway. To get to the talisman, you cannot sneak between the guards facing each other because the middle of the room is well lit. But if you sneak behind them and when you get into either corner by the alcove with the talisman, a barrage of broadheads continually fire along the line of leftside guards. The guards hover in that area and eventually get perforated enough times to kill them all off. The arrows originate out of thin air; I can stand between the wall and the first pillar (nearest the talisman) along the firing line and never get damaged while watching the arrows appear in front of me.
- After returning to the lava pool to exit the tombs, there are 2 archer guards on each side of where the force field used to be. Perhaps you can snudge one of the guards out of the way enough to let you ghost your way out. Instead I reused the 2 boulders to stack them up to jump back up to the ladder that I used to get in.

Again, there are lots of fakey positionally triggered actions that will cause AIs to go on alert and which cannot be avoided because Garret has no alternate route. It's nothing that Garret touches, it's just his location. If these events are discounted (along with the AIs that they alert) then the mission can be ghosted; otherwise, ghosting is impossible because the author designed it that way.

[This message has been edited by Vanguard (edited 12-14-2001).]

Posts: 1223
From: London, Ontario, Canada
Registered: AUG 2000

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 11-08-2001 09:50 PM             

Play mode: Ghost (aborted)
Time: 0
Loot: 0

Comments:
- Yet another FM in which the author chose to make darkened areas totally black. Douse a torch in a room and you're blind. Yet the AIs will spot you. Run around in a totally black room and your light gem flashes into the yellow light range. Yeah, right. The author forgot that there is no sense of touch and must compensate by upping the ambient light level. Might as well as turn off the monitor to play this FM.
- Won't bother with this FM. Too many other good ones, and even crappy ones, that are better than this one. I don't play in Blind Thief mode.

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 11-08-2001 10:17 PM             

Play mode: Ghost (failed, and is impossible)
Time: 9 min
Loot: 100 of 100
Backstabs: 1
Damage dealt: 68 Taken: 0 Healing: 0
Killed: 3 Innocents: some (1)

Comments:
- No way to ghost past any of the guards. You start in a highly lit room (no light sources, however), come down an ridiculously highly inclined ramp which obviates trying to creep down it, and a guard that watches the ramp that never rotates and stands in one place. You have to kill him (and servant) to prevent alerting others. There's no blackjack in this mission, another reason to delete this design trainer mission.
- Where there are torches, dousing them is useless as the light level is still very high and you'll get spotted. Don't know why the author bothered adding torches if they're completely irrelevant to the lighting - which, by the way, is real fakey in that there are no other sources for all the light in this mission.
- I've played short missions. This one had no fun in it, and there's nothing deceptive about a sceptre lying on a table in a room that doesn't even require picking its lock. Won't waste time on this FM again. Deleted it.

[This message has been edited by Vanguard (edited 11-08-2001).]

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 11-09-2001 08:48 PM             

Play mode: Ghost (aborted)
Time: 0
Loot: 0

Comment:
- Yet another FM where you get to play in Blind Thief mode. Douse a torch, like the first room right at the start of this FM where inside there is a spider, and you're completely blind; the room becomes totally black. Another author who forgets that this is a *video* game and that Garret has no sense of touch so the ambient light level must be raised to compensate. I don't play video games and then turn off my monitor to play them.

Too many more FMs out there to play. I don't waste time on Blind Thief mode FMs.

Posts: 1816
From: Minnesota USA
Registered: DEC 1999

posted 11-13-2001 05:39 PM             

Play mode: Ghost (failed)
Time: 2 hr 2 min
Loot: 1870 of 2035 (1800 required)
Backstabs: 3 (wrong count, should be 1)
Knockouts: 2 (wrong count, should be 1)
Killed: 1

Cause(s) of failure:
- On one route of the caverns, there's a frogbeast on the small ledge you have to jump on to take the ladder to go out. On the only other route, jumping onto a ledge alerts a spider spinning in the tunnel right by that ledge.
- Opening the "sword blender" room's door will set off the guard standing near it. This is a hardwired trigger: any AI within a specific section of the hallway with the door will alert even when looking the other way.

Comments:
- The "others killed" (1) was a required objective (Lord Thayer). I knocked him out and then whacked him with the sword, so the backstab count should've been 1. I re-checked the mansion and all other AIs were still alive.
- From the start, going to the right requires you pass a frogbeast (which is ghostable) and a cavern with 2 big green spiders and a red spider (also ghostable). However, I could not manage to jump up the ledge steps in the spider cavern without making noise, and the ledge step on which I made noise when jumped on also had another tunnel with a big green spider that would go on alert because of the noise. Going to the left from the start takes you to a cavern with a waterfall and a frogbeast; you can't get to the ladder above the ledge that the frogbeast is on without alerting it (you have to jump onto the same small ledge on which is the frogbeast). Since either way causes one AI to go on alert, my ghost job got busted. That was the only 2nd level alert I got.
- The only AI knocked out was the guard standing by the "sword blender" room with the key to the magical chalice. The mission is defined with a phoney trigger: Any guard within the stretch of the hallway between the arches will get alerted. Even if their back is turned, they go on 2nd alert when the door is opened and if they are between the arches. For the roving guards, you can simply wait until they pass an arch after which opening the door won't alert them although they turn around and should be able to spot the open door. However, one guard remains stationary in this stretch of the hallway so opening the door automatically puts him on alert. He usually run over to set off the alarm but once he ran over and back but didn't set off the alarm (but he also remains on high alert thereafter). Since this guard is "hardwired" to alert (due to his position in the "hot" zone), his alert when the door is opened is discounted from busting your ghost job (as long as he also doesn't spot you).
- The "sword blender" room is the one with the above mentioned door where a pedestal with the "different silver key" is needed but is surrounded by spinning swords hovering all around the pedestal. I used crates to form a bridge over the swords to get the key. Wish I had found the rope arrow in the same closet where I grabbed the crates; would've only taken one trip to get the rope arrow and use it to climb above the swords and jump onto the pedestal.
- Took awhile to figure out how to get to the chalice. When I approached it, it flew to the opposite side of the room across the deep pit. Rope arrow is useless here. No way to get to it - unless you read the books/scrolls that mention its windy property (reminiscent of the leap of faith for Indiana Jones to get at the chalice). I think I spent over 20 minutes trying to figure that one out.

Hmm, come to think of it, maybe the knockouts=2 is accurate. Besides the triggered guard by the door, I did knockout Lord Thayer before killing him with the sword. I noticed that just raising the blackjack, although I was dark, triggered Lord Thayer into 2nd alert and he'd run over to the alarm switch. Tapping him after he had alerted only resulted in a "oooh" sound from him but he wouldn't go down. I could've whacked him with the sword but figured he'd make more noise and the guards outside in the hallway might notice. So I tapped him using the airborne trick: jump at him and during the jump raise and release the blackjack so it hits him before your feet hit the ground. Then I dragged his body to the other end of the room to ensure that he'd make the least amount of noise out in the hallway, then I whacked him with the sword.

[This message has been edited by Vanguard (edited 12-14-2001).]

Posts: 1223
From: London, Ontario, Canada
Registered: AUG 2000

posted 11-13-2001 06:25 PM         

Ghost: Success
Time: 2:22
Loot: 1,528 of 1,993
Pockets: 5 of 11
Locks: 7
Consumables: none
Version: 1.01 (patched)

Since Acts I, III, and IV are pretty simple and straightforward, I've posted my statistics for Act II, the substance of the mission.

Depending on the Ghosting rulings regarding awakening AI, this mission may not be Perfect Thiefable. I left the footlocker with loot in the guards' quarters and the footlocker with loot in the servants' quarters untouched since unlocking these awakens the nearby AI. It can be argued that they awaken in either alert level 0 or 1 which might not be a Ghost bust.

Since this is a brand new fan mission, I'll leave the Ghosting details for others to find for themselves. Nothing special required -- all straight Ghosting.

Excellent work, Saturnine!

Encore!

[This message has been edited by Old Man (edited 11-13-2001).]