Why is the Joker so popular?

[E.Nygma]

....The more I got to know Gotham's rogue gallery, the more I wondered that. I don't understand how comes the Joker has so many fans. Granted, he is an interesting character, but.... why is the favorite of so many?

The point is, I just don't understand him. Usually the Gotham villains always have something you can relate to; I'd say that to me some of the best Batman stories are those which allow you to put yourself in the antagonist's point of view. Proof enough is that quite a few Batman stories even have the antagonist as the protagonist; with Batman being only mentioned or only making a brief deus ex machina apparition on the scene.
Really, who hasn't once, maybe during an idle chatter with friends, made a comment about how we humans are destroying the planet and the world may be better off without us (Ra's al Gul, Poison Ivy)? And don't we all agree that intelligence is the proved two-sided weapon of choice of the human race, which both invented penicillin and the atomic bomb (Riddler)? Don't we all struggle between good and evil (Two-Face)?

Sometimes we can feel a certain pity for the villains, as we see them as pretty miserable wretches - just think about Arnold Wesker or Victor Fries for example. This never diminishes the fact that they're all pretty scary to us. But there is the counterpart: they scare us and we disapprove of their evil deeds, but at the same time, all of them have an human side.

Not the Joker. The Joker is completely inhuman. He never feels guilt, he never wonders about his deeds, he never really has any human emotion besides gratuituous cruelty. Sure, sometimes there have been attempts to give him a soul, such as in the Killing Joke, but let's face it: at its core, the Joker character is only a mean concentrate of pure evilness.
And this makes him a rather interesting villain, of course. But why the most interesting? What do so many people find in the Joker? I see that character, and I see emptiness: his total lack of any human feelings makes him.... too superficial to hold my interest.

So, after all this blahblahblah, here is the core of the post: why is the Joker so popular?

[Scarn]

Because he is the goddamed Joker!!! I just wanted to say that.

Everything u described about Joker is the reason he is popular. Not careing for anyones life other than his doesn't plan but just does things without consideration and he is also the complete opposite of Batman with out Joker Batman has no complete purpose. They need each other.

[DarkKnightReturns]

I agree it does make Joker kind of superficial and uninteresting to think that he's the stereotypical villain with no depth that has an impossible amount of cruelty with no cause, but I have to say the contributing factors to him being so popular are:

- Heath Ledger, no matter how much anyone hates it or wants to deny it. He brought new aspects to the character (glasgow smile scars, lacking fear of death and pain, anarchistic world view)

- His unpredictability. One minute he's a hilarious, harmless prankster, the next an inhumanly brutal savage. There's no telling what he'll do if you accept (or deny) his offer to pull his finger or tell a knock-knock joke.

- The fact that's he's probably one of the most demented, sick villains in fiction history (forcing a bank owner to masturbate to his own very young daughter's picture in Azzarello's Joker, crippling and defiling Barbara Gordon in The Killing Joke, beating Jason Todd within an inch of his life with a crowbar and then blowing him and his mother up in Death In The Family, tossing babies out a nursery window in No Man's Land, killing babies while having sex with Harley in Ashes to Ashes) "When supervillains want to scare each other, they tell Joker stories"

- Mark Hamill's awesome voice and performance

- The ironic feel that despite looking as a clown, a being that is often interpreted as silly, harmless, childish, despite some people having a fear of clowns, he's perhaps the worst mass murderer in America

- Batman is the world's greatest detective and even he can barely predict what the Joker is going to do next. That's true chaos

Probably a ton of other reasons, but I can't remember them all right now.

BTW to original poster of the topic, I think you've made some very good points, I like how you relate Gotham's villains to us, I think it's very, very true

[LIGHTS]

Joker is Batman's #1 arch-nemesis. He's recurring in almost all the Batman cartoons and Batman comics. He's portrayed more often, which makes many people think he's awesome and all. That's he he's popular. He's known. If you ask someone, even someone unfamiliar with Batman they'll talk about Joker. Some people that aren't deeply into Batman know the Joker mainly from TDK movie. And because of Heath, Joker was popular world-wide as well. Also, his laugh was another thing. No matter who voice acted for Joker, the laugh is always something that makes Joker, Joker. & Not to mention his famous quotes, lines, etc.

-Why so serious?
-Let's put a smile on that face.
-You remind me of my father... I HATED my father.
-Ha! You kill me... Ha! I LOVE this guy!
-Have a face full of PIE; My treat.
-It's getting late; I gotta get home... Can't wait to see whose it's gonna be!
-Kaboom! Hahaha, just kidding.
-Batman, you will soon make a great Joker... Just don't forget to SMILE.

[Matches Malone]

I agree it does make Joker kind of superficial and uninteresting to think that he's the stereotypical villain with no depth that has an impossible amount of cruelty with no cause, but I have to say the contributing factors to him being so popular are:


I don't think he is stereotypical at all, I consider the other villains the stereotype. Everyone always tries to make you feel sorry for a villain. So few villains are written to be inexcusably ruthless. The worst thing you can do to a villain is make you feel sorry for him or give him empathy then he just becomes a misunderstood good guy. This is why The Killing Joke is not my favorite Joker story, the more you know about a character the less you fear and respect him. The reason everyone always craves more Joker is bc he is so disconnected, so uncontrollable, and so unattainable. If he was more sterotypical (sympathetic, relatable, having a "depthy" back story) he might not even be around anymore.

Everyone is always trying to make bad good guys and good bad guys and I'm tired of it!!!

[LIGHTS]

Everyone is always trying to make bad good guys and good bad guys and I'm tired of it!!!

Let's put a smile on that face.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/neil.davies12/Jokernew.jpg

:D

[E.Nygma]

To DarkKnightReturns: that was a good explanation about the interesting sides you can find in the Joker!

However, I must say that when I consider this post here:

Joker is Batman's #1 arch-nemesis. He's recurring in almost all the Batman cartoons and Batman comics. He's portrayed more often, which makes many people think he's awesome and all. That's he he's popular. He's known. If you ask someone, even someone unfamiliar with Batman they'll talk about Joker. Some people that aren't deeply into Batman know the Joker mainly from TDK movie. And because of Heath, Joker was popular world-wide as well. Also, his laugh was another thing. No matter who voice acted for Joker, the laugh is always something that makes Joker, Joker. & Not to mention his famous quotes, lines, etc.



I come to wonder if the real reason of Joker's popularity is pretty much only because they always portray him everywhere.




I don't think he is stereotypical at all, I consider the other villains the stereotype.


By the definition of "stereotype", I doubt any of the Gotham villains could fit apart from the Joker. And Joker's stereotype is precisely the fact that he is a mere villain. And nothing more. Just evil. ONLY evil.




Everyone always tries to make you feel sorry for a villain. So few villains are written to be inexcusably ruthless. The worst thing you can do to a villain is make you feel sorry for him or give him empathy then he just becomes a misunderstood good guy.


You know what the problem is? You seem to think that if one feels sorry for the villain, then that villain isn't a villain anymore. This is very superficial, and it works only in children tales.
Actually, the point is that you do feel sorry for the villain, but at the same time, he or she IS a villain, an evil, psychotic if you will, bastard. And that's the interesting part. The fact that poor Arnold Wesker suffers from his insanity does not change the fact that he is a cruel mob boss who ruthlessly kills people. The fact that we can feel compassion for the Penguin's self-esteem issues and we can feel tenderness at his love for birds, does NOT change the horrible deeds he does, and he doesn't even have the excuse of madness since he is perfectly in-control. And even if Ivy loves her plants so much, isn't she still terribly scary because of her complete lack of any empathy towards human beings?

I think that is the mature approach. Evilness is always derived from sufference. No one who is living an happy and content life would ever turn to evil! The other Gotham rogues remind us of that. We aren't able to forgive them for what they do; yet we somehow understand them. This remembers us, and warns us, that evil is very much.... human.

And that is why the Joker seems so superficial to me. And the fact that I can't relate to him in any way makes him feel so soulless and dehumanized to me, that he gets.... well, boring. I'm sorry, but gorey tricks and homicides aren't enough to keep my interest if the character performing them is just a random killing machine instead of a living being with emotions.

[Prince Daka]

-Scary clowns are popular. Examples: SweetTooth (Twisted Metal), Stephen King's IT, Killer Klowns from Outer Space

-Heath Ledger, Jack Nicholson, Mark Hamill, & Cesar Romero (to a lesser extent) popularized the Joker.

-He is Batman's most recurring foe. You can argue that he is overexposed, or just the essential arch nemesis of the Batman.

-He is the most chaotic, living life unpredictable, violently, always trying to corrupt his surroundings and hurt others to fulfill his dystopic vision which as stories like Killing Joke have suggested is the result of a past traumatic experience that irreversibly transformed him. Some people can relate to this & love the character. Many people go through painful experiences, snap, and become bad people who get off on hurting others. When they hurt people they think it is funny, because although he/she can't laugh at what they've gone through, they can easily laugh at the misfortunes of others (= chaos mentality). Batman can see through this, and thus refuses to give in and kill Joker or anyone else. Batman dealt with his trauma a much better way & doesn't believe one bad day will turn him evil, & he doesn't misdirect his hostility. Joker's facile philosophy is actually his weakness, as seen at the end of "The Dark Knight" when he puts on a sad face when he realizes his social experiment has failed.

[LIGHTS]

I come to wonder if the real reason of Joker's popularity is pretty much only because they always portray him everywhere.

Joker is a well known Batman character, even to non-Batman fanatics because of TDK. Regular Batman fans do know Joker well, and therefore popularating him, because he was portrayed a lot in everything related to Batman. I wouldn't say mainly because of that, but many people know Joker and not someone like the Creeper, or the Great White Shark if they're not comic readers.

[Matches Malone]

And that is why the Joker seems so superficial to me. And the fact that I can't relate to him in any way makes him feel so soulless and dehumanized to me, that he gets.... well, boring. I'm sorry, but gorey tricks and homicides aren't enough to keep my interest if the character performing them is just a random killing machine instead of a living being with emotions.

We obviously just disagree with what makes a good villain. Everything you just described about him is so awesome to me! I think you need to look at the Joker beyond what you see on the surface. He is obviously a severe sociopath (look it up if you don't know what it means) who sees through all the mundane patterns, routines, and things that we think are important and value in our lives, he completely lacks empathy and emotion, when you have no emotions its very hard to find value in things so everything is a big joke including life itself. It drives him crazy that no one else can see the world the way he sees it, everyone is so set on being so serious all the time, so he makes it his mission to show everyone what a big joke their lives are. What makes him even more awesome is that this is the polar opposite of Batman. Really he is the deepest character of them all IMO you just have to get to know him :)

Making a villain who you feel sorry for has just become so terribly cliche'. The Joker is the Alpha and the Omega

If you gave him a back story, made him sympathetic and flushed him out into the open he would be like EVERY OTHER VILLAIN and become THE REAL STEREOTYPE. And would also destroy everything that EVERYONE ELSE finds so fascinating.

[Matches Malone]

I come to wonder if the real reason of Joker's popularity is pretty much only because they always portray him everywhere.


You think of things backwards. He is everywhere bc he is so popular.

[DarkKnightReturns]

I respectfully disagree with Matches Malone. Making a villain sympathetic can only enhance them. No one is born bad. Tragic villains are the exact opposite of cliche stereotypes - in fact, the soulless, mindless killing machine is the more cliche stereotype instead, because it makes them easier to hate, and that in general is what mindless action entertainment is all about, is being able to point your finger at the bad guy and not feel the least bit guilty when he gets his comeuppance in the ending. Name one sympathetic villain you have ever seen from Die Hard, or Lethal Weapon, or Rambo, or just about any generic action genre you have seen.

Adding tragedy to a villain adds depth to them. No one is inherently bad, there is always something to spark their bad deeds. BTAS did a wonderful job at creating several tragic villains out of Mr. Freeze, Two-Face, Harley Quinn, Baby-Doll, and several others. When you find yourself sympathizing with the villain you get conflicted and it makes the story all the more interesting. It would be very boring if you cared only about the interests of only one or very few characters.

One could say Joker is overexposed or overrated, but I think in a strange way he's earned his place as Batman's main villain. Part of what makes him seem so ruthless is the mystery behind him. No one knows his true origin or his past life. It could be the most tragic thing or the most trivial thing, but that's the beauty of it; we'll NEVER find out, and it only makes him more interesting.

[Drazar]

....The more I got to know Gotham's rogue gallery, the more I wondered that. I don't understand how comes the Joker has so many fans. Granted, he is an interesting character, but.... why is the favorite of so many?

He and Catwoman pretty much became instant iconic characters since Batman #1. Joker has received alot of attention and ever since #1 there has been conflict between Batman and the Joker. It just became the writer's thing that Joker is Batman's yang and the fans loved him so fanbase + good story telling = good character.

Not the Joker. The Joker is completely inhuman. He never feels guilt, he never wonders about his deeds, he never really has any human emotion besides gratuituous cruelty. Sure, sometimes there have been attempts to give him a soul, such as in the Killing Joke, but let's face it: at its core, the Joker character is only a mean concentrate of pure evilness.

How did TKJ attempt to give him a soul? The story narrated by Joker is completely false and even Joker laughs on it. He confuses and changes his own past to the limit he probably has forgotten it. Concerning Joker's motivation for what he does is basicly attention. You can have him as a big mafia bully who wants it all. You can have him wanting to be the clown at Midnight who kills the Batman and then you can have him as the harmless prankster who wants a laughing contest with Robin. There all motivated by his own needs to do what he does best.

And this makes him a rather interesting villain, of course. But why the most interesting? What do so many people find in the Joker? I see that character, and I see emptiness: his total lack of any human feelings makes him.... too superficial to hold my interest.

Depends really. I'm liking the possible idea that Joker is now a private detective and killing off all the Black Glove members from Batman R.I.P because his Batman is "dead" now. :p He's motivated by the things he wishes to do and there all pretty wild cards out there.

I come to wonder if the real reason of Joker's popularity is pretty much only because they always portray him everywhere.


As someone else said. It's the otherway around.

You know what the problem is? You seem to think that if one feels sorry for the villain, then that villain isn't a villain anymore. This is very superficial, and it works only in children tales.

Harley Quinn is on the top loser villains of Batman yet she's loved because she's joking, charming and always there trying to find her place in the world whenever it's with Joker or her friends. She's like probably the most loved fictional loser villain there is. :p

And that is why the Joker seems so superficial to me. And the fact that I can't relate to him in any way makes him feel so soulless and dehumanized to me, that he gets.... well, boring. I'm sorry, but gorey tricks and homicides aren't enough to keep my interest if the character performing them is just a random killing machine instead of a living being with emotions.

But isn't Joker in a way just pure emotion? He laughs, he cries, he gets angry for no reason or a good reason! He's a total wackjob. The feel to fill his greed to do his things to Gotham and rule it and play it like a big bad mafia man.

[Matches Malone]

See I think truly evil people are born bad and vice verse for good people. Bruce Wayne could have easily been turned to villain and sought revenge but instead his character traits led him to pursue a life of helping others as where Joker obviously used his negative life to destroy other lives. Maybe its bc I'm a soulless atheist who doesn't believe in devine intervention, but I think good people will always be good people and bad people will always be bad people despite circumstance. Circumstance, i believe, defines what type of person we really are, religion can make bad people behave but inside they are still bad people.

There can be no good without evil.

My intoxication may have caused me to go off on a bit of tangent there :)

[Sir Legendhead]

Because deep down inside all of us, there's something that just wants to see the world burn.

[DarkKnightReturns]

See I think truly evil people are born bad and vice verse for good people.

I'm really sorry to step on your toes, but I just can't see how that works.

Would Bruce Wayne have grown up to not be spoiled, irresponsible, flirtatious, pampered, inexperienced, instead of humble, brooding, and obsessed if his parents weren't killed?

Would Harvey Dent, who had the purest intentions and was incorruptible, have turned to crime if his father did not abuse him as a child and his face was not scarred with acid?

Would Victor Fries, a prominent doctor who was working for the good of mankind, have turned to crime if he was able to save his wife and was not forever imprisoned in ice?

Would Harley Quinn, a psychologist for the criminally insane who wanted to help people, have turned to crime if she wasn't starved for affection and felt uninspired until Joker manipulated her and turned her insane?

Would Pamela Isley, a botanist, have turned to crime if her professor had not attempted to kill her?

People are never simply born bad, things happen to them that make them do things that they normally wouldn't do.

[Old_BenKenobi]

Because he's Batman's arch-nemesis and is a really enjoyable character to read and watch?

[Matches Malone]

I'm really sorry to step on your toes, but I just can't see how that works.

Would Bruce Wayne have grown up to not be spoiled, irresponsible, flirtatious, pampered, inexperienced, instead of humble, brooding, and obsessed if his parents weren't killed?

Would Harvey Dent, who had the purest intentions and was incorruptible, have turned to crime if his father did not abuse him as a child and his face was not scarred with acid?

Would Victor Fries, a prominent doctor who was working for the good of mankind, have turned to crime if he was able to save his wife and was not forever imprisoned in ice?

Would Harley Quinn, a psychologist for the criminally insane who wanted to help people, have turned to crime if she wasn't starved for affection and felt uninspired until Joker manipulated her and turned her insane?

Would Pamela Isley, a botanist, have turned to crime if her professor had not attempted to kill her?

People are never simply born bad, things happen to them that make them do things that they normally wouldn't do.

No I don't think Bruce would have grown up to be spoiled. Just like I think if you take all the situations of the villains you just mentioned and put Bruce in those situations, would you get the same result? I don't think so. Say you take the Joker before he was "the Joker" and put him in Bruce's life, his parents get killed just like Bruce's he would still turn to villainy would he not? I'm just saying Bruce had a bad a day as anyone and he didn't turn to villain bc deep down he is not a good person (hush reference) but deep, deep down he is a good person :) Everyone has bad things happen to them its what we do with our circumstances that make us good or evil. If everyone turned evil every time something traumatic happened to them there wouldn't be a good person left on the earth. The idea that you can justify a persons inappropriate/evil/bad behavior bc you had a rough childhood, or something like that, is weak and immature, again IMO.

Circumstance doesn't make the man a man makes the circumstance.

[k1ll1ng j0k3]

This is a very interesting topic but I believe that we have to define what is good and what is evil. Sometimes evil is just our primitive instinct looking to ensure not only our survival but also our comfort and pleasure. Sometimes good is just our display of the behavior that society has inculcated on us. The Joker is beyond this concepts and that is what makes him such and iconic and interesting character. He is beyond good and evil. He is not controlled by law, society or even sanity. For The Joker insanity is the ultimate freedom and in a way that is what everyone looks for, for the ultimate freedom. Superficially it seems that no one can really relate to The Joker’s inhumanity, but deep down we can all relate to it. We can relate to that search for complete freedom from the control of others (society, the law) and freedom from ourselves (our self-control and even sanity). A freedom that would allow us to do just whatever we want.

[E.Nygma]

DarkKnightReturns and Matches Malone, thing is, I think you both are right.

On one hand, people aren't just born evil, and so there needs to be a lot of sufference to turn someone into a killer, or a criminal, or a psychopath. In this, it's obvious that if Bruce Wayne didn't had to go through that tragedy as a kid, he would never have become Batman.

On the other hand, it's the nature of the person who reacts to a tragedy that makes the difference. Not everyone who goes through the same ordeal necessarily ends up a criminal or such. In this, if Bruce Wayne didn't suffer the loss of his parents, he would never have become Batman but he would still have become a philanthrope, and a good man.

So I think both sides have their equal importance in how a person becomes. Circumstance makes the man and man makes the circumstance.


....And now, to return in-topic. So it seems to me that people who like Joker so much basically think "Oh look, he randomly does anything he wants whenever he wants and never cares about anybody, how cool!".
Seems rather.... immature? It's like a young kid's fantasy of egocentrism. Not to mention that some fans find the Joker so cool, and totally disregard the horrible deeds he's done (or do they find those cool, too?).

Joker works fine as a villain, don't get me wrong. But he's the villain of an action movie, like someone mentioned, or of an action videogame. You can't make psychological stories about the Joker. You can't get into the thoughts of the character, because he doesn't have them - he is merely the guy who does evil things.
Now, this would actually be fine, too, if only the rogue gallery of Gotham didn't abund with such compelling and more detailed villains.

[k1ll1ng j0k3]

And now, to return in-topic. So it seems to me that people who like Joker so much basically think "Oh look, he randomly does anything he wants whenever he wants and never cares about anybody, how cool!".
Seems rather.... immature? It's like a young kid's fantasy of egocentrism. Not to mention that some fans find the Joker so cool, and totally disregard the horrible deeds he's done (or do they find those cool, too?).

Joker works fine as a villain, don't get me wrong. But he's the villain of an action movie, like someone mentioned, or of an action videogame. You can't make psychological stories about the Joker. You can't get into the thoughts of the character, because he doesn't have them - he is merely the guy who does evil things.
Now, this would actually be fine, too, if only the rogue gallery of Gotham didn't abund with such compelling and more detailed villains. I am sorry but I have to disagree. Every comic book villain commits hideous crimes. From The Riddler to The Joker. The acts they commit may or may not be relevant to their own psychological issues, so of course the fans are going to find some of these crimes “cool” because they reflect the psychological issues that their characters have. The Riddler wouldn’t have been a famous villain if his riddles weren’t deadly. The same applies to The Joker. He wouldn’t be a villain if he didn’t commit the hideous crimes that he commits. Now the reasons for his crimes can be very complex but not always random. Sometimes, he does what he does to make Batman realize that he has to let go of his self-control and moral code and just become like him. That explains why he taunts batman to kill him. The Joker has a variety of stories that reflect the deepness of the character reflecting him not only as pure evil but something more. For example in Emperor Joker he wants to destroy the whole universe so people like him wouldn’t exist. It is hard to explain what goes in the mind of The Joker and that complexity is what is so attractive.

[Matches Malone]

k1ll1ng j0k3, couldn't have said it better if I sat down all day to think about it. Well said

E.Nygma yes I don't completely disagree with you as I do not believe in absolutes. I am aware that in different cases we are both correct. Analyzing the psychological aspects of the Batman Mythos is probably my most favorite thing in the world :) so I ramble. Thanks for the spar!

[k1ll1ng j0k3]

k1ll1ng j0k3, couldn't have said it better if I sat down all day to think about it. Well said

E.Nygma yes I don't completely disagree with you as I do not believe in absolutes. I am aware that in different cases we are both correct. Analyzing the psychological aspects of the Batman Mythos is probably my most favorite thing in the world :) so I ramble. Thanks for the spar!
Thank you! same here. This is a very interesting topic and I am glad to be part of it. E.Nygma brought up very valid points but I believe that they apply mostly to people that saw The Dark Knight and became instant fans of The Joker without really understanding the different aspects of the character. Anyway I am having a blast so thank you.

[Drazar]

Regarding all the Bruce talk, heres my 2 cents:

Morrison touched on a world withouth Batman. It had Thomas Wayne beat up Joe Chill and everyone was happy, so Bruce grows up as a mama's little loser boy whos Gotham's laughing stock. Noone takes him seriously not even at his work. (He became a doctor like his father) Ultimately Joker rises in Gotham and kills James Gordon, Dick Grayson and the other Flying Graysons... So yeah a world withouth Batman sucks! :p

Then theres another story! In this story the villain changes reality by making Batman into a anti-hero cowboy fan instead of a Zorro fan. When the Wayne Family died Bruce became a cowboy inspired villain killer named Paladin.


.And now, to return in-topic. So it seems to me that people who like Joker so much basically think "Oh look, he randomly does anything he wants whenever he wants and never cares about anybody, how cool!".
Seems rather.... immature? It's like a young kid's fantasy of egocentrism. Not to mention that some fans find the Joker so cool, and totally disregard the horrible deeds he's done (or do they find those cool, too?).

He has the touch! He has the power! He can do anything he wants because theres really noone to stop him. Sure Batman comes and stops him but sooner or later he escapes Arkham because writers will never write Batman to improson Joker to a Green Lantern prison for example.

So really just think of this: If everyone in the world we're given super powers. How many of you think would go wild and abuse these powers? It's the same here with Joker except he's just a brilliant mastermind who knows his mobster ways in Gotham.

Joker works fine as a villain, don't get me wrong. But he's the villain of an action movie, like someone mentioned, or of an action videogame. You can't make psychological stories about the Joker. You can't get into the thoughts of the character, because he doesn't have them - he is merely the guy who does evil things.

Yes you can make psychological stories out of him because of how crazy he is. "Joker" shows a wide range of everything Joker is and the Killing Joke is just showing how truly nuts he actually is while also touching upon Bruce's own insanity aswell.

[E.Nygma]

I am sorry but I have to disagree. Every comic book villain commits hideous crimes. From The Riddler to The Joker. The acts they commit may or may not be relevant to their own psychological issues, so of course the fans are going to find some of these crimes “cool” because they reflect the psychological issues that their characters have.


No, no, comparing the Riddler to the Joker, or any other Gotham villain with the Joker, is nonsense. NO ONE of the Gotham rogues does cruel things merely for the fun of it. And no one of them is ever capable of reaching the levels of gratuituous nastiness that the Joker achieve. Each of the Gotham rogues commit evil for a motivation. Wether it's just looking for attention, like the Riddler, or protecting the plants, like Poison Ivy, or even becoming a rich and powerful mob boss, like Scarface.... all of them have a motivation that leads them to commit certain evil deeds. But the Joker is very different. More often than not he has no real motivation to do what he does. Would Scarface, Ivy, Riddler, Two-Face, Penguin, and so on, stop in their way to hideously torture a random person which just happened to cross the street? No. Only the Joker would.



The Riddler wouldn’t have been a famous villain if his riddles weren’t deadly. The same applies to The Joker.


"Others are mad enough to kill. But not I."

"The Joker's KILLING people, for god's sake!!"

"Too many are vying for the medias attention these days. Most of them are homicidal maniacs. What competition can a mere criminal genius offer?"

All actual quotes from the Riddler.
.....I'm sorry, I know the Riddler better than you. :P

[DarkKnightReturns]

MatchesMalone, circumstance still has a lot more to do with things than the core of a person. Harvey Dent is inherently a good person, he's made several attempts to retire from his life of crime, but circumstance keeps getting in the way, as well as the scars (no pun intended) that came with them. He's just suffering the consequences of deciding to be the district attorney for the city with the worst crime rate in America, a job that came with many risks and he ultimately paid the price for it. But one could say that he was nonetheless noble to his core.

Can you tell me someone who has been abused during their childhood and is at least not disturbed somehow? It has a lasting impact on someone's entire life. Yes not everyone who is abused turns into a criminal, but they are still unhealthy. I'm actually a child abuse survivor myself and while most people I know consider me to be a very good person, I have a hatred for my father most people would call irrational and say that it's impossible for me to move on. I can't forgive him, and I don't ever want to.

All those Gotham criminals I named and several others were never doing anything wrong or acting bad BEFORE the catalyst that turned them into villains. You seem to paint it like turning to crime because of something bad happening is trivial. It's not like these people merely had their car stolen or they lost some money. Their lives were torn apart. When things like that happen it's very easy to become disillusioned with the life you felt you once lived. People you were close to sometimes don't seem the same, the rules you lived by seem like they're inflexible and impossible to live under, and in your new sense of agony one sometimes feels so compelled to seek compensation for what happened to them that they are willing to break the law and put people's safety at stake, because hey, to them, the world has f***ed them over.

It's not just something you can put a bandage on, say "man up", and keep on walking. It lasts for life.

[k1ll1ng j0k3]

Yes you can make psychological stories out of him because of how crazy he is. "Joker" shows a wide range of everything Joker is and the Killing Joke is just showing how truly nuts he actually is while also touching upon Bruce's own insanity aswell.
Bruce “sanity” is another interesting point. The ending of The Killing Joke was so amazing because it touches that point. It reflects that Batman and The Joker are just different sides of the same coin. They are both insane but they have chosen to do different things with that insanity. The Joker decided to kill and torture and “have fun” while Batman decided to use it to help and protect others. In a way the complexity deepness of The Joker as a character applies to Batman as well.

[Drazar]

Well the Mainstream Batman solved his "sanity" issues. Grant Morrison took the Moore/Miller grimdark brooding Batman stuff and made Batman go to this ritual (and he took a vacation!) where he performed the Thogal ritual and his "demons" we're removed from his soul.

So now Bruce is just highly driven, not nut balls.

[k1ll1ng j0k3]

No, no, comparing the Riddler to the Joker, or any other Gotham villain with the Joker, is nonsense. NO ONE of the Gotham rogues does cruel things merely for the fun of it. And no one of them is ever capable of reaching the levels of gratuituous nastiness that the Joker achieve. Each of the Gotham rogues commit evil for a motivation. Wether it's just looking for attention, like the Riddler, or protecting the plants, like Poison Ivy, or even becoming a rich and powerful mob boss, like Scarface.... all of them have a motivation that leads them to commit certain evil deeds. But the Joker is very different. More often than not he has no real motivation to do what he does. Would Scarface, Ivy, Riddler, Two-Face, Penguin, and so on, stop in their way to hideously torture a random person which just happened to cross the street? No. Only the Joker would.
That is not entirely true. Killing is killing and most of the time the reasons don’t really matter at least not in the real world. Of course in comics the crimes do reflect the psychological state of the perpetrator. The crimes of The Joker sometimes do have a reason and a motivation. Sometimes they are as random as they can be. That mix also makes the character very interesting and if you can understand some of his motivations you can see how deep the character really is. Now you mention The Riddler’s need for attention, the same goes to the Joker. A lot of the things that he does are for attention from the batman and fame. Check out The Joker: Devil’s advocate and you will be able to see how hungry he really is for attention.

[k1ll1ng j0k3]

Well the Mainstream Batman solved his "sanity" issues. Grant Morrison took the Moore/Miller grimdark brooding Batman stuff and made Batman go to this ritual (and he took a vacation!) where he performed the Thogal ritual and his "demons" we're removed from his soul.

So now Bruce is just highly driven, not nut balls. Well we will see how he comes back from his trip through history lol. "Dying" and traveling through time can do some damage to your head.

[Drazar]

Hehe true! I really wanna see Morrison touch on Bruce being part of an actual murder. It would be interesting to see how he views himself after finally pulling a trigger of a gun and helping the heroes to kill off Darkseid.

[Matches Malone]

Yeah its always been the opposite to me. He isn't an action villain he poses no physical threat its his mind that is dangerous. He is the most psychological villain I can think of off hand.

[E.Nygma]

Yeah its always been the opposite to me. He isn't an action villain he poses no physical threat its his mind that is dangerous. He is the most psychological villain I can think of off hand.



Just a correction... let's try to use words for their correct meaning. A psychological villain can be 1) a villain that toys with his victim's psychology, using it to his own advantage ( Scarecrow could be an example I suppose); b) a villain that is all about psychological matters or issue (Scarface, in a way).
And an action movie villain can be the most un-physical person ever. Because an action movie villain is: a character who is fully and totally evil so that the viewer does not feel any compassion for him when at the cathartical end of the movie he finally gets his due.

[Matches Malone]

E.Nygma
I fail to see how I used it incorrectly, everything that is Joker is psychological. You say Scarface is a psychological villain because why? Because he is Schizophrenic? Joker is a Narcissistic, Psychopath a more dangerous breed of crazy than Arnold. Everything he is and represents is psychological. What is it about him that makes him not fit your personal definition of the word?

And out of sheer curiosity what is your favorite Batman novel? I want to know who I am talking to and I have found I understand people better (on these forums) when I know what kind of Batman they are into. So humor me please.

edit for new additional information.
Joker is also very good at psychologically manipulating people, Harley being a prime specimen.

[k1ll1ng j0k3]

Yes, I also fail to understand how The Joker is an “action movie villain”. The killing of Jason Todd was to torture batman psychologically, the same as the killing of Sarah Essen and even more the shooting of Barbara Gordon, which he just did to push Gordon to insanity. I can’t really see a bigger example of a psychological attack

[E.Nygma]

E.Nygma
I fail to see how I used it incorrectly, everything that is Joker is psychological. You say Scarface is a psychological villain because why? Because he is Schizophrenic? Joker is a Narcissistic, Psychopath a more dangerous breed of crazy than Arnold. Everything he is and represents is psychological. What is it about him that makes him not fit your personal definition of the word?


As I wrote: because to me Joker is not psychological at all, but merely the typical action flick villain who is only and purely evil and who does evil things for no other reason that because he's soooo evil. Joker has hurt people Batman loves.... and that would make him a psychological villain? Then hello, all of the action flick villains are suddenly very psychological since they all gratuituously hurt the protagonist's loved ones (to trigger the movie plot)?

Then again, this is precisely the reason I opened this thread: I'm trying to understand what is it about the Joker that some people can see, but I can't see.



And out of sheer curiosity what is your favorite Batman novel? I want to know who I am talking to and I have found I understand people better (on these forums) when I know what kind of Batman they are into. So humor me please.


So many, hard to choose one!

First of all, Batman Confidential issues 26, 27, and 28 (basically, the King Tut story arc).

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/40/733837-20878_4_027_super.jpg

A typical mindless action flick. :P But hey, it was wellmade.

I also really enjoyed these specific comic issues:

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/4/37532-5492-42059-1-batman-and-robin-adv_super.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/4/40628-6146-45808-1-batman-gotham-adven_super.jpg


http://josephmallozzi.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/penguin.jpg


http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/4/36016-3993-40217-1-detective-comics-ann_super.jpg


And the whole Batman Black&White:

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/4/37854-5729-42460-1-batman-black-and-whi_super.jpg



Joker is also very good at psychologically manipulating people, Harley being a prime specimen.


That's what I always hear, but I still need to read a comic in which we see how he managed to drive Harley insane and madly in love with him....

[Matches Malone]

Let me get this straight Joker breaks into the Gordon's home Gordon watches as Joker puts shoots her takes Gordon away before Gordon even knows if she is alive or not. After Gordon is taken away Joker takes off Barbara's clothes takes pictures of her (possibly rapes her). Then later the Joker has some midgets strip Gordon naked and makes him ride a circus roller coaster in which he is shown all the naked bloody pictures of his daughter.

All this was done so Joker could prove anyone could be broken, that you were just one bad CIRCUMSTANCE away from becoming him. But Gordon proved him wrong, proved that a man could overcome circumstance just like Bruce did. But anyway NONE OF THIS QUALIFIES HIM TO BE IN YOUR EXCLUSIVE CLUB OF PSYCHOLOGICAL VILLAINS???


That's what I always hear, but I still need to read a comic in which we see how he managed to drive Harley insane and madly in love with him....

??Have you played this game??

Those are some pretty obscure favorites :)

[Matches Malone]

Oh look he is blowing stuff up, he is such a typical action villain with no depth. See how ridiculous that is?
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/4/36016-3993-40217-1-detective-comics-ann_super.jpg

[k1ll1ng j0k3]

I can understand where you are coming from E. Nygma. I mean seeing The Joker as pure evil is not hard to do considering all the things that he has done. I can tell you that The Joker is a very complex character. The motivations that he has through The Killing Joke story provide us with a small window to his mind. He doesn’t go through all that trouble just because he is evil. He does it because he wants to show batman that they are the same. That is why the ending is so symbolic… both laughing at the insanity of mad man trying to help another mad man. The Joker’s motivations are anarchic and very strong. He wants to prove to everyone that our moral code is a joke. He wants to show that we live in an ugly world in which only the fittest one survives and that every action that we take that is “morally” driven is just a lie because it goes against our own nature.
"The only sensible way to live in this world is without rules" That pretty much says everything that he stands for. IThat is what he wants Batman to learn.

[E.Nygma]

All this was done so Joker could prove anyone could be broken, that you were just one bad CIRCUMSTANCE away from becoming him. But Gordon proved him wrong, proved that a man could overcome circumstance just like Bruce did. But anyway NONE OF THIS QUALIFIES HIM TO BE IN YOUR EXCLUSIVE CLUB OF PSYCHOLOGICAL VILLAINS???




Yes, because that was the -only- vaguely introspective story about the Joker, so much that all fans seem to cling to that one single story, even if the writer himself commented that he doesn't like it very much! And "The Killing Joke" still can't hold a candle to "Scarface: A Psychodrama" or to "Questions Multiply The Mistery", both of which definitely weren't masterpieces of character psychology either.



??Have you played this game??




Yes. There was no psychological manipulation at all, on the Joker's side. Unless you claim that making a few compliments to a lady counts as psychological manipulation?



Those are some pretty obscure favorites :)


I know, I discovered I seem to have tastes which are quite different from the typical bat-fans. Maybe because everyone only reads the most popular issues?
Then again, as long as the DC writers can also write some stories that I like, I don't care if those don't end up being the popular ones...

Oh look he is blowing stuff up, he is such a typical action villain with no depth. See how ridiculous that is?
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/4/36016-3993-40217-1-detective-comics-ann_super.jpg


I know, tits and explosions, yai! If only he also had a gun, now that would have been the Perfect American Cover!
Ehe, seriously, the comic inside has nothing in common with the cover. Not to mention this cheesy cover amuses me a lot. XD

[Prince Daka]

Oh look he is blowing stuff up, he is such a typical action villain with no depth. See how ridiculous that is?
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/4/36016-3993-40217-1-detective-comics-ann_super.jpg

Um, read the actual comic before you say something I can call stupid! That's a great story! One of my favorites also. One panel shows a beginner Riddler holding up a clerk with a gun cuz he needs money but Riddler looks really bored, apathetic, and is sucking on a lollipop - erego he finds no amusement in typical villain stuff... he likes a challenge, and leaves clues so he in ensured that challenge and chance to outwit law enforcement & batman. Leave Riddler out of this topic anyway, this about the Joker and why he is so popular that people are willing to dismiss his actions as a master killer. Personally having had a friend who was stabbed to death I don't think much of the Joker's raw homicidal nature. I do enjoy the character though. He can be scary without making him such a mass murderer, just look at Cesar Romero's Joker. Scary stuff, but campy. Heath Ledger's Joker is good, I like his clever with and disgusting mannerisms, but I don't care for how masterful a mass killer they make him. It's a stretch of the imagination and in bad taste, but whatever, I like Joker, but I could see the point E. Nygma is making about how unbelievable it can be to see how popular Joker can be (just like I can't understand why Lady Gaga is so popular, or James Cameron movies are so universally acclaimed). I know I've argued with E. Nygma in the past but it's hard to argue that Joker's immense popularity is sort of in bad taste, at least to those who like him more for his actions than personality.

[Batman The Trailer Hunter]

I think everyone loves the joker because he is the ultimate villian...just like Darth Vader, or cartman. People like the bad guys

[LIGHTS]

People like the bad guys

:D So true.

[Prince Daka]

haha@cartman being the ultimate villain.

problem with being the ultimate villain is the ultimate beatdowns and ultimate humiliations that ultimate villain will ultimately endure.

darth vader wasn't really respectable but powerful, & a tool for the emperor. sure, he's a great character, just stating the subtle truth of all awesome villains - they are losers.

joker invests so much energy into plans that no matter how brilliant seem to fail time and time again & is sent to jail or arkham over and over again just like the other villains.

cartman is so determined to go through with his plans based on his rigid beliefs, values, ideals that are often wrong or dumb and is willing to straight up embarrass himself to do that, and hasn't gained a single friend in the world.

they all aim high, & fall (& some like Vader can redeem themselves in the end). Perhaps that is why people like villainous characters. They are determined to win when they can't win... a common human characteristic, the need to feed the ego despite the chances of success.

[Batman The Trailer Hunter]

haha@cartman being the ultimate villain.

problem with being the ultimate villain is the ultimate beatdowns and ultimate humiliations that ultimate villain will ultimately endure.

darth vader wasn't really respectable but powerful, & a tool for the emperor. sure, he's a great character, just stating the subtle truth of all awesome villains - they are losers.

joker invests so much energy into plans that no matter how brilliant seem to fail time and time again & is sent to jail or arkham over and over again just like the other villains.

cartman is so determined to go through with his plans based on his rigid beliefs, values, ideals that are often wrong or dumb and is willing to straight up embarrass himself to do that, and hasn't gained a single friend in the world.

they all aim high, & fall (& some like Vader can redeem themselves in the end). Perhaps that is why people like villainous characters. They are determined to win when they can't win... a common human characteristic, the need to feed the ego despite the chances of success.

Way to go Dr. Phil! :thumb::thumb:

[Matches Malone]

Um, read the actual comic before you say something I can call stupid! That's a great story!

It was sort of an inside joke wasn't really dissing it, you jumped into the middle a conversation.

[Prince Daka]

It was sort of an inside joke wasn't really dissing it, you jumped into the middle a conversation.

sorry i wanted attention... which i got! :rasp:

[Matches Malone]

You are the prince.

[Cerberus]

Hmm well as long as I can remember I've been more attracted to antagonists than protagonists. . .yes weird I know.

Though I love Joker because of his twisted sarcastic personality and his relationship with Batman [No not in a homosexual way]. Granted I like all the villains in Batman but Joker in a way seems much more fun in my opinion that is :'D

[vicsage]

I don't think he is stereotypical at all, I consider the other villains the stereotype. Everyone always tries to make you feel sorry for a villain. So few villains are written to be inexcusably ruthless. The worst thing you can do to a villain is make you feel sorry for him or give him empathy then he just becomes a misunderstood good guy. This is why The Killing Joke is not my favorite Joker story, the more you know about a character the less you fear and respect him. The reason everyone always craves more Joker is bc he is so disconnected, so uncontrollable, and so unattainable. If he was more sterotypical (sympathetic, relatable, having a "depthy" back story) he might not even be around anymore.

Everyone is always trying to make bad good guys and good bad guys and I'm tired of it!!!

I couldn't agree more. But even in The Killing Joke, Joker specifically states, "If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice." So that story of the failed comedian could just be the lunatic making another mental movie of his past and reinventing himself.

As for Joker's popularity, Nolan's Dark Knight has also fueled a brand new craze for the Clown Prince of Crime. I've gotten so sick of hearing "why so serious?" coming out of the mouths of every person on the street that I've come to sort of re-evaluate the Joker a bit.

I think he's popular for several reasons:

1-He can be charismatic and very funny. People love his laughter, his twisted joy, his sheer insanity in the face of danger. Even the very image of a clown, the false makeup and the wild-eyed appearance (particularly one who's so evil) is memorable and stays with you.

2-He loves violence...and so do most young people these days. In a way, Joker is like a big kid, full of energy and treating the world like a big playground as he makes it crumble. There's something attractive about that, about being free from society's constraints and being able to do as you please.

3-He's mentally unstable and extremely psychotic. Society has a strange fascination with sick minds (Harley Quinn, anyone?). Joker's barbaric lifestyle and unsympathetic deeds only make him stand out even more. He's like evil personified. Add that to the previous two reasons above and I think this pretty much sums up his appeal.

[Matches Malone]

I think the real topic of this thread should be "why is the Joker so unpopular with the creator of this thread?" :P

[Prince Daka]

1-He can be charismatic and very funny. People love his laughter, his twisted joy, his sheer insanity in the face of danger. Even the very image of a clown, the false makeup and the wild-eyed appearance (particularly one who's so evil) is memorable and stays with you.

2-He loves violence...and so do most young people these days. In a way, Joker is like a big kid, full of energy and treating the world like a big playground as he makes it crumble. There's something attractive about that, about being free from society's constraints and being able to do as you please.

3-He's mentally unstable and extremely psychotic. Society has a strange fascination with sick minds (Harley Quinn, anyone?). Joker's barbaric lifestyle and unsympathetic deeds only make him stand out even more. He's like evil personified. Add that to the previous two reasons above and I think this pretty much sums up his appeal.

Not disagreeing with you, but that explanation doesn't explain why he is more popular than other Batman villains who are often also charismatic, violent, and unstable.

I think perhaps, like with other mediums of entertainment, people will gravitate to what is popular within their times. Joker is popular now because the last major Batman movie had him as the star villain. Thanks to Arkham Asylum Harley Quinn is now as popular as ever. Penguin and Catwoman were popular when Batman Returns came out... but nowadays you hear less about those iconic villains... but if they are in the next Arkham game or Batman 3, and they sell well & get popular, I assure you those characters will become popular again, & some of us may wonder why.

Most people gravitate towards their times, especially young people who see stuff like TDK as a reflection of the present.

[SolidSnake_123]

The reason the Joker is so popular is because hes so mysterious. His "No regard for human life" type nature makes a brilliant character, which really grabs people's attention, Also, he actually IS batman in allot of ways. The comparisons between the two don't stray to much away, which adds more depth to the character.

[kalle90]

Unpredictability.

In AA Riddler was about riddles like always, Poison Ivy cared only about plants as always, Two Face is addicted to the coin... Joker is by far the most diverse and unpredictable enemy. He's like Batman but he's also the complete opposite.

Plus he is put everywhere because he's popular and in turn that makes him even more popular. Spiderman's most popular enemy is Venom, the negative of Spiderman. Other original enemies from Sandman to Lizard to Dc.Octopus to Goblin are also very high.

[k1ll1ng j0k3]

I think the real topic of this thread should be "why is the Joker so unpopular with the creator of this thread?" :P I couldn't agree with you more Matches. We have explained clearly why The Joker is such a favorite character among us. I believe we have given very logical and valid explanations but in the end it all comes down to preferences. Some people like The Joker and they have their own reasons for that while others like other villains and they have their own reasons as well.

[vicsage]

Not disagreeing with you, but that explanation doesn't explain why he is more popular than other Batman villains who are often also charismatic, violent, and unstable.

I think perhaps, like with other mediums of entertainment, people will gravitate to what is popular within their times. Joker is popular now because the last major Batman movie had him as the star villain. Thanks to Arkham Asylum Harley Quinn is now as popular as ever. Penguin and Catwoman were popular when Batman Returns came out... but nowadays you hear less about those iconic villains... but if they are in the next Arkham game or Batman 3, and they sell well & get popular, I assure you those characters will become popular again, & some of us may wonder why.

Most people gravitate towards their times, especially young people who see stuff like TDK as a reflection of the present.

But tell me, Prince Daka: Can you name a Batman villain who is more charismatic, violent, and unstable than the Joker?

Not really. Not without bringing up some sympathetic love story or a tragic transformation. Also, few of Batman's villains absolutely crave violence and live on it as Mr. J does. True, many of Batman villains are unstable, but Joker has been deemed the most crazy because he kills with a wink and a smile. I honestly believe that this contributes to his popularity.

And as far as popularity goes, Joker has always been Batman's most iconic and famous opponent. Even when Batman Returns came out, Joker was still popular. He isn't a character who is only "in style" at certain times, he's always been well-liked. Movies like TDK indeed spawn new waves of interest and can affect popularity but the Joker character himself? Come on, you can probably enter a third-world country and show a kid a picture of him and he'll recognize the image (without knowledge of TDK). And by the way, Harley Quinn was popular before Arkham Asylum. It was BTAS that made her a star and if it hadn't been for the popularity of the Joker in the first place, there'd be no Harley at all.

The reason (or reasons) for a character's popularity isn't always obvious and can be contributed to by a large number of factors. But to me, Joker's popularity over Batman's other villains makes complete sense. Unlike other enemies, the Joker is the perfect yin to Batman's yang: The funny criminal vs. the grim crimefighter. Few other villains are so perfectly black and white with their opposites.

[Matches Malone]

I couldn't agree with you more Matches. We have explained clearly why The Joker is such a favorite character among us. I believe we have given very logical and valid explanations but in the end it all comes down to preferences. Some people like The Joker and they have their own reasons for that while others like other villains and they have their own reasons as well.

Well what else can ya do?

In the end there are jagillions of reasons to like the Joker but in the end, like Batman, everyone finds something different about the character that they enjoy. Some enjoy the funny prankster that is always getting Batman into crazy shenanigans whilst some like the murdering, psychotic clown.

[E.Nygma]

But tell me, Prince Daka: Can you name a Batman villain who is more charismatic, violent, and unstable than the Joker?

Not really. Not without bringing up some sympathetic love story or a tragic transformation. Also, few of Batman's villains absolutely crave violence and live on it as Mr. J does. True, many of Batman villains are unstable, but Joker has been deemed the most crazy because he kills with a wink and a smile. I honestly believe that this contributes to his popularity.





See, this is the problem. Joker fans claim as merits exactly what I see as faults, in that character.
Yes, the Joker doesn't have any sympathetic love story, any tragic transformation, any long-rooted trauma, and to make it clear, he doesn't even have a rational objective nor does he suffer from a "real" (albeit extremely hyperbolized) mental disease, and to top that he never feels any compassion or remorse or hesitation about the evil deeds he commits.

How are those merits?
To me, it's precisely those traits which clearly define him as an extremely superficial character, who becomes boring very soon (because, as I said, I need something more than random and senseless acts of gore to feel attached to a character). Some claim he is the most charismatic. To me, he is the less charismatic of them all on account of that superficiality.

[k1ll1ng j0k3]

What you see as superficiality others see as mysterious. As I stated before, there has been times in which The Joker has shown his emotions and views on things. I already posted this but in Emperor Joker he was willing to destroy the whole universe just so people like him wouldn’t be created any longer. He sees the universe as a cruel joke in which people like him are created every minute. He realizes that to be like him one has to suffer immeasurably and loose priceless things. On the other hand he might just want to destroy everything because it would be the ultimate joke. That is the beauty of the character… the mystery of not understanding his actions leaves space for interpretation in which we can reflect ourselves on. We can assign his actions to our way of thinking instead of just blindly following the emotions that the writers put on other characters. That and many other reasons that I have already posted about is what makes The Joker such an intriguing character.

[Drazar]

Don't forget in 90s he tried to summon the biblical Satan just to thank Lucifer for all the work he had done, and now recently Joker mocked the devil. :D

[E.Nygma]

What you see as superficiality others see as mysterious. As I stated before, there has been times in which The Joker has shown his emotions and views on things. I already posted this but in Emperor Joker he was willing to destroy the whole universe just so people like him wouldn’t be created any longer. He sees the universe as a cruel joke in which people like him are created every minute. He realizes that to be like him one has to suffer immeasurably and loose priceless things. On the other hand he might just want to destroy everything because it would be the ultimate joke. That is the beauty of the character… the mystery of not understanding his actions leaves space for interpretation in which we can reflect ourselves on. We can assign his actions to our way of thinking instead of just blindly following the emotions that the writers put on other characters. That and many other reasons that I have already posted about is what makes The Joker such an intriguing character.


Yes, I think I can understand that. I can't say I feel the same; but I guess that would be probably what makes Joker fans say that he is a deep character.
Still. With all the pseudo-psychological drama that goes in the heads of the other Gotham villains, I still don't see the Joker as so charismatic. He is definitely the eviler of them all; but I don't see him as the more complex.

[k1ll1ng j0k3]

Yes, I think I can understand that. I can't say I feel the same; but I guess that would be probably what makes Joker fans say that he is a deep character.
Still. With all the pseudo-psychological drama that goes in the heads of the other Gotham villains, I still don't see the Joker as so charismatic. He is definitely the eviler of them all; but I don't see him as the more complex.
Well, it all comes up to preferences. Since I have always liked The Joker I might know some stuff that you are not aware off. The same goes to me,since you like The Riddler you are able to see things that I would miss.

[vicsage]

See, this is the problem. Joker fans claim as merits exactly what I see as faults, in that character.
Yes, the Joker doesn't have any sympathetic love story, any tragic transformation, any long-rooted trauma, and to make it clear, he doesn't even have a rational objective nor does he suffer from a "real" (albeit extremely hyperbolized) mental disease, and to top that he never feels any compassion or remorse or hesitation about the evil deeds he commits.

How are those merits?
To me, it's precisely those traits which clearly define him as an extremely superficial character, who becomes boring very soon (because, as I said, I need something more than random and senseless acts of gore to feel attached to a character). Some claim he is the most charismatic. To me, he is the less charismatic of them all on account of that superficiality.

Your reasoning would explain why IGN named Joker the #2 comic book villain of all time...in their opinion, Magneto is #1.

[Prince Daka]

Your reasoning would explain why IGN named Joker the #2 comic book villain of all time...in their opinion, Magneto is #1.

meh, the people at IGN have really whack opinions most of the time...

really though, there are SO many great Batman villains... that's what makes the Batman universe so great. with X-Men Magneto is almost always the central villain (not trying to take away from Sinister, Juggernaut, Mojo, & whoever but it's kinda true). i feel Batman is great because most of the supervillains are fighting for that top spot. Joker will always say he's number 1, because he is in love with himself, and his fans will say he's number 1, because they love him. same with anyone else- Poison Ivy, Penguin... they all think they bested the Bats (remember that episode "Almost Got Im"?). With Magneto, it's unquestioned... he is the essential villain... there really would be no story without him. People always try that argument where "Oh, Batman and Joker are the same! They need each other!" ...Get the hell out of here with that nonsense. You could argue that with any villain... dual identities, tragic past, a philosophy, they're ying & yang... not so hard.

[vicsage]

meh, the people at IGN have really whack opinions most of the time...

really though, there are SO many great Batman villains... that's what makes the Batman universe so great. with X-Men Magneto is almost always the central villain (not trying to take away from Sinister, Juggernaut, Mojo, & whoever but it's kinda true). i feel Batman is great because most of the supervillains are fighting for that top spot. Joker will always say he's number 1, because he is in love with himself, and his fans will say he's number 1, because they love him. same with anyone else- Poison Ivy, Penguin... they all think they bested the Bats (remember that episode "Almost Got Im"?). With Magneto, it's unquestioned... he is the essential villain... there really would be no story without him. People always try that argument where "Oh, Batman and Joker are the same! They need each other!" ...Get the hell out of here with that nonsense. You could argue that with any villain... dual identities, tragic past, a philosophy, they're ying & yang... not so hard.

I'm no Joker lover (okay, I'd still place him in my top 5 Bat villain favorites) but I adore each member of Batman's rogues gallery. It was Batman's colorful enemies that originally drew me to the Dark Knight before I even knew anything about him personally. On a side note, my favorite is the Mad Hatter.

I don't consider Batman and Joker the same, but I do think that their adverse relationship and completely opposing views work far better than any other hero/villain team. Batman and Hush? Batman and Prometheus? No other pairing is quite as unique as the grinning ghoul vs. the grim gargoyle.

But again, this all gets back to popularity and trying to explain appeal. Regardless of the relationship between Batman and Joker, the clown's following alone is staggering. I think he's a symbol of rebellion, insanity, humor, and violence and because that's what the young folks of today seem to enjoy (in fantasy land, anyway), he's their icon.

[E.Nygma]

Well, it all comes up to preferences. Since I have always liked The Joker I might know some stuff that you are not aware off. The same goes to me,since you like The Riddler you are able to see things that I would miss.


Definitely! But that's why I wanted to hear from those who know the Joker better since they like him. Even if I don't like the Joker, I want to get a better understanding of the character since he is the main villain in the series.



meh, the people at IGN have really whack opinions most of the time...


Indeed, I'd advise to ignore completely whatever IGN has to say about comic books. They always mess up big time!


People always try that argument where "Oh, Batman and Joker are the same! They need each other!" ...Get the hell out of here with that nonsense. You could argue that with any villain... dual identities, tragic past, a philosophy, they're ying & yang... not so hard.


I must say I kinda agree, since I myself could never exactly see Batman and Joker as yin and yang.
The opposite of Batman, to me, would be someone who is rich, skilled, had to go through a tragedy.... and turned evil. Joker doesn't match the description.

However, I must also agree with this:




I don't consider Batman and Joker the same, but I do think that their adverse relationship and completely opposing views work far better than any other hero/villain team. Batman and Hush? Batman and Prometheus? No other pairing is quite as unique as the grinning ghoul vs. the grim gargoyle.

This is true, too.
And then again, on the other hand......


I think he's a symbol of rebellion, insanity, humor, and violence and because that's what the young folks of today seem to enjoy (in fantasy land, anyway), he's their icon.


Maybe that's what bothers me? That's what I can't understand? I can't figure out how can one relate to a character who is all and only about violence, lack of respect towards any law, lack of emotion towards any other human being, lack of any other coherent purpose that isn't destruction and sufference.
Yet so many people root for the Joker, and that I just can't understand.

[Drazar]

I must say I kinda agree, since I myself could never exactly see Batman and Joker as yin and yang.
The opposite of Batman, to me, would be someone who is rich, skilled, had to go through a tragedy.... and turned evil. Joker doesn't match the description.

Maybe that's what bothers me? That's what I can't understand? I can't figure out how can one relate to a character who is all and only about violence, lack of respect towards any law, lack of emotion towards any other human being, lack of any other coherent purpose that isn't destruction and sufference.
Yet so many people root for the Joker, and that I just can't understand.

The Ying and Yang is more psychological. Batman passed thru a tragedy that made him a possible split-personality who must fight for justice because the Gotham's law system has it's pig holes. Joker passed thru some tragedy that made him see himself a s a clown. Whenever or not it was the Ace chemical factory or simply a bad day, we don't know for sure. Joker represnts himself as an artist who promotes anarchy and well free thinking really. He see sthe world as weird where society tries from young age teach children to be like them. Go by the law and so on, but Joker is just the opposite. He doesn't want to be a norm but is himself and he represents that really.

The Ying Yang you mentioned suits Owlman, Catman, Wrath, Prometheus (the 2nd) pretty well, but we have to remember Joker has alot of money aswell.. Infact he doesn't really care for it. He's not as physically threatening as Batman but he has some muscle atleast hehe. :p

So why do we root for Joker? Maybe it's because he can do the things we can't do? Maybe we are all just as nasty him? Or it's just darn funny to see fictional people killing fictional people? who knows. :p

[Batman The Trailer Hunter]

Me tinks its the laugh.

[k1ll1ng j0k3]

Maybe that's what bothers me? That's what I can't understand? I can't figure out how can one relate to a character who is all and only about violence, lack of respect towards any law, lack of emotion towards any other human being, lack of any other coherent purpose that isn't destruction and sufference.
Yet so many people root for the Joker, and that I just can't understand.This can easily be argued and actually this is not a trend that is most popular among the young and mindless. Frederick Nietzsche, a very important German Philosopher argued that to be a “superman” one has to be beyond morality and law, beyond good an evil, be completely free from social standards and just be one’s own man… just like The Joker. The topic of egoism as well is not a topic that is only identifiable among the young and mindless. I would recommend the book The Virtue of Selfishness by Russian-American philosopher Ayn Rand. In the book Rand argues that selfishness is a virtue because it leads us to protect our own intellect and well being. Of course my simple words don’t honor the complexity of the book.

[Batman The Trailer Hunter]

_Y1ZHzZpmgI

This may shed some light on the situation...

_gBWpWwIBKw&

[E.Nygma]

This can easily be argued and actually this is not a trend that is most popular among the young and mindless. Frederick Nietzsche, a very important German Philosopher argued that to be a “superman” one has to be beyond morality and law, beyond good an evil, be completely free from social standards and just be one’s own man… just like The Joker. The topic of egoism as well is not a topic that is only identifiable among the young and mindless. I would recommend the book The Virtue of Selfishness by Russian-American philosopher Ayn Rand. In the book Rand argues that selfishness is a virtue because it leads us to protect our own intellect and well being. Of course my simple words don’t honor the complexity of the book.

But pardon me, good sir, you have completely misunderstood Nietzsche's words! :P Being above morality and law, good and evil, social standards etc. etc. is NOT being the Joker. The Joker isn't above morality. The Joker is evil. And the Joker isn't selfish. The Joker is cruel.

Joker clearly and undeniably aims at committing evil deeds, and rejoices in doing them. While if you were selfish and above morality, you wouldn't actively search to commit cruelties. Even the Riddler would be a better example of being above morality (even if he isn't): since he doesn't fully understand the possible consequences of his actions, and he doesn't care if his actions may end up causing pain or even death - but he doesn't actively searches to cause pain and death, unless it's for a very precise selfish objective.






This may shed some light on the situation...




Where do these interviews come from??

[k1ll1ng j0k3]

But pardon me, good sir, you have completely misunderstood Nietzsche's words! :P Being above morality and law, good and evil, social standards etc. etc. is NOT being the Joker. The Joker isn't above morality. The Joker is evil. And the Joker isn't selfish. The Joker is cruel.

Joker clearly and undeniably aims at committing evil deeds, and rejoices in doing them. While if you were selfish and above morality, you wouldn't actively search to commit cruelties. Even the Riddler would be a better example of being above morality (even if he isn't): since he doesn't fully understand the possible consequences of his actions, and he doesn't care if his actions may end up causing pain or even death - but he doesn't actively searches to cause pain and death, unless it's for a very precise selfish objective.







Where do these interviews come from??I have to disagree. The Joker is selfish and completely full of himself. As Mark Hamill said in the interview, he considers himself an artist, a genius that is undermined by Batman. Now about Nietzsche, of course The Joker is not Nietzsche’s “superman”. I doubt that Nietzsche would endorse any of The Joker’s actions. Having said that, I do believe that Nietzsche would recognize that The Joker is his own man, he is not bounded by law or morality and that is a step towards becoming Nietzsche’s “superman”. It is also hard to imagine that someone as smart as The Riddler wouldn’t understand the full impact of his actions. Now as you pointed out even The Riddler would inflict pain and death to achieve his own selfish objective. The same goes for The Joker. The only difference is that their objective is different. The Joker wants to show the world that “morality” is a joke. I already quoted The Dark Knight but I will do it again “the only sensible way to live in this world is without rules”. I firmly believe that that is something that Nietzsche would have agreed with. So yes both of them have different objectives and both would do whatever it takes to achieve them and that makes both of them extremely selfish. Now the level of cruelty is a different story but I guess that you would need to be distinctively crueler if you want to “wake the world up” into accepting chaos.

[Matches Malone]

Joker clearly and undeniably aims at committing evil deeds, and rejoices in doing them. While if you were selfish and above morality, you wouldn't actively search to commit cruelties. Even the Riddler would be a better example of being above morality (even if he isn't): since he doesn't fully understand the possible consequences of his actions, and he doesn't care if his actions may end up causing pain or even death - but he doesn't actively searches to cause pain and death, unless it's for a very precise selfish objective.


Na he is correct, your analysis of the Joker is still just extremely shallow. Joker does consider himself to be above morality he considers himself more than human morality doesn't concern him bc he sees himself so far beyond something so petty, so human. He is very selfish, he is obsessed with himself, he is a Narcissist which by definition is him being selfish to the point of mental illness.

He is an extremely deep character in order understand him you have to at least pick up the shovel. It sounds to me like you got a fever and the only prescription is more Joker stories.

I'm gonna make a believer out of you!!! :)

[deck_of_cards]

the reason he is so damn poular is because of his disregard for human life, his twisted cartoon like shape, his skin, his laugh, the thing from the move"WHY SO SERIOUS?", and most impoartant to me... he plans his attacks, they are well formatted. i think that in real life, batman wouldn't know ****! im not dissing or anything im just saying that cuz... im just saying that :L idk... :wave: