The minigames

[Blade_hunter]

It's not a proper suggestion but much more a question about them

Do you want minigames and how do you want them

The first option is for people who want minigames only for playing and action purpose
The second option is for people who doesn't want minigames at all

The third option is for people who wants minigames but only under certain actions circumstances

the option A and B are for people who wants who voted for the option 3 before

The A option is for people who wants to have interactive pinballs, playing tetris or arkanoid just like in SS2 with the game console or TNM with the computers and arcade games terminals.

The B option is for people who wants only minigames for hacking lockpicking and such things

this is a multiple choice poll
Of course people might show what they like and dislike about minigames

[Cmd_lupin]

The reason why voted 3 is very simple, and obeys to one simple rule (make them optional):
The lockpick minigame has already been confirmed by EM.
The pinball example - they could make it like some sort of an further tutorial minigame (like the Ion Storm's Thief - where you could practice your lockpicking skill all night long if you wanted to).
I'm not against or in favor to them, but if they do decide to put them at least make them interesting, optional (this is a must) and relevant to the plot.

[dragons_tongue]

Sure! pinball machines and computer games in computer games actually make for a nice mood change once in a while.....but it should be played in real gametime like the hacking described in the FAQ where you can see around the room and have full awareness of whats going on around you while youre hacking a terminal....so then, you can play tetris while waiting fro the next wave of enemies to show up but if youre caught playing around, you'll pay for it.

Id like to set a grenade trap for my enemies at the room entrance, lure them in and start playing some minesweeper while watching them get blown up or gassed to death from the far end of the room.

[IH-Denton]

It'd be nice to play DX-like piano (= Again.

I want to play minigames in DX3 just for fun not as part of gameplay... but unfortunately, it seems that devs think different

[K^2]

The lockpick minigame has already been confirmed by EM.
Was a lock picking minigame confirmed? I wasn't even aware of lock picking being confirmed... I know they confirmed that hacking will be a minigame. Is that what you mean?

[Jerion]

Was a lock picking minigame confirmed? I wasn't even aware of lock picking being confirmed... I know they confirmed that hacking will be a minigame. Is that what you mean?

It's likely what he meant. I'm not aware of any lockpicking minigame being confirmed either. The hacking minigame was confirmed a year ago.

It'd be nice to play DX-like piano (= Again.

I want to play minigames in DX3 just for fun not as part of gameplay... but unfortunately, it seems that devs think different

1) I'd say that's more of an easter egg than a minigame. :)

2) Are you inferring a relationship? http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs36/f/2008/284/2/f/Think_Different_5_by_rubasu.jpg :scratch:

[Cmd_lupin]

Was a lock picking minigame confirmed? I wasn't even aware of lock picking being confirmed... I know they confirmed that hacking will be a minigame. Is that what you mean?
Yes, hacking. My mistake ... sorry.

[Blade_hunter]

Actually no lockpicking minigame confirmed
The only serious infos I got about that is
There is an Hacking minigame so it's only for computers/terminals
And that minigame is a sort of strategy game where we are supposed to conquest the CPU's territory by keeping our own safe
I think it's that, but can you confirm or deny that ?

[Cmd_lupin]

And that minigame is a sort of strategy game where we are supposed to conquest the CPU's territory by keeping our own safe
I think it's that, but can you confirm or deny that ?
At the date of this post, I can only state what has been writen on the FAQs thread. So I can't give you any type of confirmation.

[Blade_hunter]

I asked mainly Mr K or René because they know about that ;)
I think the info is somewhere on the forum, but I wanted some clarification about it

[Cmd_lupin]

Damn! I'm on fire! :mad2:

[Blade_hunter]

Ah no needs

Hacking is a major pillar of gameplay in DX3 and is certainly not a mini-game feature like we saw in Bioshock 1. We don't have too much information right now but think of hacking DX3 as almost a Real Time Strategy game where you have your territory that must be defended against the CPU. Again, it remains an option which you can modify with augmentations if that is the way you choose to develop your character. You can spice things up with using your hacking skills and/or your social skills to unlock new possibilities, but you never have to do it if you don't want to.

Unlike Deus Ex 1, which took you out of the game world and presented you with a new screen and the progress bar, hacking in DX3 keeps you in the world. Everything is rendered in-engine so as you're hacking at a terminal, you can still look around, up, down, left, and right as things are happening. You have to keep an eye out for guard patrols as you're trying to hack.

There are different levels of hacking software or only different levels of augmentation that effect hacking.
This means that your arm aug, for example, can receive a wall punch talent and an EMP punch talent depending on how many XP you spend on it and in which path you put that XP. So if you decide you want to go all wall punch talent, you can do that, but if you decide to go all EMP punch you can do that as well.

this confirm what I said about the hacking It's just on the FAQ thread

[Jerion]

Damn! I'm on fire! :mad2:

Singed or crispy?

Ah no needs



this confirm what I said about the hacking It's just on the FAQ thread

At risk of sounding like René, Yep!

[Nyysjan]

personally, i have nothing against minigames, as long as they are not mandatory, or atleast regular, part of the game wich is why i have some reservations about the hacking minigame, and possible lockpicking minigame, as i dislike the idea of my skills at hacking/lockpicking becomming more important than Adams (i hate when player skill becomes more important than character skill in RPGs, wich is why i'm usually somewhat uncomfortable about realtime battles and twitch game mechanics in rpgs), altough i assume the mini game would become easier the more skilled our character is at it i guess, or atleast hope, otherwise it could get kinda frustrating.

Somekind of casino we could visit as Adam, and even win/loose money in there would be fun (as would be the option of cheating, with the possibility of getting caught), maybe some sidequests in there as well.

[IH-Denton]

2) Are you inferring a relationship? http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs36/f/2008/284/2/f/Think_Different_5_by_rubasu.jpg :scratch:
The augmentation project? :whistle: :D


Somekind of casino we could visit as Adam, and even win/loose money in there would be fun (as would be the option of cheating, with the possibility of getting caught), maybe some sidequests in there as well.
Mass Effect is good, yep. But not so realy good.

[Blade_hunter]

Deus Ex used skills to "help" the player to be better the shooting is mainly player skill based as well as the stealth.
In the minigame they combine player skills and character upgrades since Adam modifications can affect the hacking process in certain ways.
For the rest I think there is passwords / codes to access to computers and terminals but that's not certain because there no info about that.

Personally for the casinos there is more chances to be caught than cheating with, you will learn that at your own costs.

[Nyysjan]

Mass Effect is good, yep. But not so realy good.

Eh? :confused:
Ahhh. :eek:
Didn't even notice the similarity, but no, i don't mean a small room with couple slot machines for 20 to 200 credits and a minor sidequest, i meant something like a fullscale casino, with slot machines, card tables, roulette, bar, a hotel and dozens or more people mingling around you, and you being able to really gamble with the money you have.
Quests could involve gambling against someone (and cheating, or not) in order to get info out of them, or an introduction, or maybe sneaking into the backroom to observe an underhanded deal somehow involved with mainplot, or to steal a datachip for someone else, or to find proof of the casino cheating (even more so than normal), or anything really.

[IOOI]

^^ I'm already seeing it.

Adam receives an e-mail from an informer in the Hotel where he's staying: "So I have some informations for you. Do you have credits?". To reply, Adam has some options: 1) "I'm a player and I know you like bets. Meet me in the Casino downstairs at 10:00 PM."; 2) "I like treating business in private. We meet up at the parking garage at 7:00 PM." 3) "Why can't we meet up in a public space? Join me for dinner at the restaurant at 8:00 PM."

There are several possibilities that can influence the outcome of this meeting. Adam could get beeing betrayed or not - depending if Adam has done any harm to some allie of the informer... or if Adam has done some big favours for the informer and they are big friends... or if Adam could negotiate somehow with informer in order to not get involved in a fight... or simply because the place Adam chose isn't appropriate for a struggle (the Casino or the Restaurant).

[Senka]

Could work, as long as it doesn't become too similar to GTA. But then again the chance of them adding something so large this far into the development process is.. unlikely.

[IOOI]

There could always be D4us 4x 4. ;)

[ArcR]

Sounds fun. I like puzzles. RTS style sounds interesting.

[K^2]

There could always be D4us 4x 4. ;)
What's "Deus Ex E"? :p

[dragons_tongue]

you can have all the casino fun you want when 'this is vegas' releases.....I just cant agree with limiting nice minigames to only a single casino level since Dx is linear. It would be better if they put similar(but well planned and fun to play) minigames in all the levels like a weighing machine that also tells your fortune like the ones in bus, railway stations and fairs.....except that instead of being random, the fortune should depend on a lot of possibilities taking your past deeds in the past levels into account. You sneak up on your enemy and knock him out with a riot prod just as he steps off the weighing machine...and then, as you search his inventory, you find a card that says:

89 kgs
todays fortune: you will be filled with energy.

[IOOI]

What's "Deus Ex E"? :p

Ha ha, smarty pants. :p There you go, corrected just for you: D4us 4x. :D

[Blade_hunter]

And after that they will do Deu5 Ex 5
Deus Ex Salvation :p

[Mr. Perfect]

When my character has adequate skills/augs/gadgets to hack a terminal or unlock a door, it should be done automatically.

I kinda agree with Pha.

Fallout 3 has minigames for the lock picking and the computer hacking, but they require a certain character skill level too. If your character has computer skills at 45, and a lock needs 50, you're out of luck. If they have the 50, you then get to sit there and goof around with a letter-replacment word guessing game. If the locks are character level based, why is there a player game behind them? Adam either has the skills to get in, or he doesn't! Conversely, if they are meant to be player based, why do they have a character limit to get to? If it's up to the player to beat the system, why is the character holding them back? It's all very... disjointed somehow.:scratch:

[K^2]

Well, on one hand, yes, I would prefer everything to be player skill based. I do not like stats holding me back. But in this case, I completely understand the use of both player and character skills together. If you choose to replay the game, and you've gotten really good at minigames, you can get through any obstacle at the beginning of the game without any challenge.

Though, I don't agree with FO3 approach either. You shouldn't be simply denied access if your level is too low. It should increase difficulty dramatically instead. In FO3 minigame, this is a bit difficult to do. There is only so much you can do to that game. But in DX3, the difficulty can be scaled from trivial (just push a few extra buttons to hack the terminal, barely more work than in original.) or it can be made all but impossible to break through without setting off alarms.

As long as EM balances the hacking game correctly, you will not feel like it is a hassle at all. I'm all in favor.

[dragons_tongue]

K^2: the frequency overload device in Batman:arkham asylum meets your description nicely.

[K^2]

I think I like EM's "RTS" idea better.

[Irate Iguana]

Well, on one hand, yes, I would prefer everything to be player skill based. I do not like stats holding me back.

Then dump those minigames completely. Why even bother with an artificial device restricting you? The door could as well have a "press to open" button similar to how half-life does it.

The whole idea is that a certain path requires an amount of dedication. From having to have enough lockpicks because you choose not to invest in advanced lockpicking to not being able to turn that turret to your side because you put points elsewhere and having to sneak because your can't take the damage as well because of different augs and equipment.

Removing stats (in whatever from) from the game requires no dedication to game type. Not a problem if you are going for a shooter like in Half Life. When dealing with this like skills and augmentations you are choosing to become stronger in a certain area. Without a downside that just makes the player ridiculously overpowered.

[K^2]

That's bogus, Iguana. Let me start with reductio ad absurdum. Imagine that all FPS combat in DX3 is taken out and replaced with encounters where you simply watch your character and enemy character take shots at each other a la old style RPG. Are you going to have a lot of fun with this game? How about when walking through room with guards, you simply walk, and the guards make a spot check against your sneak stat?

When you chose to shoot your way out of a tight spot in Deus Ex, you relied on your own skill more than on skills you invested in. Even with untrained you can land good head shots with a hand gun, and even on expert it won't be any good to you if you can't aim yourself. Same deal with stealth. Regardless of what augs you have installed, you can always fall back on your own stealth skill.

You always had an option to switch from stealth to combat or vice versa at nearly no penalty. Yes, if you have invested in combat skills, augs, and picked up better weapons, it gave you an edge. But even sans that, if you are skilled enough, you can do serious damage. That did not create a serious imbalance.

Now for the more important part.
Removing stats (in whatever from) from the game requires no dedication to game type.

That is absolutely false. Yes, when stats are removed, you are no longer restricted from switching between game strategies based on character skills. But dedication to a strategy lets you train your own skill. If you spend first half of the game stealthing, you'll find it much easier to stealth in later stages, and difficult to switch to direct confrontations. And vice versa.

Adding a sufficiently complex minigame for hacking, one that requires long time to master would result in the same effect. If you were not hacking early in the game, you aren't going to simply switch over to hacking in later stages. And if you did spend time learning to hack, you probably aren't going to be as good at some other aspects.

Granted, this changes the way the game can be replayed. If you played a hacker first time through, you'll have no problem switching from stealthy assassin back to hacker in the middle of your second play through. But if you are simply replaying the game to explore more and try new approaches, why would you revert to something you've already tried?

Finally, if you do end up liking the game, and play through it a number of times trying different strategies and tactics, in the end you'd be able to play using all of your abilities. Yes, difficulty would probably go way down for you at this point, but after you've beaten the game a number of times, does that really matter? On the other hand, you would be able to play as jack of all trades, hacking and shooting you way through regardless of what your XP meter says.

Of course, with all that, there is still room for character experience, and you can invest in things that play on your strengths of things that compensate for your weaknesses. But these should be things where player skill is not applicable or cannot be tested. There should be a strength skill, the speed skill, various modifications to weapons, augmentations and so on. There are enough of such stats for you to tailor your characters as you see fit. In places where you can test player's skill instead, you should capitalize on that opportunity.

For balancing purposes, more than anything else, some skill points can be added to augment or handicap player skill. This can work like the aiming skill, which makes aiming more difficult when skill is too low, or it can be used with hacking by simplifying task of bypassing security at high level. This is most likely how things will end up looking in DX3, but in general, such moves should be avoided whenever possible. Even the aiming skill in Deus Ex was a bit too much. Limiting weapon skills to reload time and kickback control would have been more than sufficient to make them useful to invest into, without having to artificially handicap player's own skill.

[Aceyalone7777]

What about games like in the way System SHock 2 introduced them....

You could find a game-machine and add it into your inventory and then you could find cartiges for this machine in the world.

[Irate Iguana]

That's bogus, Iguana. Let me start with reductio ad absurdum. Imagine that all FPS combat in DX3 is taken out and replaced with encounters where you simply watch your character and enemy character take shots at each other a la old style RPG. Are you going to have a lot of fun with this game? How about when walking through room with guards, you simply walk, and the guards make a spot check against your sneak stat?

If this would be fun in DX3, I don't know. I know very little about DX3. Those types of games however can be very fun. They tend to be big puzzle games where you need to plan an approach through the entire game making sure to take advantages of your character's strengths. Developing your char means access to new strategies or boosting existing strategies.



When you chose to shoot your way out of a tight spot in Deus Ex, you relied on your own skill more than on skills you invested in. Even with untrained you can land good head shots with a hand gun, and even on expert it won't be any good to you if you can't aim yourself. Same deal with stealth. Regardless of what augs you have installed, you can always fall back on your own stealth skill.

You always had an option to switch from stealth to combat or vice versa at nearly no penalty. Yes, if you have invested in combat skills, augs, and picked up better weapons, it gave you an edge. But even sans that, if you are skilled enough, you can do serious damage. That did not create a serious imbalance.

Indeed it didn't. DX was quite an enjoyable game, but that doesn't mean that certain areas aren't up for improvement.

First up, my original post was more concerned with the non-action skills (as I shall call them for know) such as hacking, lockpicking and so forth. Things that gained (or should have) a lot from skill point investment. Replacing those with minigames cheapens the chosen path. Dedication is not needed. All you need to do is get good at a minigame and you are set. These are skills that do not require much suspension of disbelief if they are governed by a stat. That is clearly not the case with combat and sneaking.

In a first person perspective it is really hard to get over the fact that you are not in control of the shooting and hiding. So player skill will always be very important. Having said that, even in the original DX I'd have loved to see a bigger effect from your chosen augs and skills on all aspects of the game. Even the complete removal of the weapon skills (putting them on par with the stealth skills) could still allow for a game where investing in the weapon or stealth path would be needed in order to be able to reliably use it as a strategy. Using your personal skills (and getting better at it) would only get you so far.



That is absolutely false. Yes, when stats are removed, you are no longer restricted from switching between game strategies based on character skills. But dedication to a strategy lets you train your own skill. If you spend first half of the game stealthing, you'll find it much easier to stealth in later stages, and difficult to switch to direct confrontations. And vice versa.

Dedication to a game type by player skill is not the same as dedication to a play type by char skill. How many gamers actually have difficulty switching strategies in a game they have never played after an hour? We do it all the time in games with end-bosses. For all intents and purposes the investment required to become proficient in the various strategies in nonexistent.



Adding a sufficiently complex minigame for hacking, one that requires long time to master would result in the same effect. If you were not hacking early in the game, you aren't going to simply switch over to hacking in later stages. And if you did spend time learning to hack, you probably aren't going to be as good at some other aspects.

If there is a minigame sufficiently complex that you can't master it in half an hour then it becomes detrimental to the game. It effectively cuts off a path of the game because very few gamers are willing to invest in gaining skill in such a minigame in order to enjoy the game they want to play. It does not promote sticking to a certain path, it promotes staying away from that path.



But these should be things where player skill is not applicable or cannot be tested. There should be a strength skill, the speed skill, various modifications to weapons, augmentations and so on. There are enough of such stats for you to tailor your characters as you see fit. In places where you can test player's skill instead, you should capitalize on that opportunity.

What I'm saying is that I'd like the game to move away from twitch-based gaming in all aspects to a more thought-based system. A game where you plan a role for your character and choose the augs, skills, weapons, mods and the like based on that role. The way I see it is that a game where a char can excel directly in all strategies without dedication to a path leads to homogenized gameplay near the end of the game. Moving away from the FPS-side towards the RPG-side.



Even the aiming skill in Deus Ex was a bit too much. Limiting weapon skills to reload time and kickback control would have been more than sufficient to make them useful to invest into, without having to artificially handicap player's own skill.

You could even leave out the weapon skill entirely. Encounters designed with smart enough enemies working as a coherent team with the correct support could be very difficult to take out even for a master shot without the correct augmentations and skills. Things like the Ballistic Armor, Medkits, Ammo types, weapon mods and augs would become more important in this case.

[Blade_hunter]

What about games like in the way System SHock 2 introduced them....

You could find a game-machine and add it into your inventory and then you could find cartiges for this machine in the world.

Good post I submitted the same thing some times ago, I liked the concept and you can find various game cartridges to have different games, in a DOS style games :)

[K^2]

First up, my original post was more concerned with the non-action skills
Sorry, hacking is now an action skill. It really cannot be classified any other way. You are still going into a direct confrontation with the enemy, except your enemy is the security AI.

You still have plenty of other ways to bypass security, though.
You could even leave out the weapon skill entirely. Encounters designed with smart enough enemies working as a coherent team with the correct support could be very difficult to take out even for a master shot without the correct augmentations and skills. Things like the Ballistic Armor, Medkits, Ammo types, weapon mods and augs would become more important in this case.
And you can't do the same thing with hacking? When was the last time that you saw a computer terminal just sitting in a corridor you are following anyways? The terminal is always in some side room, surrounded by guards, protected by a camera, turret, some trip wires, perhaps a robot or two.

If you choose to become a hacker, you still need many supporting abilities to actually make it to the terminal in one piece. Even here you have options. You can choose to be a stealthy hacker or a fighter hacker. Either way, you are going to need augs and skills to make your way past the enemies, and that's going to be a different set of skills and augs than what you would choose for direct assault on the enemy.

[Blade_hunter]

Being able to hack isn't a particular part of stealth or fighting game styles, that's a good analysis of it.

[Irate Iguana]

And you can't do the same thing with hacking? When was the last time that you saw a computer terminal just sitting in a corridor you are following anyways? The terminal is always in some side room, surrounded by guards, protected by a camera, turret, some trip wires, perhaps a robot or two.

And how does this concern minigames and the removal of a dedicated path? I'm afraid you lost me with this train of thought.

[K^2]

And how does this concern minigames and the removal of a dedicated path? I'm afraid you lost me with this train of thought.
It's still a path requiring dedication of character resources. Same as being a dedicated melee fighter or dedicated sniper. You still need how to fight/aim, but there is specific equipment, skills, and augs that help you do this efficiently.

There is no removal of dedication to the path. And as far as increased difficulty of choosing this path, if you aren't ready to dedicate training of your own skills to the game, you shouldn't be playing Deus Ex. Go play Halo, or something.

[IH-Denton]

So... do somebody hear about minigames in DXHR except "HACKING & LOCKPICKING" which we have in our FAQ? Maybe Rene said something? Rene, didn't you? (=

[Blade_hunter]

Well the news is always the same.
for hacking computers and terminals you have a strategy minigame.
For lockpicking and hack electronics we have no shown info, we didn't know if there is a minigame or if it's DX style use of resources or only time based "hack"

[Exian]

I'm not for mini games at all, but maybe under some circumstances I could live with them.. Well I could live with them anyway but they just seem very unrealistic and immature to me, like there's nothing better to code the game with while lockpicking for example, so instead they stick a minigame in. I didn't have the time to read everyone's posts but an interesting lockpicking system was in Thief 3 if anyone knows that ;) luves x

[IH-Denton]

I also prefer minigames as for ingame entertainment (like pinball in DX1), maybe gambling... but not the part of gameplay!