No more loading times pls

[MILO1985]

Dear Eidos!

I hear you have started to work on Thi4f.
Here are some ideas to make sure u get the game right.
Thief 3 was clearly a disaster, and you should return
to the ideas that made Thief 1 and 2 a success.

1. Do NOT insert loading times (for PC at least) They are very annoying. (Just to clarify, I mean loading WITHIN a level, it's ok if the loading takes place in between 2 levels)

2. NO 3d person view please. It ruins atmosphere.

3. Bring back rope arrow.

4. NO more "free roaming" please. We want to play the game, not figure out where to go for 30 minutes just to sell the loot, and then run through 3 loading times to buy the gear.
If we want to grind we'll play WoW.

5. Make sure the map shows where you are. Navigating your way is the most annoying part of the game.

6. Bigger environments please. In Thief 3 buildings are tiny. Please make them large like in Thief 1,2 again.

7. Please do not use the generic design from Thief 3, but go back to wacky and creepy design/artwork/color palette from Thief 1 and 2.

8. In terms of innovative feature it's best to use "situational" gameplay (such as modern warfare 2) instead of free roaming.

9. Also more hidden switches and puzzles, to make game hard.

10. More light areas so it's hard to find a shadow to hide, and make you scared to stay in the light. Overabundant shadows make the game too easy.

11. I learned that japanese developer will be helping you. Please make sure you don't let them make Garret have big eyes like the anime characters, and don't use any anime features, such as flying robots, little girls, etc.

12. When you press escape/map/objectives menu please make sure there's no loading time.

13. Please make sure that the game doesn't have any bugs, and guards fall down after you shoot them with 1 arrow or hit them 1 time with a black jack.

14. And finally, let me know when you have some preliminary ideas/artworks, so I can tell you if they suck before you spend a lot of time doing them.

15. Please get rid of the console elements, they ruin the game. Make it for PC only.

Cheers.

[jtr7]

Yep. Nice post overall!


1. There should be no more need for loading zones, unless they make huge T1/T2-sized city sections and try to connect them for free-roaming (Gah!). Otherwise, that console limitation is no longer an issue.

Oh, and...http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88483



Loading TIME, however, won't be reduced if we expect them to build bigger or more detailed missions.

[KittyCatAngel]

I can handle relatively long loading times, provided there aren't any of those ridiculous loading ZONES in levels.

And I agree about the 3rd person perspective. Takes away immersion completely.

[Namdrol]

And long loading times are usually only when you first fire up a level.

[kabatta]

Maybe a loading level type like in oblivion is in order? *cowers behind a big piece of furniture*

[Platinumoxicity]

Far Cry 2 has 85 square kilometers playing space and 1 loading zone in between, splitting it in half. A game that's unable to function without loading zones in considerable smaller independent levels like in Thief, simply doesn't have a place in the 21st century.

[KittyCatAngel]

far cry 2 has 85 square kilometers playing space and 1 loading zone in between, splitting it in half. A game that's unable to function without loading zones in considerable smaller independent levels like in thief, simply doesn't have a place in the 21st century.

Yes.

[Herr_Garrett]

Maybe a loading level type like in oblivion is in order? *cowers behind a big piece of furniture*

Dynamic streaming, if that's the terminus technicus? That also would screw up Thief.

Imagine, you sneaking up on a guard...
Hefting your blackjack...

*Loading Area*

WTF.

[kabatta]

I rarely had that problem. That's why I proposed the method. But I also play thief/assasin there, so i move very slow.

[kabatta]

That would be the optimum type of loading. Maybe how the missions are loaded in TDM. With a moderately long loading mission and very short loading time for quickloads.

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

Because watching a progress bar for 2 minutes while you load up your single mission is such a forward thinking style of gaming

*yawn*

[kabatta]

I spend 2 minutes or more to load a save in Vampire: the masquerade. TDM is very quick by comparison.

[Namdrol]

Because watching a progress bar for 2 minutes while you load up your single mission is such a forward thinking style of gaming

*yawn*

I guess you're talking about TDM.
I've got a low spec laptop (but still the highest spec I've ever owned), I wait around a minute for a mission to load the first time then subsequent loads are quick as you like.
And this is pretty much standard for me on all games.
And there's no difference in time for loading an fm. By the time I've gone into Darkloader, uninstalled current, installed what I want to play then launched and waited to load there's nothing in it.

[jtr7]

I'm really curious to know why some people think loading times are added in and unnecessary, and why they don't seem to understand why they are there? And again, the more detailed and large a mission map is, the longer it will take to read it off the drive and load it into RAM. How else do you expect the data to get into RAM before you play?

[Namdrol]

Exactly,
My argument when people complain about the constant ramping up of of computer specs is that until you get a computer that turns on instantly with an unnoticeable boot it won't stop.
Here's an interesting (http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archive/2008/08/29/boot-performance.aspx) (if you're a weird geek) article from the microsoft windows 7 developers about boot times.

[glyph07]

I'm really curious to know why some people think loading times are added in and unnecessary, and why they don't seem to understand why they are there? And again, the more detailed and large a mission map is, the longer it will take to read it off the drive and load it into RAM. How else do you expect the data to get into RAM before you play?

Loading times are necessary but unfortunately they also "disturb" the flow of the game.

The perception is that the loading time necessary while u're within a mission takes longer than in between missions because the gamer tension is running still high.

IF (and I pose a question here opened to anybody) is indeed mainly the gamer perception (and not the actual necessary time x reloading the same mission) the actual tricky factor, it might be useful to consider a different set of information given while in waiting.

[Platinumoxicity]

Loading times are necessary but unfortunately they also "disturb" the flow of the game.

Loading times are not necessary. Many multiplayer maps in modern games are huge compared to the missions in TDS and they don't have loading times in between parts of the map, because they simply can't have those.

[jtr7]

We're confusing loading times and loading zones. If each mission were self-contained, rather than trying to have much of the whole City available at once, then there will be no loading zones and the detail will be richer. Loading the mission map will still be necessary, and the time it takes to do so.



I know load times are annoying, but to think they can just be done away with isn't true.

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

I guess you're talking about TDM.
I've got a low spec laptop (but still the highest spec I've ever owned), I wait around a minute for a mission to load the first time then subsequent loads are quick as you like.
And this is pretty much standard for me on all games.
And there's no difference in time for loading an fm. By the time I've gone into Darkloader, uninstalled current, installed what I want to play then launched and waited to load there's nothing in it.

I wasn't referring to TDM, actually :)

I'm just pointing out how un-interesting and un-imaginative it is to settle for a gaming experience where it's single load out missions, which involve sitting in front of a screen for 2-3 minutes watching a bar fill up.

The 1990s are long behind us

We're confusing loading times and loading zones. If each mission were self-contained, rather than trying to have much of the whole City available at once, then there will be no loading zones and the detail will be richer. Loading the mission map will still be necessary, and the time it takes to do so.



I know load times are annoying, but to think they can just be done away with isn't true.

No, being able to disguise their presence from the player is fully possible

[Platinumoxicity]

No, being able to disguise their presence from the player is fully possible

Thief 1 and 2 had nice briefing videos, all of which icluded at least a 30-second quote in the beginning, and a video couple of minutes long. As we can see from Call of Duty 4, the loading of a single mission can be disguised by laying a video on top of it, only showing a narrow progress bar at the bottom. The video takes longer than loading the map.

Seems to me that that is the only way loading times can be hidden away from the player. Then again, Thief is a different game. It requires patience. I couldn't care less if the game only showed me a black screen without any kind of progress bar. I can wait.

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

Thief 1 and 2 had nice briefing videos, all of which icluded at least a 30-second quote in the beginning, and a video couple of minutes long. As we can see from Call of Duty 4, the loading of a single mission can be disguised by laying a video on top of it, only showing a narrow progress bar at the bottom. The video takes longer than loading the map.

Seems to me that that is the only way loading times can be hidden away from the player. Then again, Thief is a different game. It requires patience. I couldn't care less if the game only showed me a black screen without any kind of progress bar. I can wait.

Of course you can wait, but that's not the point. If you don't have to wait why would you? :)

I don't mind waiting 10 mintues for the metro, but it's so much more convenient when it pulls in just as I enter the station ;)

Thief is famous for it's briefing videos and playing these while the game loads is a perfectly suitable way of dealing with the problem. Now, I call it a problem because developers have always tried to make the loading process as interesting as possible and I just feel that this is an easy way to accomplish it.

As for loading "zones", I personally don't think this will be an issue, at all. There's no reason to think it will be.

[glyph07]

Thief 1 and 2 had nice briefing videos, all of which icluded at least a 30-second quote in the beginning, and a video couple of minutes long. As we can see from Call of Duty 4, the loading of a single mission can be disguised by laying a video on top of it, only showing a narrow progress bar at the bottom. The video takes longer than loading the map.


Which comes back to the point I made earlier...it's a question of players' perception. Give them different content and they will feel less disturbed during the game. :mad2:

[Platinumoxicity]

Which comes back to the point I made earlier...it's a question of players' perception. Give them different content and they will feel less disturbed during the game. :mad2:

I'm not exactly sure if you aimed the post at my comment specifically, but I seem to have no idea what you're talking about. And what's with the :mad2:?

[glyph07]

U just need to read my previous post to which u replied some part. Then discourses developed and we got back to the that point.

[jtr7]

I still would very much like to have missions that take place hours, days, weeks, months apart, which would allow more thoughtful story-telling, time for living, time for Garrett to go broke and need to taff-up some money, again, and time for the seasons to change, the moon to go through phases, time for long or boring travel to thankfully not play through, and for the consequences of his actions to build and ripple through time, and many other nice changes from mission to mission at a more natural flow.

[Skaruts]

1. Do NOT insert loading times (for PC at least) They are very annoying. (Just to clarify, I mean loading WITHIN a level, it's ok if the loading takes place in between 2 levels)


Btw, make sure the duration of the mission make it worth waiting 2 minutes to load it. But this must be an unnecessary request already, I sure doubt they would do it otherwise.
Just a reminder. :D

3. Bring back rope arrow.I sure hope so...

5. Make sure the map shows where you are. Navigating your way is the most annoying part of the game.
I kinda like figuring out the map before venturing forth. Adds to the immersive part of it all.

I just don't agree with the situational gameplay thing.
Hmm, don't think it would fit a slow paced game like thief. And it would surely limit the exploration of some environments.



There really isn't a need for anything fancy in a Thief game. Simply load the level and play it without loading zones.

I definitely agree with that. Having loading areas like oblivion can be a cool feature for fast gameplay, but I'd prefer to wait a minute and have the whole mission flow smoothly than having little glitches from loading areas.


I still would very much like to have missions that take place hours, days, weeks, months apart, which would allow more thoughtful story-telling, time for living, time for Garrett to go broke and need to taff-up some money, again, and time for the seasons to change, the moon to go through phases, time for long or boring travel to thankfully not play through, and for the consequences of his actions to build and ripple through time, and many other nice changes from mission to mission at a more natural flow.
That would be a great thing. Indeed.

[zhunt]

what i found even more annoying than the loading zones was the fact that i often popped out the other side of one nose to nose with a city watch guy or some other enemy. so for the love of god, if we have to have loading zones in game, at least make it that you pop out somewhere out of sight etc.

[esme]

what i found even more annoying than the loading zones was the fact that i often popped out the other side of one nose to nose with a city watch guy or some other enemy. so for the love of god, if we have to have loading zones in game, at least make it that you pop out somewhere out of sight etc.I seem to remember there was a fix for that, it was caused because time stopped in the zone you left so if someone shot an arrow at you as you left, then as you came back the arrow would still be in flight, I think there was a tweak to the config files to allow time to continue in all zones no matter which zone you were in

[DarknessFalls]

I'm ok with pre-mission loading times, but I hope EM comes up with a less gamey (more creative) solution to pass our time than in-game screenshots, pagan quotes and gameplay tips. I've always felt that type of thing is a cheap copout. There are much more creative ways to pass our time. Ways that would keep us sucked into the Thief universe, as if we didn't leave it.

Every time T3 did those load screens with quotes, I rolled my eyes in disappointment.

[jtr7]

I seem to remember there was a fix for that, it was caused because time stopped in the zone you left so if someone shot an arrow at you as you left, then as you came back the arrow would still be in flight, I think there was a tweak to the config files to allow time to continue in all zones no matter which zone you were in

That would require some kind of tracking or for the other zones to remain partially in memory, and they weren't. Going through a zone is like quicksaving, and returning is like quickloading. If anything, a tweak would reset the AIs' positions and alertness levels, or just reset them.

[Platinumoxicity]

I'm ok with pre-mission loading times, but I hope EM comes up with a less gamey (more creative) solution to pass our time than in-game screenshots, pagan quotes and gameplay tips. I've always felt that type of thing is a cheap copout. There are much more creative ways to pass our time. Ways that would keep us sucked into the Thief universe, as if we didn't leave it.

A black screen that has some mechanical noise in it, and as the level loads up, the clicking noises get louder, steam pressure gauges and dials light up and eventually fill and light up the whole screen. :D

Or maybe they could simply play the briefing video while loading the mission.

[ToMegaTherion]

A possible problem with loading the mission while the briefing is playing is that, depending on how things are set up, this might require setting the difficulty before the briefing. This might not be an optimal approach.

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

A possible problem with loading the mission while the briefing is playing is that, depending on how things are set up, this might require setting the difficulty before the briefing. This might not be what I'm used to

Fixed

[ToMegaTherion]

If "this might not be an optimal approach" is wrong, then you must think that it definitely is an optimal approach. Perhaps you would like to share your wisdom and explain how there should be no doubt that seeing the objectives before seeing the briefing is the right approach?

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

Of course you can see the objectives before the mission loads in, as part of the movie in the briefing.

You just choose your difficulty before hand either by selecting the difficulty (which determines which objectives play in the movie) for the overall story that progresses to the next level with the same difficulty, or by selecting a "single mission" option that allows you to pick your mission (from the ones completed) at a certain difficulty level

Assuming that the game revolves around single load out missions.

[Namdrol]

Why do you have to choose difficulty?
Just play the game how it's meant to played, on expert.

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

Why do you have to choose difficulty?
Just play the game how it's meant to played, on expert.

LOL
:thumb:

[Platinumoxicity]

A possible problem with loading the mission while the briefing is playing is that, depending on how things are set up, this might require setting the difficulty before the briefing. This might not be an optimal approach.

I know what you mean now, you've got a point there. Didn't think of that. Hmm... :scratch:

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

I'm baffled that people would consider this a point.

Please explain what difference it makes that you must choose your difficulty for a mission before or after a mission briefing.

[Platinumoxicity]

I'm baffled that people would consider this a point.

Please explain what difference it makes that you must choose your difficulty for a mission before or after a mission briefing.

I don't know why but it just seems a bit dumb to first see all the objectives and difficulties on the screen, before actually knowing what the mission is about.

First it says: Get item X. After that you see the briefing video that explains what the item X is and where to get it, and what else you should know.

[Namdrol]

But don't people just play at one difficulty or another? Do people really watch the briefings in a deep quandary and desperate angst about which level to choose?

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

I don't know why but it just seems a bit dumb to first see all the objectives and difficulties on the screen, before actually knowing what the mission is about.

First it says: Get item X. After that you see the briefing video that explains what the item X is and where to get it, and what else you should know.

But you're looking at it from a set Thief point of view, where you hear/watch the distinct briefing that only encompasses the main plot line and then choose the difficulty before the load in, where each difficulty then just adds extra objectives (in most cases) onto the screen which you can see

This method is not crucial to the game and is actually quite strange to me, because it lets you see the differences between difficulties before you choose. I think that for challenge purposes it's more effective to make the player choose the difficulty and then find out what you have to do afterwards. Either way, the differences are slight and the methods trivial, IMO, unless someone has a crucial point that I'm missing?

In the video masking case it would be that you choose your difficulty before the briefing starts. The mission loads and each difficulty would then have a briefing film playing over the loading screen, corresponding to the difficulty and the objectives contained therein, which includes a list of the objectives to be accomplished and then the mission starts with the loading time completely utilised and effectively masked from the player.

[ToMegaTherion]

I would like to see the implications of my difficulty choice on objectives before deciding which difficulty to play on. Otherwise you might get ambushed by annoying objectives that you don't want to do, such as Framed on Expert for people who like the occasional KO, or (I think it was) Casing The Joint which had some sort of "find x secrets" objective on some higher difficulties that I would consider tiresome. Add to that the annoyance of a forced ghosting level that I'd want to play on lowest difficulty to get through most quickly...

But it isn't too big a deal, since you can always go the route, choose difficulty without seeing objectives, load mission, see objectives, restart mission, which isn't too much time wasted. Although it kinda defeats the point of loading the mission during briefing :p