Question that keep you up at night [Archive]

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Pieter888

11-19-2009, 01:06 PM

Hey all!

In here you can post all your crazy questions about thief that makes you go: "well... you know... emm..." or "hhmm... never really thought about that:scratch:"

Who knows you might get an answer in here :eek:

I'll start off:

What is Garrett's last name?
Who wrote all prophesies that have been "written" according to the keepers?

Discuss and add your own questions!:cool:

Nephthys

11-19-2009, 01:11 PM

What happened to his parents.

jtr7

11-19-2009, 02:46 PM

It was "decided" long ago that Garrett (as in Mr. Garrett. No, not seriously, I emphasize.) had the first name of "Lars". And Basso's sister was "decided" to be Sophia, or Sophie.

But seriously, the ancient Keepers wrote the Prophecies the Keepers who followed adhere to and pass on and add to, or scratch off the list as they occur. It's said they "discovered" the Glyphs, and not necessarily all at once.

What happened to his parents? I've "decided" (no, not seriously, I emphasize.) that Caduca was his mother, the father unknown, and the blind young woman with her fatherless infant son and Caduca was taken in by the Order for her exceptional insights that demonstrated she had the "gift" that Keepers spot. She was encouraged to give up her exceptional child, Garrett, to a foster parent, believing him to be in safe hands and sensing he'd be okay. The foster parent died when Garrett was old enough to just fend for himself, but too young to have bonded with anybody. Feeling abandoned and rejected, the seeds of his social disconnection took root. And in the next few years on the streets, running messages, and eventually learning how to pickpocket with the best of them, learning from other packs of street urchins, his apathy for humanity was nurtured and grew strong and sturdy. Caduca, while studying the writings in her years as a Scribe, now in her mid-thirties, discovered hints that perhaps her son had a role to play in coming times, not yet knowing he was "the Thief" that would permeate the Prophecies by the time she apprenticed to become the next Interpreter. It was her keen understanding of the Prophecies as well as her pangs for her son--which, as a disciplined Keeper, she practiced Balanced detachment as best she could--which led to Artemus standing on the street that fateful day, waiting for this boy to make himself known. It was Caduca's keen insights as well as her secret love for her son, that gave her interpretation the power to compel the Keepers not to send out the Enforcers when Garrett threw his hissy-fit and stormed out of his graduation ceremony. Her influence, with the blessing and commands of the Glyphs to hone her interpretive skills, kept him alive when he should've been erased on many occasions. It wasn't until TDS that she finally came to the solid conclusion that Garrett was both the Thief and the One, but she learned of this a few days too soon, and because she intended to tell the Council what no one else knew until the 8th Day, the Glyphs killed her, to keep the Balance, and ensure the corruption ended. LOL!

Okay, what keeps me up at night is:

Just how old is, and who crafted The Eye, from the plentiful sentient rocks in that world? An insane necromancer who made a fatal mistake?

How and why did King Gruliac's hand come to be chosen as an Artifact? It's the odd one out. The rest are minerals.

What were the Pagans doing with The Eye before the Hammers stole it?

How did they "use" The Eye against the Hammers?

What happened when the Trickster failed to get at The Eye, when he tried to crack open the Cathedral, that made him go dormant (effectively) for over fifty years before choosing a pawn to go in and get it for him? Over fifty years to conceive of the Dark Project and his greater knowledge of The Eye's abilities is interesting.

Quad

11-19-2009, 03:03 PM

"What software was used to make the T1/2 cutscenes ?"

"Why did those cutscenes gave the feeling that killing guards was ok?" Such a pity.

".... maybe tomorrow we'll see concept art or even game-images .... *dreams* "

jtr7

11-19-2009, 03:54 PM

From the online auction of Looking Glass's assets. :(

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/AudioVideoProductionStudio5.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/AudioVideoProductionStudio.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/AudioVideoProductionStudio3.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/AudioVideoProductionStudio2.jpg

Anyway, Adobe Photoshop and a Wacom tablet (or similar pen and tablet drawing device) for sure. Quite likely Adobe Premiere (does it do Chroma-Key for the green-screen as well as rotoscoping of said Chroma-Keyed footage?). And I can't be certain about the wave-editing software for the sound production--can you make it out on Eric's screen?

EDIT: Dan Thron says (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1935216#post1935216) After Effects was key!

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/MAKINGMakingOfTMA_01238.jpg

Karen Wolff, working on a frame of the TMA intro:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/MAKINGMakingOfTMA_04637.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/MAKINGMakingOfTMA_05222.jpg

Why did the cutscenes (all three of them: each Intro per game, not including the very different nature of the separate promo videos) show a single killing? To catch the attention of the typical--oh so frikkin' typical--killing machine assassin brute players. And then, another lie to pull them in further: Each game starts out with Garrett robbin' a mansion with a hint of magic and steampunk (in varying degrees), like a plain old thief, and then, slowly or quickly it becomes sneaking and monsters and swirling magic and...and...

Another question:

How did Gamall keep changing skins over the centuries without anyone (maybe she killed them, or sent them off to die on hopeless expeditions, as suggested) noticing "new" Keepers coming and going--all her? Did she pretend to grow old and die repeatedly?

Viktoria

11-20-2009, 01:33 AM

Just need to say - what a superb thread idea. :cool: :thumb:

Platinumoxicity

11-20-2009, 02:55 AM

-Are those 2 binary moons that can be seen in the ending cutscene of the Dark Project? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGZA-KDy87Q)
-Who's the Baron and is the war over yet?
-What happened to Constantine's sword?
-What happened to the Maw after both Constantine and Viktoria were killed?
-What is the blue planet that the crazy astronomer was talking about?
-What are Basso and Jenivere doing nowadays?
-What happened to Lt. Mosely? Is she the sheriff of CW now?
-Why do the frogbeasts explode?
-Who buys all the stuff that Garrett sells to the pawnshops and fences?
-Why does the industrial metal-ish music suit so well as the music in Thief, but all the other games set in "medieval" times have some lame overly dramatic classical scores?

glyph07

11-20-2009, 03:41 AM

glyph07

11-20-2009, 03:54 AM

Plus:

- Can all the plants in the City transform in creatures (like Venusians in Harlock)

- If not then is there a hierarchy in the vegetarian world for which only the more mature/strong etc...plants can conceal a kind of soul?

- What physical form can take The Builder?

- What and where are now the boyish possessions Garrett had while studying and training with the Keepers?

Platinumoxicity

11-20-2009, 04:00 AM

- Can all the plants in the City transform in creatures (like Venusians in Harlock)
- If not then is there a hierarchy in the vegetarian world for which only the more mature/strong etc...plants can conceal a kind of soul?
- What physical form can take The Builder?
- What and where are now the boyish possessions Garrett had while studying and training with the Keepers?

No trolling, please. :D How did you come up with stuff like this?

glyph07

11-20-2009, 04:26 AM

What does "trolling" means? Eng is not my 1st language, so I don't think I quite got it...apologies!

As for the crazy questions...I've got plenty of others :D as I'm sure u all have...don't be shy Taffers, don't be shy!

esme

11-20-2009, 06:21 AM

how does everyone know the identity of the master thief by sight, even from the rear view

GhostStealth

11-20-2009, 07:38 AM

There is only two things that keep me puzzled and curious, who crafted the eye (just like jtr wonders) and exactly how old is the city, I mean, nobody knows how old it is or how many times it has been rebuilt. :scratch:

bambini

11-20-2009, 08:02 AM

kabatta

11-20-2009, 11:34 AM

I'll answer the first and third question in one sentence. The city is the prototype of every city, with a economy, legal system, thiefs. It is unique and representative to the universe that surrounds the Thief game.
And about the bow upgrade: look harder, there is a system to get to it somewhere, but I'm not gonna spoil it for you. I tought you found it already (or should have).

My question: how come tree-loving pagans can ressurect the dead? Aren't they supposed to hate such things?

Platinumoxicity

11-20-2009, 12:44 PM

My question: how come tree-loving pagans can ressurect the dead? Aren't they supposed to hate such things?

Because the faction system in TDS was implemented hastily. The devs didn't have the time or the resources to make actual missions for getting the "respect" from the factions, so they settled for makeshift "quick tasks" like for example, shooting different arrows to some places, taking an object from point A to either point B or point Z, and killing things. They didn't have the time to make a real reason why the Hammerite fort was plagued by zombies, so they decided to put a random pagan to do that. All the side-quests were rushed add-ons. The small shrub ("sapling") was a shrunk-down model of the basic tree, the rustmite model and texture could be made by an 8-year-old in an hour and it looked nothing like the concept. The cornerstones and the cocoons were the most mind-insulting "side quests"...

Of course first they also made the pagan bums as powerful as the hammerites and gave them weapons and magical powers. But that's another story.

-Oh, and what kind of attacks do the earth- and water elementals use?

kabatta

11-20-2009, 12:52 PM

I think the earth elementals are those vines the earth mages summon. Or maybe ents as we know them might be connected to the earth(but that's just speculation). Water elementals are just too unstable to exist. We might never know the looks of them.

What kind of language is that of the necromancers?

Herr_Garrett

11-20-2009, 12:56 PM

- Why is The City called The City? It implies to me that there is but one city in the area, or it would just get confusing, People would say things like "I'm heading into the City tomorrow" "Which one?"
- Where the frick is the Bow Upgrade?
- is the countryside called "The Country"? if so, what is the the country that The City is based in called?
-Is the City the capital, or is the capital called "The Capital"?

The City is the City. That is all. It always have been, and it always will be. More than that, only the Keepers knew.

@Kabatta:
What kind of language is that of the necromancers?

No-language :) There's a thread about it over at TTLG, and I think there's one here too; jtr, I'm quite sure, will paste in the link in just a minute

Pieter888

11-20-2009, 01:37 PM

Just need to say - what a superb thread idea. :cool: :thumb:
:cool:

Did Garrett's parents had the same "talent" Garrett had?
Where does Garrett keep his mechanical eye when he is not wearing it?
Where do the keepers go now?

Platinumoxicity

11-20-2009, 02:00 PM

-What reanimated the corpses in the Bonehoard?
-Why do the rich folk walk around the City in the middle of night without escort or bodyguards in TDS? Why do they walk around at all when they could go on horse carts?
-The City Watch have a "Narcotics" division. What are the drugs?
-Why are all the children in the series depicted as either ghosts of the brutally murdered, or enslaved minds trapped in mutilated bodies and not as healthy, normal people? Are the devs sadistic maniacs?

jtr7

11-20-2009, 04:09 PM

The Bonehoard is a Hammer-built and booby-trapped place. The undead could be criminals worked to death, and we know that too much death and misery can create dangerous levels of necromantic energy.

There's this (unfortunately) UNUSED text from the Bonehoard:
"Quintus' tomb completed today. Family complained, but they
will pay our price. An expensive construction, but well planned.
T'was fortunate for him we had space in the northwest corner.
Several novices have complained of the noise, but they have not yet
learned discipline. Ordered more lye. There come groans from the
Thieves Reward, and the unrepentant oft do not lie easy."

There are no children in the games (Gamall is the only one in physical child form the player can choose to interact with) because of twisted players doing disgusting things. Being ghosts eliminates the players' ability to kill and drown and burn and defenestrate and commit all manner of unnecessary treatments. Also, they'd get killed in crossfire, and need a whole new type of AI scripting to make them act like children in an alarming situation. People already get touchy when a player boasts they like to shoot a broadhead into the widow Moira's face to shut her up. The dead and brutally murdered children are meant to invoke sadness and empathy, unlike children the player themselves can kill and maim.

What are the drugs? Spice, a euphemism for marijuana. What else, we don't know.

Namdrol

11-20-2009, 04:51 PM

People already get touchy when a player boasts they like to shoot a broadhead into the widow Moira's face to shut her up.

In many ways I'm an innocent, it wouldn't cross my mind to do this.

jtr7

11-20-2009, 04:57 PM

Yes. I've read posts that went there to those dark places, with their excuse that "It's just pixels! HAHAHA! You guys are so sensitive! LOL!" Two people got banned for taking it into troll territory.

Nephthys

11-20-2009, 05:19 PM

People already get touchy when a player boasts they like to shoot a broadhead into the widow Moira's face to shut her up.

I hit her with a blackjack when she didn't say anything about me bringing her wine.
That was a bad idea, because she got the guards before I could keep up to her and propertly quiet her.

I think it was good they left out children. I didn't really notice the absence of them.

Nephthys

11-20-2009, 05:47 PM

jtr7

11-20-2009, 07:29 PM

Nephthys

11-20-2009, 10:15 PM

Yeah. It's why I think there's a scarcity of pets and horses and other domesticated animals, too, not just because of the trouble of creating and animating them. There are several signs that the team was conscientious of certain lines they wouldn't cross--like foul language and gore. It's another thing I love about those devs and Thief.

Questions:
Why are all seven days of the week named, but not one month at all?
What year is it in that world? We are told the year is '34', but is that 34, 134, 1234, 1734, 1934...? And what event marks zero?

When do they reveal the year?
Also. they had cats in Dark Shadows.. You could scare them and they'd run off in their poorly animated sort of way until they got a corner and walked around.

Is there a definitive layout of the city? I don't know about from Dark Project to Metal Age, but from that to Dark Shadows, the map of the city changed a lot.

Edit again: Deadly Shadows.
Apologies.

Herr_Garrett

11-20-2009, 11:15 PM

When do they reveal the year?
Also. they had cats in Dark Shadows.. You could scare them and they'd run off in their poorly animated sort of way until they got a corner and walked around.

In DS, you could kill cats with your dagger - even the rats (in DP and MA, you could only shoot at rats). That was pretty pointless, since they didn't do anything: no alarm, calling the guards, attack, or anything.

Once I accidentally "kicked" (I don't know how it happened) a cat into a fire. It was a pretty sad sight.

jtr7

11-20-2009, 11:58 PM

Yep. There's a scarcity of domesticated animals, and the player can cause accidents to unintentionally hurt children and animals.

Nephthys: Bafford's ledgers. And no, there's no definitive layout of The City, but the fans have worked on one using every possible bit of information, including architecture and other non-verbal, non-textual clues. We know the devs easily did not think of everything, but we took canon dead seriously as a rule.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/th_herewego32tt8.gif (http://s70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/?action=view&current=herewego32tt8.gif)

Platinumoxicity

11-21-2009, 01:34 AM

There are no children in the games (Gamall is the only one in physical child form the player can choose to interact with) because of twisted players doing disgusting things. Being ghosts eliminates the players' ability to kill and drown and burn and defenestrate and commit all manner of unnecessary treatments. Also, they'd get killed in crossfire, and need a whole new type of AI scripting to make them act like children in an alarming situation. People already get touchy when a player boasts they like to shoot a broadhead into the widow Moira's face to shut her up. The dead and brutally murdered children are meant to invoke sadness and empathy, unlike children the player themselves can kill and maim.

That didn't even cross my mind. All I noticed was the horrible mistreatment of kids in the series. :hmm: That makes me wonder, during the production of the first game that removed kids from the game environment, did one of the devs/playtesters actually go on a child-killing rampage in the game, and after that thought that they should be removed? If I'd make a game like this, I'd probably learn the hard way not to include kids. When it's too late.

Then again, they're human beings too. I don't really treat people different based on their age. Also, they're just pixels on the screen. Plus those sick basterds can murder kids in a game all they like without having to murder any real children. ;)

Oh, you used the word "defenestration" -doesn't that mean "throwing a person out of a window"? :D

In DS, you could kill cats with your dagger - even the rats (in DP and MA, you could only shoot at rats). That was pretty pointless, since they didn't do anything: no alarm, calling the guards, attack, or anything.
They do in fact alert the guards. Once I was ghosting Moira's and the cat in the dining room was doing it's usual "Race in an oval-shaped track for eternity". When I moved around in the room, the cat was making noise, and the guard and the servant became suspicious.

jtr7

11-21-2009, 02:19 AM

Playtesters would discover it, and the devs would certainly know of the possibility from the settings they would have to choose in the editor. Make them invulnerable as the Mechanist golden cherub, or make them just like all other humanoid AIs, and just lower their HP. Also, a full set of voice files would need to be recorded, including the pain, injury, fear, dying, and death ones. Like I mentioned, they'd really need to have different scripting, too, 'cause as we've seen, all AIs are based on a few sets of behaviors.

And yes, defenestration is about throwing out a window. :evilgrin:

esme

11-21-2009, 04:22 AM

anyone read "the defenestration of ermintrude inch" ?

arthur c clarke story, it's quite amusing

Herr_Garrett

11-21-2009, 06:04 AM

Defenestration: I understand this term was first used during the Thirty Years' War, when it was a euphemism for "kicking the ****ty German emissaries out on the third-floor windows".

Man, those diplomats knew how to talk... :D

glyph07

11-23-2009, 05:34 AM

Platinumoxicity

11-23-2009, 07:54 AM

1) How Garrett cleans his eye.

2) Who does he contact, if by cleaning it it fells and brakes, in order to have a new one
made? (Maybe his got a second one...just in case).

3) Within the South Quarter does Garrett change the address?

4) And at any rate, does his address correspond really to his name?

-He cleans it with oil and a rag. The same way you'd clean an assault rifle. A mechanical contraption like that will work fine for 50 years with proper maintenance.

-He doesn't get a new mech eye because Karras made it for him. (jtr7, confirmation?)

-He changes address all around the City, whereever there is a cheap apartment available. In T1 he lived somewhere between Downtowne and Hightowne, in T2 he lived in New Market and moved to Shalebridge, and in TDS he lived in South Quarter.

-I don't think so. He changes address frequently to prevent the City watch from pinpointing his address by looking at which locations have had burglaries that fit his his MO at a certain period of time. This way he can operate everywhere in the City and nobody can determine his exact location. (Forget the times in TDS where everyone knew where he lived. Mistakes like that should be considered non-canon. Garrett is better than that.)

BlooferLady

11-23-2009, 10:01 AM

There are no children in Thief because you're running around at 2 in the morning, and all the little tykes have been put to bed already. ;) And it would give me ideas about how to use blunt objects around my students.

And Garrett keeps his eye in a glass of water when he's not using it, like some grandma's dentures.

I always wondered why the pagans left their colony in the woods that we see in TMA, and came to live in the parks like hobos? Once Karras got oxidized to death, they should have been free to go back to the forest, right?

Platinumoxicity

11-23-2009, 10:40 AM

I always wondered why the pagans left their colony in the woods that we see in TMA, and came to live in the parks like hobos? Once Karras got oxidized to death, they should have been free to go back to the forest, right?

That was most likely because of the implementation of the City hub. Because of the pathetic scale of the hub, the devs had to put all the mission locations 50m apart from each other, so they also had to put all the rival factions as neighbors. And because the City really is huge, they couldn't just make a path from the center of the City to the outskirts where the pagans would live. Sooo... they had to make the pagans live among the manfools, in their bricksey-steelsey cityhouses. And because of the faction system they had to make both factions, hammerites and pagans equally powerful, so they armed the quiet forest folk to the teeth with woodsie spells and steelsie swords, which they didn't even need in the time of peril, in T2. The whole situation of the pagans in TDS is strange.

glyph07

11-23-2009, 01:32 PM

-He cleans it with oil and a rag. The same way you'd clean an assault rifle. A mechanical contraption like that will work fine for 50 years with proper maintenance.

-He doesn't get a new mech eye because Karras made it for him. (jtr7, confirmation?)

Karras?! But Garrett got his eye in TDP...am I not picking up some humor here?! :scratch:

-He changes address all around the City, whereever there is a cheap apartment available. In T1 he lived somewhere between Downtowne and Hightowne, in T2 he lived in New Market and moved to Shalebridge, and in TDS he lived in South Quarter.

-I don't think so. He changes address frequently to prevent the City watch from pinpointing his address by looking at which locations have had burglaries that fit his his MO at a certain period of time. This way he can operate everywhere in the City and nobody can determine his exact location. (Forget the times in TDS where everyone knew where he lived. Mistakes like that should be considered non-canon. Garrett is better than that.)

Hm...in TMA we saw Garrett change address by force, I wouldn't mind to see him move more often or even to have already 2 or 3 alternatives already prepared where to go.

jtr7

11-23-2009, 03:24 PM

Yep! He has safehouses. I'd like to see them (not all in one game, mind you). When he had to flee his apartment, he went to his safehouse in Shalebridge--and we didn't tag along, unfortunately.

fffff

11-23-2009, 03:28 PM

That would explain how Garrett has such a hard time paying the rent.

jtr7

11-23-2009, 03:29 PM

Yep! He's got living expenses and caches to fill with supplies, always traveling.

jtr7

11-23-2009, 03:30 PM

Hahahaha!

esme

11-24-2009, 03:06 AM

jtr7

11-24-2009, 03:28 AM

Dang irretrievable self-destructing one-time-use rope arrows.

BlooferLady

11-24-2009, 07:11 AM

in TDS, if the attic room near his room in the hotel and the room on top of the pub near his fence were safe houses and could only be accessed by climbing how did he get to them as he didn't get climbing gloves until later in the game

Perhaps from the Thieves' Highway. You know, when it was useful, like in TMA? Ok, I liked TDS, but I didn't even notice that I could get up to the rooftops until my second playthrough.

Are the Kurshok related to the Craymen? They both make clicking noises...

glyph07

11-24-2009, 07:24 AM

Dang irretrievable self-destructing one-time-use rope arrows.

One time use rope arrows?! They sounds like tampons...:D...doubt Garrett will have a stash of those!

Platinumoxicity

11-24-2009, 07:30 AM

Karras?! But Garrett got his eye in TDP...am I not picking up some humor here?! :scratch:

Brother Karras from the Hammerite order gave the mechanical eye to Garrett, before starting to form his own splinter group called the Mechanists. It's all here. (http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Mechanical_Eye)

Telex

11-24-2009, 08:16 AM

Would Garrett melt if exposed to direct sunlight due to his skin being accustomed to no sun exposure?

And on a more serious note, what other locations exist in the Thief universe, apart from the City and the few other nearby areas we have heard mention of? If the City simply that - the City? Or are there any others of equal or greater size?

Platinumoxicity

11-24-2009, 09:33 AM

Would Garrett melt if exposed to direct sunlight due to his skin being accustomed to no sun exposure?

Don't take this too seriously, because I know your question isn't supposed to be taken seriously either. :)
You sleep 7-8 hours a day, don't you? Only in the mid-winter you would't get any sunlight because of your schedule. During summers (we haven't seen any winters in Thief, except for the outro of TDP) You'd get plenty of sunlight every day. Garrett goes to sleep at 0400-0500hrs and gets up at midday or afternoon, does chores, buys food and pays bills, just like a normal nightshift worker. At the evening he plans his work and at night he does his job. And do you seriously believe that Garrett simply can't go out at noon because he could get caught by the police? That's nonsense. Garrett doesn't get caught, nobody knows where he lives or from where he operates. During the day ( 1200-1600hrs, his morning :) ) he can walk around even less suspiciously because he can wear normal clothes and there are a lot more people around.

KittyCatAngel

11-24-2009, 10:29 AM

Only in the mid-winter you would't get any sunlight because of your schedule. During summers (we haven't seen any winters in Thief, except for the outro of TDP)

There's a whole winter area in "Trail of Blood" in the forest! :D

But I know what you mean ;) I just feel silly today.

A question that keeps me up at night:
How the HECK did I knock myself out while jumping over that railing? :D

kabatta

11-24-2009, 10:38 AM

Physics is a harsh mistress in Thief. I had a sudden hear attack on top of an elevator.

Herr_Garrett

11-24-2009, 10:44 AM

Physics is a harsh mistress in Thief. I had a sudden hear attack on top of an elevator.

I don't know if it's magic or physics. I mean, gas and fire arrows clearly are driven by magic - you can outrun them :p

KittyCatAngel

11-24-2009, 10:52 AM

Physics is a harsh mistress in Thief. I had a sudden hear attack on top of an elevator.

It must have been that awful elevator music.

I had a heart attack in a submarine hatch that wouldn't open properly :D I lolled.

kabatta

11-24-2009, 10:58 AM

I got crushed to death by the elevator button. A normal, red elevator button.

glyph07

11-24-2009, 11:10 AM

KittyCatAngel

11-24-2009, 11:13 AM

I got crushed to death by the elevator button. A normal, red elevator button.

That. Is. Epic.

Pieter888

11-24-2009, 11:52 AM

I got crushed to death by the elevator button. A normal, red elevator button.

Those, elevator buttons.... nasty lil' buggers...

jtr7

11-24-2009, 08:05 PM

And on a more serious note, what other locations exist in the Thief universe, apart from the City and the few other nearby areas we have heard mention of? If the City simply that - the City? Or are there any others of equal or greater size?

Cyric and Bohn get a good mention, as well as Blackbrook. The City and Blackbrook were at war for at least two of the games. Cyric and Bohn are/were at war with each other. Bafford apparently threatened to pick up and move to Cyric. Cyric and Bohn were good sources of antiquities and quality craftsmanship. Blackbrook was a source of magical constructs, medicinals, and elemental crystals. The Archmage Tatyana discovered flowers in the Esse Range that could lull sentient rocks and plants to sleep by swirling and warming the magic around them. There are two mentions of parts of The City overseas, where it was faster to ship parcels over the sea than on land, and there's a Governor Horridge over there--but that's still The City. There are the northern territories where Gervaisius and Bafford have hunted and the western countryside. Biddleybong comes from Centauri Vineyards in New Hope (heh heh). The Hand Mages come from the east and have caravans to bring them provisions and gold. There are Lesser Hrabota, and Illyria where some tea comes from, Throve or Throvia where the artist Lizotte and a brand of summer wine come from. There's Warwick (Earl of Warwick). And there's wherever it is the Monarchy rules from. We hear of Dreckboun, Fendon, and Sunnyport as unexplored portions of The City with the cash pits/bear pits. And other districts we have yet to see are Eastport, Newmarket, New Quarter, Shalebridge proper. And finally, there are the "Dead Pits".

esme

11-25-2009, 07:14 AM

I got crushed to death by the elevator button. A normal, red elevator button.I climbed out of a deep drain in an FM, looked up at the roofline to see if there was a way up and stepped back for a better view without closing the sewer cover first

Munin

11-25-2009, 07:37 AM

I never really understood the nature, or reason, of the invisible killer in Constantine's garden? Even though the whole place is devoid of reason, there was a logic to it within the game setting, but the sudden random death at the hands of nothing would be somewhat irksome for the player.

Aceyalone7777

11-25-2009, 01:35 PM

If i fire the fire arrow towards the moon after some time will I be able to see a very small explosion on it???

Platinumoxicity

11-25-2009, 01:57 PM

If i fire the fire arrow towards the moon after some time will I be able to see a very small explosion on it???

No, because the moon moves very fast and is able to move out of the way. You'll miss. :D

jtr7

11-25-2009, 02:40 PM

Nephthys

11-25-2009, 06:03 PM

Brother Karras from the Hammerite order gave the mechanical eye to Garrett, before starting to form his own splinter group called the Mechanists. It's all here. (http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Mechanical_Eye)

a little late for a reply, but here's the sound clip from the game where this is said, if anyone's interested:

http://www.mediafire.com/?w5z02klm2ru

esme

11-26-2009, 03:19 AM

I've gone right off cartoons with droopy in 'em

Aceyalone7777

11-26-2009, 04:06 AM

No, because the moon moves very fast and is able to move out of the way. You'll miss. :D

Then just some planet in some solar system?

jtr7

11-26-2009, 05:15 AM

You'd probably take out the star gazer's first crate launch that finally left the planet's atmosphere. Nothing else about the launch was successful, and "that distant globe, that glorious blue jewel" remains yet unexplored by mankind. I wonder how many assistants and homeless people he killed to just reach orbit.

bambini

11-26-2009, 07:35 AM

Then just some planet in some solar system?
Just quick recap on astrophysics for those who may have forgotten:

Moons and planets are in a state of orbit and so need to maintain a constant forward velocity fast enough that it won't fall into the object it orbits and slow enough that it won't escape the orbit. In addition, ever since the Big Bang, all bodies in the universe are in constant and rapid state of motion away from each other. The fundamental issue is that there are no static objects in the universe.

There are also vast distances between all of the objects in space. In our galaxy alone, the average distance between stars is 3.5 light years. Each galaxy is separated by distances in the order of millions of light years. The key issue here is that the universe is really f***ing big.

So, it would seem that you are firing a fire arrow into a sky filled with rapidly moving objects that are ridiculously far apart. I would say that the probability of hitting one of these objects is so small that we can reasonably assume it's impossible, and that even if it did happen, they're so far away that you wouldn't be able to see an explosion from a fire arrow.

Other than that, I think you might be on to something, Aceyalone :D

esme

11-26-2009, 09:11 AM

questions that keep me up at night - "is that just a shadow in the corner ?", "what was that noise ?", "have I turned the gas off ?", "what is the police helicopter doing over my house at 3am AGAIN ?"

kabatta

11-26-2009, 12:18 PM

Pieter888

11-26-2009, 12:59 PM

a little late for a reply, but here's the sound clip from the game where this is said, if anyone's interested:
http://www.mediafire.com/?w5z02klm2ru
Nice find, I totally forgot that one :thumb:

If i fire the fire arrow towards the moon after some time will I be able to see a very small explosion on it???
Don't think so, even if the arrow went straight forward and would be perfectly on course to hit the moon, the earth's atmosphere would fry the arrow.
but you might see the arrow explode though, it will have to be at night and there must be no clouds, if you wait long enough for the arrow to reach our "Protective layer" you might see a small *pop* of fire.

Aceyalone7777

11-27-2009, 02:07 AM

Nice find, I totally forgot that one :thumb:

Don't think so, even if the arrow went straight forward and would be perfectly on course to hit the moon, the earth's atmosphere would fry the arrow.

I don't think that the earth's atmosphere would be a problem, since the fire in the fire arrow is enclosed in a crystalised case. The crystallised case is fragile enough to desynthesize itself on contact but is also extremely durable to the elements that surround it.

And that's the reason why when Garrett swims fire is stilled maintaned within. And just to show the extremes of that cystalised pad, just try to shoot a fire arrow in lava, or better swim in the lava yourself (...oookayyy....). You will still have your fire arrows...

Bambini gave an awesme lecture on astrophysics up there. As a programmer I know as much of astrophysics as a rabbid eating happily his lettuce. So a lightening up, diminshed all posibilities.

HOWEVER, we as humans are able to calculate many of the planet's distances and land either spaceshuttles or even humans on them. So why not the One True Keeper cannot and who says that the Glyphs cannot?

Maybe if we tie a moss arrow behind a gas arrow we will be able to create life on planets after some millions of years.Maybe if we send a post note tied to the gas arrow as well saying

"Garrett created life here first. I Rock!"

and then after some millions of years the planet is name Garretto and the population Garretters and maybe a statue is hold on the centre of this planet made out of Gold, Gems and Goodies!

----Still, another question that kept me up night is if Garrett is able to put on and off his eye, shouldn't he connects his optical neures to the electrical each time? And since he cannot puts his hand in his eye to reach the cables, shouldn't the cables be long enough to come out of his eyes? Except... Except his eye has a wireless mechanism and also a transmitter and his eye neures have an antenna implanted on each nerve. Maybe bluetooth would do the trick...

Pieter888

11-27-2009, 02:17 AM

----Still, another question that kept me up night is if Garrett is able to put on and off his eye, shouldn't he connects his optical neures to the electrical each time? And since he cannot puts his hand in his eye to reach the cables, shouldn't the cables be long enough to come out of his eyes? Except... Except his eye has a wireless mechanism and also a transmitter and his eye neures have an antenna implanted on each nerve. Maybe bluetooth would do the trick...

I remember a mission briefing in which Garrett cleaned his eye with a piece of cloth.
Since he was holding his eye in his hand I think it's fair to say that Garrett can take out and put in his eye whenever he pleases.

Edit, I found the images:
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/thief/images/7/7a/T2_CS05_05.jpg
^^ This is where Garret cleans his eye

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/thief/images/9/9f/T2_CS05_06.jpg
^^ Here he puts it back in again... eww

jtr7

11-27-2009, 02:26 AM

The old "in a glass on the nightstand" routine. I want to know where he gets the fluid for it, and what other uses that fluid might have, besides giving the Mech-eyes their focus?

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/FluidForGarrettsMechEye-1.jpg

esme

11-27-2009, 03:37 AM

If i fire the fire arrow towards the moon after some time will I be able to see a very small explosion on it???

nice idea and it would be fantastic to see

unfortunately the place you are standing in is basically a box carved out of some indeterminate solid, and the moon, stars, sky and clouds are just textures applied to the roof and possibly the walls of this box, so you can fire your arrow but when it hits the a surface of the box with the sky texture on it it will simply disappear without so much as a poof of smoke

esme - stamping on peoples dreams since 2009

That must be a really red area.

actually it's quite nice, it's just there are fields and allotments near housing so we get kids having "parties" in the fields at odd hours of the morning so the police do regular helicopter patrols out this way to discourage them

jtr7

11-27-2009, 04:25 AM

KittyCatAngel

11-27-2009, 04:30 AM

My fire arrows explode on the sky, as well as the moss arrows tossing out their green patches. :)

The Blooper Reel takes advantage of this by have a button to press that sends two fire arrows up to explode like fireworks. :cool:

Really?

Wow, you'd think they'd just take the collision off completely XD

esme

11-27-2009, 04:47 AM

My fire arrows explode on the sky, as well as the moss arrows tossing out their green patches. :)

The Blooper Reel takes advantage of this by have a button to press that sends two fire arrows up to explode like fireworks. :cool:

well b*gger me, you are right .... what the taff was I shooting at then ? :confused:

getting senile I guess, memory is playing tricks on me, I'll just sit in the corner and dribble from now on

jtr7

11-27-2009, 06:13 AM

S'okay. The games blur together, the missions blur together, the immersion and imagination blur the games' realities, and we all blur together. That's one reason why I'm here. :) Make some tea!

KittyCatAngel

11-27-2009, 06:46 AM

Ahhh, all those wasted minutes trying to get into places you're not meant to be :D Like the top of those big trees in Constantine's mansion.

esme

11-27-2009, 07:04 AM

ok, it'll be cold by the time it gets to flagstaff tho, how many sugars you want ?

Herr_Garrett

11-27-2009, 07:40 AM

I wonder... what's the range of Garrett's mech-eye? I mean, if he takes it out, does he still see with it? It doesn't have a physical interface (from what we can see), so I assume it operates with the same aetheric vibrations as do scouting orbs. Now scouting orbs have quite a range. So...?

Munin

11-27-2009, 10:44 AM

I wonder... what's the range of Garrett's mech-eye? I mean, if he takes it out, does he still see with it?...

I remember having a similar discussion about Garrett's eye with a friend. All good fun, but the conversation became so abstract, as the drink tally reached double figures, that we ended up waxing (nonsensically) about archaic medieval biomechanics and the cleanliness involved when it comes to brass, oil & grease - using the cutscene where Garrett cleans his eye as a jumping off point to sillyness.

It was good fun and I remember a lot of interesting material came from that conversation regarding ideas for a mission that involved Garrett losing his eye, by ironic theft, and some ingame visual effect like blurring out the right side of the screen. We ended up with a scenario that drew from that wonderful film (which I can't remember the name of) where a woman (again, can't remember the name of the actress) could see through the eyes of a killer. We turned that into a scenario where Garrett gets flashes of where his stolen eye is (through the movements of the thief) at certain points in the mission, and he has to track his eye by using visual cues of the locations the thief has passed through.

I'm not sure what all this has to do with anything, but talk of Garrett's eye reminded me of good beer and head scratching conversation. Haha... None of it makes sense, but it is one of those Steampunk aesthetics (the clockwork eye) that are beautiful enough to just accept as part of the genres wonderful fancies. I, for one, would like to believe the eye functions as normal without any sort of physical attachment to the host.

Oh, and as a nice cup of tea was mentioned earlier, it only seems right for this Brit' to maintain stereotypes on the international circuit and offer up my brass tea set for some cog-brewed, steam-savy tea leaves to go around... one lump or two? :)

Pieter888

11-27-2009, 12:47 PM

Now scouting orbs have quite a range. So...?

So... let's get rid of teh scouting orbs and let Garrett trow his own eye to look around instead!:nut:

Aceyalone7777

11-27-2009, 02:00 PM

So... let's get rid of teh scouting orbs and let Garrett trow his own eye to look around instead!:nut:

Eeeewwww.....

(And that's gonna hurt too..)

Btw I always liked Garrett's scared face after Victoria ripped his eye of. One could see the terror in him through his other eye.

Garrett was no hero. He was just the wrong guy in the wrong circumstances.

Namdrol

11-27-2009, 02:49 PM

Garrett was a hero. He was just the wrong guy in the wrong circumstances.
(Fixed)

Who did what needed doing despite himself.

Loup

11-30-2009, 04:56 PM

I remember having a similar discussion about Garrett's eye with a friend. All good fun, but the conversation became so abstract, as the drink tally reached double figures, that we ended up waxing (nonsensically) about archaic medieval biomechanics and the cleanliness involved when it comes to brass, oil & grease - using the cutscene where Garrett cleans his eye as a jumping off point to sillyness.

The knowlege that there are people discussing these things somewhere in the world makes me happy. ^ ^

About the thoughts on T1 storyline, I think that this was why it was so brilliant.

CavaliereNero

12-01-2009, 02:00 AM

Did they REALLY think "THI4F" was a good idea? I mean COME ON!!! :mad2:

And are burricks extinct after TMA? And if looking down ones throat with a lit match is a bad idea, shouldn't a well aimed fire arrow have some interesting effects? :scratch:

jtr7

12-01-2009, 02:10 AM

TDS mentions burrick burgers. And I think the comment about flammability is a joke like joking about explosive flatulence..."Don't light a match!" Unless the burricks can change the mixture as needed. There's all those torches in the Bonehoard and Ramirez's.

bambini

12-01-2009, 02:14 AM

What would a burrick taste like?

kabatta

12-01-2009, 02:17 AM

Like a very tender pork.

jtr7

12-01-2009, 11:50 AM

Other possibilities for gourmet burrick dining:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1222161&postcount=20

Loup

12-08-2009, 01:03 PM

Since most people seems occupied with pondering imaginary burrick dishes, I'll throw in another:

Where do Garrett put the large quantity of huge gems that you find in lost city in TDP?

jtr7

12-08-2009, 03:10 PM

Ands they weren't even worth much. Even crazier...how did Garrett do anything at all with the giant coins behind Constantine's sofa cushions? They are over 4.15 ft./1.25m in diameter and 5 in./12.7cm thick!

Platinumoxicity

12-08-2009, 03:27 PM

Can the iron beasts be confused and jammed by asking them circular logical questions? Like for example: "I always lie. I never tell the truth. Now if I lied just now it means that I could've told you the truth, but then I should've lied...?"

Herr_Garrett

12-08-2009, 10:27 PM

kabatta

12-08-2009, 10:32 PM

I doubt they are that well made. Is attacking an answer?

Pieter888

12-09-2009, 01:41 AM

I believe a question should can be the answer to get rid of the iron beasts, but Garrett only says cool stuff.

Loup

12-09-2009, 07:06 AM

I believe a question should can be the answer to get rid of the iron beasts, but Garrett only says cool stuff.

I don't understand what you said in this post. : /

jtr7

12-09-2009, 09:57 AM

Loup

12-09-2009, 10:33 AM

I shall attempt an extrapolated translation:

"I believe Garrett should be able to ask the kind of question Platinumoxicity put forth to cause a 'bot to destroy itself, but Garrett only ever says cool stuff (that doesn't affect in-game AIs, and the player cannot choose these words, nor direct them to AIs)."

thanks jtr7

I wonder how the masked servants are created.

Or rather.. I don't want to know. And after some more thinking, I really don't want to know. They give me the shivers.

Pieter888

12-09-2009, 01:57 PM

I don't understand what you said in this post. : /

Looking back at that comment... indeed it makes no sense. i was reffering to the comment about asking an iron beast an impossible question. if you ask them the question they will most probably explode after obtaining a stack overflow. thus it is an answer of getting rid of them.
sorry for the confusion caused.

Loup

12-09-2009, 04:08 PM

Looking back at that comment... indeed it makes no sense. i was reffering to the comment about asking an iron beast an impossible question. if you ask them the question they will most probably explode after obtaining a stack overflow. thus it is an answer of getting rid of them.
sorry for the confusion caused.

no prob ^^

All this talk about the children of karras made me long for T2 again. I hope that we'll see a rare still functioning child somewhere in Thief 4, just as a reference to the earlier game.

Nephthys

12-09-2009, 05:16 PM

I hope as well, that they make some nods to the previous games.
Thief DS was too void of them D:. Even for new players, it would have been cool to have a few inside jokes.

Herr_Garrett

12-09-2009, 10:56 PM

I hope as well, that they make some nods to the previous games.
Thief DS was too void of them D:. Even for new players, it would have been cool to have a few inside jokes.

B-b-b-but there were quite a number of them...

Horn of Quintus music in the Museum; in the For Ironwood catacombs Ramirez, Bafford's sister and Farkus; Benny; burrick sandwiches; Garrett's methinks unreasonable suspicion and animosity towards Orland; Gamall, of course; most of DS's Glyphs being taken from DP, and so forth.

jtr7

12-09-2009, 11:17 PM

There was something about the delivery of the story that few can remember what is shared between games, and TDS has a way of burying most of its in-jokes and connections. Yes, Orland was griping and name-calling in TMA, and there's the little journal entry about the Cetus Amicus in TDS. Soulforge gets a mention (no Angelwatch, though). Viktoria gets a few mentions. Brother Sledge, St. Edgar, and the Golden Scales are all connected to David Riegel, formerly called "Sledge" at TTLG (now called "Raen"), who worked on T2X (source of the Golden Scales nod in the Keeper Compound), and the FM The Inverted Manse (source of the name St. Edgar).

Platinumoxicity

12-10-2009, 03:10 AM

jtr7

12-10-2009, 04:53 AM

Yeah, apparently other nods to the FM community were disallowed. I didn't know about the "St. Edgar's" name as one until last week. I'm now wondering if there are others, but it would take the FM players who know TDS well enough to let me in on them.

bambini

12-10-2009, 07:36 AM

So some guy who made an FM in his spare time got a nod in TDS? That's really quite cool. Most of the in-jokes in games and film are to do with the teams who made them. To have a nod to someone who wasn't involved in the game but who was respected by the team is a nice touch and a helluva compliment.

negative_len

12-14-2009, 02:43 PM

No, according to the internet David Riegel (Raen) was on both the TDS and T2X teams.

jtr7

12-14-2009, 04:55 PM

Yeah sorry. The information isn't just found on the internet, but the manuals' game credits. But yes, also, the TTLG community and Emil's Journal, where some interview notes were jotted down.

http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Emil%27s_Journal
http://www.southquarter.com/EmilsJournal.pdf
http://www.southquarter.com/journal_final.pdf.pdf

Wolfdemon6666

12-16-2009, 11:56 AM

I think I would rather have Garrett's wireless eye the the real world alternative.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7g4o9_eyeborg-video_tech

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8msc2_project-eyeborg_tech

http://gizmodo.com/347510/eyeball+implanted-camera-patent-may-bring-electronic-vision-one-day

Pieter888

12-16-2009, 12:51 PM

And the big "eeeww!" of the week goes to Wolfdemon6666's post!

Congratulations :thumb:

Nephthys

12-16-2009, 03:36 PM

why does it need to be screw-shaped?

Also.
Aaauuuugh I didn't expect to see them cutting at it!

Oon Kuka Oon

12-26-2009, 05:50 AM

I have always thought of the history of the City.
My imagination has worked it to times of the Lost City and founding of the Keepers...
I always thought that the first Keepers must have been very wise men, probably advisors of the emperor Va-Taraq. I think the prosperity of the City was much result of their precious work. I've explained the fall of the empire with that the new emperor Va-Toran was arrogant and ignored their advises, and they became persecuted. Still they tried to protect the Lost City. Persecution forced them to use stealth, and they must have had secret headquarters in the great Library of the Lost City - probably under lava now. Upon those times the prophecies were probably written. The Keepers saw the cataclysms that were to come, and rescued most of their writings. But ordinary people had to leave everything, and they lived at the mercy of nature.
Then came man with hammer, and people built houses of stone. But some remembered the end of the old empire, and were afraid of buildings and they lived in the woods, and they were called pagans. The cataclysms caused by Va-Toran had opened ways to other worlds, and monsters roamed in darkness. But stone houses protected people, and the monsters withdrawed as the City expanded.
The City needed organized government, but in fear of mad emperors, the City came to be officially led by Baron. Still the Keepers had their secret society, and they protected the City. Elemental crystals were discovered, and first mage caravans arrived from east.
Could this be true?
Edit: Opinions?

Platinumoxicity

12-26-2009, 03:41 PM

-How many weekdays are there? What are they called?
-How many months are there? What are they called? How many days are in them?
-Since the religions are nothing like the ones in our world, which days in the week are the days-off? Which day is the one that's officially the so-called "Sunday" or "Saturday" -the day of worship and rest?
-What is the basic currency? I know there are copper- silver- and gold coins and each of them mount to their respected higher-value coins, but which one is really the "dollar"?

-And... where's Cetus Amicus? I mean now...?

jtr7

12-26-2009, 07:34 PM

We know nothing of the months names, how many days within, or how many there are.
We do know they have all seven days of the week, and they are named the same as ours.
The Pagans have some different names for the days of the week: Cloudsday, Moonday...

Oon Kuka Oon:
The people who became the Hammerites used to live as the Pagans, and then the hammer was discovered and they began to hammer all over the land, angering the pagans to no end. :) They've been in cycles of revenge/war/rebuilding ever since.

But seriously, you should have a look at the works of Solabusca, which I will link as soon as TTLG becomes accessible again.

Platinumoxicity

12-27-2009, 02:08 AM

We know nothing of the months names, how many days within, or how many there are.
We do know they have all seven days of the week, and they are named the same as ours.
The Pagans have some different names for the days of the week: Cloudsday, Moonday...

I don't remember any readables mentioning the names of the weekdays... was it some random TDS-exclusive addition again?

Teasza

12-27-2009, 04:15 AM

Oon Kuka Oon

12-27-2009, 08:00 AM

I thought that after the destruction of Lost City all people lived like pagans for a while, but if we trust the hammerite texts, someone came and taught people to build houses, and pagans decided to stay with nature, and the hammerites were fanatical apprentices of the "someone" and regarded him as god, and they thought pagans desecrated him becouse they didn't live in the City.

DJ Riff

12-27-2009, 10:57 AM

was it some random TDS-exclusive addition again?

http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Eavesdropping:_In-game_text#M06B06

Lord Karras:

Your sermon was so inspiring. I never thought of it that way,
to be a little cog, floating around in a big boiler. SO warm and
toasty, you see? Please accept my compliments, and do tell me
you will come to the dinner we are having on Saturday.

Lady Einhorn

http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Song_Of_The_Caverns:_In-game_text#M17cook

Cook-

Remember to serve the ballerinas only a
light supper the night of a performance,
lest we have a repeat of little Catherine's
unwelcome addition to Thursday night's show.
Consider this your first and only warning.

-Mr. Cribs, Director of Music

jtr7

12-27-2009, 02:07 PM

I was glad that when I turned my attention to searching out what names of the days, months, seasons, etc., that my GoogleDesktop search was up and running, otherwise a search would've taken many times longer. So besides the days mentioned in TDS:

OQshamanjournal:
"Moonsday
I made them enchantings with my magicer wand to raising them undead again. Them hammerheads bes battling them all day and nights! Bes a good thinger I do. It bes keeper them from burying friendsy Alfred in thems Hammerfool graveyard. Bes I no want him buried in a hammer spot. Bes I want him to resting in goodsy earth – where hims flesh can feeders them trees and vines. If I coulds just getting to them cornerstone - and bes starting the greensy. Then the hammery graveyard bes will turn greens and goodsie. Then will let friend Alfred bes buried there. But bes too risky – them hammers bes too manied. I bes must stay hidings in them sewers in Old Quarter for nows. It bes safe for me there – and I bes close enough to raising more undead with my magicer wand.

Cloudsday
I bes not able to get to them cornerstone agains. Bes a hammerhead near theres. What bes I will do? At least I still havers my magicer wand – I bes will keep raisings them undead to stoppers them hammerheads. Them Woodsie Lord will guider me."

DUNkeepjournal:
"Saturday
I encountered the Kurshok. Luckily, I did not reveal myself, turning back before the Kurshok guard saw me. Interestingly, the creature was keeping watch over a crown, possibly gold, though it was tarnished with age. No doubt valuable, for those concerned about such things. Alas, the crown isn't what I seek, or I would be on my way home - to rest and food.

Tuesday
I have set more glyphs to guide me home when I find the key. All proceeds well. But why did Keeper Gadwall refuse me expedition status? Why did the council not vote? When I return, there will be answers, but for now I must wait. Notes and map are incomplete - why could I not use the journal from the last trip?

Thursday
I have found the glyph key! But the Kurshok spied me, and they are relentless in their pursuit. For the moment I am safe - I have found my way into an ancient library, and secured the door. Apparently, these beasts could once read and write. Perhaps living in these caves for generations has eroded their faculties.

Monday
Every hour the Kurshok try the door. Sometimes I wish they would break through... No other exit. Why was the key so important? So hungry. If I could eat and drink glyphs... Will they rescue me? No one comes. I think I was sent. They hoped for this. Why don't they want the key? What do they fear? So tired..."

PAGcobbleton:
"Monday -
Well, we've made an arrangement with the – well I guess I'll call them the P's, for safety sake. They'll use our garden and such, with a fellow named Scythe tending the crops. Not sure why the wife and I were in such a giving mood. But those plums the woman brought were beyond delicious.

Saturday –
Dinner was a disaster. The spread was first rate, from the garden, but no sooner did we sit when that old biddy Lorna screams and jumps out of her chair. Points at the window, saying something was watching her. I tried to calm her, but then the 'something' let out a yowl. Everyone left in a panic - Harriet in tears.

Monday -
I don't want to worry Harriet, but I daren't go in the garden. I used to go and check on things, but now I'm an unwelcome stranger, and most of the crops I don't recognize. What do they need all those people for? I asked about a hole they were digging, and Scythe gave me a look. Put a chill right down my spine.

Thursday -
I'm going to confront Scythe. A man should be able to walk his own garden without fear. And for what, carrots and apples? This arrangement with the Pagans hasn't worked out, and now it ends. We never agreed to all these strangers coming and going! And we never agreed to those horrible things, whatever they are."

SEAcaptjournal:
"Thursday
Will the storm never let up? We've been kept in port for three days, while the men stay on pay, lest they find other work. The treasure perplexes me. What manner of gold is it that gleams so, but does not dent? What does the strange symbol on it mean? Is it solid? No, not heavy enough – hollow then.

Friday
I endeavored to melt it, but the treasure shows no sign of warp or scorching. I've heard of things protected by wards and such - could this be such an item? I have placed it in the secret room for now, but this warrants further study when I return.

Monday
The weather finally broke, and tomorrow we'll set sail - if the Dock master is in the mood to take a bribe from an old marauder like me. Too bad I'll have to leave behind my fine gold telescope, the Nereid - the glass lens is chipped. If I were a superstitious man, I'd delay the trip. For now it will stay here – on display in the rotunda."

SMarmoryledger:
"Cothron’s Armory Repairs in Progress

Orincross Dagger – sharpen, remove blood residue, polish gold handle. To be picked up by Friday.
Tin Helmet – clean, oil joints. Will be picked up on Thursday.
Stonemarket Bell – Patched worn areas with gold leaf, repaired a dent. Returned to Clocktower in Stonemarket Proper on Monday. Sent invoice to town hall."

DOCdoomedvessel:
"The City Chronicle - Extra
Doomed Vessel Arrives in Docks
The merchant ship Abysmal Gale floated into port on Sunday with its captain and crew of 28 either missing or dead. Witnesses say the vessel, formerly under the command of Captain Robert Moira, seemed to steer on its own. Now under City Watch investigation, the curious are warned to keep their distance from the boat. Officer Dirk Lemar explains:
'With this here cursed ship, you got your zombies, you got your ghosts, plus all the dangers of a regular ship, drowning, splinters, what-have-you.'
With that said, this is one reporter that will indeed be keeping her distance. Additional reports indicate the possibility that undead who disembarked from the vessel may be congregating in or around the sewers.
- C. Mavenstock"

SMgarnetvoucher:
"Work Voucher For: Mrs. Eloise Redding
Repair chip in large Ruby (removed from brooch for repair work). To be picked up on Tuesday. Signed: Vincent Crowley, Stonecutter"

SQlandlordjournal:
"Journal of Z. Wicket

Tuesday
Finally got the rent money from Garrett, the tenant across the hall. Just in time, too. But taff it all, these payments are draining me dry! Why is he blackmailing me? I'm not a rich man. I put the rent money in with the other coins I've managed to gather up, and deposited them as the blasted lowlife instructed, underneath an old sewer grate down in Black Alley. I can't take much more, making payments every single day like this."

SEAstandjournal:
"Tuesday
I thought he'd never leave. I ain't never cursed the weather so much. Almost done checking the upper floors – no sign of the captain's secret.

Saturday
Got the news about the Abysmal Gale today. Good riddance is what I say. The captain ain't never did me no favors, else why am I still working like a dog. I guess Ginny will have to break the news to Mrs. Moira - but if she chickens out, I'll do it, and gladly

Wednesday
With so many house guests about, I can't look for no secret room or anything, I gotta go on pretending to be Lapdog Standish. Somewhere the captain's ghost is laughing at me. If there ain't no treasure, I'll make off with that fine silver mirror in the widow's bathroom – she's in no state to miss it."

Excerpt from the Saga of the Festering Wound:
FesteringWound4_006000, m99c0405:
Well, looks worse, but it doesn't hurt no more, which could be a good sign.

FesteringWound4_007000, m99c0406:
Bathing causes excess humors, eh?

FesteringWound4_008000, m99c0407:
Mmmm, doc says lot's o' ailments could be avoided altogether if only we didn't bathe so frequent like.

FesteringWound4_009000, m99c0408:
I wager that whole arm has to come off before Tuesday. Mark my words!

MUSguests:
"Tuesday
We thought that refreshments would be served. Otherwise, the collection is adequate. -Lord and Lady Van Vernon
Interesting. Might any of the objects be available for sale? -Lady Valerius
A very fine time. Very fine. - Lord Bafford

Wednesday
I think that the space would avail itself nicely to a party of some sort. I should like to know if the museum is available for private evening events. -Lady Rumford
Muriel, you should call on me, I have some pieces that might be more safely held here at the museum. I find your safeguards fascinating, and indeed, they do seem utterly thief-proof. Regards -Lord Gervasius

Friday
We thought there would be more paintings. We like paintings. -Lord and Lady Randall
Ironwork, really? It looked more valuable than that to me. -Countess Von Crete"

OQhauknorjounal:
"Diary of R. Hauknor

Tuesday
The whole thing's running smoother than I could have hoped. Every night I show up, they hand over the stuff. I'm happy, and them? Well, they get to stay in business. It's a sweet arrangement, and the best part is, I'm the sole beneficiary of the deal. Don't have to add it to the City Watch pool - 'cause they don't know about it. See, it takes real brains to pull off a good profitable scam. And if nothing else, I got real brains.

Wednesday
I was just thinking to myself, why not drink a little of the stuff? Say, every third bottle or so. Won't cut in to my profits too much, and besides, I'd just end up spending the dough on liquor anyway. See, now that's real brains again. Probably just saved myself a bunch of coin."

MUSlostfound:
"Lost: One red silk lady's glove, reported by Lady Angelina. Found on Tuesday, under a display case. Returned via messenger. Lost: One man's dress hat, reported by Lord Wishmont, says it's black and needs to return it to his cousin before he sees that he borrowed it without asking."

DUNfirstexp:
"Monday
This is my first expedition into this citadel, but hopefully not my last. There is little here, though some might see value. In a hallway leading up and up, I saw a gold-woven tapestry, the scene perhaps part of their history or mythology - difficult to tell. Books they can no longer read, or so it seems, as they are strewn about and left to decay. But there are still secrets that these Kurshok keep, that we will discover.

Tuesday
We are no further along than we were yesterday. Neville has tried to communicate, but has only a wound to his leg to show for his efforts. I believe we must go back, get supplies and reinforcements to suit the task, and come back refreshed. The council will surely agree and wish to retrieve the glyph key quickly. We will return soon."

SMstonecutterdiary:
"Thursday
I think I got it all figured out. Cut up the big stone as planned, and deliver the package to Milton and Craig. When they look inside, they'll see a bunch of gems and assume they're all there - never guessing I took some. And why not? Their plan doesn't work without a decent stonecutter. And they won't go to the City Watch, because they're the crooks who stole it in the first place.

Friday
Delivered the package. Seemed to go well. Milton was a little tense, but I reckon that's not unusual for a hoodlum. Guess I pulled it off.

Saturday
Couldn't sleep last night. What if they look more closely at their share and then come back for me? I'll hide the gems I took until I'm sure I've fooled them. No one will look in Terces Courtyard, will they? I'll stash them at the base of that Gargoyle statue, around the back where they can't be easily seen."

s5_idle4:
"Maybe I can get next Thursday off, even just a few hours, settle my poor ol' pappy's affairs...may he rest in peace...though, you'd think he could have left me something...a few coppers...anything..."

s2_idle4:
"If I say it real nice and give her the ol' puppy dog eyes...maybe I can get a half day on Thursday...visit my poor ol' mum..."

BKRMbook2:
Friday I managed an invitation to the Pipperin party – or should I say lifted an invitation. Should be a good way to catch up with Lord Conniff, who’s late in his payment. I suspect his heart isn’t in it after all this time and money. I’ll have to remind him of what will happen if his wife finds out about his indiscretions. Lady Elizabeth is making a play for the Opal. Not sure what the Rutherford’s see in that thing, but unfortunately for them, a thief named Garrett nabbed it. She’s been a little sloppy, making inquiries about him in all sorts of places. Even asking if the poor fellow takes health potions. Wonder how much it would be worth to him to know about Lady E’s fondness for poisons.

t3_idle5:
Shouldn't a drank all them beers last night. Ended up at the Sea Witch singin' 'til all hours. Now my voice is hoarse and I smell like ale and tobacco. And bath day ain't until next Friday. Well, the night air 'll freshen me up. Sweet as a daisy.

OQthievesletter:
"Grundholm- You dog! Those helmets you sold to us is junk! A feller is better off wearin a dainty kerchief on his head. We want our money back, or better helmets! You got until Friday. After that, if we ain't satisfied, then you're a dead man. Fey Weaver – Thieves Guild"

DOCnowarehouse:
"Timmy- We ain't got room in the warehouse right now. Boss says not until Friday. Your best bet is shipping it all out from there, and hoping it don't rain. Hope there's nothing too valuable in that cargo. Anyways, sorry about the mixup. Bill"

There are these two mentions, just like DJ Riff posted:
M17cook:
"Cook-

Remember to serve the ballerinas only a

light supper the night of a performance,

lest we have a repeat of little Catherine's

unwelcome addition to Thursday night's show.

Consider this your first and only warning.

-Mr. Cribs, Director of Music"

M06B06:
"Lord Karras:

Your sermon was so inspiring. I never thought of it that way,
to be a little cog, floating around in a big boiler. SO warm and
toasty, you see? Please accept my compliments, and do tell me
you will come to the dinner we are having on Saturday.

Lady Einhorn"

ferus-olin

12-28-2009, 03:39 PM

is their a country? outside the city? it would only make sense..... and i would be an interesting mission (climbing trees and such)

Are their other "cities"?

if their is a country, would it be cool if some ancient pagans had split off and made thier own crazy religion? (mabey even one that intends to rise aganst the hammers?....) they would hide out in the country, and attack the Hammerites from all sides....rushing the city..destroing all machines.....(it would be an epic battle, you have to admit)

jtr7

12-28-2009, 06:41 PM

Wait. Are you saying you've never played anything but TDS? That would explain why there's a lot of disagreement, and will continue to be. Hahaha, you really need to go and catch up on the first 2/3rds of the story.

It helps to read the thread you are posting in, as well:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=1222165&highlight=bohn#post1222165

:D

Oon Kuka Oon

12-29-2009, 04:49 AM

Is the v.1.33 on TDP disc in Thief Collection same as Gold? Or is it even possible to patch "normal" TDP to Gold?

Btw, isn't TTLG available now?

jtr7

12-29-2009, 05:01 AM

The differences between TDP and Gold are too numerous to patch. Every mission is tweaked and two of them are heavily modified--one has doubled in size. There are four entire missions (one is the Blooper Reel), and two of the TDP briefings are different, meaning there are 6 movies that TDP doesn't have. AIs' patrol routes, the types of AIs, and locations have been changed here and there. How AIs react to situations is different. Several new AIs have been added. Lots of new sounds have been added. The full version comes with the behind-the-scenes video and DromEd 1. The changes are too many and too large for a patch. It's a different game.

TTLG has been back for most of a day, now.

Oon Kuka Oon

12-29-2009, 05:55 AM

Ok, but is that v.1.33 Gold?
Found this in TTLG (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128298)
Gold should be v.1.37? Will it install v.1.33 or is that just misspelling?
And will it install Gold over the "normal" TDP or can I get both installed?

jtr7

12-29-2009, 06:13 AM

Gold is a separate game altogether. It is not a patch, so it is not made to overwrite TDP. Treat it as separate as TDP and TMA when installing it. Treat Gold as it's own thing, in its own whole folder, and leave TDP out of it, and leave Gold out of TDP. :)

The version numbers are separate, since they are two separate games. TDP's version number has no bearing on Gold's version number.

CerraMorgan

12-29-2009, 08:18 AM

On the subject of "is there more than one City?" :

I believe that there must be more than one, although I do not recall offhand any specific references to other Cities. There were sailors and travellers, they had to come from somewhere, after all. I'm sure someone can come up with a reference or two from the games.

Besides, having grown up in the country I experienced "the City" as a very commonly used term. It's generally accepted as referring to the largest city in the Province, as in "I'm going into the City to visit family over the holidays". Maybe this is just a local quirk?

Regardless, I always accepted "the City" in all three games as simply being the largest city in the area, as well as Garrett's main place of business.

jtr7

12-29-2009, 08:26 AM

Oh come on, I linked the answers three posts back, and it's a link to another post three pages back in this very thread! Here, I'll quote myself:

Cyric and Bohn get a good mention, as well as Blackbrook. The City and Blackbrook were at war for at least two of the games. Cyric and Bohn are/were at war with each other. Bafford apparently threatened to pick up and move to Cyric. Cyric and Bohn were good sources of antiquities and quality craftsmanship. Blackbrook was a source of magical constructs, medicinals, and elemental crystals. The Archmage Tatyana discovered flowers in the Esse Range that could lull sentient rocks and plants to sleep by swirling and warming the magic around them. There are two mentions of parts of The City overseas, where it was faster to ship parcels over the sea than on land, and there's a Governor Horridge over there--but that's still The City. There are the northern territories where Gervaisius and Bafford have hunted and the western countryside. Biddleybong comes from Centauri Vineyards in New Hope (heh heh). The Hand Mages come from the east and have caravans to bring them provisions and gold. There are Lesser Hrabota, and Illyria where some tea comes from, Throve or Throvia where the artist Lizotte and a brand of summer wine come from. There's Warwick (Earl of Warwick). And there's wherever it is the Monarchy rules from. We hear of Dreckboun, Fendon, and Sunnyport as unexplored portions of The City with the cash pits/bear pits. And other districts we have yet to see are Eastport, Newmarket, New Quarter, Shalebridge proper. And finally, there are the "Dead Pits".

Sheesh. This is why people don't remember anything from the games.

CerraMorgan

12-29-2009, 08:34 AM

Ah, thank you. I knew someone had that!

I did read through the thread first looking for something like that but obviously I was reading too fast - completely missed that post. :)

Oh and as for not remembering anything from the games - I remember far too much, that's the problem. Having played all three official games and a large portion of the FMs, it becomes difficult to remember who said what, when, and where.

Oon Kuka Oon

12-29-2009, 09:15 AM

Why can't I find Gold in my Collection?

esme

12-30-2009, 05:24 AM

Why can't I find Gold in my Collection?did you buy thief: gold?

you can get a copy here (http://www.trygames.com/game/aff=eidos_uk/curr_selected=GBP/lang=EN/vid=04781596fe5f94645b301bac890f48b7)

Voodoo

12-31-2009, 08:44 AM

who crafted the light gem?

Platinumoxicity

12-31-2009, 09:14 AM

who crafted the light gem?

Looking Glass studios. :D

esme

12-31-2009, 10:05 AM

more...

how much is a light gem worth and where can I steal one ;)

Oon Kuka Oon

12-31-2009, 10:11 AM

I think light gem is Keeper stuff.

Platinumoxicity

12-31-2009, 10:38 AM

I think the light gem is a gameplay-related representation of the visibility preception of people. Because you don't have peripheral view or many of the real-life senses ingame, some sort of light-meter is needed to utilize stealth as effectively as possible.

jtr7

12-31-2009, 10:51 AM

Unfortunately, the light gem is for the player only, but...if it were part of that universe then it would be Keeper made, though not Glyph-powered or Glyph-crafted. Who made the light gems in the Ultima games, or were they for the player only, too?

Vae

12-31-2009, 10:54 AM

I think the light gem is a gameplay-related representation of the visibility preception of people.

Yes it is...that is why it is called a visibility gem, rather than a light gem.

jtr7

12-31-2009, 11:40 AM

Both, in-game, and both are accurate but with a different thinking behind them.

Psychomorph

01-01-2010, 01:27 AM

I want light gem to go!

Oon Kuka Oon

01-01-2010, 02:19 AM

What's wrong with it when it's minimized like in Dark Engine?

jtr7

01-01-2010, 02:24 AM

I want light gem to go!

Turn it off and go play some FMs, then tell me you don't need it. The light in the game is not the same as in real life, and with your limited viewport, you cannot see all the factors affecting your visibility. The only way you can get away with never having it is if you only play missions where you are allowed to fight and kill and be seen.

Psychomorph

01-01-2010, 02:27 AM

Less fakes and abstractions, more realism and authenticity, that's (always) my reason for such statements (expecting to be ripped apart).

:D

I'm dead serious, even if the smiley above has a grin :D

jtr7

01-01-2010, 02:29 AM

That's the problem. Viewing the world through a screen, with light and shadow that are not realistic, is why the abstraction is necessary. And it can be turned off in all the games so far. You could have a triangle of light at the small of your back and not know it, but the gem will tell you some part of you is illuminated.

Psychomorph

01-01-2010, 02:50 AM

Problem that I see is how the game treats lighting. In Thief you have absurd situations, standing in an almost bright spot with guards passing by without seeing you. The light gem becomes easily a successful tool to make (ab)use of this flawed game feature.
The game should begin to rely on worst case scenarios, that means the sure way not to be seen must be a spot that is as obviously dark, that you don't need an abstraction to realize you're concealed enough.

Two things are necessary, total darkness (and silence), or complexity of structure you hide behind (and motionlessness). Complexity of structure means, that a spot doesn't need to be to dark to conceal you as long the structure you hind behind is complex enough to totally remove your (human) silhouette (of course, as long as you hold still you won't draw attention).

One thing no stealth game done so far (not that I know of), is to put the background into account. Being 100%ly concealed in shadow doesn't mean you won't get spotted if you are standing between the guards eyes and a well lit out wall.
The possibilities to be concealed by shadow must be brought to a realistic minimum in order to teach the player what he is capable of doing and he won't need an abstraction to know. Thief allows for crazy things, that's the only reason why it needs a light gem.

Loup

01-01-2010, 04:11 AM

I understand your point. About the background I think about metal gear solid 3 which was quite good, but not the same kind of stealth which thief sports.

Yes the fact that you can stand in silhouette to a fire and still not be spotted because of a shadow in the doorway is quite absurd. I think the light gem is a good compensation and without it we would be without any other indicator not know if we are positioned in a good manner. Yes with an actual body which you can see (or don't see because it is hidden in shadows ^^) Would work, but then we need to check the feet every time we are supposed to hide.

jtr7

01-01-2010, 05:54 AM

The games are not made absurdly with the lighting. They are made to be played. Silhouettes would kill the game, and that is why they disabled it. That's right. Disabled. The AIs in TDS are capable of seeing Garrett's shadow, but it was turned off so the game could be played without HAVING to kill or KO every AI. An AI with its back to Garrett could still see Garrett's shadow cast in front of it. Also, no gameworld lighting is realistic--ever--and the calculations to make it so are not worth it. Garrett would have no mastery of stealth with silhouettes. There is almost always backlighting. The games are designed to be playable, and to maximize stealth play like no other game out there. It's not stupid and too much realism is not fun, nor a game. Garrett is supposed to be exceptionally gifted, and your idea of realism would make him very clumsy.

Questions that keep me up at night:
Isn't Thief a game?
Isn't Thief a game that intentionally makes no attempt to resemble reality, but only familiarity?
Isn't Thief already too difficult a concept for the masses to swallow as it is?

Loup

01-01-2010, 08:06 AM

Yeah your right about that the game would be even harder for the masses to appreciate. I'll just hope that EM makes Thief 4 easy to mod and not to much hard coded aspects unless necessary. Then hardcore veterans can take the game to what ever level of unforgiving level though mods while the masses are happy.

jtr7

01-01-2010, 08:16 AM

Yep. With CFG/INI files and hopefully a fine SDK/Editor, those who find their game "flawed" can go in a fix them and/or wait for someone else to show them how.

Voodoo

01-01-2010, 11:42 AM

good point jtr7 I dont think many ppl are ready for the life and times of our beloved Garrett I only hope that the upcoming release will bring many people into the understanding that the Thief universe gets the respect and appreciation its originality deserves.

Oon Kuka Oon

01-01-2010, 01:12 PM

Question that would keep me up at night:
Jtr, where I can find the Solabusca's works you mentioned earlier.

jtr7

01-01-2010, 01:18 PM

Hahaha! Sorry. :p I gave up trying to search with my weak wifi, so I forgot, but here it is:
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1655760#post1655760

It's purely fan-extrapolation from the few bits given by the canon, but it may inspire questions and research.

Psychomorph

01-01-2010, 03:46 PM

The games are not made absurdly with the lighting. They are made to be played. Silhouettes would kill the game, and that is why they disabled it. That's right. Disabled. The AIs in TDS are capable of seeing Garrett's shadow, but it was turned off so the game could be played without HAVING to kill or KO every AI. An AI with its back to Garrett could still see Garrett's shadow cast in front of it. Also, no gameworld lighting is realistic--ever--and the calculations to make it so are not worth it. Garrett would have no mastery of stealth with silhouettes. There is almost always backlighting. The games are designed to be playable, and to maximize stealth play like no other game out there. It's not stupid and too much realism is not fun, nor a game. Garrett is supposed to be exceptionally gifted, and your idea of realism would make him very clumsy.
You know, in the old games, the shadow was your only way of world interaction, it had to work that way. If you remove the textures from a TDP map, you find yourself in an empty square room, you need shadows.

I expect more from a modern game, I want a more detailed world and more action/interaction options. I want curtains to be dynamic, moved by wind, allowing me to hide behind. I want to lay on the ground and hide below objects (furniture, etc), I want to be able to open cupboards and in case of a large one, to hide inside. I want to move furniture. I want more. Shadow should be a supporting aspect, not the one and only gameplay element.

jtr7

01-05-2010, 06:08 PM

Not possible in a game made by a small team in 24 months. Curtains will not be moving realistically for a long time, and they will have to be pre-animated to show movement, or eat up a lot of processing just for aesthetics. Recently, Batman's cape was pre-animated by a guy who studied the physics of fabric movement, for instance. As with wind and all those things, they are a dream and should not be expected to actually happen until computers make a giant leap forward, and the tools for such physics are as simple as assigning them to a room. The processing for what you want is huge and not happening in anybody's home system. As long as CGI-rendered movie scenes still take hours to render per frame, it's still too far off to have it on the fly.

Question: What was Gamall really going to do with the Artifacts? If she was going to neutralize the Final Glyph, protecting her Glyph-powers and immortality, all she needed to do was destroy any one of the Artifacts, and she had two in her possession for days. Other than destroying the Final Glyph, there is no mention of plans to suggest her goals of doing anything else with the Artifacts.

zhunt

01-05-2010, 06:57 PM

So... let's get rid of teh scouting orbs and let Garrett trow his own eye to look around instead!:nut:

reminds me of that movie "warlock" where the warlock channels the devil thru a medium and then cuts her eyes out and is using them to guide him.

zhunt

01-05-2010, 07:02 PM

What would a burrick taste like?

chicken, everything tastes like chicken :)

Nate

01-05-2010, 08:10 PM

Gamall was bipolar....'hmmm, I really need to get around to destroying those artifacts....but I just can't get out of bed and face the world today!'

jtr7

01-05-2010, 08:24 PM

Heh heh heh.

Platinumoxicity

01-06-2010, 03:56 AM

Not possible in a game made by a small team in 24 months. Curtains will not be moving realistically for a long time, and they will have to be pre-animated to show movement, or eat up a lot of processing just for aesthetics. Recently, Batman's cape was pre-animated by a guy who studied the physics of fabric movement, for instance. As with wind and all those things, they are a dream and should not be expected to actually happen until computers make a giant leap forward, and the tools for such physics are as simple as assigning them to a room. The processing for what you want is huge and not happening in anybody's home system. As long as CGI-rendered movie scenes still take hours to render per frame, it's still too far off to have it on the fly.

No offence jtr7, but I think you should stop saying this stuff because many of the real-time rendering stuff that you've said "doesn't exist" is already possible in many games. :D I remember when once you thought it was impossible to make perfectly working real-time mirrors in games. Well, it has been done, even with mirrors reflecting reflections reflecting reflections. Mirror's Edge had dynamic gas movement and wind. When you ran fast through a cloud of steam, the cloud dynamically reacted to the change of air speed in it and the steam particles flowed accordingly. In Far Cry 2, broken tree branches, fire particles and sparks, and leaves fly according to wind during storms.

Oh, and I don't believe that Batman's cape was pre-animated. Many games have flowing soft fabrics that react dynamically to movement. ;)

Psychomorph

01-06-2010, 05:07 AM

Ah well, the confidence to know everything...

Platinumoxicity

01-06-2010, 05:19 AM

Ah well, the confidence to know everything...

Who, me or jtr7? I think what I said was true... from personal experience in fact. :scratch: I can't be sure of anything these days.

Oon Kuka Oon

01-06-2010, 05:58 AM

I bet that on those examples where all those fine little details are, those things are actually pretty important to gameplay. In Thief they would be just off-topic.

Psychomorph

01-06-2010, 06:05 AM

Who, me or jtr7? I think what I said was true... from personal experience in fact. :scratch: I can't be sure of anything these days.
I meant the all-knowing jtr7. :rolleyes:

jtr7

01-06-2010, 08:37 AM

You are on the 'Net. You want to know something, go find it. Remember books? If you want to look up something in a reference source, go for it. Want to know something about some corner of Thief? Search some keywords in your game-files, check the Dark Wiki, find the devs names and usernames and dig in the archives, diaries, transcripts, and interviews. I don't know as much as I can look up, and I have a habit of looking stuff up several times a day as my norm. You can do it on some scale to, and in fact, it would be best if you did, and when questions are asked, you could answer them, like--in Assassin's Creed II, can you go off the mission path and enter those non-quest buildings, or are they mostly filler?

I have a database for Thief approaching 5 GBs, and I add to it weekly. Why, just recently this happened:
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1950366#post1950366

And now I will know this information for myself, having learned it, so now I can share.

esme

01-06-2010, 08:50 AM

did something happen to benny that made him turn to drink ?

Pieter888

01-06-2010, 11:55 AM

did something happen to benny that made him turn to drink ?

He stated clearly that he works better when he's drunk.
He wants a promotion of course! That's his drive for drinking:cool:

jtr7

01-06-2010, 11:59 AM

Somebody beat him up, took his sword, threw it at him and told him to run, humiliating him. Then he found he was Drunken Master after he went to a tavern to sulk, got drunk, and started a brawl in his anger. He was fearless, and no one could bully him anymore! :D

Pieter888

01-06-2010, 12:03 PM

kabatta

01-06-2010, 01:38 PM

Do the builder's children dream?

jtr7

01-06-2010, 02:44 PM

Do androids dream of electric sheep?

SAL-9000: Will I dream?
Dr. Chandra: Of course you will. All intelligent beings dream. Nobody knows why.

HAL-9000: Dr. Chandra, will I dream?
Dr. Chandra: I don't know.

Psychomorph

01-06-2010, 02:59 PM

You are on the 'Net. You want to know something, go find it. Remember books? If you want to look up something in a reference source, go for it. Want to know something about some corner of Thief?
I wasn't referring to your knowledge about the Thief universe, but about your seemingly total confidence of what can or cannot be done in T4. How can you say moving curtains are an absolute impossibility, by this team at that time? You gotta leave us some room for a little bit uncertainty at times. :rasp:

jtr7

01-06-2010, 03:15 PM

My comment applies to any knowledge accrual in the context of Thief 4.

All you have to do is look at what a well-funded and huge team can still not do without shortcuts, and look at EM's Thief 4 team size. They only have around 60 people, they only had around 20 people before the summer, and the end goal is 80. For more than half the development of T4, EM will be employing a partial but core team. Only about 20 members have been there since the announcement, the rest have been hired slowly over the last 7+ months. All you have to do is look at what job positions are open on their site and read their Twitter updates. They are still hiring for animators. Follow along with me and see where I draw my knowledge from. Read the other forums about the other games and see what they brag about or describe the behind-the-scenes processes of and notice that what you think is somehow simple and easy is in fact not at all. When modern game companies are still talking about how they've created illusions in the games and how little of it is real-time calculations for the physics, and how software that does give the effect is still not commonly implemented, you can only conclude that it's still too much to ask at this time. It's all there, and I'm only one of the few that keeps sharing the findings, and I'm only repeating what was said months before you started posting here. On several occasions I've asked for correction if the facts are not what I understand them to be, and you are invited to correct me with facts, too. :)

And you STILL haven't answered my question about AC2's vast cityscapes. I already strongly suspect those buildings are filler, and thus, not an argument for the possibility of an open-world City.

Psychomorph

01-06-2010, 03:52 PM

That what you think is somehow simple and easy is in fact not at all.
Saying that dynamic curtains are "not possible", at all, is still just an assumption and a jump to conclusion.

Don't get me wrong, you could be right about it (wouldn't surprise me at all, as you always have to keep your demands as low as possible as a gamer [I most certainly do], because I know how difficult game development is/can be), but you can't just always say "nope" to some details you don't really have an insight into (unless you're a dev and know exactly what you say, but I don't know that).

And you STILL haven't answered my question about AC2's vast cityscapes. I already strongly suspect those buildings are filler, and thus, not an argument for the possibility of an open-world City.
:scratch: Could you rephrase the question? I don't really know what to say, only that I don't like fillers, not if they are that obvious. But I better have dynamic curtains to hide behind, than worrying about fillers that I probably (hopefully) wont notice. :D

jtr7

01-06-2010, 04:33 PM

Oh! I see! You are taking me most literally outside the context of the themes I repeat, and not taking into account that there are numerous things more important than those curtains to worry about. If I CAN do something, I still have to agree to DO it, and if I do NOT agree to do it, due to higher priorities and a full plate of them before I could ever get around to building fluff, then it will be IMPOSSIBLE for you to see it since I will NOT do it. The work will be finished and any possibility would've passed--decided upon by very real collections of reasons.

More dynamic shadows and dynamic ropes, chains, and cables would be more in keeping with useful evolution of Thief, as it actually adds to gameplay and player freedom of movement, than a cover object that moves or not but does the same thing either way. Moving curtains are surface detail, and has no gameplay value. It's extra processing for visual detail where again, there are even more important visuals to add detail to that I'd hope they got working first, like AI movement. There's already a strong chance there will be even less mo-cap in T4 than in T3, so I'd like them to get their cartoony movements less slapsticky.

Here's one guy who's trying to get cloth simulation in a game (Uploaded September 2007). Read his comments:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDsdQv0xiyk

Uploaded in March 2009:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtyIjRD6lAw

Uploaded May 2009, at the :59 mark, after he stops whipping the frikkin' camera around:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-olDmf5nrU

Uploaded December 2009:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPhX_lzRK2U

The tech exists, so why is it still being pre-animated, hand-animated, or used in limited ways, if at all, in games even today? It's gotta be money.

jtr7

01-27-2010, 03:53 PM

I'd like to know the story behind this:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/TrixieTats.jpg

Thought was put into it, and then it was not followed through on. The in-game model has no tattoos. The two-headed ogre/ettin was dropped, as was the bug demon (except for wall-carvings), and the devs went with half-man/half-beast creatures, but I included it only in case the star was meant to connect the ettin to the Trickster.

Platinumoxicity

01-28-2010, 12:12 PM

The two-headed ogre/ettin was dropped, as was the bug demon (except for wall-carvings)

Were there bug demon wall carvings? :scratch: I only remember that there was actually an unused skin for the spider demon in the T1 crfs. But I don't remember anything about the bug demon except for it's only appearance in "Blooper reel".

jtr7

01-28-2010, 02:37 PM

In Con's manor are several of these textures, and some spit the purple bolts.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/BugDemonCarving.gif

(That image is from DromEd's 3D viewport, not from in-game.)

Pieter888

01-28-2010, 03:37 PM

I wonder what kind of glyph the old hag was trying to draw at the end of TDS after you've activated the final glyph...

Loup

01-28-2010, 03:54 PM

I wonder how the flashbombs works. Magnesium or unknown steampunkish fiction? : /

jtr7

01-28-2010, 04:04 PM

If Gamall was drawing a Keeper Door Glyph, she chose a complicated one to escape, if she wasn't just trying out any old Glyph to see if her powers really were gone. If she was drawing the Discarta Glyph, it would be the fastest one to draw, but effective on only one or two Keepers.

Flashbomb: For its effect on undead and complete disintegration, I'd have to say there's an alchemical substance involved.

Platinumoxicity

01-28-2010, 09:11 PM

Flashbomb: As we can see on the Thief 2 intro, the flashbomb is an electromechanical device that generates a powerful electric spark inside, using some sort of capacitor.

jtr7

01-28-2010, 09:21 PM

Yep. Push the red button and throw it down. The substance inside, if not a weird flashbulb-like device as for an old camera, ignites, and the two big lenses throw the light in 360°.

Perhaps whatever it is that constitutes positive Builder magic bursts forth like anti-necromatter.

DJ Riff

01-29-2010, 12:42 AM

Perhaps whatever it is that constitutes positive Builder magic bursts forth like anti-necromatter.

I do remember there's some scroll or tip telling that zombies are vulnerable to any bursts of light, not only flashbomb. I think a flash destroys the link to some evil magic that keep zombie moving. The puff we see is that evil energy inside the zombie becomes chaotic.

jtr7

01-29-2010, 12:49 AM

Besides it being an obvious hint about flashbombs, it says:

"The undead are rumored to be damaged by sudden flashes of bright light."

If only lightning would suffice.

Loup

01-30-2010, 01:03 PM

I'd go for the alchemical theory with a mechanical primer mechanism. That or the zombies would actually collapse by a simple thunder storm.