The Symbolism , Art and Drama of Kane & Lynch : Dead Men ...

[gnrGrievous]

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Kane & Lynch : Dead Men was released Two Years Ago , November 14th in North America , November 23rd in Europe and December 6th in 2007 (and July 2008 in Japan but let's not go there) ...
So , not being sure which day seems more appropriate to post what it is that i'm writing , i picked today , November 12th to have a discussion on the Symbolism , the Art and perhaps even the Message of this personnal favorite game of mine , two years after its release (more importantly i think it was about time a discussion like this would be had , after two years and pratically no one started a thread like this , common , shame on us all ...)

What i am writing here is the overall explanation i'm giving as to why i've always praised Kane & Lynch's story so much , i'm not going to discuss about the gameplay mechanics and such , only to talk about the storyline meaning the characters , the plot , the reasoning behind their actions and so on ... However i'm pretty sure i will miss quite a few interesting points as i have a tendency to forget things that i thought about , so feel free to add them ...

Note : I am still not going to talk about Lynch's flashback , it is still the most confusing aspect in the game to me and since almost none of you really played the co-op , there's no reason for me to talk about something you've never seen/heard ...
Another Note : Since i'm going to talk about My interpretation of the game , there's a huge chance that what i'll be saying are just things the developpers never intended to express in the first place , chances are if one of the folks from IO Interactive (or any of you guys for that matter) reads this topic he or she will be saying that i'm nuts , and then laugh , and i'll probably laugh with them ... Because the point is this is My point of view on the game , and i'm just saying this now to celebrate the two year anniversary of the game , so ... have fun ... or you can just skip the reading and head over to the mini-bar over there for some drinks and muffins ...
Yet Another Note : With the exception of three , all of the screenshots of the game i posted here all come from a french site , so don't mind the subtitles showing a language you don't understand , i just didn't found another site with the "images" i wanted ...
Last Note : The 'bulk' of this article was written , believe it or not , a day before the Dog Days Teaser was released , so i had no idea our dramatic protagonnists were going to be chased by a dog , running naked ... but that shouldn't change too much from what i've written about the first game , but still , try not to think of the Teaser when reading this ...

Anywya ... Here we go ...
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Oh wait , one second ... !!! SPOILER WARNING !!! ...
(yeah two years later most people who wanted to play the game would have already played it and knows the story , but i know someone's Still going to crucify me if i didn't put a warning , anywya ...)

"The Public's reaction ..."

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The praises and controversy of Dead Men were a mess really , there were those who praised the game's storyline for being 'gritty' and 'different' , and there were those who criticized it for having a 'excessive' use of profanity , but here's the funny part : the biggest controversy the game had was over ... A Review Score ... and the firing of a video game journalist 'conspiracy' ...
Now unless people are really missing the damn point of the sheer brutality and violence of the game OR the developers succeeded in proving something ... "deep down we are all violent psychopaths/people" ...
Let me remind you that this is a game where within the first five minutes you see a cop , a representitive of the Law , who gets strangled by his own shotgun before having his skull smashed by the rifle's butt ... Within the first five minutes in the game , hell what am i talking about , within the First Minute in the game if you don't count the introduction cinematic , the main menu and the loading screen , within the first minute there is one dead cop ... and no one really seems to notice it/give a damn about it ...
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I mean we live in a age where a having virtual sex mini game is called 'Outrageous !' from all over the board , but one dead cop within the first minute of a game and no one seems to be offended ... Plus we're talking about a non-corrupt police officer , unlike that 'crime simulator' game where every cop happens to be on the take , here we got ourselves a game where you end up shooting three hundred officers of the law and no one seems to have a problem with it ...
There's a certain logic within this society that i just fail to understand , and speaking of which , Kane & Lynch : Dead Men happens to be a critic against society ... let's dig a bit deeper ...

"God , Religion , and the Dead Men ..."

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Christian Religion and Greek Mythology is a theme that IO has delt alot with , starting from the Hitman series : Codename 47 was in the end , a story about a man who killed his 'fathers' and his 'maker' ... Silent Assassin begins and ends in a Church , with the overall message being that for a creature like Agent 47 , despite being in some way a children of God , he cannot find the same peace/salvation that all man are striving for , and is forced to live the life of a hitman and never stop killing ... Blood Money , well , if you all finished the game , you're bound to know it ...
And here comes Kane & Lynch , the biggest of them all puts Greek Mythology into the mix : starting from the beginning , a man (Kane) is waiting to die , but then he gets dragged out from his fate and gets another 'Trial' this time by four olympian gods (The7) who are led by the one who just happens to have a beard (The Older Brother) , just like Zeus himself ... In some way , The Older Brother is judging Kane and giving him a second chance just like what Zeus/God did most of the time with the mortals , and let's not forget the way The Older Brother says to Kane "I treated you like a Son" , i doubt this was just a coincidence ...
The whole religious theme and symbolism can be seen from then on throughout the game : look at Kane's name , it's just like "Cain" the first murderer , and look at his real name , "Adam" Marcus ... look at the bank's vault from the top of the stairs after it's been blown up , with the red carpet looks like a mouth to hell ... look at the long , empty and endless highways when Lynch and Kane were chased by the cops ... look at the madness that is the Mizuki night club ,
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and imagine if Retomoto was actually the Devil himself (he does have an office and acts like a business man) ... look at the construction site where Kane was to be executed , the size of the grave and the burning yet beautiful sky on top of it ... look at the name and description of the achievment for killing the truck driver , 'Behemoth : Stop the roaring Beast'... look at the prison hallways with messages saying such as "Make Better Decisions" ...
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Look at the wall in the prison yard , look at those drawings of Mary and Jesus (also seen in the begining of Freedom Fighter chapter) ... look at the firefight against the two masked gunmen of The7 inside El Capitolio , they're like cerberus dogs guarding an entrance ... look at the final act in the game , deep in the jungle , deep in the place where civilisation doesn't rule ...
http://img.jeuxactu.com/datas/images/jeux/Kane_amp_Lynch__Dead_Men/screenshots/xl/1195516225-13.jpg Last but not least , the final chapter has you to run to the burning church on top of the hill , before being forced to run back down to the pier and escape on a boat to drift away in the heart of darkness ...
I guess there was nothing more symbolic than a burning church to show that God still denies peace and redemption to Kane and Lynch , and i guess there was also nothing more satisfying than to see God punishing Shelly by blowing him up , but there you have it , if even God denies them everything , how would these two people ever be saved ? ... But wait , why do they need to be saved again ? ...

"The Traitor and the Traitors ..."

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While society sentenced Kane to death for killing twenty five Venezuelian citizens , The7 , Jenny and even Lynch sees that the biggest fault he has ever done was being a Traitor ... and this is where the interesting part begins , while it is true that we see Kane 'leaving people behind' (the vaultbreaker and his driver , and also the Helicopter Escape ending) , it is note worthy The7 themselves aren't so 'loyal' afterall ... The Brothers did left Carlos to fend for himself when Kane's militia stormed Havana , and later Carlos himself did betray Kane and his Dead Men when they reached the hacienda (though luckily , his death did allowed Kane to put the mine into good use) ... this raises the question , what was it that Kane done that was so horrible that no one wants to forgive him ? The7 are all merciless thugs in the end so betrayal only seems to matter when it puts the majority in danger ... Lynch sees Kane more of a heartless man so we'll skip that for now ... Jenny and Kane's wife accuses him of making their life hell by first abandonning them when their boy died and now making them pay for his wrong doings ...
If we take a moment and remove all the huge details (mercenary organisation , dead children , etc) but keep the basic outline (man betrays and makes mistakes that endanger his loved ones) , does this seem so unfamiliar ? don't we all at one point in our lives make mistakes ? don't we all at one point in our lives tries to 'fix things' but fail to succeed ? and lastly , don't we all once tried to apologise to someone we care , but always gets rejected in the end ? ...
Kane or rather , Adam Marcus , was about nineteen years old when he was a father , the death of his son a few years later didn't help , he was a young man and he was afraid , so he tried to get away from this life and start another which seemed to be 'made' for him ... but let's stop here and ask ourselves what kind of a society can even allow a mercenary oraganisation exist ? and in what right does the society have to condemn a man for joining such organization when he was lost , alone and helpless ? ... am i saying that Kane had the right to kill people ? no , but such a imperfect society shouldn't be allowed to go unnoticed either ...
We often have a image that there is the good and there is the evil , because it's not easy to say that there is the evil and there is the even more evil ... now i'm not saying that society is evil (even though there are quite a lot of sick people living in it as the Hitman games taught us) , i'm saying that it isn't because a society executes a mass murderer should equal end of story , no , society has a job to cleanse it all and make sure that men such as Adam Marcus would never have to become Kane ...
Kane is no super human , he's like you and me and that was the point , if a man who lived through tragic events can end up a mass murderer then yes , there is a real problem in this society ...

"The 'Other' kind of people ..."

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(This shot alone screams Art , too bad it wasn't in the game ...)
Then we have Lynch ... he too made mistakes in his life ... if you include being schizophrenic a 'mistake' ... sure , he killed his wife (more on that later) , sure , being 'different' doesn't allow you to kill people , but what the hell is he doing in a prison in the first place ? and for four years i might add ... we would expect him to be treated in a hospital , or at least locked up in a asylum , but no he got locked up with every other criminal in town , no wonder his temper seems so unstable , that extra four years of dealing with punks made him even more aggressive than he already is ... the excuse society might have is that they were planning to execute him anywya , so four more years with other inmates won't change a thing , he will still die ... well we all know how that turned out , one extra menace for society to deal with ...
Lynch was always keeping himself in control by taking pills , if that didn't seem odd enough to you , know this , he hasn't got enough pills (later in the game Kane made a potion for Lynch , when asked if it does works , Lynch replies "Just makes me care less ...")... though i wouldn't exactly blame society here for not being able to make life easier for Lynch , consider his story as a metaphor just like Kane , leave out the huge details (schizophrenia , anger management) and keep the basic outlines and what do we have ? ...
One man who is taking pills in order to be 'normal' ... doesn't that sound familiar ? haven't we all tried to fit in to a particular group ? haven't we all sacrificed a piece of our identity just to be accepted by the others ? ...
And while we're at it , how many people know what 'schizophrenia' is ? most people still thinks schizophrenics are just 'violent people' so how do you expect them to help ? how is society going to help people if they don't even understand their problems ? ... in fact the game does it wonderfully near the end of chapter four "Crakin' Up" when Kane asks Lynch "So what's the deal , you just get violent every now and then ?" to which Lynch replies "It's a little more complicated then That" (also note that 'schizophrenic' was never mentionned in the Game itself or even in the trailers , all that was said was that "I(Lynch) Have My Issues" and that he is a medicated psychopath (which definitely has got nothing to do with schizophrenia) ...
I remember reading a article two years ago when IO said that the inspiration for the characters came mostly from the real lives of real people who would talk about it in bars , it's not hard to believe really , some issues in life just can't be 'fixed' ...
Perhaps i'm taking this a bit too far , but from what i see the mind of these two men's story is this : Why do we , individuals of this society , have to be living in fear just because we're different ? ... Lynch and Kane may not be so different , they both have 'some sort of' feelings afterall , they both try to be at peace with themselves , they both look for forgiveness ... God denied them , society want them dead , there ain't much for them to turn for help ... as they're all pretty much dead now ...

"Love Hurts ..."

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Men are ... strange creatures , there's no doubt about it ... when we were boys we practically didn't like girls , then in less than a decade the boys , now young teenagers , can't seem to think of anything other than girls ... then later on , when the teenagers becomes men and reaching a state of maturity as well , they began to understand what it is to love , and have this Need to love and be loved ...
Oh rest assured i'm not going to insinuate that Dead Men is a love story as well , no i'm talking about this feeling of Needing the love and care of another human being , despite the stereotypical image of men being stronger than women , men are deep down quite fragile and needs the comfort of the women (and by comfort i mean warm feelings , not whatever it is that you are thinking ... argh , whatever , think what you want) ...
So it was no surprise that Kane's (the male) journey was to give his letter (make contact) to his daughter Jenny (to the female) ... what ? did you thought this was just the story of two psychotic men going on a rampage , defying society , looking for revenge ? sure it is , but in the end , it is still about a man trying to apologise to a woman and be forgiven in return , for Kane anywya , that was his plan : find his daughter , kill all possible source of threat , apologise to her , be forgiven , earning a sense of redemtion , and then die , being at peace with himself ... well unfortunately , or rather , Fortunately For the Sake of the Drama , Jenny dies , and now Kane can't be forgiven ...
Lynch's relationship with women is a bit ... different ...
Unlike Kane , Lynch doesn't have any 'love' ones to care since his wife died , adding that the four years in jail thinking of the horror that he has done , killing the one who loved him , it really is no surprise why he is always in a bad temper , and maybe , it'll explain why he's always impatient or downright merciless with the other women : Yoko is a good example , but i was thinking more about his constant hallucinations that you can see in co-op , you all know that his hallucinations basically consist of him seeing civilians dressed as cops holding smgs and some of them having a strange pig head , right ? well , i've noticed something rather peculiar ... almost everytime he hallucinates , the cops all happen to be , well , women ... and most surprising of all , everytime i saw a pig headed cop , it's on the body of a female person ...
"It's easy , he hates women , that's why" some might say , but i doubt it , i believe that those pig headed women are actually symbolising his wife , or rather what he has done to her (he did it beat her to death with blunt instruments) , in short Lynch hates himself for what he has done , and the image of his dead Annie is going to haunt him for the rest of his life , he can't stop thinking about it and he knows it ... and don't tell me you never go berzerk when someone or something reminds you of the mistake you've done/regrets you have ...
There's a scene in the game , which i think it has to be my favorite , it's in the "Crakin' Up" chapter when they got to the tunnel at the begining , after they got out of the van and shot the cops following them , one of them who was a woman would (almost all the time) get shot in the stomach , making her begging for mercy on the floor , saying that she has a baby daughter ... you can then hear two shots and two shotgun shells falling to the floor followed by a cold silence ... what was even more superbly done is that this scene was all in game , it wasn't a cinematic , meaning it is possible to miss it completely if you killed the cops yourself or quickly orderer Lynch to go away , but otherwise , that moment when i hear Lynch blasting her away , shutting up her plea for mercy , that was just ... heavy ...
You could say that in some way Lynch is a foreshadowing of what Kane will become , a man who hates himself and has no way out of this mess ...

"Kane & Lynch : The Lost & Damned ..."

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The world is therefor not perfect , as individuals such a Lynch and Kane have to resolve into a life of endless crime and hatred just because there's nothing that can save them , forgive them , bring peace upon their souls ... oh yes , death , death always seems to be the solution , but we're talking about two people who above all else "just can't seem to die" , meaning it's their punishement to live on forever like this , alone in the heart of darkness : the last shot of the game was rather clear , they were meant to be drifting in a river , but why was the river shaped like a sphere ? why is it all pitch black ? where exatcly are they ? in hell ? on earth ? somewhere in between ? ...
Throughout the game everytime Lynch and Kane reaches a high ground they're always heading back down , or if they're starting from a low ground , they're bound to reach for a high ground before back down again ... it's this constant rise and fall that shows the madness within their lives , they can't stay still as no where ever seems right for them : the scaffholding in the mall , the vault deep in the bank , the retomoto tower and the streets of tokyo (from the top of the world to the carnage on earth) , the jungle was always about getting deeper into the wilderness , and of course the church (a burning church no less) on top of the hill ...
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Ah , so is it because they have difficult lives that makes them a menace to society ? ... well , if the answer is 'yes' , then society is the greatest failure man has ever accomplished ...
When the game came out i remember alot of reviewers criticized on how all the npc in the game all look alike , i believe that they've once again missed the point ... the game was suppose to focus on the 'individuality' of Lynch and Kane , it was a way to show that these two people Are Not Part of the Mass , if all the npc had different faces and clothes , our protagonnist couldn't really stand out from the crowd could they ? ...
But what does that this all mean ? what is it that IO Interactive wanted to show ? did they just made a game with the sole purpose to bash mankind as a whole and praise those that are 'different' ? ...
And now for the big surprise ... look at us , look at us fans of James Lynch and Adam Marcus ... we are feeling sorry for two mass murderers , criminals , thieves , psychopaths with a conscience ... That ... wasn't suppose to happen ...

"The Greatest are the Worst ..."

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Right from the start we knew that these two men were guilty for their crimes , and they were going to die , like most of those people will be , but then we've been embarked into a journey to kill hundreds if not thousands of other people , with most of them being just non-evil ... these two men are not heroes , they're not even anti heroes , they're bad people , they're not innocent citizens on the run , one is doing hit and runs because he's having fun and while the other will kill just about every damn baby seal just to be able to earn HIS redemption , to atone for the mistake of HIS own selfishness ...
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Lynch and Kane may not be evil rapists , but that don't make them saints either , yet IO has done where none of the other developpers had achieved : while in the Hitman games you knew you were killing people who were all Vice-incarnated , and while in that other "cop killing" game you end up always playing as a good guy in a bad man's game , here we have Dead Men , where one is killing people just because they all happen to stand on his way to salvation , and the reason he seek salvation is because he just can't deal with the mistake of his life , while the other joins in the killing spree just because he has got nothing else to do , the result is perhaps the highest body count i've seen in a non-war game shooter , along with a overall story that toys with your conscience ... i mean if you've read this far you've definitily read all of the above , you know that the game is trying to explain to you why Lynch and Kane are unhappy people , but now we're feeling sorry for them , and tell me , is it right ? is it right to feel sorry for them ? ... I honnestly don't know ... because we've could have done the same if we were in their situation ...
Nevermind Kane has a huge scar and Lynch is schizophrenic , if we've had lived their lives , we probably would have done the same ...
Then again no , maybe if we were them , we never would have mess up in the first place , perhaps unlike Kane we know how to "deal with it" , and unlike Lynch we know how not to get attracted to killing sprees ...
Then again ... maybe a lot of other people just can't always do the right thing ... it isn't such a easy thing either to choose between your own personnal needs and what is best for all of us , must we be selfish and blame the world for our wrong doings or stay proud of our differences and reject the masses or just die now ... afterall this is a cruel world , if you can't find your happiness , or worst , if you've lost your happiness ... what else is there to do ? ...

"Dog Days ? When is it going to end then ? ..."

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Does Kane & Lynch need a sequel ? that's the question we have to ask because what else is there to tell ? ... The message of Dead Men was this : We've spent the last seven hours showing you these two men , violent , unstable , but deep down they are human beings like you and me , they've made mistakes and now they want to be forgiven , they kill people because they haven't got any other option to reach their goal , but the question is not "Will they ever find redemtion and be at peace with themselves ?" , but rather "Do they DESERVE redemption ?" ...
Can we ever forgive Lynch and Kane ? God didn't (but then again he moves in mysterious ways) , but what about us ? should we forgive them out of pity ? out of sympathy ? should we forgive them because we see alot of ourselves in them ? (or was it 'we see alot of them is us' , i don't know , i forgot) ...

"Alright stop this ... This is getting rather silly ..."

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I do often ask myself if indeed i'm not looking too much at things , finding meanings and questions in places where the original creator never intended to have (i'm still betting that IO is laughing at what i wrote)... but in any case Kane & Lynch : Dead Men did it , it made me question , it didn't exactly changed my life (well maybe it actually did , who knows ?) , but it did improved my view on things (no rest assured , i'm don't plan shooting up a mall ... and if i plan to , you're all invited) and most importantly it was the first game that ever made me want to look beyond the set pieces , the first game (yes , this is above all a Video Game)that made me think of the logic of action of these characters , not because what they did didn't made any sense , but rather "how is it that a man can do such things" ...
One of the 'magical' moments in this game is actually the decision you have to make in the chapter "Choice" ... this is the only time in the entire game where you have to make a decision that changes the outcome drastically ... but guess what ? it wasn't You the Player who was making a choice based on your own interest , it was Kane the character who was making one through you ... just look at it , what was the choices about ? either escape with Jenny leaving the others to die , or save the others and prove to Jenny you're not a traitor ... in both situations , the choice you will take will be based on which advantage Kane wants to gain , not You ... if you escape it's because Kane wants to get away with Jenny , if you go to the village it's because Kane wants to show his daughter that his father isn't a traitor/the worst person on earth , almost every game these days grants you the ability to make a 'decision' but none had this kind of impact , in the other games it was You the player who was making the decisions , in here , you're making a decision based on what is the more 'profitable' for Kane and not for you...
Simply put , (and before you start throwing rocks at me for completly omitting the so called 'gameplay issues') Kane & Lynch : Dead Men was a piece of "art" because it does things in total subtlety : the locations , the character drama , the symbolism , all that is there in the game for Us the player to see but it never Forces Us to see it ... this isn't one of those game who practically puts a big red arrow in front it saying "it's got color/drama so it's art !" , no , Dead Men blend itself into the mass market of video game shooters ... look at the trailers , look at all its intense non stop violence , then load up the game , listen to the music on the main menu , this game lets You see it for its own artistic merits , it never forces you to acknowledge the drama , it lets You see it for yourself , which is what a work of art is suppose to be , a subject that can allow us to reflect it on our own lives and experience ...
But then i find myself rather ... lonely ... when praising the game like this ...
What will people remember of Kane & Lynch : Dead Men ? will they remember it as the game that supposely got a journalist fired ? will they remember it as the game that wasn't on par with its other releases ? and what of the Story of Dead Men ? ... The highest praise the story got was from Gametrailers where they gave it a nine out of ten in the review and even nominated it for best story of 2007 , but why the high praises ? was it for the deep moral questionning of the characters or was it because it had lots of interesting action sequences tied up together with a revenge tale ? ... most of the people who enjoyed Kane & Lynch was because it made them feel like 'gangstas' , and not for the sake of the drama ... will Dead Men ever earn the merit it deserves ? in a century maybe ? like most artist from before , their work was only recognized when their bones went to dust ...
Then again it makes me laugh seeing all these people , both gamers and developers stating that "the day when video games will be recognized as a form of art is coming !" ... it makes me laugh because , well , Will they be able to tell from themselves what a work of art is or not ? ...
Or perhaps it is me who is just ... wrong ? what if i just have a odd taste in art and game ? you've seen which games i like and which i don't in that month old topic , you know i don't understand why critics gave high praises to that 'flamethrower not included crime game' calling it a "Oscar Caliber Script" , you know i don't understand why thousands of people says that the japanese dude (who created a character whose name makes us think of a male body part) is the greatest storyteller who ever stepped on earth ... you know i didn't like that game of the year of 2007 , the one with lots of big words like "capitalism" and "free market" and a absurd third act that no critic ever seem to complain ... or that other game of the year of 2007 , where most critics call its storyline "pure art" even though it had no story ... that one really took the cake ...
*sigh* ...
But here's to IO Interactive ...
*raise glasses* ...
Who had the unfortunate luck of having me , a forum user with too much time on it hands , to give the highest praise (up to the point of madness/absurdity maybe)to this fine game ...
And here's to the future , where hopefully you would never turn any future Kane & Lynch project into a comedy ...
Long Live The Drama ! ...
And Happy Two Years , Kane & Lynch : Dead Men ! ...
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[Falkenwut]

:scratch:......
too bad people won't be seeing too much from your point of view.

Thanks for clearing up what you meant though. I didn't read it all to be honest but I guess I see your point.

The only drama I enjoyed is the originality of the plot! I mean there aren't many action movies with this kinda of drama! Or at least this enjoyable :lmao:

EDIT: If you want art - look for the game called "The path"... The owners make interactive art (not really games..)

EDIT: Shelly is killed only by chance. in the final moment he runs, there is no trigger for him to die (unlike jenny). His survival depends on how lucky his AI is.

[Kent-45]

The praises and controversy of Dead Men were a mess really , there were those who praised the game's storyline for being 'gritty' and 'different' , and there were those who criticized it for having a 'excessive' use of profanity , but here's the funny part : the biggest controversy the game had was over ... A Review Score ... and the firing of a video game journalist 'conspiracy' ...
Now unless people are really missing the damn point of the sheer brutality and violence of the game OR the developers succeeded in proving something ... "deep down we are all violent psychopaths/people" …

I don't necessarily think that the game explores the idea of violent psychopathic behavior in us all, so much as it explores the dynamic of what happens when “a lot of bad people doing bad ****” and most of all: revenge - If you look at every character you meet along this story, every one of them has got their own set of problems. From the safecracker's alcoholic past to Lynch's insanity, to Kane's treacherous past. I think the game explores the concepts of flawed individuals. It wants to remind us in a significant way that these are not pristine people we're dealing with. It wants to show us that not a single one of these bastards is innocent or worthy of redemption. In this way, I think Kane & Lynch really strikes a niche for itself in an otherwise oversaturated “crime genre” market. Kane & Lynch are not your typical anti-heroes by any stretch, but on the same side of that coin... they are a distinctly different kind of evil than the people they are up against. The game makes this distinction very subtle, but it's there. Lynch's crimes and Kane's mistakes are evil and reprehensible, but they dwarf in comparison to the alluded indiscretions of the people they are fighting. The7 is clearly a violent organization, that would kidnap someone's family, and employs the services of psychopaths (Mute, Little Brother...) and this is no better or worse than Kane & Lynch's own flaws, but it's a different kind of evil and the game flirts with the notion of this... almost teasing us with it. The major theme of the game is definitely revenge.

If you look throughout the game, revenge is a recurring theme over and over. The7 want revenge against Kane, Kane & Lynch want revenge against The7 for ******* them over. Retomoto wants revenge after his daughter is killed, and Kane executes revenge against both Retomoto and the mercenary of The7 that broke his nose not 5 minutes into the game. What's the point here? The game is exploring the dynamic of revenge. Everyone wants revenge, and this revenge is sort of a manifestation of the characters' desire to maintain some sort of twisted balance in the Kane & Lynch universe. All these characters are looking for balance. Lynch wants to know whether he was framed for killing his wife, Kane wants to be forgiven by his daughter, The7 want their money back... All these motives are simplistic, and the game makes no qualms about this. This is no Tom Clancy novel. In many ways these characters are almost sub-human in their desires, and the way they rationalize the world around them.

I mean we live in a age where a having virtual sex mini game is called 'Outrageous !' from all over the board , but one dead cop within the first minute of a game and no one seems to be offended ... Plus we're talking about a non-corrupt police officer , unlike that 'crime simulator' game where every cop happens to be on the take , here we got ourselves a game where you end up shooting three hundred officers of the law and no one seems to have a problem with it ...
There's a certain logic within this society that i just fail to understand , and speaking of which , Kane & Lynch : Dead Men happens to be a critic against society ... let's dig a bit deeper ...

Yes, I agree. I think Kane & Lynch does serve as a critique for our society. If you look at the police officers in this game, they are not so much characters as they are obstances in Kane & Lynch's way toward their real goals (The7) – Every single police officer is nondescript, and has very little spoken dialogue beyond a few phrases. The game uses violence against police officers to really show the indifference of these characters to the law, and the rules of society. In this way, the game is criticizing society because if you look at Kane, Lynch, The7, and Retomoto... all these people seem to operate above society. Retomoto conducts business in a lofty skycraper in Tokyo, The7 are a subversive and secretive organization with their hands in everything. These people operate on their own terms, they have their own methods and concepts of justice/punishment (The7 taking Kane's family; Retomoto cutting Kane's face, and vice versa) – The police in this game are literally dehumanized, just like all of the other nondescript NPC characters that run away and scream when you open fire. These are literally two realities spilling into eachother, and the chaos that results when that happens. Kane & Lynch are clearly in their own world, and their world is very volatile and destructive. Even as Kane seems to show some hints of remorse, this is the world that he is confined to. He doesn't know how to do it any other way. These characters live and die by the gun, and the police are not actual people to them, they are just obstacles in their way.

Christian Religion and Greek Mythology is a theme that IO has delt alot with , starting from the Hitman series : Codename 47 was in the end , a story about a man who killed his 'fathers' and his 'maker' ... Silent Assassin begins and ends in a Church , with the overall message being that for a creature like Agent 47 , despite being in some way a children of God , he cannot find the same peace/salvation that all man are striving for , and is forced to live the life of a hitman and never stop killing ... Blood Money , well , if you all finished the game , you're bound to know it ...
And here comes Kane & Lynch , the biggest of them all puts Greek Mythology into the mix : starting from the beginning , a man (Kane) is waiting to die , but then he gets dragged out from his fate and gets another 'Trial' this time by four olympian gods (The7) who are led by the one who just happens to have a beard (The Older Brother) , just like Zeus himself ... In some way , The Older Brother is judging Kane and giving him a second chance just like what Zeus/God did most of the time with the mortals , and let's not forget the way The Older Brother says to Kane "I treated you like a Son" , i doubt this was just a coincidence ...
The whole religious theme and symbolism can be seen from then on throughout the game : look at Kane's name , it's just like "Cain" the first murderer , and look at his real name , "Adam" Marcus ... look at the bank's vault from the top of the stairs after it's been blown up , with the red carpet looks like a mouth to hell ... look at the long , empty and endless highways when Lynch and Kane were chased by the cops ... look at the madness that is the Mizuki night club.

Again you are right. I don't know if the symbolism here is intentional though, so I don't want to speculate... however I will say that Kane & Older Brother definitely have a very “fatherly” relationship. Older Brother treats Kane harshly, but he exercises restraint. He is stern with Kane, as an annoyed father would be with a disobedient child. Kane betrayed him, but at the same time, Older Brother can't bring himself to just kill Kane on the spot. He is like a father figure to Kane, and Kane clearly respects him... but would have no qualms about killing him. That's the underlying theme of the entire relationship. Save for some exceptions, Kane respects The7 (even though he may hate them) and The7 seem to respect Kane in the way that they treat him (even when he's their captive)

While society sentenced Kane to death for killing twenty five Venezuelian citizens , The7 , Jenny and even Lynch sees that the biggest fault he has ever done was being a Traitor ... and this is where the interesting part begins , while it is true that we see Kane 'leaving people behind' (the vaultbreaker and his driver , and also the Helicopter Escape ending) , it is note worthy The7 themselves aren't so 'loyal' afterall ... The Brothers did left Carlos to fend for himself when Kane's militia stormed Havana , and later Carlos himself did betray Kane and his Dead Men when they reached the hacienda (though luckily , his death did allowed Kane to put the mine into good use) ... this raises the question , what was it that Kane done that was so horrible that no one wants to forgive him ? The7 are all merciless thugs in the end so betrayal only seems to matter when it puts the majority in danger ... Lynch sees Kane more of a heartless man so we'll skip that for now ... Jenny and Kane's wife accuses him of making their life hell by first abandonning them when their boy died and now making them pay for his wrong doings …

Again, this all goes to my aforementioned statement that Kane & Lynch and The7 are operating in their own underworld of sorts. They all have “currency” that they trade in, and that currency is defined as loyalty. Kane's betrayal is considered more heinous than anything they may have done, simply for the fact that there is an explicit honor among thieves (which doesn't seem to be practiced throughout, but it's still emphasized) - The standards by which Kane are judged are subjective. The7 are judges, jury, and executioner... and likewise, Kane becomes judge, jury, and executioner when he takes things into his own hands. It's not so much about the truth at all, which is why a lot of people don't understand what this game is trying to say. It's got nothing to do with the truth at all, and there's so much doubt brought into question what happened in Venezuela. The7 says Kane left them to burn, and Kane denies it. It doesn't really matter what really happened, all that matters is the actions that these two forces employ to dispense their own personal justice on eachother.

Kane's family is something that I don't want to delve into, because there isn't that much information about it that has been officially confirmed by IOInteractive and I don't like to speculate too openly. However I think that Kane's family, specifically his wife, are pretty much Kane's last ties to “life” of sorts. Kane is a dead man. In fact, they're all dead men. The concept of a dead man is more or less someone that doesn't hold any value for the traditional things that our society places importance on. Disregard for human life, makes you a dead man. All these people are essentially “dead” to themselves, and most of all, dead to society. They have deviated so much from society that they can no longer call themselves part of it. Kane's family is no exception. It's literally a part of Kane's life that has seemingly persisted (albeit horribly) despite his transition into this criminal underworld that he now exists in. Throughout the game, Kane idealizes Jenny and his family... despite the fact that both of them are destroyed, more or less by his own hands. He is almost in denial, and Kane exhibits very odd behavior when confronted by them. When confronted by Lynch, or The7... Kane always responds defensively. “The **** I did!” he says when Lynch asks if he stole the money. However when his wife accuses him of destroying the family, he still responds with apologies and this sort of undying love than his usuall defensiveness. His daughter Jenny repeatedly wishes he was dead, accuses him of being a traitor, and all sorts of negative ****... and Kane sort of takes it in stride. He's never angry or defensive with his family, much in the opposite way he is furious with Lynch when he ****s up. I think the concept here is the Kane's family isn't really “real” to him. It's part of his past that he only really remembers in an idealized way, not the way it actually was. Simply put, in Kane's twisted logic... he and his family could still live happily ever after. Kane is pretty delusional thoughout the game, and it's one of the few actual moments of vulnerability that Kane seems to exhibit.

If we take a moment and remove all the huge details (mercenary organisation , dead children , etc) but keep the basic outline (man betrays and makes mistakes that endanger his loved ones) , does this seem so unfamiliar ? don't we all at one point in our lives make mistakes ? don't we all at one point in our lives tries to 'fix things' but fail to succeed ? and lastly , don't we all once tried to apologise to someone we care , but always gets rejected in the end ? ...
Kane or rather , Adam Marcus , was about nineteen years old when he was a father , the death of his son a few years later didn't help , he was a young man and he was afraid , so he tried to get away from this life and start another which seemed to be 'made' for him ... but let's stop here and ask ourselves what kind of a society can even allow a mercenary oraganisation exist ? and in what right does the society have to condemn a man for joining such organization when he was lost , alone and helpless ? ... am i saying that Kane had the right to kill people ? no , but such a imperfect society shouldn't be allowed to go unnoticed either ...

Kane's mistakes are not so much the complaint here. In fact Kane doesn't feel regret whatsoever. He's on death row, about to die, and he realizes that he must account for the way he has lived his life. This takes the form of a letter to Jenny. Kane could care less about forgiveness or redemption, for he knows those things will never come to him. All he really wants is his family to forgive him. Like I mentioned before, his family is essentially the door back to “normal society” that Kane wants to desperately go back through and rejoin the human race. This door, however, is closed shut forever. Kane is, and always will be, a dead man. Beyond his volatile delusions about rejoining or protecting his family, Kane is actually a very cold and calculating operator. He is not sorry for the people that he has hurt (save for his family) and he has no qualms inflicting violence on people. Like it or not, when Kane's boy died... he crossed over. Joining The7 was only Kane's way of embracing the underworld life that he had resigned himself to, and if he didn't like it, he sure hid it well... because he's a successful mercenary that seems to be able to avoid capture quite frequently. He kills cops, he cuts up Retomoto, and even beats down Mute with a shovel. The guy knows exactly who he is, and while he regrets what happened to his family, he clearly isn't phased by it. He doesn't seem to be phased by much of anything, except for his moment of extreme aggression when his wife dies.

We often have a image that there is the good and there is the evil , because it's not easy to say that there is the evil and there is the even more evil ... now i'm not saying that society is evil (even though there are quite a lot of sick people living in it as the Hitman games taught us) , i'm saying that it isn't because a society executes a mass murderer should equal end of story , no , society has a job to cleanse it all and make sure that men such as Adam Marcus would never have to become Kane ...
Kane is no super human , he's like you and me and that was the point , if a man who lived through tragic events can end up a mass murderer then yes , there is a real problem in this society ...

In Kane & Lynch, I don't think there is “good” and “evil” in the traditional sense at all. All there is are a bunch of forces, mostly negative mind you, that seem to be at odds with eachother for their own reasons. Morality is entirely subjective. You root for Kane & Lynch because their brand of evil is slightly more palletable than The7's or Retomoto's. Kane is the only character who even remotely seems to have motives that aren't driven by greed. Greed is a reccuring theme as well in this game, and I believe is the reason for all of this. Greed is the reason why organizations like The7 can flourish. Greed is why Retomoto does what he does. Greed and the desire for power are what these people want, and this is the currency that they trade in. This goes against what our idealized society would want, and as a result The7 seems very “otherworldly” … almost alien. All we know is that they are ominpresent, and that they are driven by greed and violence.

It all really goes to this idea that Kane & Lynch introduced of the “Dead Men” - These are not just targets for assassination by The7, the concept of the Dead Man is exactly what Kane is. A man who has lost everything, and disconnects himself from society through his violence and sheer deviation from what we see as right. Kane is a dead man. Lynch is a dead man. These are all dead men in that they have rejected what our society has to offer, and make their own way. One could argue that Kane died when his child died, and he crossed over. Did Kane have a choice? I'd say yes, but simply put... some people don't deal with loss very well. You lose something in your life, you have to fill it with something else. Kane lost a child, he filled that void with The7 and the pursuit of riches. He obviously cared enough about money to bring the rewards from the Venezuela job home with him, and it got him got, so Kane is no exception to this notion that the Dead Men are driven by greed. Everyone here is driven by money in one way or another. They money is the reason for all this violence and bloodshed, and the game explores this briefly. Did money create this evil though? No. I think evil existed before money existed, money just complements evil, and allows it to thrive. Kane, Lynch, and The7 are no exceptions to this simple fact.

Men are ... strange creatures , there's no doubt about it ... when we were boys we practically didn't like girls , then in less than a decade the boys , now young teenagers , can't seem to think of anything other than girls ... then later on , when the teenagers becomes men and reaching a state of maturity as well , they began to understand what it is to love , and have this Need to love and be loved ...
Oh rest assured i'm not going to insinuate that Dead Men is a love story as well , no i'm talking about this feeling of Needing the love and care of another human being , despite the stereotypical image of men being stronger than women , men are deep down quite fragile and needs the comfort of the women (and by comfort i mean warm feelings , not whatever it is that you are thinking ... argh , whatever , think what you want) ...
So it was no surprise that Kane's (the male) journey was to give his letter (make contact) to his daughter Jenny (to the female) ... what ? did you thought this was just the story of two psychotic men going on a rampage , defying society , looking for revenge ? sure it is , but in the end , it is still about a man trying to apologise to a woman and be forgiven in return , for Kane anywya , that was his plan : find his daughter , kill all possible source of threat , apologise to her , be forgiven , earning a sense of redemtion , and then die , being at peace with himself ... well unfortunately , or rather , Fortunately For the Sake of the Drama , Jenny dies , and now Kane can't be forgiven …

Actually, I tend to disagree a little bit. Kane & Lynch is almost neutral when it comes to sex or sexual references at all. In fact the only one that stands out is Lynch asking Kane, rather coyly, “So did ya bang her?” with regard to Kane's past relationship with Yoko. Beyond that, Kane & Lynch's world is a world almost completely devoid of love whatsoever. Jenny has nothing but disdain for her father, and Kane's wife has nothing but rage toward him for the choices he's made. If anything, I think this game is making a point that these Dead Men don't necessarily see women as equals at all. Women are hardly represented at all in this game, and I forgive me for the song lyric here but “it's a man's world” folks. I think the message here is that this world that Kane & Lynch live in his incapable of love. It simply can't sustain it. The world they choose to live in is so violent and driven by greed that any hope of a loving relationship is impossible. Kane's relationship with his wife has withered and died, and he slowly comes to terms with that (way too late, I might add) but the theme here is simply that love cannot grow or survive in this criminal underworld that they live in. The closest thing we see to love is probably that of Kane toward his daughter, and once she dies, it's almost like a candle being snuffed out as they sail into the darkness. It's a metaphor alright. A metaphor for the real world. These are dead men, and one of the prices they pay for the life they live is that of living a loveless life.

Lynch's relationship with women is a bit ... different ...
Unlike Kane , Lynch doesn't have any 'love' ones to care since his wife died , adding that the four years in jail thinking of the horror that he has done , killing the one who loved him , it really is no surprise why he is always in a bad temper , and maybe , it'll explain why he's always impatient or downright merciless with the other women : Yoko is a good example , but i was thinking more about his constant hallucinations that you can see in co-op , you all know that his hallucinations basically consist of him seeing civilians dressed as cops holding smgs and some of them having a strange pig head , right ? well , i've noticed something rather peculiar ... almost everytime he hallucinates , the cops all happen to be , well , women ... and most surprising of all , everytime i saw a pig headed cop , it's on the body of a female person ...
"It's easy , he hates women , that's why" some might say , but i doubt it , i believe that those pig headed women are actually symbolising his wife , or rather what he has done to her (he did it beat her to death with blunt instruments) , in short Lynch hates himself for what he has done , and the image of his dead Annie is going to haunt him for the rest of his life , he can't stop thinking about it and he knows it ... and don't tell me you never go berzerk when someone or something reminds you of the mistake you've done/regrets you have …

Lynch is definitely a bizarre case, and yes I've noticed the connection that is drawn in co-op how all the pig heads go on the female cops. I agree fully: Lynch hates women. Why does Lynch hate women? I am not sure. It's most certainly got something to do with the murder of his wife. I believe that Lynch's violence against women is a byproduct of his schizophrenia, just look in the mizuki club level... He is the first the punch Yoko, and Kane actually has to tell him to stop because he's about to take it too far. After he's done slugging Yoko, he gets defensive “I didn't even hit her that hard” and even goes so far as to say “Kidnapping and beating up women you must feel like a real big man Kane” - It's almost like he's had a complete memory lapse of the things that he does, or just doesn't want to accept them. Just before they are about to do the exchange with Retomoto, Lynch says to Yoko “It's just you and me, right?” - Lynch hates women, but at the same time he loved his wife very much and so you've got this love/hate dynamic going on with the way he treats women in this game. I don't know if this is intentional or not but this is the gist that I got from all this.

There's a scene in the game , which i think it has to be my favorite , it's in the "Crakin' Up" chapter when they got to the tunnel at the begining , after they got out of the van and shot the cops following them , one of them who was a woman would (almost all the time) get shot in the stomach , making her begging for mercy on the floor , saying that she has a baby daughter ... you can then hear two shots and two shotgun shells falling to the floor followed by a cold silence ... what was even more superbly done is that this scene was all in game , it wasn't a cinematic , meaning it is possible to miss it completely if you killed the cops yourself or quickly orderer Lynch to go away , but otherwise , that moment when i hear Lynch blasting her away , shutting up her plea for mercy , that was just ... heavy ...
You could say that in some way Lynch is a foreshadowing of what Kane will become , a man who hates himself and has no way out of this mess ...

I have seen this scene play out, and it's definitely partly scripted I think. However if I'm not mistaken, Lynch's AI is actually programmed to go out of his way to shoot incapacitated enemies... be they male or female. I've seen him do the same to wounded Cuban soldiers just as he does with wounded male cops. The game doesn't allow you to intervene, so it's implied that Kane allows Lynch to do this to the female cop... which tells me Kane doesn't care, and Lynch obviously doesn't care either. Again, it all goes toward this concept of dead men. Kane & Lynch are no longer “alive” in the sense that they have restraint, feelings, or remose for a lot of what they do.... and the things they do feel remorseful for is often illogical or backwards (Lynch flipping out and worried about how many hostages he killed, Kane feeling sorry for destroying his family) - and finally, you say that Kane hates himself and has no way out of this mess. Well I think this is only partly true. Kane probably hates himself, but in his mind, his “way out of this mess” is to kill The7 and restore some sort of balance to the universe. This is Kane's futile attempt to bring an end to the chaos, but Kane doesn't have the “tools” to accomplish this without hurting a whole lot of people and making things worse. This doesn't stop Kane from trying though, but the theme here is that Kane & Lynch are sort of like cavemen. Almost subhuman in their desires/motives and their disregard for complex society. They have these blunt objects (their violent ways) that they basically use to club through life indiscriminately. Why? Because all they know how to use is the blunt club. They don't have the complexity to solve problems any other way, it's all they know how to do. When Kane has a problem, he has a specific skillset of ways to deal with it... that said, there's a lot that Kane is clearly unprepared to deal with.

What strikes me as interesting is the role reversal that Kane & Lynch exhibit throughout the game. Kane is sold as the “calm rational professional” of the two from the get-go, and seems to follow that code rather well as Lynch has breakdown after breakdown, murdering hostages and having bouts of aggression. However there are distinct moments are Lynch, of all people, is actually the voice of reason between the two of them. As they're driving frantically through the jungle to catch up with The7's escape plane, Kane becomes furious with the driver as he gets lost “Will you just let the man drive, Kane?” Lynch says very calmly. This is only one example of this but it's permeated throughout the game. Lynch will often be the voice of reason, and Kane is the one wallowing in irrationality. As Kane breaks down after his wife is shot in front of him, Lynch screams at him to snap out of it. There is definitely a role reversal here, and it's not the case where Kane is always the rational one, and Lynch is the insane one. They seem to play off eachother, as one gets irrational... the other will always bring the irrationality back down to earth. Lynch actually has the most relevant observation at the end of the film “Didn't even ****in' help you should have taken the chopper.” (or something like that, I'm too lazy to look up the exact quote but you get the idea) - My point is that Lynch is a lot more “down to earth” than he's given credit for. He's marketed as this psycho so we expect him to be that way, but the reality is that when he's not in a blind rage, he's actually quite calm and rational.

The world is therefor not perfect , as individuals such a Lynch and Kane have to resolve into a life of endless crime and hatred just because there's nothing that can save them , forgive them , bring peace upon their souls ... oh yes , death , death always seems to be the solution , but we're talking about two people who above all else "just can't seem to die" , meaning it's their punishement to live on forever like this , alone in the heart of darkness : the last shot of the game was rather clear , they were meant to be drifting in a river , but why was the river shaped like a sphere ? why is it all pitch black ? where exatcly are they ? in hell ? on earth ? somewhere in between ? ...
Throughout the game everytime Lynch and Kane reaches a high ground they're always heading back down , or if they're starting from a low ground , they're bound to reach for a high ground before back down again ... it's this constant rise and fall that shows the madness within their lives , they can't stay still as no where ever seems right for them : the scaffholding in the mall , the vault deep in the bank , the retomoto tower and the streets of tokyo (from the top of the world to the carnage on earth) , the jungle was always about getting deeper into the wilderness , and of course the church (a burning church no less) on top of the hill ...

I think the message of the last scene in the game was simply that Kane & Lynch were still lost. It's the futility of it all. They embarked on this dangerous suicide mission to save Jenny, and Jenny still died anyway. It's a commentary on the fact that life isn't fair. That you can do everything right and still fail. It's clearly a metaphor for how lost Kane & Lynch are, even moreso than they were at the beginning of the game. The point is the futility of it all. They are right where they started, they didn't really move or accomplish anything at all. Everyone died for no reason at all. The message here is that even as Kane & Lynch's world is so destructive to everyone around them, the one thing that surpasses even them is the empty void of space. They are still subject to it's laws, and in that regard they are lost and helpless to it. They disregard society's laws, and are for the most part dead human beings... but all this “power” to take human life, and hurt people is still surpassed by this empty void. It's a simple analogy for the fact that Kane & Lynch will never be able to escape it, and that everything they have done up to this point (specifically Kane) was an attempt to escape something. Lynch wants to escape who he is, Kane wants to escape who he is, but they can't... they're stuck, riding down a dark river to wherever. I think Kane & Lynch seem to accept this in a sort of twisted way. There is no meaning to any of it, and there never was. People die for no reason, people get hurt for no reason, and none of it means anything. Kane & Lynch are right back where they started, if not even more lost than they were. It's definitely one of the bleakest endings that I've ever seen in a video game. It's clear that Kane & Lynch will not see redemption, not in this life or the next.

Ah , so is it because they have difficult lives that makes them a menace to society ? ... well , if the answer is 'yes' , then society is the greatest failure man has ever accomplished ...
When the game came out i remember alot of reviewers criticized on how all the npc in the game all look alike , i believe that they've once again missed the point ... the game was suppose to focus on the 'individuality' of Lynch and Kane , it was a way to show that these two people Are Not Part of the Mass , if all the npc had different faces and clothes , our protagonnist couldn't really stand out from the crowd could they ? ...
But what does that this all mean ? what is it that IO Interactive wanted to show ? did they just made a game with the sole purpose to bash mankind as a whole and praise those that are 'different' ? ...
And now for the big surprise ... look at us , look look at us fans of James Lynch and Adam Marcus ... we are feeling sorry for two mass murderers , criminals , thieves , psychopaths with a conscience ... That ... wasn't suppose to happen ...

I agree. Hitman Blood Money did the same thing. Every NPC looked the same and some people and I always thought that this was more of a commentary about the views of the protangonists. I think the fact that all the NPCs are so nondescript and look alike is sort of a metaphor for the indifference of Kane & Lynch. They don't see these as people, and they don't fit into society so why would they see society's participants as individuals? Shelly, Tharpa, Riffic, all these people have details because in a way they exist in Kane's world. The masses are so nondescript because Kane has disconnected himself from society, he doesn't associate or empathize with them anymore. His world is the world of The7, and everything else seems otherworldly.

And to respond to the last part. I don't think that Kane & Lynch have no conscience. Quite the opposite actually. They both have a twisted sense of right and wrong. Kane sees a lot of what Lynch does as messed up beyond words, and Lynch sees Kane as a cold heartless monster. In making these assesments, they are assuming a certain level of conscience. They are pointing out what they see as wrong, and therefore indicating that the opposite would be considered “right” to them. The problem is that their sense of right and wrong is very subjective, and them doing the “right thing” could still result in people getting killed and chaos everywhere. Their sense of right and wrong is no more right and wrong than The7's assertion that Kane is a traitor. It's just a bunch of people using their own flawed logic to make sense of an illogical world, and more often than not that results in violent conflict.

Right from the start we knew that these two men were guilty for their crimes , and they were going to die , like most of those people will be , but then we've been embarked into a journey to kill hundreds if not thousands of other people , with most of them being just non-evil ... these two men are not heroes , they're not even anti heroes , they're bad people , they're not innocent citizens on the run , one is doing hit and runs because he's having fun and while the other will kill just about every damn baby seal just to be able to earn HIS redemption , to atone for the mistake of HIS own selfishness ...

Again, you raise an interesting aspect of the game that I myself have pondered. What I find interesting is that these people are obviously guilty. (Lynch might not be, but I'd bet money he killed his wife) but despite this assumed guilt, they're all in denial. Kane insists he didn't steal anything or do anything wrong. Lynch insists that his wife was murdered by someone else and he was framed. It's almost like that they need this rationalization to function... because if they were to accept what they have done, they might not be able to deal with it. I think we all have a certain level of delusion when it comes to what we've done. We like to see ourselves as not in the wrong, and Kane & Lynch are no exception to this simple human behavior. However on that same token, I don't want to say that Kane & Lynch do not understand that what they've done isn't wrong – because that's not true. Lynch clearly understands what he has done to the hostages in the bank when he comes out of his daze is wrong, but seems to shrug it off as “I get violent and it's so horrible afterward” and Kane obviously sees what he's done in his life is wrong. He confesses to his daughter in his letter that what's she's read in the papers about him as a mercenary is “mostly true” and even states that “This afternoon I will pay for my crimes... it's only fair.” - They do have a sense of fairness, it's just that there's a component missing... they don't CARE that what they're doing is wrong. They see it as means to an end, and I honestly don't think they care. They have pretty much resigned themselves to die or at the very least live empty violent lives, so what's another 10 police officers on top of that? It couldn't matter to them even if they wanted it to. I don't think much of anything would really phase them, but they clearly have the cognitive ability to identify whether it was right and wrong. Does that make them more sophisticated than your average thug? Most people would say yes I guess. It's easier to empathize with someone to admits what they're doing is wrong and does it anyway than someone that does something wrong and honestly believes they're doing the right thing. So you be the judge.

Lynch and Kane may not be evil rapists , but that don't make them saints either , yet IO has done where none of the other developpers had achieved : while in the Hitman games you knew you were killing people who were all Vice-incarnated , and while in that other "cop killing" game you end up always playing as a good guy in a bad man's game , here we have Dead Men , where one is killing people just because they all happen to stand on his way to salvation , and the reason he seek salvation is because he just can't deal with the mistake of his life , while the other joins in the killing spree just because he has got nothing else to do , the result is perhaps the highest body count i've seen in a non-war game shooter , along with a overall story that toys with your conscience ... i mean if you've read this far you've definitily read all of the above , you know that the game is trying to explain to you why Lynch and Kane are unhappy people , but now we're feeling sorry for them , and tell me , is it right ? is it right to feel sorry for them ? ... I honnestly don't know ... because we've could have done the same if we were in their situation ...
Nevermind Kane has a huge scar and Lynch is schizophrenic , if we've had lived their lives , we probably would have done the same ...
Then again no , maybe if we were them , we never would have mess up in the first place , perhaps unlike Kane we know how to "deal with it" , and unlike Lynch we know how not to get attracted to killing sprees ...
Then again ... maybe a lot of other people just can't always do the right thing ... it isn't such a easy thing either to choose between your own personnal needs and what is best for all of us , must we be selfish and blame the world for our wrong doings or stay proud of our differences and reject the masses or just die now ... afterall this is a cruel world , if you can't find your happiness , or worst , if you've lost your happiness ... what else is there to do ? ...

I definitely agree with the last part here. It's a recurring theme in the game. Both these men, Kane & Lynch, have “lost their happiness” of sorts. Lynch lost his wife, Kane lost his family. I think that the point is that when you lose everything you care about, you become someone different. Kane is a prime example of this. I think whether or not you become a better or worse person is not always set in stone. Maybe some people become better people after a tragic loss, but in Kane & Lynch's case they became much worse off for it. I don't really fault them though, and I'll probably get a lot of flak for this, but I don't see Kane & Lynch as bad people. I think they have done bad things, and are probably beyond help, but they aren't bad people... more just broken people, amidst a whole lot of bad stuff.

Does Kane & Lynch need a sequel ? that's the question we have to ask because what else is there to tell ? ... The message of Dead Men was this : We've spent the last seven hours showing you these two men , violent , unstable , but deep down they are human beings like you and me , they've made mistakes and now they want to be forgiven , they kill people because they haven't got any other option to reach their goal , but the question is not "Will they ever find redemtion and be at peace with themselves ?" , but rather "Do they DESERVE redemption ?" ...
Can we ever forgive Lynch and Kane ? God didn't (but then again he moves in mysterious ways) , but what about us ? should we forgive them out of pity ? out of sympathy ? should we forgive them because we see alot of ourselves in them ? (or was it 'we see alot of them is us' , i don't know , i forgot) ...

Yes, Kane & Lynch needs a sequel more than ever... why? Because the story itself has a lot of holes in it and because of these holes we are forced to write page after page of speculation on what we THINK is the motive or rationalization for these guys. In terms of God... I think the end scene pretty much brings into question if there even is a gone. At the end of their journey, they subconsciously expect some kind of redemption or closure, but in the end they find only distorted blackness. Is this a metaphor for something? Maybe. As far as forgiveness goes, I think it's up to you whether or not you forgiveness is in the cards for them. I think the entire message of the game is that the forgiveness doesn't matter. Kane & Lynch are gonna do what they're gonna do regardless of redemption, forgiveness, or anything else... frankly because it's all they know how to do. I think even at their worst, they don't kill for pleasure. I think they kill because they are indifferent to it, and they see it as a means to an end. Do they deserve redemption? I don't think that's a question that you can really apply to this situation. I think the question is that even if they could find redemption, would they know how to take it? I think they are too far gone for that, and frankly if they did, we wouldn't have a sequel. I really don't want to see Lynch in a priest outfit knitting sweaters and preaching against violence. That would really make me upset as a fan.

I do often ask myself if indeed i'm not looking too much at things , finding meanings and questions in places where the original creator never intended to have (i'm still betting that IO is laughing at what i wrote)... but in any case Kane & Lynch : Dead Men did it , it made me question , it didn't exactly changed my life (well maybe it actually did , who knows ?) , but it did improved my view on things (no rest assured , i'm don't plan shooting up a mall ... and if i plan to , you're all invited) and most importantly it was the first game that ever made me want to look beyond the set pieces , the first game (yes , this is above all a Video Game)that made me think of the logic of action of these characters , not because what they did didn't made any sense , but rather "how is it that a man can do such things" ...
One of the 'magical' moments in this game is actually the decision you have to make in the chapter "Choice" ... this is the only time in the entire game where you have to make a decision that changes the outcome drastically ... but guess what ? it wasn't You the Player who was making a choice based on your own interest , it was Kane the character who was making one through you ... just look at it , what was the choices about ? either escape with Jenny leaving the others to die , or save the others and prove to Jenny you're not a traitor ... in both situations , the choice you will take will be based on which advantage Kane wants to gain , not You ... if you escape it's because Kane wants to get away with Jenny , if you go to the village it's because Kane wants to show his daughter that his father isn't a traitor/the worst person on earth , almost every game these days grants you the ability to make a 'decision' but none had this kind of impact , in the other games it was You the player who was making the decisions , in here , you're making a decision based on what is the more 'profitable' for Kane and not for you...
Simply put , (and before you start throwing rocks at me for completly omitting the so called 'gameplay issues') Kane & Lynch : Dead Men was a piece of "art" because it does things in total subtlety : the locations , the character drama , the symbolism , all that is there in the game for Us the player to see but it never Forces Us to see it ... this isn't one of those game who practically puts a big red arrow in front it saying "it's got color/drama so it's art !" , no , Dead Men blend itself into the mass market of video game shooters ... look at the trailers , look at all its intense non stop violence , then load up the game , listen to the music on the main menu , this game lets You see it for its own artistic merits , it never forces you to acknowledge the drama , it lets You see it for yourself , which is what a work of art is suppose to be , a subject that can allow us to reflect it on our own lives and experience …

Kane & Lynch never spoon feeds you, which is one of the reasons I like it. Even if it doesn't spoon feed you because the author never wrote anything to feed you with in the first place, it makes you think and contemplate a lot of what's going on. It never quite explains everything, and again, whether that be because they meant to do it that way or because the author was too drunk off heineken to fill in the gaps of the story: it's still a compelling story, and I enjoyed it. I think the problem is that the artistic elements alone were not enough to carry this game as much as the developers wanted it to. I think if they get the technical elements down, people will appreciate the artistic elements more. The problem is that you can have the best menu music in the world, but if you keep seeing empty servers and no patches... how is anyone supposed to appreciate that? A lot of people are no so artistically attuned as we would like, and unfortunately those people are paying customers, who in turn fund future Kane & Lynch projects. Is it fair? No. But it is what it is.

But then i find myself rather ... lonely ... when praising the game like this ...
What will people remember of Kane & Lynch : Dead Men ? will they remember it as the game that supposely got a journalist fired ? will they remember it as the game that wasn't on par with its other releases ? and what of the Story of Dead Men ? ... The highest praise the story got was from Gametrailers where they gave it a nine out of ten in the review and even nominated it for best story of 2007 , but why the high praises ? was it for the deep moral questionning of the characters or was it because it had lots of interesting action sequences tied up together with a revenge tale ? ... most of the people who enjoyed Kane & Lynch was because it made them feel like 'gangstas' , and not for the sake of the drama ... will Dead Men ever earn the merit it deserves ? in a century maybe ? like most artist from before , their work was only recognized when their bones went to dust ...
Then again it makes me laugh seeing all these people , both gamers and developers stating that "the day when video games will be recognized as a form of art is coming !" ... it makes me laugh because , well , Will they be able to tell from themselves what a work of art is or not ? ...
Or perhaps it is me who is just ... wrong ? what if i just have a odd taste in art and game ? you've seen which games i like and which i don't in that month old topic , you know i don't understand why critics gave high praises to that 'flamethrower not included crime game' calling it a "Oscar Caliber Script" , you know i don't understand why thousands of people says that the japanese dude (who created a character whose name makes us think of a male body part) is the greatest storyteller who ever stepped on earth ... you know i didn't like that game of the year of 2007 , the one with lots of big words like "capitalism" and "free market" and a absurd third act that no critic ever seem to complain ... or that other game of the year of 2007 , where most critics call its storyline "pure art" even though it had no story ... that one really took the cake ..

The truth of the matter is that like any piece of art, it's all in the eye of the beholder. If you enjoyed Kane & Lynch, and some reviewer didn't... does that make you wrong? Of course not. Art only has value because someone appreciates what they see. Of course there will be a lot of people that don't want any part of it, but that's just the nature of the beast. As it stands, Kane & Lynch is a compelling story that I recommend to all my friends. I think that Kane & Lynch 2 will be a unique opportunity for IOInteractive to make their characters more successful to a wider audience so that being a fan of Kane & Lynch isn't such a crazy notion anymore (which it sort of is now) – I empathize with the character of Kane, and I think that he's one of the best video game characters created in the last 2 years. There simply is no other character like him out there. Ultimately that's why Kane & Lynch is such a cult franchise, because it brings something unique to the table. In a sea of conformity and status quo, they brought something we've never seen to the table and I appreciate that fact and give them credit for it. All they need to do is get the technical aspects of the game down, and make it more technically sound and it'll be in the bag. I have high hopes for Kane & Lynch 2, and I am curious where they will take the storyline to. From what we know so far, I can already tell I'm going to like it.

[Dr Klowneus]

:eek:Ahhhh Wall of text:eek:

I have just a few concise points, which should really get to the heart of this game

Buddy Movie: This is the game equivalent of a buddy/road movie, it's 2 guy's on the run with allot of cool action scenes, probably best not to read too much into it


Anti-Anti Heroes: Kane and Lynch are not meant to be the uber tough guys who deep down are good, They are straight up despicable characters, they're at the end of their rope, they've messed up so bad in their life that they cant make things right again

[Falkenwut]

Reguarding the NPCs look alike:
I doubt the programmers are gonna spend too much time on NPC making. Think about it:
either Copy 1 body and let the PC multiply it a thousand times (particularly Yoko's club); or do a thousand different bodies. It would cost too much time and effort to make a variety of bodies. Plus Kane and lynch would take at least 35GB of hard-disk memory which is enethical seeing how short the game is.

I'm not saying that your point is far-fetched mind, but I doubt you would enjoy making individual NPC creation if you where in IOI's shoes.

[gnrGrievous]

DAMN IT KENT ! ...
If my mind wasn't so preoccupied these days i probably would have wrote the same that you just did , but now , you make my article look 'amateurish' , outrageous ! ...

Rant asside ...
*gives a thunder applause*

*eats a muffin*

Edit : After reading again what both you and i wrote , i'm starting to doubt if i'll ever play another game as deep as this one ... whether it be the next K&L or the next "crime simulator drama" game , i doubt they'll be as subtle , profound , and beautiful as Dead Men (even in the ugliest story you can find beauty in it , especially when it's well told) ...
Aaah well , Dead Men wouldn't be a masterpiece/one of a kind if we had a game like this every year , don't you think ? ...

[gnrGrievous]

Starting to remember a few things i wanted to discuss about :
-What is it that makes us human ?...
Both Lynch and Kane are as far as we know ,human beings (they're not engineered clones or angels/devils in disguise) ,but are still human ?... (they're capable killing countless of people without remorse ,is it because they're condemned to live a loveless life ?) but as far as the game doesn't offer a counter point (a non violent character for example) ,are we to believe that the flawed yet fundamental logic of Lynch and Kane is a necessity to maintain their/our 'identity' ?...
In short ,if we become as hopeless as these Dead Men ,by which act can we maintain our humanity ?...

-Learning to "Deal with it"...
Lynch sees Kane as a drama queen because of his inability to let go the hope of returning to a normal life ,they're both in too deep into this life of absurd violence ,Lynch never really complained about it ,but does this give him the right to criticize Kane being sentimental ?...

[Falkenwut]

From what I can tell from the characters:
Kane was a mercenary. He's headstrong in his work, he knows what needs to be done and how. (He knew how to approach the bank job, how to deal with Retomoto, and also how to convince his fallen mates to get the revenge HE saught)

Lynch however is inexperienced. He defenatly picked up a gun before in his life and is a bit experienced in hand-to-hand combat. But he could handle Kane's demands because of his schizophrenic nature (he killed the hostages and yoko)

NOTE: If you play Co-op as lynch, you'll see that lynch sees everyone as a police man and some of them having donkey heads, and coming back after they've been shot... You guys should note that out.

[Kent-45]

I empathize with Kane for several reasons, and a lot of people will go "How can you empathize with a traitor/killer/mercenary blah blah blah" - Kane is designed to be the worst person on earth. He is a man who has lost everything. I like the fact that he isn't afraid of what he should be afraid of, and what's he's really afraid of... doesn't really matter. He storms Retomoto's tower, he confronts forces that are stronger than him, and yet all he's really afraid of is not being forgiven by his family. (which doesn't matter because they're dead)

Kane doesn't strike me as a "bad guy" compared to The7 for this reason: Kane is a mercenary for practical reasons, and a lot of The7 seem to be mercenaries because they ENJOY it. Kane doesn't seem to enjoy killing, it's all just kind of a job to him. Kane indulges in revenge killing quite a bit, but never seems to posses that "glee" that The7 seem to have. These guys in The7 are clearly killers because they enjoy killing, and they enjoy what they do. Kane just treats it like a job.

I think in this society we find it slightly more palletable when someone kills for money, versus killing for pleasure. If you stood a mafia hitman who kills to keep the lights on, and a serial killer who butchers people because he gets off on it... who you gonna hate more? We empathize ever-so-slightly with the hitman, because in a way we understand his motives. We understand that keeping the lights on is important, wheras the serial killer who kills for pleasure... most of us don't empathize with that at all, in fact we condemn it. That's the distinction that Kane & Lynch draws here, in a way. I'm not saying that everyone in The7 are sadistic serial killers, but there is a distinction here that the game draws.

[gnrGrievous]

Interestingly , That is precisely why i empathize (and even sympathize) more with James Lynch ...
As you stated if Kane is the hitman who kills to keep the light on , Lynch is the butcher who kills for pleasure and yes i sympathize more with the latter , why ? Because if you can't be loved and lack a real 'reason' to live , might as well find a sense of 'happiness and enjoyment' to live on ,so ... a few dead cops a day to keep your adrenaline pumping is perhaps not such a bad idea...

Note this however , Lynch is not a cult extremist who kills in the name of god , nor is he a man who was born with the desire to kill , Lynch is the man who accepted the fact that he ****ed up his life and now has to fulfill his 'need to live' by partaking dangerous hit and runs , if Kane kills because it's his job , Lynch kills because he refuses to a) sit on a chair t'ill he reaches eighty and b) put a bullet in his brain now ...

Lynch has got nothing to loose , and this life is all he's got now ...

[Kent-45]

yeah you're right. I empathize with Lynch because he's kind of a victim in all this. I don't mean victim in the sense that he doesn't share responsibility for all that bad things that he's done, but a victim in the sense that Lynch is a stranger in Kane's world. Lynch is a stranger in all of this. He was an average factory manager before circumstances landed him in prison. He lost his wife, who he obviously loved and cared for very much.. and I think the fact that he hurt the only thing he ever cared about will torture him to no end.

Lynch was on death row too... so he had to be ready to die, and he made a deal with the devil (The7) to try and get another shot at some kind of life. He got screwed over, and what's worse, I think he honestly believed that The7 were going to give him Kane's seat at the table. Lynch is clearly a naieve person when it comes to Kane's world, he has a more normalized sense of morality than Kane does (When the escape van crashes after the bank level, Lynch goes "What about the rest of em?" - To which Kane replies coldly "Leave 'em, nothin we can do")

Lynch has a very normalized sense of morality in this way. It would never occur to him that someone like The7 would go back on a promise. He doesn't fully grasp the kind of people he's dealing with at all, and this makes him very much a stranger in Kane's world... almost an alien. Kane's men even look at him with disdain, because he's a "killer" - In Kane's world, killing for pleasure (or in Lynch's case, NOT killing for money) makes you a worse killer than what all of Kane's men have done in their lifetimes.

So in this way, Lynch doesn't quite fit into all this... and I can't lump all the guilt into his lap in the same way that you could argue Kane gets what he deserves for leaving them in Venezuela. Lynch is more the less a sort of victim to his aggressive conditions (and I don't call Lynch a psychopath - he may not feel remorse or guilt, but he is no more a psychopath than Kane could be defined as a psychopath.) and also in that way, Lynch just doesn't quite belong to this group of criminals that have clearly masterminded something and gotten a lot of people killed.

Lynch has no idea about Venezuela, and very limited tactical skill at the beginning of the game. He's not one of these guys, but that hasn't stopped him from playing along with them. I'm not saying Lynch is innocent, but Lynch is an example of probably what a lot of people would do if The7 came to your door and offered to make you a deal. Lynch is just lucky in that he hasn't been killed in all this, frankly.

If anything, we all have a little Lynch inside us.

[Falkenwut]

Interestingly , That is precisely why i empathize (and even sympathize) more with James Lynch ...
As you stated if Kane is the hitman who kills to keep the light on , Lynch is the butcher who kills for pleasure and yes i sympathize more with the latter , why ? Because if you can't be loved and lack a real 'reason' to live , might as well find a sense of 'happiness and enjoyment' to live on ,so ... a few dead cops a day to keep your adrenaline pumping is perhaps not such a bad idea...

Note this however , Lynch is not a cult extremist who kills in the name of god , nor is he a man who was born with the desire to kill , Lynch is the man who accepted the fact that he ****ed up his life and now has to fulfill his 'need to live' by partaking dangerous hit and runs , if Kane kills because it's his job , Lynch kills because he refuses to a) sit on a chair t'ill he reaches eighty and b) put a bullet in his brain now ...

Lynch has got nothing to loose , and this life is all he's got now ...

I'm sorry to say you got this all wrong. Lynch does NOT have a desire to kill people. Like I said before, Lynch hillucinated during the bank job. He thought everyone was a cop. some of which had donkey heads

Lynch is just a short tempered guy seeking the quickest way out. The7 offered him an escape but ofcourse, they used him to get to Kane's briefases.

EDIT: Unfortunately I cannot show you proof but if you play the split-screen co-op as lynch, you'll see what I mean.

EDIT: Just found something for proof http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRxPkiyo4OM Enjoy

[gnrGrievous]

Perhaps 'desire to kill people' wasn't the best choice of words ,but He does enjoy it nonetheless (the way he says "That was great ,we got away !" after the bank massacre and his response "I'm not" to Kane after he said "Everyone retires ,look at us ,we're way too old for this (violent life))"...

Lynch hates his hallucinations ,but that doesn't mean he hates killing people ...
Say that you're playing a game ... you keep building up your high score then all of a sudden the TV goes black , the game is still on but you're missing the action on screen , then when the TV starts working again you find yourself playing in the next level and you have no idea how the previous level ended , you didn't exactly loose your high score , but you missed a part of the game unfairly nonetheless ...
And that is what Lynch felt like after he hallucinated in the bank ...
An unfair sudden and brutal disconnection to the world ...

Lynch is a pretty much a 'child at heart' person if we think about it ...

[gnrGrievous]

He is inexperienced in this mercenary life...
He is always the one who causes trouble...
He is having too much fun...
He is a liar...
He is just like a lil boy in a (dead) men's world ,really (albeit a Lot more matured than a average 'lil boy')...

Some of his flashbacks in co-op is him making a short monologue on how everybody always looked down on him ... everyone but Annie...
It is already a surprise to me that he survived his four years in jail waiting for death row...
Maybe it was the deal with The7 that kept his sanity ? i don't know...
But the fact is he killed the only love of his life , why should he feel sorry for killing a few more innocent bystanders who won't stop running around or blow a spoiled brat's head off when she just won't "******* stay still" ?...

Does Lynch belong to Kane's world ? ... No ...
Is there any other world made for a broken man like him ? ... No ...
Can he survive in Kane's world ?... Absolutly (up to the point of being the only humane person) ...

[Falkenwut]

Some of his flashbacks in co-op is him making a short monologue on how everybody always looked down on him ... everyone but Annie...
It is already a surprise to me that he survived his four years in jail waiting for death row...
Maybe it was the deal with The7 that kept his sanity ? i don't know...
But the fact is he killed the only love of his life , why should he feel sorry for killing a few more innocent bystanders who won't stop running around or blow a spoiled brat's head off when she just won't "******* stay still" ?...


Like I mentioned before, Lynch was finding the best way out of death row. The7 offered it. And they gave him a position of grandure, to replace the high official kane was in the organisation.

Again, he is a short tempered fellow. He killed yoko out of patience if you ask me. He got pissed off that Kane didn't do as he originally planned, heck even I become testy if someone changed plans in the last second.

Obviously noone's gonna stay still as a hostage. She showed alot of hostility before kane even went down to meet Retomoto. So obviously, she was showing plans to try running away. Lynch himself felt unsure if he could keep her captive.

Plus put yourself in Lynch's shoes (assuming ur the same shoe-size :lmao:) imagine; you're ticked off that your target (Kane) is trying to negotiate a way out (with Retomoto) when your current boss (the7) told you to keep a close eye on him. you don't know what to do... Several quick decisions had to be made, PLUS holding a woman who can't just stay still...

plus it's not like she was effectively tied up. Kane must have been abit rusty in his tieing up skills. When she started running, Lynch decided to shoot her feet. I think I would have done the same. because:
1> She'll still be alive
2> She'll stay still

Was it a mishap? I'd say probably not. Or... Subconsciously not.
My point here is: Lynch isn't necessarily a killer, he's just put under a bucket-load of pressure and he's not built for the job to handle this. The7 probably chose him on purpose to screw up Kane's plan.

[gnrGrievous]

Precisely , James Lynch is what a broken man can become in today's society ... a psychotic killer ...

As for Yoko ... well nothing says she was running away in the first place , when Kane was starting to 'negotiate' with Retomoto , Lynch thought that this would compromise his future with The7 ,so ... he shot her leg...

Of course when The7 betrayed him and shot Adam's wife before he finished talking to her , Lynch was undoubtedly pissed off ... i mean just look at the way he lynched that guard , a genuine outburst made of regret ...

Apart the fact that he enjoyed the thrill of killing sprees ,Lynch assisted in Kane's revenge because he felt responsible for the death of Kane's wife (ironically ,Lynch is also responsible for Jenny's death ,though luckily for him Kane hasn't quite noticed it ... yet)...

It's all about the selfishness of these men that drives them deeper into the heart of darkness ,but can we blame them ? can we blame their selfishness even if it's all they have ?...

[Kent-45]

I was suprised how coldly Kane treated someone he supposedly had an affair with. It's implied through the game that the scars on Kane's face were some kind of punishment from Retomoto for Kane's ... shall we say... indiscretions with Yoko. Yes, it isn't outright stated but the game gives us the dots, and I think it's safe to say that that's what happened.

anyway, if Kane lost an eye over this girl... you'd think he'd be a little more concerned about her safety. Not to mention I can only question Kane's judgement, leaving her with Lynch. He already knows that he's prone to these little psychotic episodes, and he's gonna let him guard the hostages? Let one of the mercs he brings along watch the girl, and Lynch should have backed Kane up while he headed for the gazebo.

If only Kane had done this, he might have been able to make a deal with Retomoto and maybe his family wouldn't be dead. As far as I'm concerned, Kane may be a professional, but he really didn't think this prisoner exchange through. Most reasonable people, after seeing Lynch's previous behavior, would not leave a valuable hostage with him for any extended period of time.

just a thought.

[Falkenwut]

I was suprised how coldly Kane treated someone he supposedly had an affair with. It's implied through the game that the scars on Kane's face were some kind of punishment from Retomoto for Kane's ... shall we say... indiscretions with Yoko. Yes, it isn't outright stated but the game gives us the dots, and I think it's safe to say that that's what happened.

anyway, if Kane lost an eye over this girl... you'd think he'd be a little more concerned about her safety. Not to mention I can only question Kane's judgement, leaving her with Lynch. He already knows that he's prone to these little psychotic episodes, and he's gonna let him guard the hostages? Let one of the mercs he brings along watch the girl, and Lynch should have backed Kane up while he headed for the gazebo.

If only Kane had done this, he might have been able to make a deal with Retomoto and maybe his family wouldn't be dead. As far as I'm concerned, Kane may be a professional, but he really didn't think this prisoner exchange through. Most reasonable people, after seeing Lynch's previous behavior, would not leave a valuable hostage with him for any extended period of time.

just a thought.

Agreed on your final thought... could be Lynch was the best choice... The Japanese mercs he got with him couldn't be trusted.. MAYBE.. they were the7's henchmen who would SURELY compromise it on purpose.. or... could kill yoko to get money for the authorities... This section is too huge a debate to clear up over 1 forum or 1 game... I hope they mention something in K&L 2

Speaking of Reto-moto. I took a pic of his face when he died of the explosion.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t197/Falkenwut/Other%20pics/023.jpg?t=1258235547

Just for you guys to note it out...
EDIT: just noted the shadow of retomoto! Vampire chaaaiiirr!!! :lmao:

[Kent-45]

do I see order forms for bulk shipments of Hello Kitty sweaters on Retomoto's desk? methinks yes.

[gnrGrievous]

If Retomoto is indeed the devil as i suggested , then i too thinks yes ...

[Kent-45]

Retomoto is no devil. He's just a businessman. He got what he deserved though... if you're gonna cut a man like he did to Kane, you better make sure you kill him because if you let him live, he's bound to come back for revenge someday.

[gnrGrievous]

He's bald ...
He wears a classic black suit ...
He acts as a businessman ...
He uses an office as his front ...
His office is located at the top of the world ...
The only time we hear him speak is through a strange device (cellphone) ...

Retomoto is chinese for "Big rapping devil" (confirmed) ...

What more proof do you want ? ...

:D

[Falkenwut]

Retomoto is japanese.. not chinese.
Retomoto was the original group which formed IOI. (that's an easter egg i presume)

Retomoto may be a high official in business.. IF he's a devil.. at least he's an Oni (japanese demon)

As for the scar on his face, I'd presume it has something to do with Yoko.

[gnrGrievous]

Awe man , i was pretty damn sure he was chinese , the internet told me so ! ...

Seriously though , "Reto-moto" is the branch of IO that works solely on multiplayer content ...

So ... did the briefcases contained The Dope Bag ? or better , IO's MMORPG ?! ...

[gnrGrievous]

Dead Men is now three years old ! ...

Party time ! ...

*imaginary party here* ...

Anywya ...
If there is one reason why i'm glad Dog Days didn't get a score of 87 metacritic , it's that because of that , it didn't replaced Dead Men ... and it almost did ...

The amount of similarities between the plot of both games is huge , you would think that Dog Days is just Dead Men but with Lynch taking all the grief instead of Kane ...

Oh well , now we know that both games can still stand on its own ...

And i'm still up in the mood to dwelve into a discussion on religious element in Dead Men ... but since there's no one here ...

Ah screw that , i'll talk on my own ...

Religion and Greek Mythology references ...

Most if not all the major characters from Dead Men could be viewed as a modern representation of characters from the bible ...

The7 were the four horsemen of the apocalypse: Little Brother was Conquest , Older Brother was War , Carlos was Famine , and Mute was Death ...
Thapa Rific and Shelly were the Three Wise Men ...
Yoko was the whore of babylon ...
Retomoto was the devil himself ...
The dump truck was known as the 'Behemoth' from the game's achievements ...
Kane is Cain while Lynch is Jesus Christ ...
Meanwhile Kane's real name is Adam Marcus ...

(Which leaves the game's director , Jens Peter Kurup , as God ...
No arguments here ...)

So yeah , in a way you can say that Dead Men was really about Cain teaming up with Jesus Christ and shooting at people ! ...
(And people thought a plumber eating mushroom was wild ? ...)

Maybe that was indeed bit far fetched , but the fact that there is also this recurrent theme throughout the game about 'ascension and descent' ... you really just can't ignore it ...

Everytime Lynch and Kane reaches a high ground they end up progressing to a lower ground , and vice versa ...
From the bank's vault back to the main hall , from the highways down to the tunnel then back to the highway and then down again into the subway , from the noisy and somewhat of a bleak hell in the Mizuki up to the quiet and serene rooftops , from Retomoto Tower down to the streets , and this theme goes on throughout the game up until the very end , the choice Kane has to make : escape in the helicopter ? (movin' on up) or go to the village ? (the steps that goes down to the fire) ...
Not to mention that the very last chapter sees you fighting your way up the stairways of heaven to the hill where the Burning Church was located , and as fire consumes the church (and therefor , any hope for Kane's redemption) the dead men now has to run back down the hill and make it to the boats , they end up drifting in a pitch black river ... no where , neither hell nor heaven , as they keep moving up and down around the world the Dead Men just can't find any rest ... except in the middle ground , the endless void , the darkness of life ...


To some degree , if you don't fancy the bible all that much , then interpret it with greek mythology , it works too ...
For examples :
The boats drifts in the River Styx at the end as it is between the world of the living and the world of the dead ...
Carlos was Charon , leading the Dead Men to The7's hideout deep inside the heart of darkness ...
Thapa Rific and Shelly were the three judges of the Underworld as they continously juge Kane's acts both past and present: Thapa as Minos (Minos was killed with boiling water , Thapa was found in the prison's boiler room ... mighty coincidence i say) , Rific as Rhadamanthus , and Shelly as Aeacus ...

In relation to Dog Days , Plato wrote in the 'Gorgias' that "souls were judged after death and those who received punishment were sent to Tartarus" ... it is possible since the three judges , or Shelly at least , saw that Lynch and Kane's souls as evil/greedy or even somewhat impious , they are therefor sentenced to the the road of Tartarus ...
Tartarus is described as being a "deep, gloomy place, a pit, or an abyss used as a dungeon of torment and suffering that resides beneath the underworld."

This deep , gloomy pit ... was it not Shanghai ? ... was it not the dungeon of torment and suffering that punished Lynch and Kane in Dog Days ? ...


You know , we can continue wondering if this is not just a bunch of coincidences , and that there's no way when IO made Dead Men they thought of all that ...

But here we are , having a bunch of coincidences in our hands , and we try to make sense into it ...


This is indeed what i miss most about Dead Men , the fact that we can have multiple interpretations from one dramatic story , from the morals of the protagonist , down to connecting dots with religious and mythological references ... these are just things i can't see myself doing for Dog Days ...

Perhaps indeed , as a game , neither is exactly superior to the other ...
But if we are to look at the Symbolism Art and Drama ... well ... we'll always have Dead Men ...

We've got that much at least in this god forsaken world ...


Long Live the beauty ! ...
And Happy Three Years , Kane & Lynch: Dead Men ! ...

[jam13]

Insider#1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4mUL-iRW2A)

Jens Peter Kurup should be the game director for Kane & Lynch 3.
He knows how to tell the epic story of two bastards.

Game Director answers to the criticism of Kane & Lynch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk1rMAVRRuM)

[gnrGrievous]

Marvelous , i see that i'm not Jens' only fan out there ...

Have a seat ...

No but really , i just admire how he keeps on talking about the game , showing that he actually 'gives a damn' about it even a year after release ...

http://www.gamesradar.com/ps3/f/kane-lynch-how-it-feels-to-be-critically-panned/a-20080908102911734000/g-2007042417839414034

Of course it could all have been an 'act' ... ... but i honestly doubt it ...
The man knows what he's saying and what he wants his audience to see ... i mean just to look at his eyes ...

Man's a genius ...
He should have a skyscraper of his own ! ...

[jam13]

Kane & Lynch: Dead Men Co-op Gameplay (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=349MmE0xkOI&feature=related)

Jens is Legend . :)

[gnrGrievous]

HOOOOLY DEAD MEN ! That walkthrough was A Classic ! i knew it since the first time i saw it back in the days , i mean when he talks about how useful smoke grenades are on hard mode ? That Never Left My Thoughts ...

Seriously , the fact that he didn't get the chance to make a single statement for Dog Days is ... ... it's just wrong ! don't know how else to put it ...
Sure , he directed the trailers , but we want to know 'what' exactly did he thought of the game ...

Because in the meantime i'm going to interpret Kane's screaming and signs of disappointment in Dog Days' CG reveal trailer as what Jens felt of the project ... ... and who knows ? maybe isn't such an exaggeration ...

[Mercenary of The7]

Time sure flies....

Man, am I feeling old already.

[gnrGrievous]

*man hug* ...

[gnrGrievous]

My god i can't believe how logical this is ! ...

I mean it makes So Much Sense ! ...


You know why 'The7' is called as such ? ...
Why The7 wasn't called 'Blackjacks' or 'Dead Skull' or 'Secret Organization number 47' ? ...
What is the significance of the number seven ? ...

...

Quite simply ...

It was named after the seven gods who founded IO Interactive , all those years ago ...

No , really , there was seven guys who established the company , not five , not twelve , not one , but seven ...

And soon , they shall rule the world ! ...

[jam13]

x360a Special - Kane & Lynch Interview
(http://www.xbox360achievements.org/news/news-387-x360a-Special---Kane-&-Lynch-Interview.html)


MH:.......You get to see the world through Lynch’s eyes, and experience some of his little hallucinations, which is kind of fun to watch when your partner in crime suddenly goes nuts and starts killing civilians and insists that he was seeing something else.


This is why Dead Men co op mode has more fun than Dog Days .

x360a: Do you have any plans for Downloadable Content for the 360?

MH: We do actually- for all platforms.



Whaaaaaaaaaat !!!!! :eek:

So IO ever planned release DLC for PC ?????????