Security systems and the challenge on stealth

[Blade_hunter]

I think there isn't threads about that but I think we should have other complementary systems with the ones present in Deus Ex or somethings that fits more to our time.

In Deus Ex we have:

Automated cameras
Red laser barriers for alarms
Blue laser barriers for traps, doors and such things
Alarm switches witch are activated by NPCs when we are spotted.
Turrets
Robots witch are mobile turrets / sentries


Additional stuff:
-Standard style cameras, those cams are linked with security rooms with guards that react second what the camera shows on their screens or if they are neutralized in some ways
Those ones have different effects than simply sound the alarm, they even sometimes doesn't sound the alarm.
It depends what the security will do second what they are supposed to do second our actions

-Motion scanner, the motion scanner is a detector that detects moving things with a certain size, if we or something is moving during the passage of the scanner "wave" it sounds the alarm or activate something.
that means when the wave is scanning us, can't move during the scan, combined with a camera it will be a very destabilizing trap.

-Motion sensors, motion sensors requires to walk slowly, very slowly they can activate the alarm if we do some fast moves, those ones haven't any recognition, so they are only in rooms with no guards nearby.

-Trapped floor, some rooms can be equipped with that kind of traps but there is always weak points where we can walk or jump in.

-Trip wires; a classic but it only activate traps

-Electric fences, if we can climb on them or even open a hole through them it will be a cool addition when we penetrate in a base for example or a simple closed zone barred with a fence

I have other ideas in mind but I think this is a good start.

[Jerion]

Good thread. Additional traps, obstacles, security measures, and systems makes stealth & infiltration a lot more complex and interesting. :)

[Mezgrath]

What about copters ?? I love'em. Don't know if it can count as a security system though... but it makes you stealth.

[Jerion]

What about copters ?? I love'em. Don't know if it can count as a security system though... but it makes you stealth.

What, like roving searchlights mounted on choppers? It's a bit cliché but it works. :)

[Hertzila]

Many of the Blade_hunters detectors would need a human or a robot to verify that it is not a false alarm. For example, the motion detector (infrared sensor?) doesn't have anykind of recognition, so in some cases it should prompt a guard or a security bot to check it instead of outright setting off an alarm.

Also, I'd expect many ways to also foil many security systems, like different augmentations or special suits (an asbestos suit is enough to foil an infrared sensor according to Myth Busters). Something like the radar transparency in DX1.

[Blade_hunter]

Every automated security systems made for surveillance, detection and even traps are security systems in some ways.
I forgot to talk about "mined" grenades witch are traps in the game.
At least they have proximity sensors thermic sensors

Also don't forget a pop up of hidden security turrets or even the activation of them ;)
Of course they need to use alternate things like anything that activates the alarm in Deus Ex, the fact they doesn't activate always the alarm is a good idea too. it can add some stress while sneaking since the only way to see if motion sensors detects us is their diode.
The laser barriers in DX are the same kind of detectors (detectors who needs alternate things) as many of the detectors I suggested they activate the alarm or as you propose just send only some security to verify if there is an intruder even if I throw a crate through their scanners but they are detectors made for that purpose detecting suspicious things.
A thing that could be made is mute alarms, just alarms that alert the guards without making a big noise.
And yes using some suits as a mean to foil some of them is a good idea or even augmentations as jammers; if we have different detectors players have to think about how they can jam them.
there is a point that detectors with recognition aren't efficient enough for that job, the Deus Ex cameras have recognition, but if you are moving behind a crate, they doesn't detect you, a thing that motion sensors will sound the alarm if you move when your are at their detection range even behind a crate or even a Fire proximity suit.
since they detect movement the mean to jam them is a radar transparency though or even smoke if the detectors uses beams.

At least if there is standard visibility, infrared scanning and even sound scanning we can have some efficient security here.

At the beginning of the game the security systems will be more simple to pass, but if you combine 2 / 3 of them you have something really efficient.

A thing that could be great is the fact we can use special jammers for guards and other things
A sound dampener to hide the sounds we can emit
An invisibility suit
A radar transparency suit
A thermic camouflage or even anything that can hide our heat from sensors

[gamer0004]

I don't really think it is necessary to have more security systems in DX3, but they might be fun. But no traps please. This isn't Indiana Jones.

[Jerion]

I don't really think it is necessary to have more security systems in DX3, but they might be fun. But no traps please. This isn't Indiana Jones.

Just for that, There ought to be a trap that showers Adam with snakes. :p

[spm1138]

The Aliens Tech Manual has some really cool ideas for sensors.

Talking about motion detectors they describe commandos sneaking past them by moving slowly across their FOV. The sensor has a filter that misses this because otherwise wind blowing trees and garbage around would give false positives all the time.

That could be an interesting gameplay element. Like you can move when the wind blows or something.

The commandos get spotted because one of them fails to go emissions dark (he leaves an IFF sensor on) so maybe they could have like... active and passive electronics. An IR flashlight to go with your NV or ultrasound pings or something.

They could also have like... seismic sensors that get set off if you make any big impacts, drop anything heavy, knock stuff over, jump etc.

It'd be interesting if you could do stuff to render sensors ineffective too... like if they have infrared cams you could sneak next door and turn their sprinklers on or do stuff that produces lots of false positives (scare birds?) so the guards get bored of checking.

[gamer0004]

Just for that, There ought to be a trap that showers Adam with snakes. :p

Or a shower that EMPs you to death (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-_YcM9ic6M)

[Grimesy]

Cameras being monitored by guards, nice... Get by the cameras undetected, then eliminate the guard.
Now you can just run by the cameras to get that medpack you left back at the start of the level..., oh wait, never mind...

[Captain_Angelus]

It'd be interesting if you could do stuff to render sensors ineffective too... like if they have infrared cams you could sneak next door and turn their sprinklers on or do stuff that produces lots of false positives (scare birds?) so the guards get bored of checking.

Or possibly have them turn the sensors off entirely? In effect they do all the hard work for you, but the ammount of times that would happen in-game would be low (at the beginning of the game, it might only be rent-a-cops doing stupid stuff like that, getting less frequent as you progress in-game) to keep the balance. No point giving the player an easy ticket in all the time.

[Viktoria]

I don't really think it is necessary to have more security systems in DX3, but they might be fun. But no traps please. This isn't Indiana Jones.

I wouldn't mind more security systems (and guard dogs), its always a good challenge. I agree with you about the traps though - definitely a 'no thanks' from me.

[Blade_hunter]

Well what's the mined grenades and the blue laser barriers in the game ?

[Cmd_lupin]

just to add to the security systems list:

-Retinal scanner? although I recognize it would be dificult in a game like Deus Ex, to pass it without hacking it ( a hostage/human shield holding system would have to be implemented, something along the lines of XIII)

- card reading interfaces: Fallout 1 & 2 ( I don't know if Fallout 3 also has it), XIII ...

I'm sorry if someone has already posted any of these

[Blade_hunter]

Well this isn't security systems, just a kind of locks isn't it? but yes they aren't present as a locks in the missions or not at all in the case of the card reading locks
security systems are more things that is supposed to survey a zone without having soldiers or help them in some ways when the area is guarded with soldiers

But the ideas are good ;)

[IOOI]

Locks are part of the security system. They provide a physical barrier - meant to delay.
Here's something that I found. It could help figure out how to plan a security system (http://books.google.pt/books?id=jo5ANoqS2MMC&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=security+system+detection+delay+alarm&source=bl&ots=4_urUXl8GZ&sig=lAlp5gVxo5VyHRFWmzrbUEmDZd4&hl=pt-PT&ei=TaTnSu3gH5WhjAf9qMmuCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=security%20system%20detection%20delay%20alarm&f=false) regarding four main aspects - delay, detect, alert and respond.

[K^2]

Just for that, There ought to be a trap that showers Adam with snakes. :p
Snakes. Why does it have to be snakes.

Seeing how Adam is now all but immortal with his magick healing abilities, if EM doesn't counterbalance that with intricate security system puzzles, I'm going to be disappoint.

[Irate Iguana]

Well what's the mined grenades and the blue laser barriers in the game ?

The mines are a good idea as hastily set-up security such as the NSF did at Liberty Island. It doesn't make much sense for a corporate building.

[Blade_hunter]

Locks are part of the security system. They provide a physical barrier - meant to delay.
Here's something that I found. It could help figure out how to plan a security system (http://books.google.pt/books?id=jo5ANoqS2MMC&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=security+system+detection+delay+alarm&source=bl&ots=4_urUXl8GZ&sig=lAlp5gVxo5VyHRFWmzrbUEmDZd4&hl=pt-PT&ei=TaTnSu3gH5WhjAf9qMmuCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=security%20system%20detection%20delay%20alarm&f=false) regarding four main aspects - delay, detect, alert and respond.

Ok, I didn't thought about it, but thanks for the link BTW, I wanted to focus the thread much more on surveillance systems, but I think there is a right thing about having different kind of locks and I agree with the fact we have other security locks, Yes mines aren't things that fits as traps inside a corporate building, but at some entrance points like maintenance tunnels and such they fits perfectly, or if the building is guarded by terrorists that have captured the building, I think they will set up some traps to reinforce their own protection.

In the Versalife building we didn't have traps like mines because the building is guarded by its legitimate security but there is laser barriers at some places, and those are traps that sounds the alarm and alert the guards or activate some security systems such as turrets or bots.
Deus Ex sometimes proposed to challenge traps instead of other things, at least rare are the times we are forced to challenge them, this is much more a choice than other things.

[13LACK13ISHOP]

Let me think

Bouncing betties and laser tripwires like out of half-life
Retinal scanner
Voice scanners
Fingerprint scanners
Autobots
Gatlings and other turrets
Lasers
Auto and normal cameras
Dogs
Alarms
Fire alarms
Infrared detectors
Pressure plates
Locks n keys
Hidden passages
Basic traps like a gun with a wire that is wrapped around a trigger and attached to a door handle so when you open the door it fires
Keycards
Computers and passwords
Keypads and codes
Motion sensors
Electric fences
Electric wire wrapped around a door handle to zap you when you touch it
Electric cables like tripwires but zap you instead
Barbed wire
Ninjas that hide in crates and barrels and under beds that listen out for you or hidden campers
Weak floors that fall through
Metal detectors
False maps and layouts of buildings to confuse intruders.
Hidden buttons to activate doors
Phones to contact people like allies and cops
Patrol cars and other vehicles
Snipers
Bullet resistant glass
Searchlights
Lights that turn on when you enter a room(autolights)
Ya standard human chum on patrol (how could I forget?)
Vents that are small enough to fit through and conveniently placed so that the intuder can bypass everything (best idea so far)

[auric]

What form of securities are there?
How about having a Security Countermeasure Augmentation.

Cameras
- Destroy
- EMP
- Avoid
- Hack
- Computer

Laser
- EMP
- Avoid (jump / Duck)
- Computer
- Hack

In Splinter Cell, he got an EMP device on his gun.
The Mythbusters learn that u can bypass a laser with another, would be a good 2nd use for laser targeting light other than aiming.

Doors
- Key / Picklock
- Door Code / Hack
- Computer
- Destroy
- Computer

Turrets
- EMP
- Destroy
- Hack

Should we add more?

Electric Fence
Pressure Plates
Motion Sensor (Splinter Cell has these wall motion sensors, dunno if that's motion or audio actually)
Infra Red

[Blade_hunter]

I've made a similar thread before that is quite the same
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=97718

The lasers can also be bypassed by steam gases like fire extinguishers / pepper sprays
The turrets can also be avoided, and we can use a crate as shield and other kind of obstacles to be protected behind, there is also a dead zone where the turrets can't shoot us

some of those things are present in DX

[auric]

fire extinguishers & pep spray???
ur talking about the game or real life?

if the game, woah, didn't realise that's possible, lol

but in reality wouldn't tha trigger the laser?

[Blade_hunter]

The game of course, in real life you will just activate the alarm like you suppose ;)
The only correct mean is the one you proposed -> point a laser at the receptor and when you do that you can pass the said laser without activating the alarm

[auric]

Infra red sensors
being fully augmented, would that make u cold as metal or radiate heat from energy?
:)

[auric]

Ya, love to do that with laser targeters in the game.

Finally a new use for it. :D

[Blade_hunter]

In DX I always found those lasers weird if you want my opinion, because they never trigger anything if the guards of the place pass through them, even if it's an other NPC sometimes.
Only JC (yourself) and some objects (crates for example) can trigger them.
The NSF/MJ12 never triggered them when they pass through
but even in the first level when I free Gunther from his cell, he passed through the active laser barrier and never triggered anything, you hear the little bip when he go through but no alarm is activated.

An other thing is the laser system by itself, you see the beam emitters, but there is no receivers
But I think it's a part of the "game domain" again.

But in DX the pepper spray and the fire extinguishers are excellent tools to pass through those barriers
despite the fact it's unrealistic, it provided an other use for those items.

[auric]

lol.
reading ur other post, got some I was thinking about

especially the camera with guards watching. :D

[auric]

In DX I always found those lasers weird if you want my opinion, because they never trigger anything if the guards of the place pass through them, even if it's an other NPC sometimes.
Only JC (yourself) and some objects (crates for example) can trigger them.
The NSF/MJ12 never triggered them when they pass through
but even in the first level when I free Gunther from his cell, he passed through the active laser barrier and never triggered anything, you hear the little bip when he go through but no alarm is activated.

An other thing is the laser system by itself, you see the beam emitters, but there is no receivers
But I think it's a part of the "game domain" again.

But in DX the pepper spray and the fire extinguishers are excellent tools to pass through those barriers
despite the fact it's unrealistic, it provided an other use for those items.

I wish they improve the realism on the lasers. for 1 thing, make them invisible.
And that others can trigger them, hence make the AI aware of their own alarms.

Observing their reaction can hint the players to the invisible lasers.

However as shown in Splinter Cell, people can have some form of device that allows them to bypass their own lasers without triggering them. Had to sneak up behind them to pass the lasers safely. Ya u can grab them & pull them along but I try not to touch anyone in the game. No killing or KO.
:)

[Blade_hunter]

I wanted that since a while and the good thing is the fact they did that in TNM and it was pretty good.
I think the security systems in DX had a good challenge behind them but I think adding some fresh variety is good thing for the game

If the said guards have remote controllers or use a padlock/lock to deactivate the lasers just need to know the code / find a remote control device / key depending how they have to activate this.

Now I think if they made the lasers visible there might be a reason behind it, I don't know what is those reasons, perhaps a sort of warning, perhaps JC has an augmented vision to see them.
We can have a lot of reasons for unrealism in games even when they have some realism.
There is sometimes gameplay reasons / roleplay reasons for it.

I think we should be able to "ghost" the levels as well as doing a quasi complete carnage in (I mean killing every foe in the game, not going like a road roller)

After all sneaking behind a guard to pass a laser might be a good solution but we need to have guards that make pass through those lasers. if there is none of them, you have to find a way to deactivate them...

[auric]

What's TNM?

If the visible lasers are due to his augmentations, than the more reason not to be able to see it.
Another choice for the players to augment Adam. Replace ur eyes. Ahhh.
Reminds me of Naruto, lol

Which is 1 of the main choices of the 3rd Game.
To augment or not. I definately would like to try both ways. Ofcourse in the first game i'll aug up. :D

I like how in SC, we jump & hang on the walls when a guard is passing by. :D
Too bad FPS can't do that, lol

That's what I love about SC.
I haven't touch Double Agent onwards yet. Waiting for the 6th game if it'll ever come, so i can buy all 3 together.
Like how I bought the 1st 3 together. :)

[Blade_hunter]

FPS can do that, ;) FPS can do anything that 3rd person games can do about moves.
Floating guns can't do that, sure,
But body awareness can do everything that can be done in third person games.

I thought that mirror's edge was a sufficient demonstration of what I'm saying about that.

TNM it's the huge and great DX mod The Nameless Mod ;)

[Nyysjan]

Part of me hopes they'll remove one time use multitools and lockpicks, they never seemed very realistic despite technobabble was added to them, or, as i admit that unlimited uses of lockpicks and whatnot might make things either too easy, or give us huge amonts of unpickable door, come up with a better justification foe why they are usable only once.
Or maybe just make lockpicking and electronics purely skill based (either you got the skills, or you don't) and forget resource management part of that particular part of the game.

[auric]

Or do what Splinter Cell does

pick the lock urself.

[Nyysjan]

minigame might be fun, but also might get old fast, but it would be preferrable to constantly asking yourself why can nobody design a lockpick that works more than once (or one that will actually, you know, open the lock instead of needing 5 of the damn things).

[Blade_hunter]

In oblivion the lockpicks were resource based and used a minigame for it.
But I don't think that DX fans wants minigames like that.
In many threads people often said they doesn't want minigames at least minigames to perform an action like hacking, picking locks, and such things

In Deus Ex they made the lockpicks resource based as well as the multi tools because to make players thinking about their use.
When you play splinter cell or hitman, you don't have to think is this a good use of your lockpicks ?
You use it and the only thing that can play against you is the fact there is nearby guard that can see you mostly in Hitman since the stealth is LOS + disguise based, so when you are picking a lock you have to watch if there is NPCs that can be alerted by that kind of action.

In Deus Ex using the lockpicks as resources wasn't innocent IMO.
Sometimes unrealism is clearly wanted.

[auric]

Don't need to have a popup
just when u click on the door, just click the arrows while u listen for the click.
:)

[biofuel]

I think its awesome that when thinking of improvements and cool ideas for the new DX, people only refer to the original - nobody even seems to bother referencing Invisible War - its like it never existed!!! :D

[auric]

I think its awesome that when thinking of improvements and cool ideas for the new DX, people only refer to the original - nobody even seems to bother referencing Invisible War - its like it never existed!!! :D

Actually, the laser idea of Blade Hunter is the same as DX:IW's multiple laser types.
Doesn't mean he got the idea from that game though, lol

[biofuel]

that damn blade hunter

[Blade_hunter]

Dooh but the colored lasers came from the original game, that wasn't my idea.
In DX 1 blue lasers were for traps and reds for alarms.

[dragons_tongue]

on lasers security, there should be corridors and fields of moving, rotating invisible lasers that require careful movement to get past like one of the oceans eleven movies.

[Argent]

Nice thread. I also hope some good work is being put towards the stealth aspect of the game (moreso than Deus Ex I mean. Gotta try to add and improve!). Just the other day I was wondering about some possibilities of more augs which focus on stealth (other than cloak and the footsteps), or items or whatever, etc. For example, what crossed my mind was the idea for cleaner, quieter ways to break open glass (more like cut open or dissolve, pro-thief style) or even special usually-unbreakable glass which requires a certain item or aug to basically "bypass" stealthily, if you want to go that route. I know the whole "glass breaking" concept is perhaps too specific, but I think I got my point across.

Augs are cool to blow stuff up, parkour, do surveillance, hack stuff, etc, but I can only hope some solid creative hours are being put towards some more stealth-based items or mods. Although I usually didn't play through deus ex like this, the idea of an "in and out quietly before anyone notices" gameplay style is really appealing.

[Jami]

Originally posted by 13LACK13ISHOP
Weak floors that fall through

I hate it when that happens dammit! I think it's a cheap option for added annoyance.. which level is it in Dx1. I think it's in the sewers going to the airport. Throw EMP grenade, deactivate laser, walk forward happily, ArGh drop into the damn murky water!

Anyways, about copters. If the levels are so large as to necessitate chopper coverage then good, but with a DX1 style map size (And thats how the level size is going) then having a chopper on some patrol route would take the fun out of ground level stalking.

[gamer0004]

I hate it when that happens dammit! I think it's a cheap option for added annoyance.. which level is it in Dx1. I think it's in the sewers going to the airport. Throw EMP grenade, deactivate laser, walk forward happily, ArGh drop into the damn murky water!


There was plenty of time to move onto the next platform. Even the very first time I succeeded in reaching firm ground at the opposite side.

[LatwPIAT]

There was plenty of time to move onto the next platform. Even the very first time I succeeded in reaching firm ground at the opposite side.

Where? I never noticed that!

[Argent]

Where? I never noticed that!

I think he means the suspended platforms that are hanging above a pit of murkey water, with red lasers infront of it, (on your way to the airfield in the sewers). the first two platforms, if I remember right, get all shakey right when you jump on them and a second or two later they un-hinge which drops you down into the water, if you're not quick to jump. Its not a side-path or something where you really have a choice, so its pretty impossible to miss

[Blade_hunter]

In Deus Ex that sequence is quite skippable.
but personally that wasn't a proper trap this was more a mean to disallow people for going back.
When you fall you are just forced to swim there is no death or a room full of enemies / mutants waiting for you
That was a trap but with no bad consequences.

In Deus Ex most true traps are visible and I think the reason is the developers wanted that people to pass the trap find a solution to disable that trap or find a more secure path instead of being caught by surprise and avoid the frustration of the "killed by the damn script"

Stealth is based on strategy and playing with strategy there is a need to know some informations, if you play in a total ignorance, this isn't strategy, this is chance.
that's why DX used visible lasers and even the LAMs used titling lights to warn people that the LAM is armed, but the other grenades haven't that particularity because they aren't deadly, they can just make you loose some health or deplete your BE, but the fact they are sticked in a wall is a sufficient warning.

At least the firsts stealth games were quite strategy games, the top view is the same as games like command and conquer.
Wolfenstein 2D and the first metal gear used that top view.
The goal in stealth is using your talents of finding alternate paths and reflexes to pass a guard without being detected at the right moment.

I think the lasers should be invisible but we should see the bem emitters and the laser dot in walls, I think it's the best way to make them invisible but not too much since the warn factor is here
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/8398/invisiblelasers.jpg

[Cmd_lupin]

I think the lasers should be invisible but we should see the bem emitters and the laser dot in walls, I think it's the best way to make them invisible but not too much since the warn factor is here.
They could make them somewhere along the lines of Splinter Cell, where they are invisible to the human eye, but while using a special vision goggles (or a vision aug) someone can see the laser beams in all their greatness.

[Nyysjan]

No point in making the lasers invisible, just say the Adams shades are special ones that allow him to see the lasers (also give them a low light vision, i hated how i was blind half the time, even with the vision enchancement at 4, and had to use the flashlight aug that, realisticly, might have given me away).

[biofuel]

anything they can implement intelligently - violent gameplay is fairly low down this scale

[Caxal]

Satellite's would make an interesting security system. It would make the outdoors atmosphere feel a bit more intimidating, again, adding to the stealth necessity of the game. It would make indoor areas feel a bit more homely.

[K^2]

They could make them somewhere along the lines of Splinter Cell, where they are invisible to the human eye, but while using a special vision goggles (or a vision aug) someone can see the laser beams in all their greatness.
Which is the most ridiculous thing ever. You don't see the beam from a security laser, and goggles do zip. Even with strong intensity lasers in the lab, you only see the path of the beam in complete darkness because of specs of dust sparkling here and there in it.

Invisible War actually clarified this. It states that the beam itself is invisible, as it is supposed to be. But a holographic projection of the beam is placed on its path as a warning to prevent someone from accidentally walking through it.

[Cmd_lupin]

Which is the most ridiculous thing ever. You don't see the beam from a security laser, and goggles do zip. Even with strong intensity lasers in the lab, you only see the path of the beam in complete darkness because of specs of dust sparkling here and there in it.
I stand corrected.
But you would use a vision aug, isn't there a very cynical and completely twisted way of actually seeing them?

[auric]

Which is the most ridiculous thing ever. You don't see the beam from a security laser, and goggles do zip. Even with strong intensity lasers in the lab, you only see the path of the beam in complete darkness because of specs of dust sparkling here and there in it.

Invisible War actually clarified this. It states that the beam itself is invisible, as it is supposed to be. But a holographic projection of the beam is placed on its path as a warning to prevent someone from accidentally walking through it.

Now that is ridicules, why warn people when it was to prevent people from breaking an entry or out. :D

Anyway, I believe the SC game was out before the Mythbusters tested it but that doesn't matter, time for another sci-fi explanation for augmented eyes.

I prefer that the lasers in DX 3 to be invisible & we have to find ways to see it either through items or augmentation.
It'll defeat the point of making choices if its so easy that we can see them right away, no need to pluck & replace our eyes.

[Mezgrath]

I hope that lasers are not invisible.

[auric]

Adam meets an augmentation doctor, plucking his eyes out.

Doc: "Why are you doing that?"
Adam: "I want to see."

Doc: "You want to see, so you're removing your eyes?"
Adam: "Yes, huh No."

doctor laughing
Doc: "Relax I know what you mean."
:D

[Blade_hunter]

I don't know why people thinks always about augmentations to make the lasers visible when they are invisible, there is smoke that works very well even using an aerosol for it.
The picture shown displays a laser dot and the laser emitters should be visible because if there is no mean to see that lasers or if we are forced to have augs for it, the strategy factor is lost.
I think that's a sufficient warning to to show the lasers visibility
Now if people thinks that fully visible lasers is better ...

[auric]

The augs are for those who want to see lines before their eyes rather than dots. ;)
That's their choice, and others can do without it or get different eye augs.

[auric]

PS: When I suggested the laser to be invisible, does not mean there won't be the things u suggested, the red dots & all.

Was just refering to the lines being invisible.

And here's a possible explanation for an aug to see the lines.
the eyes detects the emitters & projects a hypothetical line of where the laser might be facing based on its angle.

The line will be out of sync if the player moves & will resync when they stop moving and move slowly

[K^2]

Now that is ridicules, why warn people when it was to prevent people from breaking an entry or out. :D
Same reason why houses and vehicles with alarms often have signs stating so.

A lot of these laser-trigger security systems were placed in public places. You don't want random people tripping an alarm, or worse, getting fried, because they were looking for a bathroom. Hence the hologram explanation in IW.

Yes, that does not make a lot of sense for secure location, but from perspective of gameplay, this is the best way to do it, so it's not a big deal.

I stand corrected.
But you would use a vision aug, isn't there a very cynical and completely twisted way of actually seeing them?
You have to interact with the beam in some way to detect it, but ways to interact with it can be quite subtle.
I don't know why people thinks always about augmentations to make the lasers visible when they are invisible, there is smoke that works very well even using an aerosol for it.
There are some security systems sensitive enough for most aerosols to trigger it. So you have to get creative with it. But yeah, basically, you want to place something in the path of the beam to scatter the light.

[ArcR]

I'm for invisible beams and all sorts of traps. It would make the game more immersive and fun for myself. However it would seem stressful and pointless to a lot of other people so I understand why EM wouldn't do it.

As to laser beams being used as tripwires in real life... stop watching so many movies. Hollywood really sold you on that one. :rolleyes:

[Jerion]

As to laser beams being used as tripwires in real life... stop watching so many movies. Hollywood really sold you on that one. :rolleyes:

Whenever I enter the general store down the road, a knee-high sensor detects my intrusion and sounds a brief alarm notifying the security personnel, who rush out to secure the area and my money as quickly and efficiently as possible.

[K^2]

As to laser beams being used as tripwires in real life... stop watching so many movies. Hollywood really sold you on that one. :rolleyes:
I've seen them in museums and banks plenty of times. Just because you can't see the beam, doesn't mean it's not there. If you look for beam emitters in such places, you will find them. Granted, it's not typically done the way it is done in Hollywood, nor used anywhere near as sparingly, but it is done in places where it works. A well calibrated laser trip-wire grid in a room with artificial lighting that's always on is ridiculously difficult to get around, and that's why I don't see it getting phased out any time soon.

Just as a point of interest, beam detectors are still used in Russian subway stations to allow people to exit but not enter. If a person tries to pass the wrong way, an automatic gate is shut and alarm sounds. Otherwise, it is just an arch you walk through. It is a far more elegant solution than a mechanical tourniquet, but because it has to work in natural light and because it uses ordinary light bulbs as emitters it is relatively easy to trick.

Most modern security systems will rely primarily on cameras with motion detection, though, just like cameras in Deus Ex. The only difference is that real ones don't typically scan the area. They remain pointed in the same direction. In addition there are usually sensors that detect opening of doors/windows as well as breaking of glass. Later was added to Invisible War, but former is missing from both titles. Would be nice to see some door alarms.

[Blade_hunter]

Deus Ex used lasers as trip wires but the traps weren't bombs that was much more the release of robots and pop up turrets
the mined LAMs were the only booby traps in the game except in the metro in battery park where the blue beams were made the TNT crates bowing up and kill everything in the metro if you haven't deal with the terrorists and free the hostages

[K^2]

There were laser beams that merely sounded alarms as well.

[Blade_hunter]

Yeah but those are red in DX

[K^2]

Yeah... I'm missing your point, I guess.

[JCpie]

What, like roving searchlights mounted on choppers? It's a bit cliché but it works. :)

lol well it is on the Deus Ex cover ^ ^

[auric]

You mean DX:IW

Splinter Cell had Copters too, mini ones if IIRC.

very annoying.

[Cmd_lupin]

You mean DX:IW

Splinter Cell had Copters too, mini ones if IIRC.
The original Deus eX cover (at least the game of the year version) did have helicopters.
Which Splinter Cell are you talking about? The first 3 only have Fisher's copywrited face.

[auric]

Wasn't refering to the cover in SC.
Just the fact that copters are annoying in the game.
:D

[Blade_hunter]

Yeah... I'm missing your point, I guess.

That's a bit my fault I should precise that I talked about those blue beams, because those ones were the tripwires in DX and that's the warning factor I talked about some above posts

The blues warned about traps, the reds about alarms

[Mezgrath]

That's a bit my fault I should precise that I talked about those blue beams, because those ones were the tripwires in DX and that's the warning factor I talked about some above posts

The blues warned about traps, the reds about alarms

As already said by others, that is exactly the reason I don't want laser to be invisible. Because they also serve as a warning. Not only for us (the player) but also for the enemy (in-game and irl).

[K^2]

With the new engine, EM can make beams more translucent, and perhaps staticky/flickery to make them a bit more difficult to spot, yet allow for differentiation between beam types.

[IOOI]

It seems no one cares about the guards. :p
What about their lives aren't they important?

Since there is a squad leader or even security booths/rooms from where it's all monitored, shouldn't there be things like radio check-in, health status monitoring, helmet cameras and satellite positioning systems (Caxal's post) (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1224955&postcount=37)? Of course they shouldn't be present in all places because the best protection isn't cheap and should be adapted accordingly to the importance of what's beeing held.

So lets see how to bypass them:

Radio check-in - Usually are scheduled or used when getting to a checkpoint. To bypass this, you would need to record the guard's voice or know any password in order to reply if you get the guard's radio or if you intercept the frequency used.


Health status monitoring - This is trickier because all sensors could be plugged into the guard's bodyarmour or into his mech augs and are always monitoring, so any change in the guard's heartbeat would alert security. It should be possible to bypass but I don't know how it should be done (I will leave this matter for the more 'enlightened' here).


Helmet cameras - to bypass this we would need to capture the signal transmited to the squad leader/security booth, record what is beeing seen by the camera and send back the looped record - in theory it should work since the guard has a pre-determined route to follow so it wouldn't be easily noticed).


Satellite positioning/surveillance system
Satellite's would make an interesting security system. It would make the outdoors atmosphere feel a bit more intimidating, again, adding to the stealth necessity of the game. It would make indoor areas feel a bit more homely.


With such systems it would be important to not kill your foe at first sight, even when using stealth. The best method would be making him unconscient or leaving him tied up in a isolated area.


Some of the options may seem far-fetched so I'm expecting someone with a little more knowledge and will to clarify them.

[Cmd_lupin]

Radio check-in - Usually are scheduled or used when getting to a checkpoint. To bypass this, you would need to record the guard's voice or know any password in order to reply if you get the guard's radio or if you intercept the frequency used.


Health status monitoring - This is trickier because all sensors could be plugged into the guard's bodyarmour or into his mech augs and are always monitoring, so any change in the guard's heartbeat would alert security. It should be possible to bypass but I don't know how it should be done (I will leave this matter for the more 'enlightened' here).


Helmet cameras - to bypass this we would need to capture the signal transmited to the squad leader/security booth, record what is beeing seen by the camera and send back the looped record - in theory it should work since the guard has a pre-determined route to follow so it wouldn't be easily noticed).


Satellite positioning/surveillance system





Here are my thoughts about that:

Radio check-in - This probably hasn't been confirmed yet, but I saw somewhere that there would be a social related aug. Probably one that can make you voice tone change to some specific ones. Perhaps this could be used to bypass radio chat? You would still need the correct password, but having your foes voices copied would be somewhat helpfull - to distract someone, by giving him orders to go somewhere else, etc..


Health status monitoring - Given that the tech would be wireless [otherwise it wouldn't be usefull at all, IMO] someone could, say, jam the signal and transmit a new signal composed by the "normal" health stats.
The health monitoring could also be used to determine if the monitored was in stress, by the most diverse reasons, and use this in his favor[only high trained officers could interpret such signals].


Helmet cameras - It would make some problems if the AI knew when someone was going on a route (by the cameras) but the radio chat was screaming about an attack. But since I doubt the AI in DX3 will be THAT good - it could probably work the way you stated originally.

[K^2]

This is cluttering AI way too much. You aren't going to be able to even note such details of guard behavior in DX unless you are playing co-op with 3-4 other people.

[auric]

Metal Detectors
Did anyone mentioned this?

Stripping nude won't help the player if they are augmented in any way.
:D

[auric]

Magnetic Augmentation
"Use the magnet Adam."

Grab nearby metalic objects

Can magnet help with any form of security?

[Hertzila]

Not really. Only things magnets are good at are wiping hard-drives and old credit cards with magnetic stripes clean of any data without leaving a mark on them.
At least I can't come up with anything else a magnet does that a good bullet or punch doesn't.

E: Or perhaps they could be used to jam different electronic devices but I'm not so sure of that. You'd have to be very close to them and an item would propably fit better. And it would still be better to just shoot the damn thing if it's not important that they know you were there.
Couple that with the possibility that it would interfere with Adams own electronic augs. An item would do better.

[Blade_hunter]

If you have a microwave emitting device, you can disable every electronic devices

[IOOI]

This is cluttering AI way too much. You aren't going to be able to even note such details of guard behavior in DX unless you are playing co-op with 3-4 other people.

Is it to much CPU intensive? Isn't it possible to adapt the AI to the scenario?

What about combining some of the systems:

Rc -> This the basic and allows the squad leader to contact every unit.
SP+Rc -> Allows the squad leader to know the position and contact every unit.
HC+Rc -> Allows the squad leader to receive real time image and contact every unit.
HC+SP+Rc -> Allows the squad leader to receive real time image, know the position of every unit and contact them.
SP+Rc+HSM -> Allows the squad leader to know the position of every unit, contact them and know their health condition.
HC+Rc+HSM -> Allows the squad leader to receive real time image from every unit, contact them and know their health condition.
SP+HC+Rc+HSM -> All systems combined.

What is the most useful combination we could expect here?

[auric]

Not really. Only things magnets are good at are wiping hard-drives and old credit cards with magnetic stripes clean of any data without leaving a mark on them.
At least I can't come up with anything else a magnet does that a good bullet or punch doesn't.

E: Or perhaps they could be used to jam different electronic devices but I'm not so sure of that. You'd have to be very close to them and an item would propably fit better. And it would still be better to just shoot the damn thing if it's not important that they know you were there.
Couple that with the possibility that it would interfere with Adams own electronic augs. An item would do better.

Was watching Transformers again & it reminded me how they disarm a bunch of people via a magnet.

Won't help much against structural security, but may help disarm security guards. :D

must move up close. Disarm than smack the head HtH

[Arkyle]

why not make available old ways of bypassing security?

like calling setting something on fire and calling the building security to make them go away their watch posts, or sticking a polaroid photo to a camera that does not move... or just blowing up the electric boxes getting all energy of an area out. ( no electricity, no high tech going on...)

would be a nice and funny 80s wink.... ( remember the A team? xDDD)


and also a way to send the message that sometimes, despite all technology, the old ways keep being better.

[gamer0004]

why not make available old ways of bypassing security?

like calling setting something on fire and calling the building security to make them go away their watch posts, or sticking a polaroid photo to a camera that does not move... or just blowing up the electric boxes getting all energy of an area out. ( no electricity, no high tech going on...)

would be a nice and funny 80s wink.... ( remember the A team? xDDD)


and also a way to send the message that sometimes, despite all technology, the old ways keep being better.

Most companies have proper plans for those scenarios... And back up generators would thwart the other idea.

[Arkyle]

i suppose, of course.

but it will be fun to watch them while the character says "bunch of noobs" xDD