View Full Version : The Ancient Foward Lean Technique
darkmagicasorseer
08-08-2009, 09:27 AM
Hey guys, do you guys know about the "forward lean" technique? It is one of the most powerful and ancient technique use by "Garrett" to knockout (blackjacking) from the front (for those who don't know anything about it). Why I called it ancient because it is only present on the first two thief games and it has been removed in thief deadly shadows.
It is a useful ability, besides allowing Garrett to knockout enemies from the front, it also allows him to survey from high vantage points, and also to loot items or opening doors without stepping or walking which could cause more noise.
It also makes the game much more "easier" in the hands of a pro.
ToMegaTherion
08-08-2009, 10:54 AM
Weakening of blackjacking powers was one of the few times I thought that Deadly Shadows made a change that was unquestionably superior.
Other than that, being able to lean forwards is a pleasant feature.
Platinumoxicity
08-08-2009, 11:58 AM
I always thought that the "leaning forward" -function was Garrett using 4x4 when moving up a steep slope since it made it considerably easier. It was never meant to be the kind of leaning that the left/right leaning was.
PJMaybe
08-08-2009, 12:02 PM
Blackjacking from the front is questionable in itself in my opinion. However, the forward lean function is a must for T4. I cannot understand why they took out (yet another) good feature of the originals for TDS. I don't know if they couldn't implement any leaning or they just didn't want to but who ever made the decision should have jerk tattooed on his head.
I found forward lean useful mostly for leaning over ledges to see below and leaning forward to grab loot, pick pockets and pick locks. And I used it a lot.
This just goes back to the need for restored and improved leaning. Also, being able to look straight up, even when firing a bow. It's been said it's unrealistic to fire a bow straight up, yet it really can be done with a change in posture. Anyway, true leaning, no sidestepping or shifting of the player character's position would be very welcome, and so would being able to lean forward and look over into spaces without moving the player character's position. The more EM can get us applauding all these kinds of things, the more we will respect their overall effort.
darkmagicasorseer
08-09-2009, 07:04 AM
I always thought that the "leaning forward" -function was Garrett using 4x4 when moving up a steep slope since it made it considerably easier. It was never meant to be the kind of leaning that the left/right leaning was.
Yeah, I only know the move only when I have viewed some walk through videos on you tube. :D
Uh... I use it often to look into things and over edges, frob something from a greater distance, or drop something down below from odd locations. It's natural and it is just like side-leaning with an added twist. Strange.
TheEye
08-09-2009, 08:18 AM
"easier at the" blah blah blah
pure whining! the game is easy enough as it is! it should be made harder! if you can't play that's your problem!
Hamadriyad
08-09-2009, 08:45 AM
"easier at the" blah blah blah
pure whining! the game is easy enough as it is! it should be made harder! if you can't play that's your problem!
This is not the wwhole point, this is one of dark's points. Read the post right. And yes, lean forward was great. I want it back. It was useful.
CerraMorgan
08-10-2009, 04:40 AM
Yes, I definitely missed the leaning abilities in TDS. I use leaning (in all directions) a lot in the other games, and being able to lean forward is particularly useful.
I didn't feel that it made things necessarily easier, but it was definitely more realistic for me, and has been very useful in situations where I would otherwise have blackjacked an AI, so it helps with ghosting.
Does anyone else get into the game so much they find they are actually leaning in their chair, unconsciously mimicking the action on the screen? :hmm:
Yes, bring back leaning! Without losing your balance and falling off ledges. One improvement I would like to see - being able to see readables while leaning. I never understood why frobbing a readable never worked properly when leaning.
ToMegaTherion
08-10-2009, 05:16 AM
I managed to play Thief happily for a long time without ever using forward lean, so it doesn't seem like too big a deal. On the other hand, why not have it?
Proper sideways leaning is many times more important, though.
Gillie
08-10-2009, 05:28 AM
I liked the lean in the game. I have been playng a little of TDS again and find it missing.
Especially hard to reach loot lean and reaching it without being seen and as someone says leaning forward to read readables.
Good also for hiding by a wall and leaning forward to see where the gaurds and enemies are in the next street semi dark though good. :cool:
...Does anyone else get into the game so much they find they are actually leaning in their chair, unconsciously mimicking the action on the screen? :hmm:...busted :o
Gillie
08-10-2009, 06:20 AM
Does anyone else get into the game so much they find they are actually leaning in their chair, unconsciously mimicking the action on the screen? :hmm:
Yes missed that one Busted also.:o Plus some. :lol:
I occasionally lean in the chair to see round corners without making Garrett lean as well :o
13LACK13ISHOP
08-10-2009, 03:38 PM
Hell yeah we need lean forward back. Also it lets us listen to whats on the other side of the door.
Hahaha! I watched a guy playing Thief for the first time. He was so immersed he would peek around the monitor as he moved Garrett slowly around a corner. It was so funny to watch. It was plain to see he was looking through the "window" of his monitor into that world and needing a broader view.
I find that if I play with headphones (not always an option, unfortunately), I vocalize a lot more. Yelps and grunts and gasps. Kinda embarrassing if anybody else is around, but I get to chuckle at myself. :lmao:
CerraMorgan
08-10-2009, 03:46 PM
I occasionally lean in the chair to see round corners without making Garrett lean as well :o
:lmao: Me too! And then I wonder why it's not working... :p
Blue Sky
08-15-2009, 08:51 AM
I can't remember ever using the lean forward when playing Thief :confused:
Now I'll have to play them all over again :(
ZylonBane
08-15-2009, 09:39 AM
I almost never use forward leaning. 99% of the time if I want to look over a ledge, I just turn sideways and use the left or right lean to peak over the edge. Somehow, this feels more realistic... like Garrett is being careful not to go tumbling headfirst to his death.
The forward lean is a nice little extra, but its absence wouldn't diminish the gameplay in any significant way.
PJMaybe
08-15-2009, 02:17 PM
I just turn sideways and use the left or right lean to peak over the edge.
Try that in TDS and you wouldn't get far...
ZylonBane
08-15-2009, 04:42 PM
Try that in TDS and you wouldn't get far...
Actually I'd get really, really far.
I like forward lean a lot, and missed it in TDS. It added to the overall sense of freedom in T1/T2. The only thing I don't like about it is the cheat technique with the blackjack.
Oh yeah. That. I forgot about it, since that's not the first thing that comes to mind for me with leaning, but yeah, ditch that cheat. :)
darkmagicasorseer
08-21-2009, 03:09 AM
blackjack from the front is a cheat? discuss...
Actually it's using a cheat from T1/G/2 where having your feet in dark shadow keeps you invisible when you lean forward into the light. As long as your feet are in darkness, the rest of you stays at the level of visibility, so then you can blackjack an AI from the front (or any angle really) and they won't see it coming, even if they really should.
an alternative is to rush them head on starting from shadow and going into light then blackjack them from the front before they have time to react, it takes them a short time to react to your presence and if you are quick enough you can do it, I always think of the reaction delay as them being startled
darkmagicasorseer
08-23-2009, 08:30 AM
an alternative is to rush them head on starting from shadow and going into light then blackjack them from the front before they have time to react, it takes them a short time to react to your presence and if you are quick enough you can do it, I always think of the reaction delay as them being startled
It works with the ancient Airborne Knockout Technique(TM)! It works on tile floors and from the front. Have to practice thou, not practical for noobs, but would not scratch the honor of a pro player.
yep ready your blackjack (sadly wont work in TDS) and rush them like something demented, the AI needs to be completely unalerted before you start your run and they need to be pretty close, some AI have their hearing, speed and sight ramped up well above normal and this technique will only serve to embarrass the player when they find such an AI
oh and when you strike ... don't miss
Davehall380
08-24-2009, 03:23 AM
After you have battered a guard enough that he decides to bottle it and run, im pretty sure that they could be blackjacked unconscious despite the fact that they were aware of you. Or it would kill them. Strange.
if you battered them enough for them to run, then their hitpoints would be at a critical level and usually one more wallop would kill them regardless of their awareness of you
Davehall380
08-24-2009, 03:53 AM
true, but im sure that once they had calmed down they would just stand there (after you had disappeared for a while), and if you walked up behind them and smacked them on the bonce they would collapse unharmed, but if they were aware they would die (low hit points). Its almost as if they are throwing there head at your blackjack once aware to cause more pain. Strange
I'm not 100% sure but I think the way it works, in TMA at least, is like this
if you hit an unaware blackjackable AI then the act/react system issues a knockout stimulus first, the AI being unaware reacts to this by putting itself in a knocked out state
if the AI is aware of you it ignores the knockout stimulus and reacts to the next stimulus the blackjack sends which is a bashstim which does one hitpoint of damage
so if your target AI is down to one hitpoint and runs away, you chase it, catch it and hit it while it is still aware of you or you make it aware of you again and then hit it, it will die
if it manages to forget you and you blackjack it without making it aware again then it becomes unconcious because the knockout stim is processed first in the list
well thats how I think it works based on this picture from dromed (bjstims.png (http://www.boxtechnic.com/thief/bjstims.png))
I haven't really got into the act/react system properly so if any more experienced dromeders want to chip in with the correct answer then please go ahead
Davehall380
08-24-2009, 05:41 AM
That actually makes alot of sense. I cant confess to having a great knowledge of the more complicated aspects of DromEd (I still get confused between convict and gen scripts), but what you have listed there seems logical enough.
Secondary
08-25-2009, 03:51 PM
im sure a host of new movements and leans will be implemented, EM says theyre getti gthe best talent to make the most exciting game on the market, and if thats true than they must be doing something to remedy the clunkiness of movement in TDS, Garrett needs to be a bit more...ambulant
We can be confident they know our greatest complaints, so I hope they can address those issues. Who knows what problems they will struggle against, or be able to implement with little pain and effort, using their freshly-hacked new engine and editors will bring? :p
ZylonBane
08-25-2009, 06:46 PM
im sure a host of new movements and leans will be implemented
I'm sure that would be incredibly dumb. Ever played the original System Shock? That had a far more flexible movement system than Thief... and it commercially flopped because the interface was TOO COMPLICATED. The classic Thief games had exactly what they needed with regards to movement controls. Anything more would be pointlessly complex.
Ikana
08-25-2009, 10:35 PM
I always thought that the "leaning forward" -function was Garrett using 4x4 when moving up a steep slope since it made it considerably easier. It was never meant to be the kind of leaning that the left/right leaning was.
Are you saying it meant Garrett crawling up stairs on all 4s?
:lmao:
I used to do that all the time in real life, and I still do if nobodies looking..
Lean forward was used quite often by me, and I would enjoy it's return in Thief 4..
darkmagicasorseer
08-28-2009, 06:40 AM
crawling like a cat?
D3m' 666
08-28-2009, 07:29 AM
playing any game without the forward lean function seem a little too much like takin a wizz without lookin down to aim at the toilet to me :D
darkmagicasorseer
09-06-2009, 03:59 AM
playing any game without the forward lean function seem a little too much like takin a wizz without lookin down to aim at the toilet to me :D
Which cause inappropriate miss fire, and lots of casualties. :D
Platinumoxicity
09-06-2009, 04:02 AM
Are you saying it meant Garrett crawling up stairs on all 4s?
:lmao:
I used to do that all the time in real life, and I still do if nobodies looking...
No, I mean the red slippery roof tiles in TDP. :D You can climb them if you lean forward.
s guy
01-25-2010, 08:38 AM
I find that if I play with headphones (not always an option, unfortunately), I vocalize a lot more. Yelps and grunts and gasps. Kinda embarrassing if anybody else is around, but I get to chuckle at myself. :lmao:
Same. With headphones, it feels like you're in your own private thief world.:o
Flashart
01-25-2010, 09:24 AM
In theory blackjacking from the front would be possible if you were in the dark (not just your feet), but if it's too easy to exploit then I'd be happy to lose it.
Are we saying Garrett should, Run Walk Crouch, or Run Walk Crouch Crawl? I liked the wall flatten in TDS but it shouldn't make you invisible, and I've mentioned elsewhere I like the idea of a "Go Prone" sort of "Floor Flatten" mode where you could inch along. Granted, you could move at the same speed crouched, but I think you could have some interesting game design, with lower shadows or smaller crawl spaces (under beds, in long grass etc)
Don't know enough about how the human brain works to know why you are knocked out and if the area of impact is relevant to loss of conciousness but an up front hit in thief should probably just result in the guard staggering backwards holding his face or forehead and yell for help after a second or two.
The wall hug should not be implemented if it means the clunky animations and need to hug and unhug as it was in TDS.
And lean forward? Should definitely be brought back in thief 4.
Ohh by the way. Off topic but: On the facebook group for the upcoming game the title is written: Thief 4 and not thi4f. Might be a sliver oh hope =)
Oon Kuka Oon
01-25-2010, 11:45 AM
It is nearest reality that you can KO opponents hitting any point of head. But if they see you, they know that you're going to knock them out, and have time to prepare, and the hit won't knock them out.
It is nearest reality that you can KO opponents hitting any point of head. But if they see you, they know that you're going to knock them out, and have time to prepare, and the hit won't knock them out.
Well, being prepared will not keep you concious if you are hit in the head.
What we're not seeing is the AI rolling with the hit, or jerking away from the weapon and reducing the blow, turning a stronger part of armor and/or less vulnerable area of the skull to take the hit, and other reflexive movements. The numbers make up for what a person would do, but there are never enough animations to show.
Oon Kuka Oon
01-25-2010, 01:12 PM
There already are enemies that have protecting helmet, and they reacted to the hit from blackjack- if that's possible, couldn't some maneuvre to weaken the blow be possible?
A lot of things are very possible in and of themselves, it's within the context of everything it takes to make a game, let alone, the basics of a Thief game, that many of those things will not be done. At this time, with no idea what T4 is shaping up to be, and with animators only now being hired and no sign of motion-capture, I'm just hoping they will get the basic moves at least as good as the older titles. What the mind can imagine effortlessly can be quite a chore to simulate with code.
Pyronox
01-26-2010, 03:07 PM
:lmao: Me too! And then I wonder why it's not working... :p
See, this is why I tell people project Natal will be useful.
Plus whatever Xbox hardware you have can be used w/ PC as well.
I am NOT playing thief with a Natal control system !
no taffin way
Hypevosa
01-26-2010, 10:28 PM
I thought you were a computer person anyways esme?
I personally would love to use natal - actually probe for secret switches and buttons, page through books, kosh a guard - I think it would be more fun for me personally, though I definitely understand where keyboard users would have a huge advantage through selecting something instantly using a button, rather than actually sifting through a key ring...
Personally, I think walking in place is not fun. Head-tracking I'm more interested in, but as an experiment, not an actual Thief game controller the game is made for.
I am a computer person, I am also unfit
where now my playstyle is a matter of choice with Natal my physical limitations would affect my playstyle .. oh I'm not going to crouch here, my legs won't take it, oh crap they spotted me because I wasn't crouched, better kill them all
Garrett is extremely fit and extremely agile, I am neither I doubt Natal could bridge the gap
if I want to exercise I'll open the door and go outside
that said I'd love to see someone do the mime for a running jump across a gap to a mantle and pull up
Hypevosa
01-27-2010, 08:16 AM
there is the possibility that one could use both a controller and natal at the same time? this would allow quick access, easy movement (sticks as opposed to walking in place) and allow the player to do what they want with the physical mimes. I think for FPS the movement would be the main problem - but that might also be where voice recognition would come in on the natal, giving commands where it would be harder to mime the action. "run forward.... jump!"
Unless they package an omnidirectional treadmill with it, natal would need some better system than move your feet up and down for the franticness of FPS
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